Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt

Evangelical pastors are helping to create a terrible new campaign of violence against young Nigerians. Children and babies branded as evil are being abused, abandoned and even murdered while the preachers make money out of the fear of their parents and their communities

The rainy season is over and the Niger Delta is lush and humid. This southern edge of West Africa, where Nigeria's wealth pumps out of oil and gas fields to bypass millions of its poorest people, is a restless place. In the small delta state of Akwa Ibom, the tension and the poverty has delivered an opportunity for a new and terrible phenomenon that is leading to the abuse and the murder of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children. And it is being done in the name of Christianity.

Link and rest of story (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html)

Will this Atheist hate-mongering never end?

How many more innocent Christians in Colorado must die before you are satisfied, Blob?

It seems to me that many african nations prefer to kill/main/abuse based on "religion" than anywhere else in the world. Nigerian "Christians", Sudaneese "Muslims", etc.

My personal favorite is the female genital mutilation that occurs in many parts of africa.:rolleyes:

Sad commentary on many of the societies in this region of the world.

Will this Atheist hate-mongering never end?Care to comment on any of my threads criticising atheists (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?t=32973), sedan?

How many more innocent Christians in Colorado must die before you are satisfied, Blob?It's not my fault one of their own congregation got kicked out and then turned his gun on the rest, or that Nigerian Christians are abusing and murdering their own children. I wonder how many more Christians will kill other Christians before God is satisfied.

It seems to me that many african nations prefer to kill/main/abuse based on "religion" than anywhere else in the world. Nigerian "Christians", Sudaneese "Muslims", etc.

My personal favorite is the female genital mutilation that occurs in many parts of africa.:rolleyes:

Sad commentary on many of the societies in this region of the world.I actually don't think it's culture or religion. It's poverty and the harshness of life that breeds such ignorance and abuse.

Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt

Evangelical pastors are helping to create a terrible new campaign of violence against young Nigerians. Children and babies branded as evil are being abused, abandoned and even murdered while the preachers make money out of the fear of their parents and their communities

The rainy season is over and the Niger Delta is lush and humid. This southern edge of West Africa, where Nigeria's wealth pumps out of oil and gas fields to bypass millions of its poorest people, is a restless place. In the small delta state of Akwa Ibom, the tension and the poverty has delivered an opportunity for a new and terrible phenomenon that is leading to the abuse and the murder of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children. And it is being done in the name of Christianity.

Link and rest of story (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html)


You dont honestly think these people are Christians who do this???

Just because they say they are doesn't mean jack. Actions speak louder then words my friend.

You dont honestly think these people are Christians who do this???I'm afraid they are however uncomfortable that makes you feel.

Just because they say they are doesn't mean jack. Actions speak louder then words my friend.And Angus is no scotsman.

I'm afraid they are however uncomfortable that makes you feel.

And Angus is no scotsman.

Why are they then?

Why are they then?The same reason anyone is a Christian - they accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour.

The same reason anyone is a Christian - they accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour.


That's always a good start.

You dont honestly think these people are Christians who do this???

Just because they say they are doesn't mean jack. Actions speak louder then words my friend.By this do you mean that a "Christian" should be recognized and called such based only on some set of active standards of living, and not on the basis of profession?

By this do you mean that a "Christian" should be recognized and called such based only on some set of active standards of living, and not on the basis of profession?


I'm saying that we can't judge someone else's heart. I can say a lot of things but it could all be BS. Only God knows if someone is truly saved. Everyone is capable of speaking the words...I accept Jesus. How are we to know if they really mean it.

I'm saying that we can't judge someone else's heart. I can say a lot of things but it could all be BS. Only God knows if someone is truly saved. Everyone is capable of speaking the words...I accept Jesus. How are we to know if they really mean it.Okay, but within a larger context of recognizing the impact of religion on a given community/culture, isn't it useful to say that, for example, "Christians in the US are a worldwide leader in charitable contributions," or some such.

I can easily imagine people taking certain Biblical passages as justifying child abuse and even killing of "disobedient children," etc. We "Christians" should be responsible for this outrage, I feel.

shouldn't this be in world news?

The same reason anyone is a Christian - they accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour.
heresy and blasphemy don't exactly qualify.

I'm afraid they are however uncomfortable that makes you feel.

While they may claim to be, while eliminating the child "witches" that they seem to be infested with, that does not mean that they are part and parcel of the standard Christian faith. It would be tha same as saying all English people (and all doctors) are represented by Harold Shipman. It's intellectually disingenuous to categorize this way, and frankly I'm surprised that you have.

