We are all familiar with god-awful arguments here in the wonderful and frightening cyber-world. This (http://righteousresponders.com/smf/index.php) is a gem:

Some Atheists, for their own political reasons, assert that Atheism is not a religion but instead is the total absence of religion. This allows them to spread their Atheistic beliefs freely in societies which insist on "separation of church and state."

But this is like saying that "black," (which physicists define as the total absence of color) is not a color. The car I drive is a big, old Chevrolet, whose color is black. In common practice throughout the world, "black" is understood to be a color, despite the technical definition of the physicists. Likewise, "Atheism" is a religion, despite any technical definitions to the contrary.

If black is a color, then Atheism is a religion. His argument actually shows that black is not a colour. We all say it is, like we say the sun "rises" in the morning, but a moment's thought reveals it is actually an absence of colour. Likewise when he says "atheism is a religion".

On a different note, it's very telling that "atheism is a religion" or "athiests have faith" is the ultimate put down for some. They hiss it in accusation yet are the very people who spend the rest of their time telling us how wonderful religion is and how they aspire to faith.

Athiests aspire to (for example) evidence and reason, and you don't see us using such terms as derrogatory labels.

I think why atheists are often categorized into a "religion" is the ferver that many of the more militant types show. The passion of unbelief is puzzling to a believer. For example, if an "average" believer (not a fundamentalist or zealot) is told that someone does not believe in God... they are fine with that. If the atheist is as adamant and condescending as a zealot on the other side of the issue, then they tend to be categorized as such.

There are so many (especially on the 'net) that want to prosthelize and argue who is right/wrong... I think this leads to the "black is a color" syndrome. Both sides tend to overplay the influence and power of the other and show how their "rights" are being infringed upon. I guess I'm just old and tired of this myself. I tend to "live and let live" although I do enjoy discussing this issue... I don't enjoy pointing fingers at who is "right" and who is "wrong".

To use my old (and worn out) analogy... I hate the taste of green peas... but I'm not going to zealously argue that those that do are wrong or be passionate in my desire to see them eliminated as a food.

BTW Blob, you are not one of the "militants" regarding this issue. You always discuss/debate your points well and without the dramatics.

I think why atheists are often categorized into a "religion" is the ferver that many of the more militant types show. The passion of unbelief is puzzling to a believer. For example, if an "average" believer (not a fundamentalist or zealot) is told that someone does not believe in God... they are fine with that. If the atheist is as adamant and condescending as a zealot on the other side of the issue, then they tend to be categorized as such.I totally agree, and we can all think of people we have known for whom the labels militant or fundy atheist are amusingly spot on.

It seems religious words (zealot, doctrines, faith) are almost always a put down when used as a metaphor for someone's politics or general attitude. I just find it amusing that religious people themselves do this all the time too.

There are so many (especially on the 'net) that want to prosthelize and argue who is right/wrong... I think this leads to the "black is a color" syndrome. Both sides tend to overplay the influence and power of the other and show how their "rights" are being infringed upon.Agreed. Theists cherry pick the metaphors that suit them ("atheism = black") and atheists do the same ("atheism = baldness"). However there are good and poor metaphors, and I think the "black" one is so bad it's self-refuting.

I guess I'm just old and tired of this myself. I tend to "live and let live" although I do enjoy discussing this issue... I don't enjoy pointing fingers at who is "right" and who is "wrong".I've pretty much lost my interest in debating-to-persuade. However I remain fascinated by both life's big questions and those who profess to know the answers in detail.

To use my old (and worn out) analogy... I hate the taste of green peas... but I'm not going to zealously argue that those that do are wrong or be passionate in my desire to see them eliminated as a food.That's because secretly know you are wrong to hate peas, you have no evidence peas objectively taste bad, and mark my words I could refute you effortlessly, and one day you'll see I'm right... etc. ;)

Outside of a few lab nerds, we all know that black is a color. Check your Crayola box and you'll see.

Outside of a few frieghtened fundies, we all know atheism is not a religion. Head on down to your local 1st United Church of Atheism and you'll see.

A better description, IMO, is this quote:

"If atheism is a religion, then bald is a haircolor."

God help us if atheists ever do unite. As evidenced by the totally unprovoked mass murders of innocent people in Christian facilities in Colorado over the weekend, what the world doesn't need is a united atheist front on a mission to wipe out those who disagree with their beliefs.

Darkness doesn't exist... it's only the absence of light.

Cold doesn't exist... it's only the absence of heat.

Evil doesn't exist... it's only the absence of good.

Hate doesn't exist... it's only the absence of love.

Atheism doesn't exist... it's only the absence of God.

:)
SMW

We are all familiar with god-awful arguments here in the wonderful and frightening cyber-world. This (http://righteousresponders.com/smf/index.php) is a gem:

His argument actually shows that black is not a colour. We all say it is, like we say the sun "rises" in the morning, but a moment's thought reveals it is actually an absence of colour. Likewise when he says "atheism is a religion".

On a different note, it's very telling that "atheism is a religion" or "athiests have faith" is the ultimate put down for some. They hiss it in accusation yet are the very people who spend the rest of their time telling us how wonderful religion is and how they aspire to faith.

Athiests aspire to (for example) evidence and reason, and you don't see us using such terms as derrogatory labels.


****************************
An old college Buddy of mine,who graduated with an Art Degree said
his favorite color was Black.I had many an argument over that one.
His point was Black is ALL the colors.White is the absence of Color.
He teaches at an Art Academy,now.

We are all familiar with god-awful arguments here in the wonderful and frightening cyber-world. This (http://righteousresponders.com/smf/index.php) is a gem:

His argument actually shows that black is not a colour. We all say it is, like we say the sun "rises" in the morning, but a moment's thought reveals it is actually an absence of colour. Likewise when he says "atheism is a religion".

