How would you explain a god who allows his children to be murdered when it is within his ability to stop it? This is not about the child learning from a mistake, rather it's about being victimized, for whatever reason.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/tormented/6242071208_epicurius.jpg

I am Christian. (It always cracks me up when people jump to this sort of question/suggestion, simply because they are asked to explain a little about what they believe. It's as if they feel their view, which they usually see as the only possible "correct" one, is being challenged instead of explored, and that any challange must mean you're not a "real" Christian! Funny.) Having said that, I do not think that all people who consider themselves "Christian" agree on all things related, nor do they need to.

Not at all, I just expect a Christian to have the same answers I do. You should be worried about defending it.
For no other reason am I questioning your religion.

Are you Calvinistc? It seems by this statement that it is likely so.
Why would you have to be wrong for them to be right?
I'm not saying there is.
I'm protestant but only because I don't want to be Catholic because that would put me in a category.
I have talked to several people from several denominations who feel exactly as I do. You don't seem to fit into that equation yourself.
Any "religion" is what I'm talking about. When I say, Christian. I mean anyone who believes they have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Any person in any denomination that takes on that meaning is a brother or sister to me.
So if any other "religion" was the one religion that God chose, then they would be right. Because they're with God and I am not. Simple logic.

...but I believe he meant: more love on the part of the person coming toward God out of love, rather than some sort of force. But maybe not.
I don't force people to think the way I do when I explain something. The simple truth of my words does the trick. It's a skill I've honed over the years, explaining difficult concepts in simple words. I would think that if God existed, surely He would be more skilled in the art of tact than I am, and He would explain to all in simple, unambiguous terms the best way to know Him and to live life and all that jazz. But He doesn't, instead relying on hearsay from his flawed creations. Perhaps God just likes to sit and watch us like we were "Seinfeld."

So, God told the preachers in the subject of this thread how to vilify children?

Now you're just getting silly. Are atheist beer drinking wife beating assholes because they have no moral ground to stand on?
You know as well as I do that people are people and some are bound to do some screwed up stuff.

I disagree. It's a skill called tact. One can tactfully approach any topic and tell anybody anything. It isn't always easy, but it's always possible.
No, I dont think you see what I'm saying. I think you're making it entirely to easy to make what you want sound possible.
I dont think you can show someone to love the way you want them to.


Do your worst, cowboy! I can take it! :D
I just might!

No, I dont think you see what I'm saying. I think you're making it entirely to easy to make what you want sound possible.
I dont think you can show someone to love the way you want them to.
I think God, who is all knowing, all loving, would be able to do it quite easily.

But, then, here's this. Consider a person who exudes friendliness and love. Even the most hardened of assholes softens up around this guy, and even if they aren't cured of their asshole traits, they at least don't display them towards him. This guy without trying teaches others how to be friendly and loving. This is the guy I aspire to be, by the way. Wouldn't you say, that by this man's very existence, he makes the world around him a wonderful place to be in? Now you posit that that man exists everywhere, pervading everything. Why isn't life all bread and fishes then?

If one man can do it, why can't God?

Not at all, I just expect a Christian to have the same answers I do. You should be worried about defending it.
For no other reason am I questioning your religion.Yes, many people who identify themselves as Christian seem to think the only way to view things is their way. I'm very familiar with that type of Christianity, but I don't feel any worry at all about defending anything. Your questioning my religion is about you, not me and not God, and that's fine with me. (I notice you haven't bothered to actually ask me about my own belief on any matter, but rather concluded that I must be "wrong," and therefore not Christian, because I was asking questions of you.)
I'm protestant but only because I don't want to be Catholic because that would put me in a category.Regardless of what you believe or what church you may be a member of, you are still in a category.
I have talked to several people from several denominations who feel exactly as I do.No doubt.
You don't seem to fit into that equation yourself.Probably not.
Any "religion" is what I'm talking about. When I say, Christian. I mean anyone who believes they have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.I have no problem professing this, nor the Creeds, etc., but I'm sure that I mean them differently than you would.
Any person in any denomination that takes on that meaning is a brother or sister to me.And anyone who professes them but understands their meaning differently would be what to you?
So if any other "religion" was the one religion that God chose, then they would be right. Because they're with God and I am not. Simple logic.Things of the Spirit have little to do with logic. Why would God be limited to the way you understand things, or to the way God speaks to you through the traditions and language of Christianity?

I think God, who is all knowing, all loving, would be able to do it quite easily.

But, then, here's this. Consider a person who exudes friendliness and love. Even the most hardened of assholes softens up around this guy, and even if they aren't cured of their asshole traits, they at least don't display them towards him. This guy without trying teaches others how to be friendly and loving. This is the guy I aspire to be, by the way. Wouldn't you say, that by this man's very existence, he makes the world around him a wonderful place to be in? Now you posit that that man exists everywhere, pervading everything. Why isn't life all bread and fishes then?

If one man can do it, why can't God?

God does, there is supposedly some 3 billion Christians on the planet. I'd say that means there are truly right around 2 billion, give or take a few million.
At any rate, I have seen the exact same thing youre talking about happen alot. I have seen people go from being the worse people you have ever seen to being completely... Nice. It happens all the time.
In quite a bit of the Christian communities I have seen life is all bread and fish. Thats funny.
I have been to every community you can imagine, all black, all Hispanic, mixed, all white... It doesn't matter, as long as these people are acting in the interest of God it's very peaceful.
Theres a place here in Michigan, Pontiac Michigan.
http://www.gracecentersofhope.org/

There are people in this place that a year ago, were full blown crack heads.
Now they got a nice job a new car a house and so on.
I don't know, maybe you just haven't seen what I have.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/tormented/6242071208_epicurius.jpgThis clever poster points to the problem created by supernatural theism, and to the problem created by assuming there is no God because of the problems of supernatural theism! Atheist arguments often suffer from the problem of being constructed against the problems of Literalst arguments.


Was that pair of sentances confusing? Whew!:cool:

Yes, many people who identify themselves as Christian seem to think the only way to view things is their way. I'm very familiar with that type of Christianity, but I don't feel any worry at all about defending anything. Your questioning my religion is about you, not me and not God, and that's fine with me. (I notice you haven't bothered to actually ask me about my own belief on any matter, but rather concluded that I must be "wrong," and therefore not Christian, because I was asking questions of you.)
Regardless of what you believe or what church you may be a member of, you are still in a category.

There really is only one way to be a Christian, theres only one way to be a lot of things. I'm not pinning it down all on my own here. I never said nor have I said in this forum that anything is the way I want it to be. It's the way God wants it. Thats all I've ever said. So how is it based on what I think?


And anyone who professes them but understands their meaning differently would be what to you?
Would not be a Christian.

Things of the Spirit have little to do with logic. Why would God be limited to the way you understand things, or to the way God speaks to you through the traditions and language of Christianity?
God just speaks to me, he has shown me that Christianity is what he wants me to follow. I think I also tried to say before, in another post, that God is God. There are no limitations. I never argued that or said other wise.
You're getting out of this conversation what you want to.

When you asked, what proof do I have outside of my own experience, I said.

God has his own personality, I don't change that or have any hopes in changing that to make it what I want it to be. After all, God being real enough to exist is so powerful that he changes me to be what he wants, not the other way around.
Other people would be exhibiting that personality.
Thats why I also said.

The only way to really know, is to know who God is.

You're asking questions and thats fine. However, you're asking them in such a manner that I have to assume you're smart enough to know the answer.
I love God like I love my father, I'd say, more so then.
If you knew God, you would love him the same way I do. So you would be worried about sullying his good name or getting him upset.
Would you question the most important person in your life on how much they love you?

There really is only one way to be a Christian, theres only one way to be a lot of things. I'm not pinning it down all on my own here. I never said nor have I said in this forum that anything is the way I want it to be. It's the way God wants it. Thats all I've ever said. So how is it based on what I think?What you believe can can be no other thing than what you think God requires. Surely you don't believe that you speak for God in this matter, or have some perfect understanding that is not open to interpretation or growth?
Would not be a Christian.Funny. If someone sees it differantly than you, then they would not be an Inviolablian, but they may well still be a Christian.:cool: I will agree, however, that they'd not be your brothers and sisters, because sadly you would reject them.
God just speaks to me, he has shown me that Christianity is what he wants me to follow.Oh, I have no doubt of that! I support and encourage that all day long, even though we do not agree on some understandings. Yet you reject my Christianity because it does not reject those people that God has spoken to through another religious tradition?
I think I also tried to say before, in another post, that God is God. There are no limitations. I never argued that or said other wise.
You're getting out of this conversation what you want to.No, I'm not. I'm drawing inferences from your comments. You say it is the way you see it, or no way at all. I ask simply why can God not speak to you through one tradition and to someone else through another? Why does your style of Christianity contain the element of exclusivism?
You're asking questions and thats fine. However, you're asking them in such a manner that I have to assume you're smart enough to know the answer.I know my answer, it's yours that I'm exploring.
I love God like I love my father, I'd say, more so then.I'm sure you are blessed for that. Do you love the things God loves in the same way? Then the people around you are blessed, too.
If you knew God, you would love him the same way I do.Why can I not love God the way I do? Why, again, does it have to be like you?
So you would be worried about sullying his good name or getting him upset.I'm not worried about that at all. But, if your god can be sullied or upset so easily, I'd suggest you meet a bigger god.:cool:
Would you question the most important person in your life on how much they love you?Of course I would! I am human and we get weak at times, want to be assured at times, or just like hearing it from time to time. But I would not question God on who he is and what He values and how He inspires and enables me to live my life, in big ways or small.

I've enjoyed our chat tonight. I have to crash now. I've been at church all day working with our confirmation class on their Christmas service project, and tomorrow is another big day with my daughter's choir's musical performance. Man, those kids can knock it down. Peace.

What you believe can can be no other thing than what you think God requires. Surely you don't believe that you speak for God in this matter, or have some perfect understanding that is not open to interpretation or growth?
Funny. If someone sees it differantly than you, then they would not be an Inviolablian, but they may well still be a Christian.:cool: I will agree, however, that they'd not be your brothers and sisters, because sadly you would reject them.
Oh, I have no doubt of that! I support and encourage that all day long, even though we do not agree on some understandings. Yet you reject my Christianity because it does not reject those people that God has spoken to through another religious tradition?
No, I'm not. I'm drawing inferences from your comments. You say it is the way you see it, or no way at all. I ask simply why can God not speak to you through one tradition and to someone else through another? Why does your style of Christianity contain the element of exclusivism?
I know my answer, it's yours that I'm exploring.
I'm sure you are blessed for that. Do you love the things God loves in the same way? Then the people around you are blessed, too.
Why can I not love God the way I do? Why, again, does it have to be like you?
I'm not worried about that at all. But, if your god can be sullied or upset so easily, I'd suggest you meet a bigger god.:cool:
Of course I would! I am human and we get weak at times, want to be assured at times, or just like hearing it from time to time. But I would not question God on who he is and what He values and how He inspires and enables me to live my life, in big ways or small.

I've enjoyed our chat tonight. I have to crash now. I've been at church all day working with our confirmation class on their Christmas service project, and tomorrow is another big day with my daughter's choir's musical performance. Man, those kids can knock it down. Peace.
You seem to be getting the wrong idea from me here or there and I don't think any further conversation will correct it. So maybe we should just leave it at that?

You seem to be getting the wrong idea from me here or there and I don't think any further conversation will correct it. So maybe we should just leave it at that?I don't mean to mischaracterize anything you've written, only to understand it in it's fullness. But if you wish to drop this, that's okay. I'm available whenever you'd like to revisit the topic.

This clever poster points to the problem created by supernatural theism, and to the problem created by assuming there is no God because of the problems of supernatural theism! Atheist arguments often suffer from the problem of being constructed against the problems of Literalst arguments.


Was that pair of sentances confusing? Whew!:cool:

Those are Theological Mysteries of Faith.
They cannot be answered,just like Infinity.
Yes,God is Omnipotent,Onniscient & Omnipresent.

The Tragic Sense of Life {[1913}

" Note the greater part of our Atheists and you will see that
they are atheists from a kind of rage,rage at not being able to believe that
there is a God.They are personal enemies of God.They have
invested Nothingness with substance and personality,and
their N0-God is an Anti-God. "
-- Miguel De Unamuno

" Note the greater part of our Atheists and you will see that
they are atheists from a kind of rage,rage at not being able to believe that
there is a God.They are personal enemies of God.They have
invested Nothingness with substance and personality,and
their N0-God is an Anti-God. "
-- Miguel De Unamuno[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]Wow! Classic projection. I'm glad this guy doesn't speak for God!

Wow! Classic projection. I'm glad this guy doesn't speak for God!

Yes,Humans DO indeed Speak for God.It's called the
Inspired Word of God,as in the Bible and the prophets.
Um,who speaks for Atheists.?
Well,I guess some Humans...DO.
When they ain't bein too human,
Mind ya.


The Complaint,or Night Thoughts on Life,Death,and Immortality

" By night an atheist half believes in God " Night 5

-- Edward Young

'Christians' those extremists who believe they are so righteous-always having the backing of the man above-are a very dangerous brood.

With growing influence in US politics-they may very well lead the world down a dark path to armageddon some day.

Looking down upon and frowning at 'non believers'-these people wouldn't think twice to nuking some 'heathen' state-scary people.

I don't mean to mischaracterize anything you've written, only to understand it in it's fullness. But if you wish to drop this, that's okay. I'm available whenever you'd like to revisit the topic.
What do you expect to get out of it?

What do you expect to get out of it?I really have no expectations other than to understand other view points and probe how far they go. And consider how I might need to be responsible to those viewpoints, because they are part of the faith life of my extended family. (I was raised in a literalistc tradition and try be careful not to over generalize.)

Amos 5.6 is something I take as encouragement to always be open to realities/viewpoints/traditions other than just my own. Humility requires that I have to deal with the limitations of my own understanding, though I'm aware that some others see even that as faulty, in some ways, related to things of God.

I find it odd that one of the biggest virtues to Christians is humility... And yet they are anything but humble in professing that they fully understand everything god wants and are the only ones who could possibly know anything about god.

I really have no expectations other than to understand other view points and probe how far they go. And consider how I might need to be responsible to those viewpoints, because they are part of the faith life of my extended family. (I was raised in a literalistc tradition and try be careful not to over generalize.)

Amos 5.6 is something I take as encouragement to always be open to realities/viewpoints/traditions other than just my own. Humility requires that I have to deal with the limitations of my own understanding, though I'm aware that some others see even that as faulty, in some ways, related to things of God.
Everything I have said so far is entirely within your understanding, at least from what I've seen. I'm basically saying the same thing you are but under a different light.
I said I love God and you said, God shouldn't be worried about his good name.
There is a difference there but not one that cant be understood.
I love God enough to not want to sully his name. It doesn't matter what I think he can or cant handle, it's about letting him know my own way that I love him.
Even if he already knows that, I'm sure he would be pleased to see me expressing it. Which is something I don't see you doing. I see other Christian do it and understand it in that way and none of us are going outside of what we understand.
I'm not on this forum proclaiming I know everything and that anyone listening will have the answers to everything. Never even came close to saying that.
But you seem to be going outside of what I said or am saying and it's some what annoying.
So to keep from getting frustrated, I'd rather not have the conversation.

Those are Theological Mysteries of Faith.
They cannot be answered,just like Infinity.
Yes,God is Omnipotent,Onniscient & Omnipresent.

The Tragic Sense of Life {[1913}

" Note the greater part of our Atheists and you will see that
they are atheists from a kind of rage,rage at not being able to believe that
there is a God.They are personal enemies of God.They have
invested Nothingness with substance and personality,and
their N0-God is an Anti-God. "
-- Miguel De Unamuno

That was a pretty well worded load of bullshit, but bullshit nontheless...

This clever poster points to the problem created by supernatural theism, and to the problem created by assuming there is no God because of the problems of supernatural theism! Atheist arguments often suffer from the problem of being constructed against the problems of Literalst arguments.


Was that pair of sentances confusing? Whew!:cool:
If there is theism, isn't it by nature supernatural? Unless you're all just doing it for the wafers and wine, there has to be a supernatural element to religion. I understand how it could be galling to hear the same arguments aimed at literalist interpretations of religion, ("Why hasn't the rapture come yet?" "Wasn't Leviticus a nutjob?") but Epicurus's argument is anything but. It points to the very nature of God. If He exists, then He is by nature supernatural.

That was a pretty well worded load of bullshit, but bullshit nontheless...
Foolsworth is little but.

God does, there is supposedly some 3 billion Christians on the planet. I'd say that means there are truly right around 2 billion, give or take a few million.
At any rate, I have seen the exact same thing youre talking about happen alot. I have seen people go from being the worse people you have ever seen to being completely... Nice. It happens all the time.
In quite a bit of the Christian communities I have seen life is all bread and fish. Thats funny.
I have been to every community you can imagine, all black, all Hispanic, mixed, all white... It doesn't matter, as long as these people are acting in the interest of God it's very peaceful.
Theres a place here in Michigan, Pontiac Michigan.
http://www.gracecentersofhope.org/

There are people in this place that a year ago, were full blown crack heads.
Now they got a nice job a new car a house and so on.
I don't know, maybe you just haven't seen what I have.
Well, why aren't you living in one of those places? If it's all love and peace and cookies as you say? Point is, I'm sure these places exist, but if God really existed, it would all be like that. Because I know what the power of personality can do, and if God existed, we really would.