While they may claim to be, while eliminating the child "witches" that they seem to be infested with, that does not mean that they are part and parcel of the standard Christian faith. It would be tha same as saying all English people (and all doctors) are represented by Harold Shipman.True cautionary statement.

But we within the Christian community must be careful to recognize the power of the pulpit and danger in reading the Bible as literal directions and law. And careful in deciding who is a "real Christian" and who is not, lest we sound like the infighting among Muslims, etc.

Btw, I believe if you'll try his link, you'll see that the story presented the material that way, not just Blob.:cool:

While they may claim to be, while eliminating the child "witches" that they seem to be infested with, that does not mean that they are part and parcel of the standard Christian faith. It would be tha same as saying all English people (and all doctors) are represented by Harold Shipman. It's intellectually disingenuous to categorize this way, and frankly I'm surprised that you have.I made no such categorisation, and was simply replying to someone claiming they are not Christians at all. As I said above, a Christian is simply one who accepts Jesus Christ as his saviour.

You raise an interesting general point, however. The particular kind of witch belief these people have suggests to me that vestiges of their original West African religion from before the Europeans came have mingled with Christianity.

you'll see that the story presented the material that way, not just Blob.:cool:I simply posted and linked a story, and did not "present" it.

I made no such categorisation, and was simply replying to someone claiming they are not Christians at all. As I said above, a Christian is simply one who accepts Jesus Christ as his saviour.
Sorry, was just going by the thread topic and response herein. It didn't sound like the Blob that I know, therefore the response from me. Again, misinterpretation on my part, my mistake.

This also begs the question... Have you really accepted Christ if you believe and behave in this manner? I find it hard to fathom that presumption.

You raise an interesting general point, however. The particular kind of witch belief these people have suggests to me that vestiges of their original West African religion from before the Europeans came have mingled with Christianity.
I think you are correct. It seems to be a mutated Christian belief (not that all are not in some form or fashion). Good point.

True cautionary statement.

But we within the Christian community must be careful to recognize the power of the pulpit and danger in reading the Bible as literal directions and law. And careful in deciding who is a "real Christian" and who is not, lest we sound like the infighting among Muslims, etc.
So true. It gets hard to defend ones belief, when there are so many that distort and corrupt the religion (and when there are so many interpretations of how a Christian should conduct themselves). I guess that is why I prefer practicing my faith my own way, without paying heed to the particular dogma that often follow select churches/denominations.

I simply posted and linked a story, and did not "present" it.That's actually what I was trying to say. My last clause was poorly written. It should have read:"...that way, Blob just posted the story." Something like that.

I'm sorry if, in my careless posting, I misrepresented you in some way.:cool:

So true. It gets hard to defend ones belief, when there are so many that distort and corrupt the religion (and when there are so many interpretations of how a Christian should conduct themselves). I guess that is why I prefer practicing my faith my own way, without paying heed to the particular dogma that often follow select churches/denominations.Yeah. Sometimes when asked, "Are you a Christian?" I feel like responding: "What exactly do you mean by Christian?" Damn shame, huh?

To me, a Christian is anyone who knows with out a doubt they know Jesus.

When I read this:
First thing that came to my mind was the which hunts of Salem Mass.
Based on pure ignorance. Same thing might be happening here. They may be actual Christians and responding to all they know the way a Christian would if a Christian could kill demons and what not.

I hope that doesn't set anyone back in their thinking.
Like Old said, it just might be a blend of two traditions. To me it sounds more like pure and simple ignorance.

To me, a Christian is anyone who knows with out a doubt they know Jesus.
So self-assuredness is a major element?

So self-assuredness is a major element?
Not really. I mean what it says. If you know you know Jesus/God, then you're a Christian.
So assuredness in self isn't a factor, assuredness in God is.
But, if you have assuredness in God then you should most assuredly have assuredness in self. hehe

Care to comment on any of my threads criticising atheists (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?t=32973), sedan?

It's not my fault one of their own congregation got kicked out and then turned his gun on the rest, or that Nigerian Christians are abusing and murdering their own children. I wonder how many more Christians will kill other Christians before God is satisfied.
I'm pretty sure sedan was being sarcastic...

It really confuses me that Christians can blame the murder of Christians on atheists who had nothing to do with it, but when they see Christians doing bad things they say that they can't be "real" Christians. Slightly odd. Why can't everyone accept that there are bad people in every race, religion, etc.? I'm female, but I wouldn't say that no women ever do bad things just because of that.

It really confuses me that Christians can blame the murder of Christians on atheists who had nothing to do with it, but when they see Christians doing bad things they say that they can't be "real" Christians. Slightly odd. Why can't everyone accept that there are bad people in every race, religion, etc.?