On a different note, it's very telling that "atheism is a religion" or "athiests have faith" is the ultimate put down for some. They hiss it in accusation yet are the very people who spend the rest of their time telling us how wonderful religion is and how they aspire to faith.

Athiests aspire to (for example) evidence and reason, and you don't see us using such terms as derrogatory labels.
technically, the sun does not rise, Earth rotates, but from where you stand, you don't see that.

if Atheism isn't a religion, Walter Mondale shouldn't have listed his as Secular Humanism.

All yuz Atheist Wannabees.
Religion is a Belief.Can't have a Religion w/o a belief in
some higher being or construct.
Atheism is a Non-belief.The Denial of Belief.
It is impossible to have a Religion based on such.

if Atheism isn't a religion, Walter Mondale shouldn't have listed his as Secular Humanism.Emphasis mine:

Secular humanism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that upholds reason, ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the spiritual as warrants of moral reflection and decision-making. Like other types of humanism, secular humanism is a life stance focusing on the way human beings can lead good and happy lives. More specifically, secular humanism is a eupraxsophy, a non-religious life stance.

The term "secular humanism" was coined in the 20th century to make a clear distinction from "religious humanism". A related concept is scientific humanism, which the biologist Edward O. Wilson claimed to be "the only worldview compatible with science's growing knowledge of the real world and the laws of nature".[1]

God help us if atheists ever do unite. As evidenced by the totally unprovoked mass murders of innocent people in Christian facilities in Colorado over the weekend, what the world doesn't need is a united atheist front on a mission to wipe out those who disagree with their beliefs.
Surely you don't want to get into a pissing contest over who has the most impressive track record of violence against those they disagree with?! Religion wins, hands down!

All yuz Atheist Wannabees.
Religion is a Belief.Can't have a Religion w/o a belief in
some higher being or construct.
Atheism is a Non-belief.The Denial of Belief.
It is impossible to have a Religion based on such.
atheism is a belief that there is no god. non-belief is uncertainty.

****************************
An old college Buddy of mine,who graduated with an Art Degree said
his favorite color was Black.I had many an argument over that one.
His point was Black is ALL the colors.White is the absence of Color.
He teaches at an Art Academy,now.This is the difference in using light or pigment to make/define the color.

atheism is a belief that there is no god. non-belief is uncertainty.A "belief" does not define a "religion."

This is the difference in using light or pigment to make/define the color.
then i guess it is a matter of perspective? we have an agreement!

end of discussion!

Surely you don't want to get into a pissing contest over who has the most impressive track record of violence against those they disagree with?! Religion wins, hands down!

I'm sure you must not base that last statement on the actions of Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Church of Christ, Episcopals, Amish, Mormons, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists or any other mainstream religions, do you? Surely you don't judge all religions by the violence of Islamic radicals, do you?

Throughout history, it's the CHRISTIANS who have been persecuted for their beliefs. Are you saying history is wrong and you're right?? If so, could you please provide some facts to back up that accusation?

:confused:
SMW

then i guess it is a matter of perspective? we have an agreement!It's a matter of the elements used to create the end "color."
end of discussion!Cute, I think.

A better description, IMO, is this quote:

"If atheism is a religion, then bald is a haircolor."

God help us if atheists ever do unite. As evidenced by the totally unprovoked mass murders of innocent people in Christian facilities in Colorado over the weekend, what the world doesn't need is a united atheist front on a mission to wipe out those who disagree with their beliefs.

Darkness doesn't exist... it's only the absence of light.

Cold doesn't exist... it's only the absence of heat.

Evil doesn't exist... it's only the absence of good.

Hate doesn't exist... it's only the absence of love.

Atheism doesn't exist... it's only the absence of God.

:)
SMW SMW are you trying to say it was an atheist that did the shootings? This was the church where Ted Haggard preaced at til he had to step down after having a homosexual relationship with a male prostitute in Denver who also got Ted his "meth" so he could go back to colorado springs and preach his hate about homosexuals. Can anyone say hypocrite? There is a evangelical jihad taking place in america and colorado springs is the center of the universe for the evangelicals so it is no surprise that something like this has happened. Preach hate long enough and your going to piss someone off!!! This church is directly influencing the airforce academy and they have certainly had their share of bad press for pushing their evangleical beliefs on the people that go there. It's a well known fact and this site can fill you in on some of it incase you don't know about it. www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org (http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org) You can read about what some of those good evangelical christians are doing there.

SMW are you trying to say it was an atheist that did the shootings? This was the church where Ted Haggard preaced at til he had to step down after having a homosexual relationship with a male prostitute in Denver who also got Ted his "meth" so he could go back to colorado springs and preach his hate about homosexuals. Can anyone say hypocrite? There is a evangelical jihad taking place in america and colorado springs is the center of the universe for the evangelicals so it is no surprise that something like this has happened. Preach hate long enough and your going to piss someone off!!! This church is directly influencing the airforce academy and they have certainly had their share of bad press for pushing their evangleical beliefs on the people that go there. It's a well known fact and this site can fill you in on some of it incase you don't know about it. www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org (http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org) You can read about what some of those good evangelical christians are doing there.

It's my opinion the murderer will be revealed to be a non-believer. Whether he's a confirmed atheist or simply a former Christian who's lost his way I won't venture to guess about. I never said one word about the church being free of sin and sinners, nor did I say I believe in their mission. Are you pointing to the transgressions of a church leader and their 'pushing their evangelical beliefs' in an effort to say the innocent people who were murdered DESERVED to be killed?