Lets quote: :)

"Religion is nothing more than bad concepts held in place of good ones for all time. It is the denial—at once full of hope and full of fear—of the vastitude of human ignorance."
Sam Harris

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
Thomas Jefferson

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
Benjamin Franklin

"Religious faith depends on a host of social, psychological and emotional factors that have little or nothing to do with probabilities, evidence and logic."
Michael Shermer

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
Carl Sagan

"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis."
Sigmund Freud

"Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived."
Oscar Wilde

"Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men."
Voltaire

"When other little girls wanted to be ballet dancers I kind of wanted to be a vampire."
Angelina Jolie

I like how you added an Angelina Jolie quote at the end! :p

I like how you added an Angelina Jolie quote at the end! :p

Yeah, just had to include that one :D

Ive always thought the Roman method on introducing Christian to lion was an
interesting encounter :)

Well, why aren't you living in one of those places? If it's all love and peace and cookies as you say? Point is, I'm sure these places exist, but if God really existed, it would all be like that. Because I know what the power of personality can do, and if God existed, we really would.
When I say, Christian community, I dont mean every single place is a homeless shelter, I do live in a Christian community. In the respect that I correspond to other Christians.
The reason not everyone is a Christian is also something I pointed out earlier and you seemed to completely ignore. People just don't want to be. It's that simple.
Your parents are Christians yes? Didn't they try and raise you to be a Christian?
With all the love a parent would...
Like I said, you cant force someone to love the way you want them to.
It's the kind of respect atheist gripe about all the time, they have it and when its pointed out to them they ask why God just doesn't force it on people.

Well, my mom was Christian, but we didn't talk about it much. She regrets it now.

The reason everyone isn't Christian, is because there's only so much hokum people can take. Believing in God, that one is pretty simple and straightforward. Now you add Jesus and a Holy Spirit, the Bible and tons of myths, and it all gets to be a tad bit much. Then you watch the news and read books and stuff, and it all starts to have the same feel about it that cheap-ass satin does. You might go to church and listen to the priest, who seems sincere enough, when he's not begging for donations to pay the electric bill to keep that hangar sized space properly heated. But the parishioners mostly are unlikable twats you wouldn't trust to mow your lawn. You might meet a few friends there, but it really isn't all the peace and frilly fun you expected it to be. The thought of you actually going to a picnic with these people fills you with dread. But you don't give up on God, no. You shop around different churches until you find the one that doesn't beg for 120% of your time and money, and where the congregation isn't filled with assholes trying to repent for being assholes. You find yourself a fine old time and your faith deepens.

The reality is, God only exists because we put Him there. He doesn't bless certain churches with His holy presence and leave the other's out in the cold. Why should He pick and choose? Some places are warm and cuddly, other's aren't. And with a sufficient amount of experience in these things, you can pick out the ones immediately which ones will be cool and which ones won't. Because it's the people that make a church, a community what it is, not God. They could be sitting around celebrating stewed carrots and you'd likely find the same if not a better distribution of cool people and shitheads. God just doesn't seem to want to grace us with His presence. And it's a real shame, too.

Well, my mom was Christian, but we didn't talk about it much. She regrets it now.

The reason everyone isn't Christian, is because there's only so much hokum people can take.
Like I said, some people just dont want to.

Well, why aren't you living in one of those places? If it's all love and peace and cookies as you say? Point is, I'm sure these places exist, but if God really existed, it would all be like that. Because I know what the power of personality can do, and if God existed, we really would.

Is a Babe { infant or toddler } capable of existing w/o any assistance.?
Of course not.They are uniquely dependent on someone or others
for subsistence.
The same with Belief in a higher calling.
Presumably as we age and mature,our life experience has taught
us many things.What to watch-out for.What are good and bad
signs.Who or who not to envelop our trust.
So it should come as little surprise that some may want or need
immediate relief from the outskirts of things that aren't readily
seen of felt.
Somewhat like the Weather forecast.We feel better knowing
what the forecast IS,even though it may not be good.
We can at least prepare and take cover or seek better shelter.
Such is not how Life often portends Itself.
So to with God,Godliness and blessing.
I find it much more Intelligent and rational to believe that Our lives
are guided by some Great supernatural Good,than merely random :

Nothingness

The only problem is-that Christians have an urge to convert everyone to their way of thinking-as if its their moral duty to make us see the light.

If they lived and let live-the world would be a happier more peaceful place.

The only problem is-that Christians have an urge to convert everyone to their way of thinking-as if its their moral duty to make us see the light.

If they lived and let live-the world would be a happier more peaceful place.
jews work like that, look where it got them:(

jews work like that, look where it got them:(
Yeah-a western economy and the biggest military in the world for its size.

Yeah-a western economy and the biggest military in the world for its size.
6 million of them systematically slaughtered less than 65 years ago, and being driven from their homes 2000 years ago to be constantly persecuted...great trade off:rolleyes:

6 million of them systematically slaughtered less than 65 years ago, and being driven from their homes 2000 years ago to be constantly persecuted...great trade off:rolleyes:
Maybe they should have been given a homeland in Bavaria then.

Save a lot of Palestinians having to pay for it.

jews work like that, look where it got them:(


- " being Kind to those who are Cruel is being cruel to those who are kind. -


-- From the Talmud

If there is theism, isn't it by nature supernatural? If He exists, then He is by nature supernatural.Not so. All things that are are part of the natural world/order. God exists within withinthe natural order. Supernatural Theism is a school which has God existing outside of nature, "out there" somewhere, and occasionally intervening in human lives and history in some spectacular way. That image of God is problematic on many levels. But it has little to do with God.

The problem comes when super-natural attributes are attatched to what is, then it becomes unbelievable and rejectable. You do not reject God as an atheist, you reject the gods as defined by silly attributes.

The reason everyone isn't Christian, is because there's only so much hokum people can take. Believing in God, that one is pretty simple and straightforward. Now you add Jesus and a Holy Spirit, the Bible and tons of myths, and it all gets to be a tad bit much... ...God just doesn't seem to want to grace us with His presence. And it's a real shame, too."God" graces you everyday, but because you have been so convinced by some schools of Christianity, et al, that it has something to do with "belief," you cannot see it. Anything the head cannot accept is unlikely to be valued in the heart. And a "Faith" that is based on belief is unconvincing.