Generalization. Find anywhere that I have said that I blamed atheists on the murder of Christians (I think you mean a specific Christian poster). As for the last statement, I accept and concur with you completely.

Generalization. Find anywhere that I have said that I blamed atheists on the murder of Christians (I think you mean a specific Christian poster). As for the last statement, I accept and concur with you completely.
I wasn't saying ALL Christians, I was saying some of them, mostly the one specific poster to whom you're referring. :)

I wasn't saying ALL Christians, I was saying some of them, mostly the one specific poster to whom you're referring. :)

Who is it? Who is it? Who is it? Who is it? Who is it?...

Who is it? Who is it? Who is it? Who is it? Who is it?...
Have you read the "Mass Murders in Colorado" thread?

Have you read the "Mass Murders in Colorado" thread?
I have now. Hmmm.

That is all.

Not really. I mean what it says. If you know you know Jesus/God, then you're a Christian.
So assuredness in self isn't a factor, assuredness in God is.
But, if you have assuredness in God then you should most assuredly have assuredness in self. heheBtw, I identify myself and see myself as a Christian. Am trying to understand your meaning.

So...I'm not sure about how to explain my question: if YOU know that YOU know Jesus, it sounds like your reliance is on your own understanding/perception of something that YOU know as God. There is, in that case, no objective way to determine much about the matter to an outside observer; there is no witness, if you will.

How does one, in that case, distinguish between the true believer and the psychotic who knows that they know that God is sending them special messages through their dental work?

Care to comment on any of my threads criticising atheists (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?t=32973), sedan?

It's not my fault one of their own congregation got kicked out and then turned his gun on the rest, or that Nigerian Christians are abusing and murdering their own children. I wonder how many more Christians will kill other Christians before God is satisfied.
This was perhaps not the best time for sedan's trademark sarcasm.

Btw, I identify myself and see myself as a Christian. Am trying to understand your meaning.

So...I'm not sure about how to explain my question: if YOU know that YOU know Jesus, it sounds like your reliance is on your own understanding/perception of something that YOU know as God. There is, in that case, no objective way to determine much about the matter to an outside observer; there is no witness, if you will.

How does one, in that case, distinguish between the true believer and the psychotic who knows that they know that God is sending them special messages through their dental work?

lol dental work.

Me personally, I like to think that I'd be pretty stupid to worship something I didn't know existed. If for example, I simply had a concept that "a" God existed, I'd still be pretty stupid to simply pick a religion and hope it was "the" religion of "the" God.
I don't make up what or who God is.

I know him, like I know you or Blob or Frogger, or Nap.
God has his own personality, I don't change that or have any hopes in changing that to make it what I want it to be. After all, God being real enough to exist is so powerful that he changes me to be what he wants, not the other way around.

So I take the view, that if God changes me, he can and will change anyone else. That being the case, you can see God working in other people, regardless of what religion they are in.
I don't think God would let those people stay in a religion that wasn't the one he meant for people to be in. Eventually if God wants you to know him like I do, you'll wind up being a Christian.
However, because he is working in everyone, those lines aren't going to be black and white.
But that also means, that God is who he is. From the perspective of an outsider, there is no way to tell.
The only way to really know, is to know who God is.

Hope that helps.

Eventually if God wants you to know him like I do, you'll wind up being a Christian.

Man. Here we go again. :rolleyes:

(At least you're civil to us heathens, I'll give you that! :) )

Man. Here we go again. :rolleyes:

(At least you're civil to us heathens, I'll give you that! :) )
I don't see what was wrong with that at all. He said that if God wants you to be a Christian then you'll become a Christian. He didn't say that God does want that, and he wasn't telling you to become a Christian. You're a little sensitive, huh?

I don't see what was wrong with that at all. He said that if God wants you to be a Christian then you'll become a Christian. He didn't say that God does want that, and he wasn't telling you to become a Christian. You're a little sensitive, huh?

He has assumed that (THE) god is Christian. The height of arrogance, considering that there are 19 major religions on the planet and hundreds of minor ones.They can't all be right, you know.

According to David Barrett et al, editors of the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and many smaller ones. 34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations." --Religious Tolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm)

What if God is Allah? What if God is Buddah? Whachoo gonna do then, Willis? ;)

He has assumed that (THE) god is Christian. The height of arrogance, considering that there are 19 major religions on the planet and hundreds of minor ones.They can't all be right, you know.



What if God is Allah? What if God is Buddah? Whachoo gonna do then, Willis? ;)

I haven't assumed anything heathen!

what if God is whoever or whatever a single person wants God to be?

what if God is whoever or whatever a single person wants God to be?
Then it would be something thats generated from that person and not God.
Unless that is how God chose to speak to that person, but God being one of Laws and rules, I dont see that happening.

what if God is whoever or whatever a single person wants God to be?

That works great for me! It's my personal philosophy, you see. :)

I believe what I believe and I rarely talk about it. I've certainly never tried to "convert" anyone to my beliefs, or insisted they were "evil" for having different beliefs. I'd love it if others did the same.

:thumbs:

Care to comment on any of my threads criticising atheists (http://www.allforums.net/showthread.php?t=32973), sedan?My apologies, Blob.

I shouldn't have used your thread to take a shot at SMW -- there are plenty of other places for that sort of thing.

That works great for me! It's my personal philosophy, you see. :)

I believe what I believe and I rarely talk about it. I've certainly never tried to "convert" anyone to my beliefs, or insisted they were "evil" for having different beliefs. I'd love it if others did the same.

:thumbs:

I have yet to try and convert anyone.

You sound as if it isnt ok to be confident in what you believe?

What if God is Allah? What if God is Buddah? Whachoo gonna do then, Willis? ;)
Maybe Buddah or Allah want you to be Christian? Could be part of the plan... And I think if there is a God he had to plan for multiple religions and want people to be part of them.

Maybe Buddah or Allah want you to be Christian? Could be part of the plan... And I think if there is a God he had to plan for multiple religions and want people to be part of them.

You could well be right. But up to this point, s/he doesn't seem to have exerted enough power over me to make it happen.

:)

I have yet to try and convert anyone.

You sound as if it isnt ok to be confident in what you believe?

It IS ok. Just don't push what you believe on me, please. :)

And while you may not personally have tried to convert anyone, there are plenty of "Christian" (and other) religions that DO try to convert us heathens.

why does god let them do it?

It IS ok. Just don't push what you believe on me, please. :)

And while you may not personally have tried to convert anyone, there are plenty of "Christian" (and other) religions that DO try to convert us heathens.
Well, you're heathens, of course they're going to try.

Besides you responded to a question I answered, thats the same thing.
If you didn't want to push what you believe then you should have just seen what I posted for what it was and went on your merry way.
But you didn't, you stopped to make sure I knew you believed I was wrong.

I could be wrong about that.

why does god let them do it?
Kill people in a mass murdering rampage, or follow other religions?

why does god let them do it?

God only knows.

:lolhit:

Kill people in a mass murdering rampage, or follow other religions?
let the parnts abuse there kids.call them witchs

God only knows.

:lolhit:ok

Well, you're heathens, of course they're going to try.

Why must they? Is god keeping score? Is that what your god does?

Besides you responded to a question I answered, thats the same thing.

Your logic escapes me here. Can you expand on that?

If you didn't want to push what you believe then you should have just seen what I posted for what it was and went on your merry way.


Where have I ever pushed my personal form of "religion" on you (or anyone else)? Do you even know who my personal "god" is?

I could be wrong about that.

It's possible. :)

let the parnts abuse there kids.call them witchs
I wish I could answer that, but I wouldnt even come close to doing it justice.
I'm just going to leave a site and the answer they give.

http://www.gotquestions.org/innocent-suffer.html
Could God prevent all suffering? Of course. But He assures us that “all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). So even suffering is part of the “all things” that God is using to accomplish His good purposes. His plan is perfect, His character is flawless, and those who trust Him will not be disappointed.

Why must they? Is god keeping score? Is that what your god does?
I said that because it sounded funny, now it sounds even more funny.

Your logic escapes me here. Can you expand on that?

One way or the other you were compelled to respond to my post.
I made the assumption that the core of your beliefs were responsible for compelling you.

Where have I ever pushed my personal form of "religion" on you (or anyone else)?
In the post man! Keep up!

Do you even know who my personal "god" is?

No, does it matter as long as you're going around and pushing your core belief on me??


It's possible. :)

Word!

I made the assumption that the core of your beliefs were responsible for compelling you.

You think the plants made me do it? :D My god(s) have no interest in directing or keeping track of the activities of humans. My god(s) are the wind and rain and soil and the creatures that live in/on them.

In the post man! Keep up!

You're going to have to point it out to me, because I don't think I've gone into any detail (prior to the above statement and only minor detail elsewhere) about "what I believe in."

No, does it matter as long as you're going around and pushing your core belief on me??

I'm still confused (I must have worked harder than I thought I did, today!). Where have I insisted that everyone stop believing in their own god(s) and start believing in mine? When have I labeled believers of other religions "evil" or stated that they are responsible for all the senseless violence/hatred that some people visit upon others?