See, it's people who say things like 'it's no surprise that something like this has happened' who scare me. Like I said... hate breeds hate. And it seems to breed exceedingly well among people with no belief in God.

SMW

Like I said... hate breeds hate. And it seems to breed exceedingly well among people with no belief in God.
Nobody hates quite so well as those who believe that God has endorsed and sanctioned their hatred, SMW.

?

Throughout history, it's the CHRISTIANS who have been persecuted for their beliefs. Are you saying history is wrong and you're right?? If so, could you please provide some facts to back up that accusation?

:confused:
SMW




I can think of a few examples offhand, SMW--the Spanish Inquisition and the sinister Torquemada and their persecution of the Jews, the various pogroms in medieval Europe and even into modern times against Jews, the conquering of the Aztecs by the conquistadores....
tho an argument could be made that the Spaniards were motivated by greed and not religion.

And then there's the Third Reich. Hitler always claimed he was fighting a religious war and no other.

I'm sure you must not base that last statement on the actions of Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics, Church of Christ, Episcopals, Amish, Mormons, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists or any other mainstream religions, do you? Surely you don't judge all religions by the violence of Islamic radicals, do you?

Throughout history, it's the CHRISTIANS who have been persecuted for their beliefs. Are you saying history is wrong and you're right?? If so, could you please provide some facts to back up that accusation?

:confused:
SMWTake a look at the sqabbles between the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations after the Reformation. You might be suprised.

Or just picture the morning of July 3, 1863 at Gettysburg. Good Christians on both sides of the line praying to God for His blessings, knowing their cause is just, then slaughtering the hell out of each other!

I can think of a few example offhand, SMW--the Spanish Inquisistion--the Catholic persecution of the Moors (Muslims) and Jews--- the various pogroms against Jews by Christians-- in Eastern Europe throught the Middle Ages and even into modern times, the Aztecs being wiped out by the conquistadores, tho an argument could be made that the Spaniards desired their downfall because of greed, and not religion.

......and then there's the Third Reich. Hitler always claimed he was fighting a religious war and no other.

Ancient history aside, Ren... all the Christians I've ever known have been peace-loving people. Guess I just missed out on ever meeting any vigilante bible thumpers. And I think it's a stretch for non-believers to reach back in time to try and prove they exist.

;)
SMW

Emphasis mine:
tho an argument could be made that the Spaniards were motivated by greed and not religion.In spite of religious fervor and conviction, this always seems to be close at hand, huh?

Ancient history aside, Ren... all the Christians I've ever known have been peace-loving people. Guess I just missed out on ever meeting any vigilante bible thumpers. And I think it's a stretch for non-believers to reach back in time to try and prove they exist.

;)
SMWMany people in the world would cite US policy in the Muslim world as a religious war by the openly Christian (Methodist) Bush. Perspective means a lot in these matters. Your perspective re the Colorado shootings tells us something about your own willingness to hate, even in a vacuum of information. Luv ya.:cool:

Take a look at the sqabbles between the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations after the Reformation. You might be suprised.

Or just picture the morning of July 3, 1863 at Gettysburg. Good Christians on both sides of the line praying to God for His blessings, knowing their cause is just, then slaughtering the hell out of each other!
in HS i prayed before every wrestling match to come off the mat without an injury, it only failed once. i still pray for a safe return before i leave my driveway.

It's my opinion the murderer will be revealed to be a non-believer. Whether he's a confirmed atheist or simply a former Christian who's lost his way I won't venture to guess about. I never said one word about the church being free of sin and sinners, nor did I say I believe in their mission. Are you pointing to the transgressions of a church leader and their 'pushing their evangelical beliefs' in an effort to say the innocent people who were murdered DESERVED to be killed?

See, it's people who say things like 'it's no surprise that something like this has happened' who scare me. Like I said... hate breeds hate. And it seems to breed exceedingly well among people with no belief in God.

SMW Of course nobody deserves to be murdered and I resent you trying to say I said that. You should be ashamed of yourself. I said it was no surprise to me. You are obviously ingnorant about what has been going on in colorado springs. There are plenty of evangelical christians preaching hate. I use to live in colorado. Colorado Springs is the hub of evangelical christians. They have got into trouble with the airforce academy!!! What they have done there is dispicable. And again I don't know of any atheist trying to convert you. This is a place to debate not convert. I really don't care if you believe in one god or 20. Just because a majority believes in something does not make it the truth.

in HS i prayed before every wrestling match to come off the mat without an injury, it only failed once. i still pray for a safe return before i leave my driveway.Prayer is all good. It shows what we care about.

Ancient history aside, Ren... all the Christians I've ever known have been peace-loving people. Guess I just missed out on ever meeting any vigilante bible thumpers. And I think it's a stretch for non-believers to reach back in time to try and prove they exist.

;)
SMW

Most of the ones I've known have been peacable sorts too, including myself, yet--I've also known a few who'd happily attend a burning, say dinosaurs never existed tho the proof is overwhelming, and are just--should I say it--just downright terrible, abysmally ignorant people who I want nothin to do with.......I tell ya, those kinds FRIGHTEN me.

Emphasis mine:In spite of religious fervor and conviction, this always seems to be close at hand, huh?

Sadly, this does appear to be the case, in many demoninations/ sects--thankfully, not all. :)

Many people in the world would cite US policy in the Muslim world as a religious war by the openly Christian (Methodist) Bush.
it is-one that the muslims decided to start, now that they've made their bed, they have to sleep in it.

Ancient history aside, Ren... all the Christians I've ever known have been peace-loving people. Guess I just missed out on ever meeting any vigilante bible thumpers. And I think it's a stretch for non-believers to reach back in time to try and prove they exist.

