http://msnbc.msn.com/id/21566280/ :thumbs:

What a bunch of nuts. I wouldn't really call them a 'church' though... since their whole congregation is made up of family members.

Like I said... bunch of nuts.

SMW

What a bunch of nuts. I wouldn't really call them a 'church' though... since their whole congregation is made up of family members.

Like I said... bunch of nuts.

SMW I'm surprised that their church has never been bombed!!!

What a bunch of nuts. I wouldn't really call them a 'church' though... since their whole congregation is made up of family members.

Like I said... bunch of nuts.

SMW

Yes indeedy Ma'am they shore nuff are out of the gords,respectively.
But No Mores.That Military Funeral they Picketed was involved in a
Civil Lawsuit that resulted in a total of $ 10 Million in damages.
Since the Phelps have roughly One Million in worth,they'll go after that.
One or both of the Phelp Daughter is an Attornry or has Law License.
That's why they pull this Picket crap at Funerals.
They feel the Law and or Constitutional Rights are on their side.
They basically have a distemper grudge against Homosexuality.

Yes indeedy Ma'am they shore nuff are out of the gords,respectively.
But No Mores.That Military Funeral they Picketed was involved in a
Civil Lawsuit that resulted in a total of $ 10 Million in damages.
Since the Phelps have roughly One Million in worth,they'll go after that.
One or both of the Phelp Daughter is an Attornry or has Law License.
That's why they pull this Picket crap at Funerals.
They feel the Law and or Constitutional Rights are on their side.
They basically have a distemper grudge against Homosexuality.

Hopefully one of the Phelp's grandkids will come out as homosexual. Would be kinda entertaining to watch a church stone one of their own family members to death, wouldn't it?

Another group that hides behind the 1st Amendment.

You may hate the Phelp clan and their church but fining people more than ten million dollars for picketing, no matter how distastful it was sets a scarey precident. It is a form of censorship. I don't like what you say so I will fine you by an amount large enough to ruin you. This time it was Phelps. Next time it might be abortion protestors. After that it might even be Global Warming advocates. If we don't protect the freedom of speech of even the most odious of speech none of our speech is protected.

You may hate the Phelp clan and their church but fining people more than ten million dollars for picketing, no matter how distastful it was sets a scarey precident. It is a form of censorship. I don't like what you say so I will fine you by an amount large enough to ruin you. This time it was Phelps. Next time it might be abortion protestors. After that it might even be Global Warming advocates. If we don't protect the freedom of speech of even the most odious of speech none of our speech is protected.

Frogger, obviously the key here is that your freedom of speech only extends to the point where you start hurting other people. If you don't believe that, stand in the middle of an airport and yell I HAVE A BOMB!

I'm fairly sure you'd feel a little less compassionate if it was your dead loved one they were chanting over.

You may hate the Phelp clan and their church but fining people more than ten million dollars for picketing, no matter how distastful it was sets a scarey precident. It is a form of censorship. I don't like what you say so I will fine you by an amount large enough to ruin you. This time it was Phelps. Next time it might be abortion protestors. After that it might even be Global Warming advocates. If we don't protect the freedom of speech of even the most odious of speech none of our speech is protected.

[Emph. added]
This wasn't a fine, Frogger. It was a civil judgment, not unlike the classic, tired example of the guy yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. That man is civilly liable for any damages caused by his yelling "Fire!", both to the theater for property damage and to the patrons for any injuries caused. Phelps, similarly, is liable for any damages his protests may cause. Now, what I have a problem with is the amount of money this cost..."emotional damages" are often bullshit charges brought up in order to eke a huge amount of money from someone. Personally, my view is that Phelps owes the family the cost of the funeral...and no more. He interfered with their ability to enjoy their funeral, so he should pay for it. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Oh, and by the way, Fred Phelps doesn't really believe the shit he spews. It's a rather clever money-making scheme. Stage outlandish protests, provoke someone into taking a swing at you, sue that person into oblivion. Seems to have backfired on him.