That, however, has nothing to do with the matter of God.

Not so. All things that are are part of the natural world/order. God exists within withinthe natural order. Supernatural Theism is a school which has God existing outside of nature, "out there" somewhere, and occasionally intervening in human lives and history in some spectacular way. That image of God is problematic on many levels. But it has little to do with God.

The problem comes when super-natural attributes are attatched to what is, then it becomes unbelievable and rejectable. You do not reject God as an atheist, you reject the gods as defined by silly attributes.
If God were within the natural order, He would be testable by the scientific method, which is an excellent tool to study the natural world. We've yet to come across Him, and it's very possible we never will.

You cannot claim that God is a part of the natural order without producing some sort of proof, if you want to be taken seriously here. You might well believe in a "God of the gaps," relegating God to those parts of the universe we haven't been able to understand, but that conception of God is every bit as silly as the supernatural variety, perhaps even more so.

If God were within the natural order, He would be testable by the scientific method, which is an excellent tool to study the natural world. We've yet to come across Him, and it's very possible we never will. There are many parts of the natural world that are not suitable subjects for study by the scientific method, but I will give it a try. Let me start by asking you a qualifier: would you say that hatred is part of the natural world?

You cannot claim that God is a part of the natural order without producing some sort of proof, if you want to be taken seriously here.What you might accept as proof is your own business, and not overly important to me, Nap, because it is not important that I prove anything. You don't need to take me seriously, but I'm discussing a concept you've likely not considered. The choice to examine is up to you.
You might well believe in a "God of the gaps," relegating God to those parts of the universe we haven't been able to understand, but that conception of God is every bit as silly as the supernatural variety, perhaps even more so.That would qualify as Supernatural Theism, in that it is by definition outside of any experience-able nature and proposes a god who is somewhere "out there."

There are many parts of the natural world that are not suitable subjects for study by the scientific method, but I will give it a try. Let me start by asking you a qualifier: would you say that hatred is part of the natural world?
Only as much as it can be scientifically studied. Hatred as a concept is more useful as a literary device than it is as a rigorous description of a mental state.

What you might accept as proof is your own business, and not overly important to me, Nap, because it is not important that I prove anything. You don't need to take me seriously, but I'm discussing a concept you've likely not considered. The choice to examine is up to you.
Don't pull the old, "proof is subjective" garbage on me. It's an incredibly disingenuous tack to take. If Johnny Cochrane had made the argument, "Well, what does proof mean?" not even he could have gotten OJ off.

That would qualify as Supernatural Theism, in that it is by definition outside of any experience-able nature and proposes a god who is somewhere "out there."
No. It postulates a god that is inside experiential nature, just that we haven't got the tools necessary to find Him. Scientists postulate something called "dark matter" to explain all of the unobserved matter that is required to make our theories of it work. It isn't supernatural, just unexplained. Maybe it's God?

Only as much as it can be scientifically studied. Hatred as a concept is more useful as a literary device than it is as a rigorous description of a mental state.More simply then: does hatred exist in the real world?
Don't pull the old, "proof is subjective" garbage on me. It's an incredibly disingenuous tack to take. If Johnny Cochrane had made the argument, "Well, what does proof mean?" not even he could have gotten OJ off.First off, Nap, I'm not trying to get anybody off, or on, anything. You asked me the question about God, and I'm trying to answer it for you as best I can given your obvious unfamiliarity with the particulars of this issue. I want to start by saying that (1) it matters little to me how you settle the issue for yourself in the end;(2) what you might accept is your own business, that's just a fact; (3) you may set the terms of "proof" so that you can win some arguement with somebody who cares to argue with you, but I don't, because that's stupid.

If you think I'm less than candid in this matter, let me know know now and I'll not waste the time trying to discuss a notion you obviously are unfamiliar with. Or, if you are committed to the idea that there is nothing you might can learn about differant ideas, let me know that too.
No. It postulates a god that is inside experiential nature, just that we haven't got the tools necessary to find Him.So, that god is unexperience-able because we don't have the tools by which to experience him.
Scientists postulate something called "dark matter" to explain all of the unobserved matter that is required to make our theories of it work. It isn't supernatural, just unexplained. Maybe it's God?Maybe, but if so, you can bet it wouldn't fit with any good Baptist doctrine. There are many things which are unknown, or guessed at, or absolutely known which later will seem very different to us. Maybe you discuss this because you're bored and need somebody to talk to, maybe you don't really give a rip. Let me know; I don't like to type without there being a point.

More simply then: does hatred exist in the real world?
We can describe a state of mind called hatred, but until we can put it into a cognitive science context it will remain in the murky waters of literary psychological pseudoscience. If you need a hard answer, then no, hatred does not exist in the real world, any more than Beowulf does.

First off, Nap, I'm not trying to get anybody off, or on, anything. You asked me the question about God, and I'm trying to answer it for you as best I can given your obvious unfamiliarity with the particulars of this issue. I want to start by saying that (1) it matters little to me how you settle the issue for yourself in the end;(2) what you might accept is your own business, that's just a fact; (3) you may set the terms of "proof" so that you can win some arguement with somebody who cares to argue with you, but I don't, because that's stupid.
I am asking you to hold your ideas up to the same rigor you seem to demand of everyone else. You're the one that came up with the assertion that God is natural. I'm asking you to defend it. It's an interesting idea, and I would like to know exactly what you mean by it. It sounds to me like you're trying to evade certain lines of questioning by merely switching verbiage around, while still maintaining the spirit of the earlier verbiage. I want to know if there's any philosophical meat behind the changeup. Complaining that you can't explain yourself because I'm not familiar with the concept is quite silly. This is a message board, it was designed for just such a thing. You don't have to worry about my response to explain yourself, just do it, and if you don't like my response, simply let the matter drop. No need to build Rome in a day.