;)
SMW Ok, how about the Jonestown massacre,faith healers(frauds),fighting in northern Ireland, bombing abortion clinics. killing and threatening doctors and patients at family planning clinics.

Ok, how about the Jonestown massacre,faith healers(frauds),fighting in northern Ireland, bombing abortion clinics. killing and threatening doctors and patients at family planning clinics.
Jones Town was a cult, I think we can all agree with that.
I'll give you the rest, because I don't think they can be narrowed down.

People are irrational and prone to do stupid things. Being a Christian doesn't make that go away. With more then 3 billion people claiming to be Christians on the planet, some of them are bound to not take it seriously.

Ok, how about the Jonestown massacre,faith healers(frauds),fighting in northern Ireland, bombing abortion clinics. killing and threatening doctors and patients at family planning clinics."The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) , led by Joseph Kony, operated in the north from bases in southern Sudan. The LRA committed numerous abuses and atrocities, including the abduction, rape, maiming, and killing of civilians, including children.

The LRA rebels say .they are fighting for the establishment of a government based on the biblical Ten Commandments."
Source (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lra.htm)

Ancient history aside ... I think it's a stretch for non-believers to reach back in time to try and prove they exist.You were the one who raised Christians in history, SMW...
Throughout history, it's the CHRISTIANS who have been persecuted for their beliefs.

Ok, how about the Jonestown massacre,faith healers(frauds),fighting in northern Ireland, bombing abortion clinics. killing and threatening doctors and patients at family planning clinics.

OK, how about the hundreds of MILLIONS of Christians who meet every week to praise God and give thanks for their blessings and would never harm a flea?

Sorry, but no way should the actions of the lunatic fringe (which BTW I am NOT saying does not exist) form the basis for saying Christians in general have a reputation for violence.

That's just another atheist myth that keeps getting perpetuated by people trying to prove how evil Christians are.

That's just another atheist myth that keeps getting perpetuated by people trying to prove how evil Christians are.Again, you were the one who first started the finger pointing in this thread! You claimed Christians were always persecuted and said "there's been a murder in Colorado, bet it was an athiest".

"The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) , led by Joseph Kony, operated in the north from bases in southern Sudan. The LRA committed numerous abuses and atrocities, including the abduction, rape, maiming, and killing of civilians, including children.

The LRA rebels say .they are fighting for the establishment of a government based on the biblical Ten Commandments."
Source (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lra.htm)

You were the one who raised Christians in history, SMW...

And I stand by my belief that throughout history, more people who believe in God have suffered and died for their believing than have killed others in the name of their religion.

Besides, my point is... MOST religious people are non-violent people. MOST atheist people are also non-violent people. My biggest concern about the future is the growing hatred for Christians I feel being expressed by atheists here on this board. If they represent the views of the majority of atheists in the world, the world is in trouble because HATE breeds HATE.

And IMO, it's mostly a one-sided battle. MOST Christians believe it's better to avoid places where atheists congregate... thus the lack of a representative number of Christians who post here. It just really bothers me that so many of the unfair statements made by atheists go unanswered... and therefore assumed the final truth by many people who never hear the other side's views.

I simply think that's kinda sad.

:(
SMW

Most of the ones I've known have been peacable sorts too, including myself, yet--I've also known a few who'd happily attend a burning, say dinosaurs never existed tho the proof is overwhelming, and are just--should I say it--just downright terrible, abysmally ignorant people who I want nothin to do with.......I tell ya, those kinds FRIGHTEN me.

Agreed Ren, although I don't think this type of behavior is associated in religions only. There will always be groups of like-minded idiots that attack others for whatever reason. Look at some extremist folks that organize hate issues based on politics, racial bigotry, nationality, and even something as silly as sports teams. Nature of our collective "beast", I suppose.

Jones Town was a cult, I think we can all agree with that.
I'll give you the rest, because I don't think they can be narrowed down.

People are irrational and prone to do stupid things. Being a Christian doesn't make that go away. With more then 3 billion people claiming to be Christians on the planet, some of them are bound to not take it seriously. Well I think the Jones
Town people took it a little to seriously!

That's just another atheist myth that keeps getting perpetuated by people trying to prove how evil Christians are.I am no atheist. I just tell the truth: a great deal of violence is in the name of religion, and Christianity is no exception.

it is-one that the muslims decided to start, now that they've made their bed, they have to sleep in it.Not in Iraq.

Agreed Ren, although I don't think this type of behavior is associated in religions only. There will always be groups of like-minded idiots that attack others for whatever reason. Look at some extremist folks that organize hate issues based on politics, racial bigotry, nationality, and even something as silly as sports teams. Nature of our collective "beast", I suppose.

Agreed 100 percent. Extemists of any ilk are too-----extreme for my taste.

Extremism in any form is dangerous, whether it is PETA, Jihad or Antiabortionists or militant religion haters (don't know of any groups, but I guess there are).

Anyway, SMW I'm surprised to read your views of people with another belief than yours. Do you view everyone who believe other than you as evil?

Not in Iraq.
it's just another extension. it's all related.

atheism is a belief that there is no god. non-belief is uncertainty.

A Religion CANNOT be based on what it DOESN'T believe.
It has to have a foundation of what it DOES Believe.
You can draw up a charter with what You don't want or
subscribe.

I am no atheist. I just tell the truth: a great deal of violence is in the name of religion, and Christianity is no exception.

Some things are worth fighting for.Like a Belief.
Would a good Father fight to protect his family if a burgular
or group of thugs wanted to invade his Home {Space}.
Or if someone was told what they could or not could not
believe in the privacy of their personal life.

it's just another extension. it's all related.
Iraq never started anything with the US. Period.