Frogger, obviously the key here is that your freedom of speech only extends to the point where you start hurting other people. If you don't believe that, stand in the middle of an airport and yell I HAVE A BOMB!

I'm fairly sure you'd feel a little less compassionate if it was your dead loved one they were chanting over.

Of course I'd feel less compassionate if it was my deadlove one they were chanting over. I would go a punch them out one and all. This is not a case of an angry relative popping them but of a court saying you will have to pay more than ten million dollars for what you said.

It is not analagus to shouting fire in a crowded auditorium or shouting I have a bomb in an airport. Those shoults are intended to instill panic and the subsequent injuries that often accompany panic. These demonstrations are designed to get a message across. No matter how hateful that message the people have a right to offer it.

Freedom of speech is one of our most basic freedoms and it should be jealously guarded. The way you best do that is by protecting odious speech as well as popular speech.

I watched a documentary about his church (really, his rather enormous family because hardly anyone outside the family attends his "church") once...and they approved of it (which was funny cause they look like total assholes in the film...well, they really are I guess). Phelps is actually a disbarred lawyer....he's so scummy that lawyers refuse to call him one of their own if you can believe that! He has a daughter or two that's a lawyer too, and they have their own law firm.

Anyways, they got sued for "Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress." Such claims often arise from "mere words." As Borg said, freedom of speech does not protect you if you are harming people with your words. It sounds to me like this sort of speech rises to that level...but it's an interesting debate for sure.

I wonder what the damages would be to the Phelps family if the hearse "accidentally" ran over one of the protesters, and then "accidentally" backed up a few times.

Of course I'd feel less compassionate if it was my deadlove one they were chanting over. I would go a punch them out one and all. This is not a case of an angry relative popping them but of a court saying you will have to pay more than ten million dollars for what you said.

It is not analagus to shouting fire in a crowded auditorium or shouting I have a bomb in an airport. Those shoults are intended to instill panic and the subsequent injuries that often accompany panic. These demonstrations are designed to get a message across. No matter how hateful that message the people have a right to offer it.

Freedom of speech is one of our most basic freedoms and it should be jealously guarded. The way you best do that is by protecting odious speech as well as popular speech.
Sure. No one is suggesting that Phelps's speech should be illegal. Merely that he should be held civilly liable for any damages his speech causes. This is true of any speech, and it's why we have such terms as "slander" and "libel" in our legal system. Just because speech is legal does not prevent you from being held liable for your speech.

I wonder what the damages would be to the Phelps family if the hearse "accidentally" ran over one of the protesters, and then "accidentally" backed up a few times.

Lol, yeah! One interesting fact not covered in the recent stories is that a group of friends who drove Harleys to the funeral drowned out the Phelps protesters with a chorus of engine revving for an extended period of time....was a very entertaining part of the documentary about them actually.

Sure. No one is suggesting that Phelps's speech should be illegal. Merely that he should be held civilly liable for any damages his speech causes. This is true of any speech, and it's why we have such terms as "slander" and "libel" in our legal system. Just because speech is legal does not prevent you from being held liable for your speech.


Borg, there was no slander or libel. They didn't say the soldier was a bad or evil person, that he had broken the law, or killed innocent people. They said he died to atone for America's sins. They contend that our treatment of homosexuals is causing America to be punished.

You may not agree with that but that does not mean they don't have the right to say it.

The fine was punative to so great an extent because a warning is being sent to other unpopular groups that their free speech is not really free. In my opinion as far as free speech is concerned this is one of the most dangerous court rulings to come down in a long, long time.

is it takes an awfull lot of gall for some group { the Phelps }
to Picket with huge signs and yelling all kinds of firebrand
to those trying to have dignity and pay respect to a deceased.
Those Phelps nuts pulled this Shit at that Amish massacre and
other high profile events.
They're THE worst form of American Scum.
They target important Funerals to rant & rave and make a
scene.
I'd like for them to be Hung.
A Public Hanging.
And I'm serious.This kinda Shit makes the entire American
system seem kooky and displaced.The Phelps know this full
well.They play on the emotions of those at their most
vunerable and weakened.
I say,make THE extreme example of the Phelps.
Let them HANG and be done so in a Public setting like earlier in
American Folklore.
Maybe juts fer posterity sake.
They { Phelps } earned it.