Or, if you are committed to the idea that there is nothing you might can learn about differant ideas, let me know that too.
Come now, is this really necessary? You're ordinarily quite sane and rational, why switch boots now?

So, that god is unexperience-able because we don't have the tools by which to experience him.
More or less. I'm trying to find out exactly what you mean when you say that God is real, but not supernatural. It sounds like you're stuffing God into the part of human experience normally reserved for literary or artistic modes of expression. Which, while intriguing, ultimately ends in religion being a humanist subtext, instead of humanism (along with everything else) being a religious one. You cannot ensure God's status as the most important thing in a person's life by classing Him right alongside Flipper.

If God is real, where the fuck is he?

There are many parts of the natural world that are not suitable subjects for study by the scientific methodI agree. Maths and philosophy pre-date the scientific method. Then there are other methods such as case study, the historical method, linguistic analyses and so on.

Theists sometimes complain that such formal approach presuppose no god. Damn right. If you going to repeat an experiment 50 times, or spend a year on an archeological dig, you presuppose the divine will not be interfering with the data you collect or why bother? The presupposition is warranted, and what's more vindicated by its pragmatic power.

So, in sum. There is no god. ;)

EDIT: Don't know why that stupid thumbs down appeared top left.

If God is real, where the fuck is he?
Quick question: have you heard the saying, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear?" If so, does it sound reasonable to you? Why or why not?

(This is not to suggest that you some how need a teacher, so don't spin down that road. Just treat the question as literally asked; that is all that is intended by it.)

Short answer: No. I'll explain why when I get back from work.

I agree. Maths and philosophy pre-date the scientific method. Then there are other methods such as case study, the historical method, linguistic analyses and so on.Sho nuff.

Theists sometimes complain that such formal approach presuppose no god. Damn right. If you going to repeat an experiment 50 times, or spend a year on an archeological dig, you presuppose the divine will not be interfering with the data you collect or why bother? The presupposition is warranted, and what's more vindicated by its pragmatic power.Sure. One of the problems Supernatural Theism must address is the notion of Divine Consistency. (Any literalistic Christian sect, too.)

So, in sum. There is no god. ;)What? Your leap was stunning! Gold medal!:cool:

Short answer: No. I'll explain why when I get back from work.Have a good one!

Don't pull the old, "proof is subjective" garbage on me. It's an incredibly disingenuous tack to take. If Johnny Cochrane had made the argument, "Well, what does proof mean?" not even he could have gotten OJ off.

This only proves how unfair and beholdin to peer pressure
Humanity and Juror's can become.Johnny Cock & Bull insisted,
almost daily that " this isn't about Race " and then disingenuously
played the Race card to the hilt.With Mark Furman { Police investigator}
and the " N " word.Cockran even wore a tie with the african color bands
of I think Kenya.Like what Jim Brown does,on occassion.
A 9 month trial took little more than 4 hrs. deliberation to reach
that wholly bogus verdict.
Where is it written ... Life is Fair.?

No. It postulates a god that is inside experiential nature, just that we haven't got the tools necessary to find Him. Scientists postulate something called "dark matter" to explain all of the unobserved matter that is required to make our theories of it work. It isn't supernatural, just unexplained. Maybe it's God?[/QUOTE]


************************************
So,you are Existentialist...correct.?

Fools, when will you learn to quote? Your posts are incredibly tricky to figure out...

Fools, when will you learn to quote? Your posts are incredibly tricky to figure out...

There was NO { " quote " } in that post.
Trust me,when there's a quote " I WILL " Parenthesize !

More or less. I'm trying to find out exactly what you mean when you say that God is real, but not supernatural. It sounds like you're stuffing God into the part of human experience normally reserved for literary or artistic modes of expression. Which, while intriguing, ultimately ends in religion being a humanist subtext, instead of humanism (along with everything else) being a religious one. You cannot ensure God's status as the most important thing in a person's life by classing Him right alongside Flipper.

If God is real, where the fuck is he?

I can't speak for Shiloh, but here's my perspective ...

For me, god is Flipper. And the water Flipper lives in. For me, god is hurricanes, warm summer days, dirt, and the coyotes that go after my chickens.

I'll add to that, that I don't consider my god to be "the most important thing in my life." Rather, my god is the most powerful thing in my life; the most influential.

It affects everything I do, every minute of the day, and is therefore something to always be cognizant of, not to be taken for granted, and to be tended/cared for whenever possible. Not because I think it might turn on me because of who I am or what I do (my god doesn't give a rip about the thoughts or actions of individual humans - none of this "VENGEANCE IS MINE!" stuff), but because I'm surrounded by it, and to ignore or abuse what surrounds me is just stupid.

I don't worship my god, but I sure as hell respect her. :)

Once upon a time, we were ignorant of the movements of the planets, and attributed things like meteors, and comets, and solar eclipses to some higher, thinking, supernatural power. A supreme GOD to whom we must be beholden so we aren't thrown into the pits of hell, instead of a supreme power that deserves our respect, if only that we may live through this flood, or this earthquake, or this firestorm, to see another day.

"God visited this plague of locusts on my house because I have sinned! ARGH!"

We now know that such natural events are not the result of some mystical all-knowing God bent on punishing people for not praying often enough or for uttering God's name in vain, etc. Unfortunately, most organized religions don't seem to have moved past that type of thinking.

And you know, I could be wrong. But I'm not going to get down on my knees and pray that I'm not. My god wouldn't care in the least, and I'm fine with that.

:)

And you know, I could be wrong. But I'm not going to get down on my knees and pray that I'm not. My god wouldn't care in the least, and I'm fine with that.

:)Crom! Help me today. If I die let them know at least that they have seen a man here today. And if you do not listen to my prayer to you now, to hell with you, Crom!