Iraq never started anything with the US. Period.

Thought Saddam said some pretty mean things about the US :)
Nasty little boy that...

Some things are worth fighting for.Like a Belief.
Would a good Father fight to protect his family if a burgular
or group of thugs wanted to invade his Home {Space}.
Or if someone was told what they could or not could not
believe in the privacy of their personal life.Invading home: yes.

The other notion you bring up is one of the silly things people justify violence with religion for. No one can make you believe or not believe a damn thing!

Thought Saddam said some pretty mean things about the US :)
Nasty little boy that...We were staunch allies with Sodamn Insane for a long time, all because he was at war with Iran. So much for standing on principles, huh?

Invading home: yes.

The other notion you bring up is one of the silly things people justify violence with religion for. No one can make you believe or not believe a damn thing!

The ACLU almost had the Public Believing that >
-- Merry Christmas -- was not a good idea and that
Americans shouldn't say it.- Happy Holidays - instead.
Well,last year the Public wasn't buyin that Liberal bastion of
Bias's bullcrap { ACLU }.2 years ago the ACLU mandated Wal*Mart
that their employees be instructed NOT to say -- Merry Christmas --.
I believe Target fought back,and wasn't gonna let the ACLU
demand thru Court order and lawsuits that the word Christmas be
stricken in Public.
How's that for an ex. of a Belief gone astray.

We were staunch allies with Sodamn Insane for a long time, all because he was at war with Iran. So much for standing on principles, huh?

Yeah I know, you guys actually armed them :)
Have a few Iranian friends, one in particular loves mentioning that point...

How's that for an ex. of a Belief gone astray.It's a great example, except that it never occurred. The WalMart decision was based on their own sense of the market place, ie respecting that they have customers for whom the phrase is meaningless. How would the ACLU have anything to do with it?

What's funny is that the shallow Right believes it was a big deal in the first place; My relationship to God and rememberance of Jesus' life at Christmas is none of the government's or big business's business.

Yeah I know, you guys actually armed them :)
Have a few Iranian friends, one in particular loves mentioning that point...I know. Or foreign relations, especially in the region, but elsewhere too, is a complete freaking mess.

It's a great example, except that it never occurred. The WalMart decision was based on their own sense of the market place, ie respecting that they have customers for whom the phrase is meaningless. How would the ACLU have anything to do with it?

What's funny is that the shallow Right believes it was a big deal in the first place; My relationship to God and rememberance of Jesus' life at Christmas is none of the government's or big business's business.

The ACLU is a Big Brother watchdog bully.They have filed and won
many a public sq. debate about a Manger/Menorah display.
They generally take on smaller venues or city where their
huge clout and backing can outswindle a smaller budget.
California has many examples where the ACLU sought out
small city's where Religious crosses or Icons were openly displayed.
Plus the case of that Federal judge who was ordered by law
to remove the Ten Commandments Statue in his Courthouse.
Macy's,Federated and other big chains also faced the wrath of ACLU
an it's Agenda.
" If the ACLU and it's allies have their way,said ADF President Alan Sears,
" future generations won't have warm memories of Christmas.Instead,their
recollections will be of cold,impersonal,secular 'winter breaks'".!

The ACLU is a Big Brother watchdog bully.They have filed and won
many a public sq. debate about a Manger/Menorah display.
They generally take on smaller venues or city where their
huge clout and backing can outswindle a smaller budget.
California has many examples where the ACLU sought out
small city's where Religious crosses or Icons were openly displayed.
Plus the case of that Federal judge who was ordered by law
to remove the Ten Commandments Statue in his Courthouse.Public venues, all. None has anything to do with Walmart, etc.
Macy's,Federated and other big chains also faced the wrath of ACLU
an it's Agenda.Source?
" If the ACLU and it's allies have their way,said ADF President Alan Sears,
" future generations won't have warm memories of Christmas.Instead,their
recollections will be of cold,impersonal,secular 'winter breaks'".!Christmas, in so far as it is a rememberance of the nativity stories of Jesus, is a personal matter and should not be promoted by government. Alan Sears is a perfect example of why.

A "belief" does not define a "religion."
Oh yeah? Since when?

Oh, and black is not a colour. A colour is electromagnetic radiation with a given wavelength. Any radiation, or lack thereof, outside the visible specter is perceived as black because the cells in our eyes don't receive any input.

Just thought I'd throw that in just for the hell of it :)

Oh yeah? Since when?Since as long as people have been believing things other-than-religious in nature. A religion may be defined by its beliefs; but not all beliefs are religion-making.

Oh, and black is not a colour.Why does it cost so much to get a 1960 Corvette tricked out in high gloss black, then?:cool:

Why does it cost so much to get a 1960 Corvette tricked out in high gloss black, then?:cool:

Does it cost the same with high gloss pink? :)

Does it cost the same with high gloss pink? :)
Wait a minite, Little Missy! Are you accusing me of having done a price check on high gloss pink!?:banana:

Wait a minite, Little Missy! Are you accusing me of having done a price check on high gloss pink!?:banana:

hehe
I think I would prefer the black over the pink actually :)

hehe
I think I would prefer the black over the pink actually :)
My neice has a jet black jeep with bright pink wheels. It is super-duper slick, I tell ya.

My neice has a jet black jeep with bright pink wheels. It is super-duper slick, I tell ya.

Well, black and pink is an awesome combination :)
I'd have the Corvette with two wide pink stripes front to back across the top then! :drive:

I want a black 1970 Chevelle SS, with either gray or green stripes...