If I've implied that, I apologize. I'm happy for everyone to believe whatever they want to. I just don't want them to pepper their communications to me with it. I don't want them knocking on my door to tell me about it. I don't want them trying to "save my soul" or similar nonsense. I'd like them to just drop it altogether and keep it to themselves. (Which is what I'd like to do, but people keep saying I'm "evil" and "ignorant" and "damned" and mean things like that. :) )

Is that so much to ask?

He has assumed that (THE) god is Christian. The height of arrogance, considering that there are 19 major religions on the planet and hundreds of minor ones.They can't all be right, you know.

What if God is Allah? What if God is Buddah? Whachoo gonna do then, Willis? ;)God is those names. What's the problem?

Is that so much to ask?
Not really. If at some point in your life you felt compelled to ask someone something about their faith, maybe someone you admired, in spite of what you see as their silliness, then they'd be invited, and you'd be open to hearing whatever they had to offer.

On the other hand, if I wish you a Merry Christmas and say "God Bless you" when you sneeze, be gentle with me okay. No harm intended.

(Consider one thing, though, as a purely academic matter: all the hoo-doo that people add to things muddies the water, but Christianity only has to mean this- Love God, and love what God loves. The rest is details and format. From your earlier post re nature, "Mother," etc), I suspect you are closer to God than your language, or ideology!, might lead some to think, even you. xoxo):cool:

I wish I could answer that, but I wouldnt even come close to doing it justice.
I'm just going to leave a site and the answer they give.

http://www.gotquestions.org/innocent-suffer.html
Could God prevent all suffering? Of course. But He assures us that “all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). So even suffering is part of the “all things” that God is using to accomplish His good purposes. His plan is perfect, His character is flawless, and those who trust Him will not be disappointed.Second, He proves to us that our faith is real through the suffering and pain that are inevitable in this life. How we respond to suffering is determined by the genuineness of our faith. Those with faith truly from God, “the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2), will not be crushed by suffering, but will come through the trial with their faith intact, having been “proven through fire” so that it “might be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7). Those are the ones who do not shake their fists at God or question His goodness, but instead “count it all joy” (James 1:2), knowing that trials prove that they are truly the children of God. “Blessed is the man who endures temptation, because having been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).


god plans it?thats not rihgt.

god plans it?thats not rihgt.
You are correct, sir!

(Keep looking, LittleJoe. Look until you find something that makes some sense and does not ask you to believe in a cruel, indifferant and capricious god.)

Look until you find something that makes some sense

none of it makes sense.

i read a part of the bible. it says god loves us. i dont no y he wuld let bad things hapen n call us a kid of his.

Those are the ones who do not shake their fists at God or question His goodness, but instead “count it all joy” (James 1:2), knowing that trials prove that they are truly the children of God.

how can it be good to get hurt.i dont no how it can prove ur gods kid becuse he let u get hurt n then be happy about it. im mad at god.i dont think ill go to heven now but i dont think its nice he let bad things hapen.
id like to think he is looken over us. i dont think he is. :(

im mad at god. :(I think maybe it is not God you are mad at, but rather the ridiculous things people say about God.

I think maybe it is not God you are mad at, but rather the ridiculous things people say about God.
i want to think god loves me. icant if he let bad things hapen.i dont think thats love but i dont no.

Not really. If at some point in your life you felt compelled to ask someone something about their faith, maybe someone you admired, in spite of what you see as their silliness, then they'd be invited, and you'd be open to hearing whatever they had to offer.

I have, and do! Just two weeks ago, as a matter of fact. I chatted with my neighbor's 18-yr-old son (this family is quite religious, they're all my good friends [adults and kids, alike], generally excellent humans, and I bet they'd say the same about me, in spite of my heathenicity :) ) about a religious group in the area known colloquially as "bunners (http://northwestanglican.blogspot.com/2007/07/apostolic-lutheranism-introduction_20.html)," to learn more about them and their faith.

Humorous and informative, although my personal feeling about Apostolic Lutherans remains the same - they're apparently quite fervent in their religious beliefs and that doesn't (or hasn't, at least) had even the remotest impact on my life. It's little more than anecdotal religious information to me, and I truly hope their religion/faith works for them. They're not known for trying to "spread the word" or convert anyone, so what they believe doesn't really concern me at all, but I do hear the term "bunner" used with some frequency around here, and I was curious. (Note: we did not discuss my beliefs at all, nor his.)

On the other hand, if I wish you a Merry Christmas and say "God Bless you" when you sneeze, be gentle with me okay. No harm intended.

That doesn't bother me in the least. I'm essentially a secular person, and "God bless you/Merry Christmas," doesn't cross my eyes at all.