Btw, I will happily respond to you PM question, but I need a block of free quiet time. Stay tuned. If the rapture comes, you're free to blow it off and fly up into the air.:cool:

Have a good one!
I did, thanks! I don't believe in it because it's such a deliberately inscrutable thing to say. Either you have the knowledge or you don't, and people generally aren't as utterly stupid as you think they are. You simply do not have the capability to teach someone something, so you give them this piece of mealy intellectual substance to chew on until they somehow become, "ready." Rarely does a person completely lack the ability to understand anything, I can go from zero to working knowledge with a person who's never touched a computer in their life in a small matter of half an hour. With subsequent sessions, I could rapidly show that person everything there is to know about working with a computer, from basic usage of a mouse to installing programs to even a little bit of hardware knowledge to put it all in perspective.

As for life's "greater" understandings, generally there isn't anything terribly great about them. They're just simple truths wrapped in an awful lot of artificial mystery. There's a lot of these simple truths, but they're all relatively easily accessible. It's people that turn them into something mysterious, not God. So, no, that little bit of popular wisdom doesn't hold any particular appeal to me.

I did, thanks! I don't believe in it because it's such a deliberately inscrutable thing to say. Either you have the knowledge or you don't, and people generally aren't as utterly stupid as you think they are. You simply do not have the capability to teach someone something, so you give them this piece of mealy intellectual substance to chew on until they somehow become, "ready." Rarely does a person completely lack the ability to understand anything, I can go from zero to working knowledge with a person who's never touched a computer in their life in a small matter of half an hour. With subsequent sessions, I could rapidly show that person everything there is to know about working with a computer, from basic usage of a mouse to installing programs to even a little bit of hardware knowledge to put it all in perspective.

As for life's "greater" understandings, generally there isn't anything terribly great about them. They're just simple truths wrapped in an awful lot of artificial mystery. There's a lot of these simple truths, but they're all relatively easily accessible. It's people that turn them into something mysterious, not God. So, no, that little bit of popular wisdom doesn't hold any particular appeal to me.
I dont buy it. First off, youre comparing computers to the question, is there a God. Thats going to be something a little more then artificial mystery.
If thats all it is to you then its plain to see why you dont have a belief in God.

Secondly, youre telling me how one person can spread good will and God should be able to spread it every where and when I point it out to you that he does, you point out how miserable you think Christians are.
You do this, after I direct you to the possibility that people are just people and will think and do whatever they want.
So you cant really have it both ways.

You cant say, one guy spreads cheer and joy to everyone and then say, when people are around others who spread cheer and joy they dont respond well to it.
You're not making any sense here Nap.

I did, thanks! I don't believe in it because it's such a deliberately inscrutable thing to say.... ...So, no, that little bit of popular wisdom doesn't hold any particular appeal to me.It is perhaps overused, but could at least explain what it means, for me?

(Btw, are you using "you" to refer to me, or as a general reference to people.)

I believe I already did, and it was a general reference. If you're going to try to get me to buy into that inscrutable bullshit, I'm not biting. I want to know where God is at if you insist on placing Him within the natural order. I'm not looking for platitudes or mystic bullshit. If He's here, He must have a physical form somewhere. If there's no physical manifestation, God doesn't exist naturally.

:corn:

I discussed our conversation with a friend of mine who's really heavy in theology, and he agrees with me when he says there's no way to place God within the natural order of things and still have everything work out. If God is to be God, there has to be supernatural elements to His existence. Otherwise He's just a made up figment of our imagination. To deny God's supernatural nature is to deny God. I have often said that the entire crux of Christianity's argument rests on the divinity of Jesus. Jesus had to have done everything he did in the Bible, healed lepers, turned water into wine, otherwise the whole thing falls apart. You can't simply say it's all allegorical because otherwise religion loses it's primacy as mover of the universe.

If He's here, He must have a physical form somewhere. If there's no physical manifestation, God doesn't exist naturally.
Maybe the whole universe is god's physical manifestation...

Then again, He ceases to be God, and instead just becomes, "the universe." Then the entire thing boils down to the literary device of personification. One must be very careful not to reduce God to a literary device.

I believe I already did, and it was a general reference. If you're going to try to get me to buy into that inscrutable bullshit, I'm not biting.Well, you may believe you did, but you didn't. Try again. This is not about being inscrutable; it's about whether or not you understand the point of a simple maxim. Don't complicate things, Nap. Just explain what the phrase means: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

I want to know where God is at if you insist on placing Him within the natural order. I'm not looking for platitudes or mystic bullshit. If He's here, He must have a physical form somewhere.Electricity is here and has no physical form. So do many other things. Your entire problem in having this discussion is that you keep wanting to see God as some super sort of man.
If there's no physical manifestation, God doesn't exist naturally.See the electicity example. It exists in the natural, because it exists and everything that exists is in the natural.

Then again, He ceases to be God, and instead just becomes, "the universe." Then the entire thing boils down to the literary device of personification. One must be very careful not to reduce God to a literary device.
Then why try and compare him to a computer?

I discussed our conversation with a friend of mine who's really heavy in theology, and he agrees with me when he says there's no way to place God within the natural order of things and still have everything work out.Maybe he uses the term differantly, or maybe he's sharing his own doctrine (the most prevelent one today, btw) with you, or maybe he's not so up on his material and you just don't know it. I don't know, or care, really. He is welcome to his position; it's fine with me. I'm sure my dad would agree with him.
If God is to be God, there has to be supernatural elements to His existence. Otherwise He's just a made up figment of our imagination. To deny God's supernatural nature is to deny God.It may be to deny your definition of God, but it is not to deny God at all.
I have often said that the entire crux of Christianity's argument rests on the divinity of Jesus. Jesus had to have done everything he did in the Bible, healed lepers, turned water into wine, otherwise the whole thing falls apart.Wrong. When I start telling you the only way atheism could possibly work, you laugh your ass off at me, okay? Because I'm doing that right now at you.
You can't simply say it's all allegorical because otherwise religion loses it's primacy as mover of the universe.Are you asking, or telling?

Then again, He ceases to be God, and instead just becomes, "the universe." Then the entire thing boils down to the literary device of personification. One must be very careful not to reduce God to a literary device.
Why can't god and the universe be the same thing? The universe isn't being personified if it actually does have consciousness. I guess this is kind of like Hindu ideas, e.g. the brahman, dharma, and karma. Perhaps god is more like a force or an energy that guides the universe.

Crom! Help me today. If I die let them know at least that they have seen a man here today. And if you do not listen to my prayer to you now, to hell with you, Crom!

Btw, I will happily respond to you PM question, but I need a block of free quiet time. Stay tuned. If the rapture comes, you're free to blow it off and fly up into the air.:cool:


:D

Why can't god and the universe be the same thing? Perhaps god is more like a force or an energy that guides the universe.

:thumbs:

Maybe he uses the term differantly, or maybe he's sharing his own doctrine (the most prevelent one today, btw) with you, or maybe he's not so up on his material and you just don't know it. I don't know, or care, really. He is welcome to his position; it's fine with me. I'm sure my dad would agree with him.
Doubtful, but it is you who refuses to explain your position, not me.

It may be to deny your definition of God, but it is not to deny God at all.
Concepts require definition, especially concepts that purport to be a part of the natural order. (Art, and other ambiguous concepts referring to the products of human creativity do not require precise definition, but one does need to be able to discriminate) If you cannot tell what it is, and what it isn't, how can you say it really exists?

Wrong. When I start telling you the only way atheism could possibly work, you laugh your ass off at me, okay? Because I'm doing that right now at you.
When you're done laughing, could you explain to me how theism works with a natural God? Because sitting on your ass and refusing to say anything isn't cutting it.

Are you asking, or telling?
Telling. How can anyone take seriously a God that exists only in the pages of a book?

Why can't god and the universe be the same thing? The universe isn't being personified if it actually does have consciousness. I guess this is kind of like Hindu ideas, e.g. the brahman, dharma, and karma. Perhaps god is more like a force or an energy that guides the universe.
Star Wars theology? I was thinking about that, I suppose it could work, but science could easily put that idea on ice. Let us say that every possible configuration of matter exists, somewhere in a huge multiverse. How could you call it God then? Everything breaks down. Everything exists simultaneously, somewhere. The entire thing would so freakish that to call it a consciousness would indeed be a mere personification. Once we learn about the nature of the universe, and if there are any possible multiverses out there, religion is going to have to change or die. That's why placing God anywhere in the natural order is a short-sighted "hackish" approach at solving the inherent problems created by a supernatural God.

When you're done laughing, could you explain to me how theism works with a natural God? Nap, I've been trying to determine how to explain it to you so that you'll understand the explanation. But I'm concluding that I can't, because you won't learn it, even in the abstract.

You define what God is (for you), then determine that to be impossible, then support your conclusion by discussions with people who agree with your opening premise. No wonder it works so well for you. It's a double-sighted experiment!

But I ain't mad at ya'. I still love you, and will give 'em hell with you the next time a thug coward with a badge tasers a fellow citizen unneccesarily.:cool:

Telling. How can anyone take seriously a God that exists only in the pages of a book?Ask anyone who takes the Bible as literal history. They currently run much this country.

But I'm concluding that I can't, because you won't learn it, even in the abstract.
In other words, you just don't want me ripping it apart.

You define what God is (for you), then determine that to be impossible, then support your conclusion by discussions with people who agree with your opening premise.
I don't define God. To me, He doesn't exist. I don't need anyone to support that conclusion.

What I need is help understanding the idea that God isn't a supernatural entity. I was asking my friend because I simply could not get the idea to work in my head.

You need to define God, because you are the one who feels that He has to exist, if you don't want me to think you're just pulling God out of your ass with a big-ass pair of tongs. But you refuse to do even that. Any theist out there can provide a basic definition of God (creator and overseer of the universe) and what His nature is, (He's always been there, supernatural, benevolent, can appear in the flesh if he deigns) but you seem to be completely unable to, and worse, you pin that inability on me! How you can speak this with a straight face is totally beyond me.

How can you claim that your inability to answer the most basic questions about your God rests on my behalf?

Ask anyone who takes the Bible as literal history. They currently run much this country.
They do not claim God to be allegorical, they claim Him to be supernatural.

In other words, you just don't want me ripping it apart.

No Shilo's right, you use the same argument on us that we use on you and then call it crap when we use it.

You're not making any sense.

What? When did I ever tell you atheism is so beyond your comprehension that it would be a waste of my time to try to explain it to you?

Why can't god and the universe be the same thing? The universe isn't being personified if it actually does have consciousness. I guess this is kind of like Hindu ideas, e.g. the brahman, dharma, and karma. Perhaps god is more like a force or an energy that guides the universe.
That would make dark matter and dark energy "God". Welcome to 15th century science! If we don't know what it is, it's supernatural and sentient, or controlled by someone supernatural and sentient! :rolleyes:

I don't define God. To me, He doesn't exist. I don't need anyone to support that conclusion.

So,yer an Existentialist... Then.?
hell,if ya don't know mush about that field of inquiry than juts
shut yer yapper.

I happen to Like Sarte and Camus.
Although one man { Camus } is diffident and berate of being
linked to true Existentialism.Kinda like :

yuz
\
" Man,at bottom,is not entirely guilty,since he did not begin
history,nor entirely innocent,since he continues it. "

" Turning its back on skepticism ... humanity strives to find a
truth.It will relax when society has found an error that is
liveable. "

" Can one be a Saint without God: this is the only concrete
problem I know today. "

-- Albert Camus { 1913-1960}
Algerian-born French novelist.Nobel Prize 1957

That would make dark matter and dark energy "God". Welcome to 15th century science! If we don't know what it is, it's supernatural and sentient, or controlled by someone supernatural and sentient! :rolleyes:

Whad da you know about such perplexing universal profundity.?
Maybe you'd be wise to just concentrate on what kinda fresh
Hops to add to yer nexus eggnog .

What? When did I ever tell you atheism is so beyond your comprehension that it would be a waste of my time to try to explain it to you?
That part is messed up, sorry maybe I should have waited for the right moment.
What I said sounds completely out of context now.