Look what I found!

http://store01.prostores.com/butchsdiecast/catalog/70-ert7252-1.jpg500.jpg

Not sure if I like it tho :)

Public venues, all. None has anything to do with Walmart, etc.
Source?
Christmas, in so far as it is a rememberance of the nativity stories of Jesus, is a personal matter and should not be promoted by government. Alan Sears is a perfect example of why.

Do you have even a remote concept how daffy silly you sound.
Should Government allow Sports venues.Or Rock concerts.
What about halloween.? Basically Halloween is All Saints Day.
I guess if Government decides one Generation that George Washington
Day is fitting,but Oh Well,what we gots here.He owned slaves,
and some 3rd generation Slave Kin,have decided after a few
basic History courses in a Liberally run University that some if not
Damn every one of the Founders,need be made an example of.
Therefore NO More George *Washington Day.
Instead we give one to Martin Luther.
S'not the saint,either.




* " the indispensable man "

Do you have even a remote concept how daffy silly you sound.
Should Government allow Sports venues.Or Rock concerts.
What about halloween.? Basically Halloween is All Saints Day.
I guess if Government decides one Generation that George Washington
Day is fitting,but Oh Well,what we gots here.He owned slaves,
and some 3rd generation Slave Kin,have decided after a few
basic History courses in a Liberally run University that some if not
Damn every one of the Founders,need be made an example of.
Therefore NO More George *Washington Day.
Instead we give one to Martin Luther.
S'not the saint,either.




* " the indispensable man "Wow! Do I sometimes respond to this weirdness?

Does it cost the same with high gloss pink? :)
odd colors cost even more.

Wow! Do I sometimes respond to this weirdness?

I dunno.
Seems ta me,you're the one askin a question er yerself.

A better description, IMO, is this quote:

" As evidenced by the totally unprovoked mass murders of innocent people in Christian facilities in Colorado over the weekend,

:)
SMW

You have any proof he was an atheist??

No. She's bullshitting, as usual. The killer came from a "good Christian home." There's a thread about it if you go look.

Atheism isn't a religion, its a belief but not a religion. They are seperate terms.

"God help us if atheists ever do unite. As evidenced by the totally unprovoked mass murders of innocent people in Christian facilities in Colorado over the weekend, what the world doesn't need is a united atheist front on a mission to wipe out those who disagree with their beliefs."

I'm sorry, but as a history and archaeology major (who studies the middle east, no less), this statement is full irony.
The history of Christians is no better. Christians have killed thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people that disagreed with their beliefs. So, I sincerely hope you are speaking from the "experienced" viewpoint and not the idea that Christians are free of a dark past.

Atheism isn't a religion, its a belief but not a religion. They are seperate terms.

"God help us if atheists ever do unite. As evidenced by the totally unprovoked mass murders of innocent people in Christian facilities in Colorado over the weekend, what the world doesn't need is a united atheist front on a mission to wipe out those who disagree with their beliefs."

I'm sorry, but as a history and archaeology major (who studies the middle east, no less), this statement is full irony.
The history of Christians is no better. Christians have killed thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people that disagreed with their beliefs. So, I sincerely hope you are speaking from the "experienced" viewpoint and not the idea that Christians are free of a dark past.
do they now?

[QUOTE=Atrum Angelis]Atheism isn't a religion, its a belief but not a religion. They are seperate terms.

No,you double doofus are WRONG.
Atheism is NOT a belief.
It is a Non-Belief.One cannot be a believer in the denial of
something.It defies logic.
An Atheist is not in any Religion or holds any Belief.
They are deniers of what some believe.
There is a drastic and important distinction to be made here.
Put quite simply,The word Belief and Atheism are polar opposites
and incongruous !

[QUOTE=Atrum Angelis]Atheism isn't a religion, its a belief but not a religion. They are seperate terms.

No,you double doofus are WRONG.
Atheism is NOT a belief.
It is a Non-Belief.One cannot be a believer in the denial of
something.It defies logic.
An Atheist is not in any Religion or holds any Belief.
They are deniers of what some believe.
There is a drastic and important distinction to be made here.
Put quite simply,The word Belief and Atheism are polar opposites
and incongruous !

Wow. Insulting much.

Actually. They are seperate terms. An atheist's belief if there is no god. Belief isn't an exclusive term, as in to believe that something/someone exists, but it is also to believe that something/someone doesn't exist. Thus, Belief and Atheism are not polar opposites. There is no opposite to belief, because no matter what you believe, it is your belief.
However, some of what you said is true. An Atheist is not in any Religion and they are deniers of what some believe.

There is no such thing as a non-belief.

[QUOTE=Foolsworth]

Wow. Insulting much.

Actually. They are seperate terms. An atheist's belief if there is no god. Belief isn't an exclusive term, as in to believe that something/someone exists, but it is also to believe that something/someone doesn't exist. Thus, Belief and Atheism are not polar opposites. There is no opposite to belief, because no matter what you believe, it is your belief.
However, some of what you said is true. An Atheist is not in any Religion and they are deniers of what some believe.

There is no such thing as a non-belief.

***********************
" Non-belief " OR nonexistense of gods or theism.When defined more
broadly,atheism is the absense of belief in deities,alternately called
nontheism.Atheism is also equated with irreligion.
Yer kinda new at Semantics in Debate forum,aren't ya.
Maybe Not New.Butts Green.
Like Non-new.

[QUOTE=Atrum Angelis]

***********************
" Non-belief " OR nonexistense of gods or theism.When defined more
broadly,atheism is the absense of belief in deities,alternately called
nontheism.Atheism is also equated with irreligion.
Yer kinda new at Semantics in Debate forum,aren't ya.
Maybe Not New.Butts Green.
Like Non-new.


Atheism is the absence of belief in deities. Not the absence of belief. Yes, atheism is nontheism, where theism is the belief in a Greater power and atheism is not. Nontheism does not equal non-belief, because everyone has a belief, whether it is in a God(s) or not. Kind of like an opinion, everyone has one.
And no, I'm not new at Semantics in Debate. But nice try. Maybe next time try and focus on being less insulting. It's more Christian, you know.

[QUOTE=Foolsworth]


Atheism is the absence of belief in deities. Not the absence of belief. Yes, atheism is nontheism, where theism is the belief in a Greater power and atheism is not. Nontheism does not equal non-belief, because everyone has a belief, whether it is in a God(s) or not. Kind of like an opinion, everyone has one.
And no, I'm not new at Semantics in Debate. But nice try. Maybe next time try and focus on being less insulting. It's more Christian, you know.

Ok.That solves it.Atheists Belive in Not believing.
One can't believe in something they deny.
It's called ... Denying.Not Believing.
One could believe that the Earth is flat.
But one can't believe the Earth doesn't exist.
To say the Earth is flat,relies on the belief that the earth DOES exist.
N'cest Pas ?

This particular quibble over the meaning of the word atheist is starting to bug the shit out of me. Whether you believe or not, positive or negative belief, it all rings hollow. Who really cares, other than moronic theists who try to tar atheists with the brush of "belief"?

This particular quibble over the meaning of the word atheist is starting to bug the shit out of me. Whether you believe or not, positive or negative belief, it all rings hollow. Who really cares, other than moronic theists who try to tar atheists with the brush of "belief"?

Because it bespeaks the mentality of some today.
They wanna be difficult,just to prove they exist.
Which many an Atheist does.
Using conflated Default & Abductive reasoning that results in
Negation as failure. A Closed world assumption and Circumscription.
This does not bode well for healthy debate on First truths and
what I just pointed out.
They are some,who would argue,for mere arguments sake,that
2 + 2 doesn't = 4.Or that there is No Earth.

[QUOTE=Atrum Angelis]

Ok.That solves it.Atheists Belive in Not believing.
One can't believe in something they deny.
It's called ... Denying.Not Believing.
One could believe that the Earth is flat.
But one can't believe the Earth doesn't exist.
To say the Earth is flat,relies on the belief that the earth DOES exist.
N'cest Pas ?

It does. But thats because in your example the Earth is a tangable thing. We just have to reach down to touch it with our hands. The topic of God isn't so, because one cannot simply touch him, or in the case of many atheists, put him under a microscope.

However, you do bring up a good example of two beliefs. In the early 15th century, the idea that the Earth was round was inconcievable. But there was physical evidence to prove it was, or rather is.

Its like the topic of evolution. Now, remember, not all evolutionists are atheist. There is a growing number of Christians who believe God's plan was evolution, sort of seeing God as the Divine Scientist. Now, some believe God created man on the sixth day, in a single wave of His hand. Others believe were evolved from goo to small mammal to ape to human (again, either by natural evolution or Divine Plan). These are two beliefs held by people that are intangible.

Think of it this way:
Atheists believe that there isn't someone/something out there.
Theists believe that there is someone/something out there.
These are beliefs.

WHO a theist believes is out there is a Religion.

A religion is a belief, but not all beliefs are religions.

As a participant in such a debate, it speaks to your mentality too.

Because it bespeaks the mentality of some today.
They wanna be difficult,just to prove they exist.
Which many an Atheist does.
Using conflated Default & Abductive reasoning that results in
Negation as failure. A Closed world assumption and Circumscription.
This does not bode well for healthy debate on First truths and
what I just pointed out.
They are some,who would argue,for mere arguments sake,that
2 + 2 doesn't = 4.Or that there is No Earth.


I'm going to guess from this comment that you assume that I'm an Atheist, no?

[QUOTE=Foolsworth]

It does. But thats because in your example the Earth is a tangable thing. We just have to reach down to touch it with our hands. The topic of God isn't so, because one cannot simply touch him, or in the case of many atheists, put him under a microscope.

However, you do bring up a good example of two beliefs. In the early 15th century, the idea that the Earth was round was inconcievable. But there was physical evidence to prove it was, or rather is.

Its like the topic of evolution. Now, remember, not all evolutionists are atheist. There is a growing number of Christians who believe God's plan was evolution, sort of seeing God as the Divine Scientist. Now, some believe God created man on the sixth day, in a single wave of His hand. Others believe were evolved from goo to small mammal to ape to human (again, either by natural evolution or Divine Plan). These are two beliefs held by people that are intangible.

Think of it this way:
Atheists believe that there isn't someone/something out there.
Theists believe that there is someone/something out there.
These are beliefs.

WHO a theist believes is out there is a Religion.

A religion is a belief, but not all beliefs are religions.

The core indisputable definition of Belief is :

- Mental acceptance and conviction in the Truth,actuality or
validity of something.
- any cognitive content held as true.
- an unshakable belief in something w/o need for proof or evidence.

How can someone or an Atheist belief in something that they admit
does not exist.That is not belief.

Do Martians Exist.? Yes,No or Maybe.
One saying NO,doesn't hold a belief that Martians Don't Exist.
They just admit that Martians Don't exist.
There is no belief involved.
If one makes the argument No,I don't believe Martians Exist
then how can one have belief in something NOT even existing.
One can't believe in somethin NOT existing.
A belief is an assertion.One cannot assert something that doesn't
exist.
To run about insisting ... I'm a Believer There Are No Martians !
Is rudimentary silliness.

Meditationes de prima philosophia {1629-1639}

" What is there,then,that can be esteemed true? Perhaps this
only,that there is absolutely nothing certain. "

-- Rene Descartes

[QUOTE=Atrum Angelis]

Ok.That solves it.Atheists Belive in Not believing.
One can't believe in something they deny.
It's called ... Denying.Not Believing.
One could believe that the Earth is flat.
But one can't believe the Earth doesn't exist.
To say the Earth is flat,relies on the belief that the earth DOES exist.
N'cest Pas ?

ahhhh actually, no! You are saying that atheists "recognize" god, but decide on NOT believing in it (denying in your words). If you don't see the failed logic in that then think again. Atheists believe that there IS NOTHING TO "RECOGNIZE" so the don't have to believe or NOT believe. It does not exist! Get it?

[QUOTE=Foolsworth]

ahhhh actually, no! You are saying that atheists "recognize" god, but decide on NOT believing in it (denying in your words). If you don't see the failed logic in that then think again. Atheists believe that there IS NOTHING TO "RECOGNIZE" so the don't have to believe or NOT believe. It does not exist! Get it?

*********************************
This entire debate hinges on the word " Believe " or " Belief ".
Up until recently the Definition of an Atheist NEVER had the
word " Believe " or Belief associated.Now it has " Disbelief ".
An Atheist DOES NOT Believe.That is the whole point.
They Deny.
Just like an Agnostic .... DOUBTS.
Even when asserting that an Atheist has " Disbelief " how can it be
both.That an Atheist "Believes" something,while at the same time is
Defined as " Disbelief " ?.
Semantically,you Dweebs are just dat.
Just a bunch a soggy Dweebs.

[QUOTE=MeskDXB]

*********************************
This entire debate hinges on the word " Believe " or " Belief ".
Up until recently the Definition of an Atheist NEVER had the
word " Believe " or Belief associated.Now it has " Disbelief ".
An Atheist DOES NOT Believe.That is the whole point.
They Deny.
Just like an Agnostic .... DOUBTS.
Even when asserting that an Atheist has " Disbelief " how can it be
both.That an Atheist "Believes" something,while at the same time is
Defined as " Disbelief " ?.
Semantically,you Dweebs are just dat.
Just a bunch a soggy Dweebs.

We're the dweebs? You are putting faith in some mumbo-jumbo superstition that will change in a few thousand maybe a few hundred years anyway!!

We're the dweebs? You are putting faith in some mumbo-jumbo superstition that will change in a few thousand maybe a few hundred years anyway!!
lol a few hundred or a few thousand. In a few thousand years, there may not even be a human race. Much less a religion. You simply have no idea what will happen a few hundred or a few thousand years from now.

There is no such thing as a non-belief.

There is Agnosticism.

lol a few hundred or a few thousand. In a few thousand years, there may not even be a human race. Much less a religion. You simply have no idea what will happen a few hundred or a few thousand years from now.


exactly and neither do you nor your book! All religions come and go..and so will the current ones... sorry to tell you but true. All throughout time (and even now) people have thought that "we have the RIGHT and REAL religion".

This too shall pass.

exactly and neither do you nor your book! All religions come and go..and so will the current ones... sorry to tell you but true. All throughout time (and even now) people have thought that "we have the RIGHT and REAL religion".

This too shall pass.

What if yer wrong.?
I know that thought,dredges up the very bile,you subsist upon.
But,If you're wrong,then you and yer type have made THE biggest
blunder in the course of Humanity,ever possible.

Pascal's wager?

Pascal's wager?

Don't bee So Blase.



Pensees {{1670}

" All men naturally hate each other. " {#210}

Blaise Pascal

Pascal's wager?


# 418 ?

... - Wager then unhesitatingly that He is. "

What if yer wrong.?
I know that thought,dredges up the very bile,you subsist upon.
But,If you're wrong,then you and yer type have made THE biggest
blunder in the course of Humanity,ever possible.


Yes ALL religions say that! What if YOU are wrong? What if you were supposed to be jewish? or Hindu? or Muslim? or buddhist? Give me a break! Dude, sometimes you show flash of brilliance (i know i never do) but then you have been brainwashed from early one to believe this hogwash!

exactly and neither do you nor your book! All religions come and go..and so will the current ones... sorry to tell you but true. All throughout time (and even now) people have thought that "we have the RIGHT and REAL religion".

This too shall pass.
I'll get you! and your little book to!!

Oh I mean.. What?

I'll get you! and your little book to!!

Oh I mean.. What?

What do you mean "what"? What did you not understand? Don't TRY to be stupid! Or are you not trying. Let me try to explain again: ALL RELIGIONS BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE THE RIGHT ONE! Get it now or will you attack something irrelevant in my post. That seems to be your MO.

What do you mean "what"? What did you not understand? Don't TRY to be stupid! Or are you not trying. Let me try to explain again: ALL RELIGIONS BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE THE RIGHT ONE! Get it now or will you attack something irrelevant in my post. That seems to be your MO.

So,yer toatally bugged over Religions and their usurping quality.
But proilly s'not so mush over the merits of a Noble War,like
the one on terrorism.
Of course,I woodn't expect much in the way of thoughtful and
dynamic rebuttal to this notion of mine.
Suffice to say,that Today's generation is so slacker of meaningful
thought as to appear almost like a :

Eureeka

Or .... U Reek Ah !

What do you mean "what"? What did you not understand? Don't TRY to be stupid! Or are you not trying. Let me try to explain again: ALL RELIGIONS BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE THE RIGHT ONE! Get it now or will you attack something irrelevant in my post. That seems to be your MO.
Oh man, that was funny, let me try that again.

Oh I mean.. What?