I happen to believe that the strongest and most unstoppable force on this planet/in this galaxy is nature, and I respect the hell out of it, but I'm no member of PETA. Nature is beautiful to me, and awesome, and all-powerful, but I don't hesitate to grab the shotgun when there's a coyote going after my chickens. :)

Please don't ask me to rationalize/explain that; I can't. It works for me, is all I can say, and if it works for you, too, rock on. If it doesn't, well hell, that's fine, too. But don't get in my face about it, please. :)

(Consider one thing, though, as a purely academic matter: all the hoo-doo that people add to things muddies the water, but Christianity only has to mean this- Love God, and love what God loves. The rest is details and format.

I would love that to be the case, but I don't think, in far too many cases, it turns out to be. Too many people make it a personal quest/challenge/whatever to influence/change the religious beliefs of others.

From your earlier post re nature, "Mother," etc), I suspect you are closer to God than your language, or ideology!, might lead some to think, even you. xoxo):cool:

Could be. I don't presume to know. I wish others felt the same way. :thumbs:

i want to think god loves me. icant if he let bad things hapen.i dont think thats love but i dont no.
sometimes peple hurt u then say they love u. i dont no how but maybe gods like that?

god plans it?thats not rihgt.

Yeah, its worded a little weird there. I dont think it's trying to say God plans the bad stuff. I think its trying to say, God can make good come from anything bad.
In other words, God is letting us choose for ourselves by letting us do whatever the heck we want to do down here. He's letting us see the bad so we know what it is.
Basically, God doesn't do bad stuff, but he lets it happen so we can know of it.

Personally I look at it this way.
If someone simply says, thats bad don't do it, you're going to want to do it even more.
I'm not saying you're going to have the urge to kill people. Just saying, we dont know anything until it happens.
It's hard to explain it the way it should be because anything is going to sound trivial.

You are correct, sir!

(Keep looking, LittleJoe. Look until you find something that makes some sense and does not ask you to believe in a cruel, indifferant and capricious god.)
Way to be confusing, good job!

You think the plants made me do it? :D My god(s) have no interest in directing or keeping track of the activities of humans. My god(s) are the wind and rain and soil and the creatures that live in/on them.



You're going to have to point it out to me, because I don't think I've gone into any detail (prior to the above statement and only minor detail elsewhere) about "what I believe in."



I'm still confused (I must have worked harder than I thought I did, today!). Where have I insisted that everyone stop believing in their own god(s) and start believing in mine? When have I labeled believers of other religions "evil" or stated that they are responsible for all the senseless violence/hatred that some people visit upon others?

If I've implied that, I apologize. I'm happy for everyone to believe whatever they want to. I just don't want them to pepper their communications to me with it. I don't want them knocking on my door to tell me about it. I don't want them trying to "save my soul" or similar nonsense. I'd like them to just drop it altogether and keep it to themselves. (Which is what I'd like to do, but people keep saying I'm "evil" and "ignorant" and "damned" and mean things like that. :) )

Is that so much to ask?
Mad dog?

I have one word for you...

Hippie!

Could be. I don't presume to know. I wish others felt the same way. :thumbs:Yes, I often am humbled by the human tendency to think we can understand/expain everything. I was raised in a Christian tradition that presumed to know everything there was to know about God, which ultimately struck me as funny. You can't figure out your own children, yet you've got God down cold? Pretty small God, I say.

Today I know it a little differantly, and one of the main elements of that knowing is that there is much that is unknown and unknowable, and even more that is impossible to put into words. There is much about life that is difficult to explain well, but that doesn't make it unreal. It's like the complex koan of sex, the mixture of tenderness and aggression, of wanting to take and give at the same time, of selfishness and compassion all in the same stew pot. It makes no sense, but there is little better in the wide world.

Little wonder, then, that the Bible often speaks of God and humankind using the husband-wife metaphor.

Way to be confusing, good job!"Traditional" theology is what's confusing, IMO, friend. It asks people to believe obviously contradictory things.

I only encourage LittleJoe to continue to seek until he finds.

Mad dog?

I have one word for you... Hippie!

That probably fits, although I wasn't a part of any of the hippie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie) thang, not even a little bit (in 1967, I was 9 years old and madly in love with Donny Osmond). It's entirely possible that in my old age, I've adopted some hippie-esque qualities. Is that a bad thing?

:)

That probably fits, although I wasn't a part of any of the hippie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie) thang, not even a little bit (in 1967, I was 9 years old and madly in love with Donny Osmond). It's entirely possible that in my old age, I've adopted some hippie-esque qualities. Is that a bad thing?

:)
HAHA you like Donny Osmond!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/Donnyosmond.jpg

My apologies, Blob.

I shouldn't have used your thread to take a shot at SMW -- there are plenty of other places for that sort of thing.Oops! My bad. I sometimes have trouble remembering who's who and where they're coming from what with only hanging out in R&P.

Here's the real problem with religion. You christians are sitting here judging the people in Nigeria and calling them "not really christians". Well they are probably sitting in Nigeria calling YOU "not real christians". Who's right? Who is following the bible properly? Both of you believe that you yourselves are "right".

HAHA you like Donny Osmond!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/Donnyosmond.jpg


Yeah, I know. I'll never live it down. :D

i want to think god loves me. icant if he let bad things hapen.i dont think thats love but i dont no.


I love my son but I can't guarantee he will never get hurt. But I will always be there for him during the pain.

It's that same way with God.

:)

I love my son but I can't guarantee he will never get hurt. But I will always be there for him during the pain.

It's that same way with God.

:)This is well reasoned and stated. The problems arise when people want to attribute Super Hero powers to God, because obviously if you were omnipotent, you could guarantee his well being.

This is well reasoned and stated. The problems arise when people want to attribute Super Hero powers to God, because obviously if you were omnipotent, you could guarantee his well being.
I know for a fact that he healed someone with bipolar disorder.
Like I said, you just have to know him.

This is well reasoned and stated. The problems arise when people want to attribute Super Hero powers to God, because obviously if you were omnipotent, you could guarantee his well being.


Yep and that pretty much gives Him the go to do what He wants.

It's all about trust and faith.

I know for a fact that he healed someone with bipolar disorder.
Like I said, you just have to know him.Healings happen all across history and in all cultures. They are not definitive of the God of Christianity.

Yep and that pretty much gives Him the go to do what He wants.

It's all about trust and faith.I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that God is literally omnipotent, could protect His children, and yet at times does not?

Faith and trust are related to this, how?

Healings happen all across history and in all cultures. They are not definitive of the God of Christianity.
I never said God had the patent on cures, I just said he cured someone and you have to know him. You said yourself that youre a Christian, don't you think God could cure someone if he wanted to and not be the source for every cure in the world?

I never said God had the patent on cures, I just said he cured someone and you have to know him. You said yourself that youre a Christian, don't you think God could cure someone if he wanted to and not be the source for every cure in the world?I do know that people of God, by what ever name they call God, have performed healings. This is a cross cultural phenomenon. My only point in the matter is to say that having a healing occur does nothing to establish any specific religious tradition as more, or less, valuable/"true"/exclusive than any other.

Further, I suppose, in the minds of a person seeking a place to put down his/her worship roots, it really begs the question: why would a just God heal someone of really bad mood swings yet allow the genocide in Darfur?

This is the problem with attributing super hero characteristics onto the nature and character of God.

I love my son but I can't guarantee he will never get hurt.
If you could, would you?

I do know that people of God, by what ever name they call God, have performed healings. This is a cross cultural phenomenon. My only point in the matter is to say that having a healing occur does nothing to establish any specific religious tradition as more, or less, valuable/"true"/exclusive than any other.

Further, I suppose, in the minds of a person seeking a place to put down his/her worship roots, it really begs the question: why would a just God heal someone of really bad mood swings yet allow the genocide in Darfur?

This is the problem with attributing super hero characteristics onto the nature and character of God.

Quite true, shiloh.

Just as prayer (which many think of as a request of God) is actually for the benefit of the worshiper... and not for God. He knows what we need, it is for our benefit that we ask... not his.

Healing, I believe, is the same way. We ask for help... but the help we receive is based on our faith, not the omnipotence (and power) of God.

Healing, I believe, is the same way. We ask for help... but the help we receive is based on our faith, not the omnipotence (and power) of God.I have lately come to understand an important differance between healing and curing, and you seem quite right to me; it is more about the person needing the healing, and less about the healer.

If you could, would you?
I dont think I would, think I would want my kid to learn stuff.
When it comes to certain things, of course I would. But we all need to make our mistakes in this world.

I have lately come to understand an important differance between healing and curing, and you seem quite right to me; it is mare about the person needing the healing, and less about the healer.
Thats why it has been said, all things can be made good through God.
I think I have done a lot of good in the name of God, I wouldnt have if I never knew him.
So, you have to know him.

I dont think I would, think I would want my kid to learn stuff.
When it comes to certain things, of course I would. But we all need to make our mistakes in this world.How would you explain a god who allows his children to be murdered when it is within his ability to stop it? This is not about the child learning from a mistake, rather it's about being victimized, for whatever reason.

I think I have done a lot of good in the name of God, I wouldnt have if I never knew him.I wonder.
So, you have to know him.Does it seem to you to matter by what name a person knows God? That is, is there any difference in effect between the Baptist and the Hindu and the Buddhist?

How would you explain a god who allows his children to be murdered when it is within his ability to stop it? This is not about the child learning from a mistake, rather it's about being victimized, for whatever reason.

Kind of been explained already. I even said anything is going to sound trivial.
Here.
Yeah, its worded a little weird there. I dont think it's trying to say God plans the bad stuff. I think its trying to say, God can make good come from anything bad.
In other words, God is letting us choose for ourselves by letting us do whatever the heck we want to do down here. He's letting us see the bad so we know what it is.
Basically, God doesn't do bad stuff, but he lets it happen so we can know of it.

Personally I look at it this way.
If someone simply says, thats bad don't do it, you're going to want to do it even more.
I'm not saying you're going to have the urge to kill people. Just saying, we dont know anything until it happens.
It's hard to explain it the way it should be because anything is going to sound trivial.

We dont know anything other then whats going on on this planet.
I know suffering and murder are truly horrible things, just maybe they're not after we die. I'm not trying to talk down about suffering.
All I'm really saying is, dieing and suffering on this planet just might be the least of our problems, or it could be the worse. Just depends on how we meet the end. Anyway I say that it sounds bad. I just cant think of any other way.
I personally, want to be in Heaven with God. This planet has nothing for me.
As bad as that sounds, maybe thats why God lets things happen, so we can understand that.
You're not going to appreciate something if you dont know the value of it.

I wonder.
Does it seem to you to matter by what name a person knows God? That is, is there any difference in effect between the Baptist and the Hindu and the Buddhist?
Well yeah, but thats the same for the Buddhist and the Baptist and the Hindu...
Well maybe not some Buddhist.
And the baptist are the same as Christian, so no on that.
Look dude, if you're not Christian just say, you're not Christian.
Like I said before, if God wants you to know him he'll take you where you need to be. That would be true if any other religion was right and I was wrong.
I just happen to think I'm right. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.

Like I said before, if God wants you to know him
So, you would say that some people God meant to be atheists?

So, you would say that some people God meant to be atheists?
No, I dont think he did, but then we get into the all knowing conversation.
I think it's more important to God for you to choose what you want then for God to forcibly take you down a path he chose for you.
Theres more love involved when you figure it out for yourself. Know what I mean?

Theres more love involved when you figure it out for yourself. Know what I mean?
Not really. When I show somebody how to do something, I take the time to explain to them not only how to do it right, but how to think about what they're doing. I impart onto them a much fuller understanding of the concepts involved than simply, "click here to do this," and expecting them to figure out the whys on their own. I like to think I show people more "love" by doing so.

Look dude, if you're not Christian just say, you're not Christian.I am Christian. (It always cracks me up when people jump to this sort of question/suggestion, simply because they are asked to explain a little about what they believe. It's as if they feel their view, which they usually see as the only possible "correct" one, is being challenged instead of explored, and that any challange must mean you're not a "real" Christian! Funny.) Having said that, I do not think that all people who consider themselves "Christian" agree on all things related, nor do they need to.
Like I said before, if God wants you to know him he'll take you where you need to be.Are you Calvinistc? It seems by this statement that it is likely so.
hat would be true if any other religion was right and I was wrong.Why would you have to be wrong for them to be right?
I just happen to think I'm right. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.I'm not saying there is.

Not really. When I show somebody how to do something, I take the time to explain to them not only how to do it right, but how to think about what they're doing. I impart onto them a much fuller understanding of the concepts involved than simply, "click here to do this," and expecting them to figure out the whys on their own. I like to think I show people more "love" by doing so.
God does that when you become a Christian. Kind of does that before you become one to. You can show someone something and put all the love in the world behind it, doesn't mean they'll enjoy it or appreciate you for showing them.
I'm here now explaining it to you and being as nice as I can... hehe

Are you listening?

Didn't you say your parents are Christians? Must of been some love in there to?

I like to think I show people more "love" by doing so.Especially if the consequence of not getting it right is a literal eternal fire pit!

...but I believe he meant: more love on the part of the person coming toward God out of love, rather than some sort of force. But maybe not.

God does that when you become a Christian.
So, God told the preachers in the subject of this thread how to vilify children?

You can show someone something and put all the love in the world behind it, doesn't mean they'll enjoy it or appreciate you for showing them.
I disagree. It's a skill called tact. One can tactfully approach any topic and tell anybody anything. It isn't always easy, but it's always possible.

I'm here now explaining it to you and being as nice as I can... hehe
Do your worst, cowboy! I can take it! :D