Borg, there was no slander or libel. They didn't say the soldier was a bad or evil person, that he had broken the law, or killed innocent people. They said he died to atone for America's sins. They contend that our treatment of homosexuals is causing America to be punished.

You may not agree with that but that does not mean they don't have the right to say it.

The fine was punative to so great an extent because a warning is being sent to other unpopular groups that their free speech is not really free. In my opinion as far as free speech is concerned this is one of the most dangerous court rulings to come down in a long, long time.
Frogger, read what I wrote. I never said there was slander or libel. I never said they didn't have the right to say what they say. They do. Indeed, I believe jackasses and ignoramuses should be perfectly free to shout their diatribes as often as their black hearts desire; it's easier to spot them if they're ranting like the Phelps family does. And furthermore, I agree with you that the judgment (not a fine, Frogger) was excessive. As I said, I believe that Phelps acted intentionally to reduce the mourners' enjoyment of a product they paid for, a funeral, so he should have to pay for said funeral, but no more, and no punitive damages. My point is, Frogger, this was a civil (not criminal) ruling and Phelps should be held accountable for what damages his speech causes. Freedom of speech does not mean a lack of personal accountability.

We are pretty much in agreement, Borg. The almost eleven million dollar judgement has no relation to the damages caused by the pickets. It's sole purpose is to punish an unpopular figure and to make sure other people who espouse unpopular ideas think twice before doing so. It is a chilling assault on free speech.

The fine was punative to so great an extent because a warning is being sent to other unpopular groups that their free speech is not really free.What "fine" is it that you keep refering to? I see no mention of a fine in the article. This is a civil matter, not a criminal one, right?
In my opinion as far as free speech is concerned this is one of the most dangerous court rulings to come down in a long, long time.What "court ruling" are you refering to? This was a jury's decisision in a civil law suit, if I read it right.

It is a chilling assault on free speech....or a refreshing judgement against the abuse of "free speech" that causes harm. ($6 or $8 Million is intended to punish, hence "punitive" damage.)

What "fine" is it that you keep refering to? I see no mention of a fine in the article. This is a civil matter, not a criminal one, right?
What "court ruling" are you refering to? This was a jury's decisision in a civil law suit, if I read it right.

Oh ! so you to have detected a slight embarrasing waylay
of facts by The Frogman.Isn't it ruther cute the way he takes
a pretzel and twists it into a ritz cracker.
Of course I doubt it is intentional.
He's juts so consumed with his ability to interpret that he
forgets what the facts are.Or were.Had Ben.Will Bees.
Will ever done have Ben by the grace of God and the fine
tuning of Daylight savings Time.
Because Daylight Savings Time was meant as a Profit motif.
Longer days {more daylight} mean more shopping,Golf and
what not.
I wonder what kind of What Nots ... The Frogman Cometh.?

Just a bit of uplifting music from the "church" of Phelps.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_yxionctY&eurl=http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2007/11/05/daughter-of-fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-church-founder-in-court-today/

Just a bit of uplifting music from the "church" of Phelps.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_yxionctY&eurl=http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2007/11/05/daughter-of-fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-church-founder-in-court-today/

Wow, they're terrible. :eek:

I like this one better:

http://www.eveningservice.com/Video

Wow, they're terrible. :eek:

I like this one better:

http://www.eveningservice.com/Video

Oh boy, I agree, that is quite rank too.

Just a bit of uplifting music from the "church" of Phelps.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_yxionctY&eurl=http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2007/11/05/daughter-of-fred-phelps-westboro-baptist-church-founder-in-court-today/
I am embarrassed to have watched that link through. (But I will, of course, pass it on!):cool:

I wonder if a lawsuit is in the offing for theft of the melody. Or, murder of the melody, ahhh, ha, ha, ha!:lolhit: