The fact that 11 of the 18 wildfire victims lying in UCSD Medical Center's burn unit are illegal immigrants with no apparent health coverage highlights the daunting financial challenge hospitals face in providing long-term, intensive care for all those who need it.


PEGGY PEATTIE / Union-Tribune
Border Patrol agent James Jacques monitored the road that leads to Barrett Junction yesterday.
“These are the most expensive kinds of cases, but we don't look at these patients and say, oh, because they aren't legal residents, we'll stop providing care or stop changing their bandages,” said Dr. Thomas McAfee, UCSD's physician-in-chief. “It's part of our ethic to continue to provide this care no matter what.”

According to the Mexican Consulate in San Diego, the burn victims are from central and southern Mexico, and include one woman. Four are in critical condition. All were rescued north of Tecate last week, said consulate spokesman Alberto Lozano, and it is suspected they had crossed the border illegally before coming face to face with the Harris fire.

Four other people, two men and two women, were found dead Thursday in a ravine off state Route 94. Their badly burned bodies remain unidentified, although authorities suspect they crossed illegally before they died.

Those in critical condition may include a married couple from Guerrero, according to the consulate. The others are a 20-year-old man from Guerrero and a man from Chiapas.

With some facing a long rehabilitation, hospital officials said they realize many U.S. taxpayers don't believe UCSD should provide such expensive hospital care to illegal immigrants. But, by law, that care must be provided “to anyone who comes regardless of their ability to pay.”



PEGGY PEATTIE / Union-Tribune
Across the mountains between the U.S.-Mexico border and state Route 94, wildfires have burned the chaparral that had concealed the walking trails of migrants and smugglers.
Last year, San Diego County hospitals provided $619 million in uncompensated care, and an estimated 10 percent to 17 percent of that paid for treatment for undocumented immigrants, according to the Hospital Association of San Diego and Imperial Counties.

Burn care requires ventilators, multiple surgeries, round-the-clock intensive care and grafts from human cadaveric skin. McAfee said grafts can be grown from patients' own skin to minimize tissue rejection at $500,000 per patient.

Last year, the average cost of treating a burn patient at UCSD was $45,000 for an average 15-day stay.

When patients need long-term nursing care, said UCSD spokeswoman Leslie Franz, “we make arrangements on a case-by-case basis. This could mean anything from them continuing to receive care from us, or we might transition them to another facility in that person's home state or another country, if we can expedite that.”

However, appropriate care in a person's native country is not always available.

Esmeralda Siu of the Coalición Pro Defensa del Migrante, a network of migrant shelters and other services in Baja California, said rules prevent the United States from sending Mexican nationals home before they can travel safely.

“By law, they can't deport them if they are injured,” said Siu, who is based in Tijuana. “They have to be stabilized, and that they accept leaving, and that they are well to travel.”



AdvertisementMark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that advocates immigration restrictions, said that in the case of the 11 border burn victims, it might make sense to request assistance from the Mexican government or arrange long-term care in their home country.
“An illegal immigrant who is in Chicago and goes to the ER, it's hard to say the Mexican government should pay for it,” Krikorian said. “I think there is a plausible case to make for people who were sneaking across the border at the time of the injury, and clearly don't have any business to be there. We should tap the Mexican government to say, 'We need to share the burden here.' ”

The bottom line, hospital officials say, is that these patients need care.

“UCSD is faced with a real dilemma,” said Michael Bardin, a spokesman for Scripps hospitals. “Many of these burn patients will require care long term, and you can't discharge them to the street. You have to have some place for them to go regardless of whether they are legal or not.”

Several sources of federal and state funding can help hospitals recoup some of that money, but they don't come anywhere near a significant reimbursement, said Steve Escoboza, association president.

For example, the federal government provides $250 million per year for payments to eligible providers for emergency health care to undocumented immigrants. In 2005, San Diego County received only $1.4 million of that money.

A special Medi-Cal fund can reimburse costs of care for certain patients who can document strict criteria of U.S. residency, even if they are not in this country legally. But that fund pays for only a few days of care, or until the patient is stabilized.

Patients with severe burns may require months or years of physical therapy, medication and other forms of care. Sometimes these patients must be transferred out of the hospital to a caring family environment.

McAfee said that in many cases, Mexican patients who come to U.S. hospitals may have insurance through a Mexican family member. “If the patient is eligible for that, we will sometimes transfer the patient back to Mexico.”

Many times, however, the patient remains at UCSD, cared for with funding supplemented by other government sources such as Medicare, or payments from other patients covered by private insurance.

“We are all bearing the cost,” McAfee said. “That's the only way a hospital can break even at the end of the year.”

The Mexican consulate is willing to provide assistance to Mexican nationals who are fire victims, spokesman Lozano said. A woman who lost her home in the firestorm and wanted to return to her hometown in Mexico was provided airfare, he said.

The consulate has not received any request for financial assistance for those hospitalized, Lozano said.

A spokesman for the Border Patrol said the agency is held financially responsible for the medical bills of patients in the agency's custody. But it appears that the rescued border crossers are not in its custody.

UCSD officials said no Border Patrol agents are stationed at the hospital.

Immigration officials do not have the sort of formal relationship with hospitals that they do with prisons, said Lauren Mack of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Agents routinely scout prisons and jails for deportable individuals.

“We don't get calls from the hospital to pick them up,” she said.

Mack said the arresting agency, such as the Border Patrol, is typically responsible for maintaining jurisdiction over an individual it wants to guard.

Still, Mack said, even if the hospitalized fire victims are not in immigration custody, anyone in the country illegally is deportable.

Damon Foreman, an agent in the Border Patrol's San Diego sector, said the protocol with injured individuals who are to be deported is that “a doctor has to classify them as fit for travel or for incarceration.”

Foreman and other agents said that the priority during the firestorm was to save lives, and immigration checks came second.

“We are not sending agents to hospitals and going to everyone's sick bed and finding out who is here illegally or not,” Foreman said. “The Border Patrol doesn't do that. These people are there for help.”

Siu, in Tijuana, said the undocumented fire victims in the burn unit deserve to be treated the same as any injured victim of the firestorm.

“They have to treat them,” she said. “It is an emergency.”

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20071031-9999-1n31burn.html

There is no question that the United States should treat these people whether they are legally here or not. They are burn victims and deserve the best care we can give. We should not have to pay for that care though. Their home countries should be billed for their care.

There is no question that the United States should treat these people whether they are legally here or not. They are burn victims and deserve the best care we can give. We should not have to pay for that care though. Their home countries should be billed for their care.

Agreed.

It would probably be easier to teach a turnip to dance than to get money out of the Mexican gov't.

Its a sad day when we're talking about cost for these burn victums.Its obviously to highlight illegal immigration nothing more.

Illegals are part of society in S.Cal alway have been,always will be,it wouldnt be the richest region on the planet without them.

Maybe the healthcare Bill should be sent to Mexico City,or allow these people to pay healthcare,they obviously work for someone,bill them.

Its a sad day when we're talking about cost for these burn victums.Its obviously to highlight illegal immigration nothing more.

N9, Paul, it is not to highlight their illegal status but the fact that while they are not here legally we are expected to foot the cost for their expensive treatment while the Mexican government and the governments of the other Central and South American countries of which they are citizens effectively wash their hands of them.

Illegals are part of society in S.Cal alway have been,always will be,it wouldnt be the richest region on the planet without them.

Illegals are also a big part of the society of many Latin American countries. They allow and even assist them in sneaking across the border, accept the money they send home as a large part of their domestic monetary product and then abandon them when they need medical care. They are quick to claim them when it suits their purposes but very slow to claim them when there is any cost involved.

[quote=Maybe the healthcare Bill should be sent to Mexico City,or allow these people to pay healthcare,they obviously work for someone,bill them.[/QUOTE]

If you read my post you would have seen that I suggested their health care bill be sent to Mexico City or to whatever country they are citizens of. They do not obviously work for someone. It is just a possible and even more probable that they were in the forest area while in the process of sneaking into the country and had not been here long enough to get employment.

What a strange topic! 11 out of 18 in the burn unit TODAY (or whenever the count was taken) doesn't exactly prove anything. Cheer up, maybe tomorrow there'll be a huge gas explosion and most of the victims will be red-blooded Americans!

*walks off shaking head*

N9, Paul, it is not to highlight their illegal status but the fact that while they are not here legally we are expected to foot the cost for their expensive treatment while the Mexican government and the governments of the other Central and South American countries of which they are citizens effectively wash their hands of them.



Illegals are also a big part of the society of many Latin American countries. They allow and even assist them in sneaking across the border, accept the money they send home as a large part of their domestic monetary product and then abandon them when they need medical care. They are quick to claim them when it suits their purposes but very slow to claim them when there is any cost involved.



If you read my post you would have seen that I suggested their health care bill be sent to Mexico City or to whatever country they are citizens of. They do not obviously work for someone. It is just a possible and even more probable that they were in the forest area while in the process of sneaking into the country and had not been here long enough to get employment.Yes I read post one.
If as you say,its more than likely these people had just crossed into the US,then so.

Thats like me entering the US and getting hit by a car,I dont have any medical Insurance.

Theres a distinct lack of compassion here,if people are sick,we treat them,nomatter the cost,do you not agree.

Theres a distinct lack of compassion here,if people are sick,we treat them,nomatter the cost,do you not agree.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they ARE being treated. We still treat them, the point is that it's another problem caused by illegal immigration and we're expected to foot the bill.

So it comes back to money.

You cant blame people,legal or not,for getting caught in a wildfire.

Mexico has no interest in guarding its border with the US,what would they charge people they caught leaving Mexico with,leaving Mexico.

No,if it wasnt these people it would have been someone else,what if it was Americans with NO Insurance,do you think it would have got a mention.

Yes I read post one.
If as you say,its more than likely these people had just crossed into the US,then so.

Thats like me entering the US and getting hit by a car,I dont have any medical Insurance.

Theres a distinct lack of compassion here,if people are sick,we treat them,nomatter the cost,do you not agree.

Paul, are you being obtuse or argumentive? I said we should treat them. We should never deny anyone who needs it treatment.

I'll tell you what, Paul. Since you are so concerned about our illegal aliens why don't you pony up some money to help pay for them. Better yet why don't you get your government to pony up some money. Talk is cheap especially when you aren't paying one red cent.

So it comes back to money.

You cant blame people,legal or not,for getting caught in a wildfire.

Mexico has no interest in guarding its border with the US,what would they charge people they caught leaving Mexico with,leaving Mexico.

No,if it wasnt these people it would have been someone else,what if it was Americans with NO Insurance,do you think it would have got a mention.
I'm not blaming them for getting caught in a wildfire, I'm blaming them for coming into this country illegally, which is surprisingly enough, illegal.

To Frogger:
Frogger,I know that these people will recieve the best treatment money can buy,literally.

What Im saying is,these peoples misfortune is being politized.

That is wrong.

I'm not blaming them for getting caught in a wildfire, I'm blaming them for coming into this country illegally, which is surprisingly enough, illegal.Sure its illegal,but this is a medical issue,the authorities should go catch the people making money out of people trafficking,not the traffic.

Slap a band-aid on the wetbacks and send em home before they cost us any more hard stolen tax dolars.

Nice one Ride, tho maybe the plaster would make the skin fall off.

Sure its illegal,but this is a medical issue,the authorities should go catch the people making money out of people trafficking,not the traffic.You're wrong. No matter what you feel "the issue" is, when it comes to Illegal immigrants the main issue is that if these people were not breaking the laws in the first place, it wouldnt be an "issue" at all.

No Im right.
If a dog had been burnt it would have got treatment.These people are just that,people.

No Im right.
If a dog had been burnt it would have got treatment.These people are just that,people.
Paul, you've been told several times now that the people DID get treatment. Illegal aliens ARE receiving treatment all over the country. Stop saying that they aren't.

No Im right.
If a dog had been burnt it would have got treatment.These people are just that,people.
If its your dog, it gets treatment. If its someone elses, let them pay for it

Were am I saying they didnt/arent getting treatment?

Im saying its disappointing that medical care of fire victums has been politized.

After all,you cant really blame these people for wanting a better life in America.

If its your dog, it gets treatment. If its someone elses, let them pay for it
Hmmm,Americans seem to have a very 'Im alright mac,fuck you' attitude.
Very disturbing,were is the comradery,compassion for your fellow man eh.

After all,you cant really blame these people for wanting a better life in America.
I agree, but I'd prefer not to have my taxes raised to pay for their medical care. I know they want a better life, but so do I. I've been poor most of my life, I know how it is, and I want to keep my money for myself. Understand?

Hmmm,Americans seem to have a very 'Im alright mac,fuck you' attitude.
Very disturbing,were is the comradery,compassion for your fellow man eh.
Sometimes it's every man for themselves, Paul. Sometimes you have to worry about your own well-being so YOU can survive rather than helping other people when you can't afford it.

Hmmm,I know what its like to be poor.
I left school at 14, cause I needed money to eat,simple,no choices.

I dont see why the state of California didnt simply pick up the tab on this.

Politizing it is in poor taste.

Paul doesn't have much of a handle on what happens here. Ireland is a small island - smaller physically and in population than the state of Indiana. There aren't people - other than tourists - clamoring to get into his country, if anything, they're trying to leave. As such, our continual bitching about illegals probably does puzzle him. There are more illegals here than there are citizens on his island.

Were am I saying they didnt/arent getting treatment? No one has said they shouldnt get treatment. But the way you are phrasing your questions makes it seem you think that others feel they shouldnt get treatement. That is not the case.


Im saying its disappointing that medical care of fire victums has been politized..Can you name me a subject that isnt politicized in the U.S.? How else does anything get accomplished without making it news and then politicizing it. .


After all,you cant really blame these people for wanting a better life in America.
Sure cant. I can, however, blame them for breaking laws to accomplish their goals. There is a way to accomplish this without breaking our country's laws.

Thanks es,admittedly I dont know the extent of illegal Immigration in the US,especialy in places like S.Cal.

However,in the Republic here,Immigration [legal] is becoming a major issue,especially in education.

At the start of September,there wasnt enough school places in the Dublin area for all the kids who needed places,why?

Because Immigrants had signed up their kids before Irish parents got to the schools.

Back to US illegals.

I can fully understand a peasant standing in Mexico,looking at the lites of San Diego,only seperated by some WW2 runway metal.
Shit I would make a go of it myself,fuck the law.

Poor people want something better,its in our nature,the reason communism failed.

Fuck this, let 'em burn. :mad:

And Paul, Frogger's got a good point - why don't you pony up some dough and help pay their medical expenses?

Boy, you people are the first in line to give away everything you don't have, or am I mistaken? Well, your compassion is to be admired - I'll give you that, but your ignorance should be frowned upon.

No one has said they shouldnt get treatment.
I am.

Fuck this, let 'em burn. :mad:

And Paul, Frogger's got a good point - why don't you pony up some dough and help pay their medical expenses?

Boy, you people are the first in line to give away everything you don't have, or am I mistaken? Well, your compassion is to be admired - I'll give you that, but your ignorance should be frowned upon.
Well half thanks.

Lets get this in perspective please.

These are sick people,not some political toy,there are plenty of topics Americans could bitch about regarding illegals-where is your compassion.

Hmmm,Americans seem to have a very 'Im alright mac,fuck you' attitude.
Very disturbing,were is the comradery,compassion for your fellow man eh.

You know Paul, I'm beginning to get an I'm alright, fuck you Paul attitude.

You have been told time and again that they were given treatment gratis paid for by the American taxpayers. You seem to think that the fact that many Americans are getting fed up with illegals coming into this country and being cared for by us without their home countries lifting a finger somehow shows how callous and mean Americans are.

You come from a little pissant country that hasn't done shit for anyone and you have the audacity to complain about Americans not doing enough for their fellow man. Get off your fucking high horse, Paul.

These people came to our country illegally. They were injured in a fire because they were in a place they had no legal right to be. Despite that fact they are being given the best care available. There is no skimping on their care. They are getting the same care as American citizens who pay for that care.

I am really getting sick and tired of your constant harping and carping, complaining about everything American.

there are plenty of topics Americans could bitch about regarding illegals-where is your compassion.
That's exactly what we're doing. Compassion has to take a back seat when you've already given gratis financial help to countless people in the form of medical care they shouldn't even be entitled to. In short, the time for compassion has passed - we're getting used and abused in America, and I, for one, am sick of it. I pay into our coffers for ME and my fellow citizens (provided they're employed, of course) - NOT for people who've intentionally broken our laws for an easy buck.

All I'm saying is, if you wanna come to this country, fine - ring the bell and use the front door. Do it legally. If you have to wait, then so be it - wait. That's exactly how it works in, well, pretty much every other country in the world.

However, and more importantly here, don't you dare play the victim card if we get pissed and deny you American rights.

I mean, sometimes I wonder where the fuck their head is. It's truly perplexing.

Compassion times 100 gazillion illegal immigrants equals broke.

Paul, we're too broke to keep paying for this stuff and that's all there is to it.

If a bunch of strangers you did not invite came to your door, you might feed a few. And then you look out your front door and see 4 thousand more all standing in line with their hands out.

And none were invited and are trespassing on your property that you pay taxes on. And if you turn some away they call you cheap, racist, and not compassionate.

This is how we feel. Fed up and broke.

You know Paul, I'm beginning to get an I'm alright, fuck you Paul attitude.

You have been told time and again that they were given treatment gratis paid for by the American taxpayers. You seem to think that the fact that many Americans are getting fed up with illegals coming into this country and being cared for by us without their home countries lifting a finger somehow shows how callous and mean Americans are.

You come from a little pissant country that hasn't done shit for anyone and you have the audacity to complain about Americans not doing enough for their fellow man. Get off your fucking high horse, Paul.

These people came to our country illegally. They were injured in a fire because they were in a place they had no legal right to be. Despite that fact they are being given the best care available. There is no skimping on their care. They are getting the same care as American citizens who pay for that care.

I am really getting sick and tired of your constant harping and carping, complaining about everything American.
I guess its a pity your getting sick and tired of my posts.I suppose you could always NOT read them,if they bother you that much.

Your right I do come from a ''little pissant country'',so what. As long as I am allowed to remain on these boards,I'll have my say,whether anyone likes it or not.

If you have followed the thread,I did say that yes,these people would get the finest medical treatment in prehaps the world,all courtesy of you,the American taxpayer.

My point being,there are plenty of Immigration issues for Americans to complain about,making an issue of a few who are badly injured,isnt one of them.

PS. Ireland is the sixth largest provider of foreign aid per capita in the world.

Not bad for a ''little pissant country''.

My point being,there are plenty of Immigration issues for Americans to complain about,making an issue of a few who are badly injured,isnt one of them.
That's almost like saying if someone breaks into my house, then I'm gonna let it go, because I've got bigger problems to attend to; like take for example, the mortgage, utilities, and taxes.

It all adds up, Paul.

And let's not forget, while they're trespassing on our property, they tear down our flag and string up their own, all the while shouting "Down with the sucky USA !", or saying how we are really a part of Mexico because they say so.

And let's not forget, while they're trespassing on our property, they tear down our flag and string up their own, all the while shouting "Down with the sucky USA !", or saying how we are really a part of Mexico because they say so.
If memory serves me correctly, this country belonged to the American Indian first, not as a part of Mexico. If anyone has the right to stand up and ask for anything, it's the AI's. Instead, they choose to live in peace and not raise a stink about anything. And they ARE American citizens. And they know enough to get out of the way of a wildfire.

And let's not forget, while they're trespassing on our property, they tear down our flag and string up their own, all the while shouting "Down with the sucky USA !", or saying how we are really a part of Mexico because they say so.
Whenever I see that kinda shit goin' down, almost invariably, I feel a hate crime comin' on. I literally have to stop myself from pounding their head in with the nearest blunt object I can find only to envision stopping when I see gray matter seep from an ear canal. I get fuckin' nuts-crazy.

Geesh. Whatta buncha bigot stuff going on in this thread. Surely y'all are all smart enough to know when you talk about flag burning and shouting anti-American slogans, you're talking about a VERY SMALL portion of illegal immigrants. Only those the liberal media chooses to show on the 11 o'clock news so people like you will ASSUME all Mexicans feel that way. I thought most of you were smart enough to know that.

If you want to deny them citizenship and send them all back to their homeland, that's one thing. Blaming the whole damn Mexican race for the transgressions of a few is both unfair and un-American. Not to mention you all sound like a bunch of spoiled brats.

Shame, shame, shame.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/texrose752/twak.gif
SMW

I am not a bigot. I'm a taxpayer--an American taxpayer, and I'm tired of footing the bill for these freeloaders who fly our flag--you're right--but many times it's flown upside down.

Then when I hear this stuff about "compassion" or lack therof, and I think about what kind of compassion the average illegal--including Americans-- would get in any other country where they're dumb enough to let gazillions of illegals and malcontents riot in the street, all I can think of is a bullet, a blindfold and a wall.

PS Their "demonstrations" only prove one thing--that the countless immigrants who came here legally, waited in line, filled out forms, learned English, learned our history, learned our customs, and showed some damn respect to their new nation--were all stupid.

All they had to do was pitch a fit, call the natives already here spoiled or "Not compassionate", or the handy catch-all, bigoted.

Now, who are the brats?

I am not a bigot. I'm a taxpayer--an American taxpayer, and I'm tired of footing the bill for these freeloaders who fly our flag--you're right--but many times it's flown upside down.

Then when I hear this stuff about "compassion" or lack therof, and I think about what kind of compassion the average illegal--including Americans-- would get in any other country where they're dumb enough to let gazillions of illegals and malcontents riot in the street, all I can think of is a bullet, a blindfold and a wall.

As we've discussed before, Ren... I live in a city with a huge population of immigrants... both legal and illegal. The zip-code site shows my neighborhood as being at least 1/3 hispanic. And I've NEVER seen one incident of the type things going on y'all are talking about. Much less gazillions. The Mexican people I come in contact with on a daily basis are either going to work, coming home from work, buying groceries, or taking their families out to dinner. Sure, there's an occasional FIESTA where BBQ grills are fired up and music is played a little too loud. And yeah, they're not the best drivers in the world. But none of that makes them deserving of being bashed to pieces by 'red-blooded Americans' who don't happen to want them here.

You're not the only one who pays taxes, you know? They pay taxes too. With every paycheck and every taxable item they purchase... so stop with the drama.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... unless you live in a predominately Mexican area, you should be ashamed of yourself for passing along all the hype you see on TV. It just ain't so.

:bombout:

Firstly: I doubt very much these people burned down are tore anything,if as suggested,they have only arrived in the United States.

Secondly: I am not trying to justify them being in California.

Thirdly: The amount of money it costs to provide healthcare to 11 burns victums is pittance compared to what the Federal Government squanders everyday.

Fourth: Politizing these poor 11 victums of wildfire is dispicable.
Dont forget,when they are eventually deported,they will have a
reminder of California to carry with them the rest of they're lives.

Fifth: We're talking about poor people here wanting a better life.
Theres a fair chance the law has been used to victumise them for
being poor all they're lives, they have NO concept of it working for them.

Ive noticed that some of the posters who object to paying for these peoples healthcare have never once from my recollection complained about the amount of funds spent in Iraq.

Where is your humanity,what kind of people are yous.

Where is your humanity,what kind of people are yous.

Why, we suck. Always have always will.

It's the American way.

We never do a diddly damn for anyone--ever.

Read a European history book or even better--a Mexican one.

As a matter of fact, it's my own personal fault that Montezuma and the Aztecs lost to Cortes.

You're not the only one who pays taxes, you know? They pay taxes too. With every paycheck and every taxable item they purchase... so stop with the drama.


:bombout:

I pay a lot more taxes than they do. I doubt they pay income tax, property tax, or the state income tax. If they did, the Immigration people would swoop down on them faster than anything.

I also pay sales tax and all the other taxes they pay on top of that.

PS What paycheck?
They're paid under the table, 99.99999 percent of the time!!!!

Why, we suck. Always have always will.

It's the American way.

We never do a diddly damn for anyone--ever.

Read a European history book or even better--a Mexican one.

As a matter of fact, it's my own personal fault that Montezuma and the Aztecs lost to Cortes.

You guys wanna get your priorities right.

Go dig out the illegals who never work, but sell drugs,smuggle drugs,deal in weapons,smuggle people,are involved in racketeering, bootlegging, car theft
and every other problem in Southern California.

Then yes your 100% correct.

But 11 people lying in a hospital with burns,C'mon.

What a strange topic! 11 out of 18 in the burn unit TODAY (or whenever the count was taken) doesn't exactly prove anything. Cheer up, maybe tomorrow there'll be a huge gas explosion and most of the victims will be red-blooded Americans!

*walks off shaking head*

LOL That's a good one, smw

You guys wanna get your priorities right.

Go dig out the illegals who never work, but sell drugs,smuggle drugs,deal in weapons,smuggle people,are involved in racketeering, bootlegging, car theft
and every other problem in Southern California.

Then yes your 100% correct.

But 11 people lying in a hospital with burns,C'mon.The problem here is that we're speaking to illegal immigration as a whole. You're taking what we say out of context and trying to keep it at these "11 poor souls".

Last time. Yes, what happened to them is horrible. I wish they had not been burned in these fires. I wish the whole thing hadnt happened to them. It would not have, had they not broken the laws of the U.S. to begin with. However, even though they are criminals at best, they were given medical care as they should have been. Soon as they are healed, ship em out. Thats what every Americans priorities should be in regards to illegal immigration, and these 11 particularly.

The problem here is that we're speaking to illegal immigration as a whole. You're taking what we say out of context and trying to keep it at these "11 poor souls".

Last time. Yes, what happened to them is horrible. I wish they had not been burned in these fires. I wish the whole thing hadnt happened to them. It would not have, had they not broken the laws of the U.S. to begin with. However, even though they are criminals at best, they were given medical care as they should have been. Soon as they are healed, ship em out. Thats what every Americans priorities should be in regards to illegal immigration, and these 11 particularly.

Good point Havok.

We cannot keep paying for this much longer.

The problem here is that we're speaking to illegal immigration as a whole. You're taking what we say out of context and trying to keep it at these "11 poor souls". Yes Im talking about these 11 unfortunate people. My point being that their plight should not be politicised,and shown as some 'yet another illegal issue'.

Last time. Yes, what happened to them is horrible. I wish they had not been burned in these fires. I wish the whole thing hadnt happened to them. It would not have, had they not broken the laws of the U.S. to begin with. However, even though they are criminals at best, they were given medical care as they should have been. Soon as they are healed, ship em out. Thats what every Americans priorities should be in regards to illegal immigration, and these 11 particularly.Absolutley, these peole have/will be given better medi care than I probally get in this country.

As for criminalising them,is another matter.

As for criminalising them,is another matter.

They're already criminals.

Paul, you must think the streets are paved with gold over here.
Well, they're not.
Many many Americans struggle to make ends meet, to put food on the table, put clothes on their kids' back.

And they were freakin born here.

Now where's your compassion for THEM??

They're already criminals.

Paul, you must think the streets are paved with gold over here.
Well, they're not.
Many many Americans struggle to make ends meet, to put food on the table, put clothes on their kids' back.

And they were freakin born here.

Now where's your compassion for THEM??
Ren,

I aint disputing that a lot, a very large section of American society DONT live the American dream.

Americans work hard, probally harder than Europeans,as its harder to make a living on your side of the Atlantic.

As for criminalising these people.

My reasoning is,why bother unless its some legal status which must be gone thru.

Chances are if these people are NOT Mexican,theyll never be able to afford another attempt at reaching the US.

If they are Mexican,it wont matter as they dont give a shit about US Laws.

What do you do,apart from building some Berlin type wall.

Well, we're already building a wall, and not a day too soon.

i tell ya, Paul these illegals are taxing the common hardworking American joe into the poorhouse, or worse.
They keep this up, soon we'll be crossing over into THEIR country just to get some free grub. Cause we'll be too damn POOR to afford our own food...TAXED to death!

It won't be a pretty sight.

PS Many of them have been here for YEARS. If they couldn't be bothered to fill out the papers and learn some of the Queen's English then, they sure won't be bothered now. I've had it with these freeloaders and you'd be too if they were descending on your country like a swarm of locusts.

Well, we're already building a wall, and not a day too soon.

i tell ya, Paul these illegals are taxing the common hardworking American joe into the poorhouse, or worse.
They keep this up, soon we'll be crossing over into THEIR country just to get some free grub. Cause we'll be too damn POOR to afford our own food...TAXED to death!

It won't be a pretty sight.

PS Many of them have been here for YEARS. If they couldn't be bothered to fill out the papers and learn some of the Queen's English then, they sure won't be bothered now. I've had it with these freeloaders and you'd be too if they were descending on your country like a swarm of locusts.

The Queens English-Havent heard that one since I was a kid,refused a job because I didnt speak it properly,anyway.

I know what your saying,and I fully agree,but.

Who do you blame here.

[1] The illegal-who only wants a better life for himself.

[2] The unscrupleous employer who knowingly employs him.

[3] The state, for allowing undocumented people to gain public housing.

[4] Washington-were there is NO will to sort out the problem,for fear of losing their hispanic vote base,for being accused of raceism,or a combination of above.

It amazes me this issue isnt solved.

The American people have spoken,who the fuck is listening?

Whatta buncha bigot stuff going on in this thread.
Clearly. :rolleyes:

I pay a lot more taxes than they do. I doubt they pay income tax, property tax, or the state income tax. If they did, the Immigration people would swoop down on them faster than anything.

I also pay sales tax and all the other taxes they pay on top of that.

PS What paycheck?
They're paid under the table, 99.99999 percent of the time!!!!

You couldn't be more wrong, Ren. Only landscapers and day laborers and the like are paid 'under the table' and they comprise a very small percentage of Mexican workers. MOST Mexicans, legal or illegal, work for actual companies where everyone has taxes taken out of their paycheck. Now that doesn't mean alot of them don't use fake SS#s or only have green cards which entitle them to work and pay taxes, but not participate in the SS system. In the first example (fake SS#'s) they actually pay into an account that they will NEVER be able to access. And they DO own homes and cars and pay taxes on those.

Besides, my claim is not that they pay as much or more or less taxes than anyone else... including YOU. My point is they PAY TAXES. Everyday. Everytime they get a paycheck and/or purchase goods.

If you really think 99.99999999% of them just live off the fat of the land, you are sadly mistaken, my friend.

You couldn't be more wrong, Ren. Only landscapers and day laborers and the like are paid 'under the table' and they comprise a very small percentage of Mexican workers. MOST Mexicans, legal or illegal, work for actual companies where everyone has taxes taken out of their paycheck. Now that doesn't mean alot of them don't use fake SS#s or only have green cards which entitle them to work and pay taxes, but not participate in the SS system. In the first example (fake SS#'s) they actually pay into an account that they will NEVER be able to access. And they DO own homes and cars and pay taxes on those.

Besides, my claim is not that they pay as much or more or less taxes than anyone else... including YOU. My point is they PAY TAXES. Everyday. Everytime they get a paycheck and/or purchase goods.

If you really think 99.99999999% of them just live off the fat of the land, you are sadly mistaken, my friend.

True, that. There's a large latino population in and around Atlanta and they break a lot of $100. bills in all the stores. They can't all be working as landscape artists.

It amazes me this issue isnt solved.

The American people have spoken,who the fuck is listening?

No one.
Ah well, no one listened in 1775 either.:D

No one.
Ah well, no one listened in 1775 either.:D
You're pissing in the wind there Ren. Big brother is too powerful these days to be able to form any kind of counter movement against it. Soon as the movement was big enough to get attention, you would all be labled a "cult" or "terrorist" or "militia" and dealt with.

.

If you really think 99.99999999% of them just live off the fat of the land, you are sadly mistaken, my friend.

I disagree.
According to this report, the cost of illegals in one state alone--California--is 10 billion dollars annually.

that
is
10
BILLION
US Dollars
a
Year.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

You're pissing in the wind there Ren. Big brother is too powerful these days to be able to form any kind of counter movement against it. Soon as the movement was big enough to get attention, you would all be labled a "cult" or "terrorist" or "militia" and dealt with.

Ah, crap.
Darn.

Well, we'll see. :eek:

Paul, I do care about other things the government spends money on (including and ESPECIALLY Iraq). I want the government to spend less money on everything.

And SMW, you seem to be all for the government paying for illegal immigrants' health care, but you don't want the government paying for the health care of U.S. citizens who can't afford it. Seems a little contradictory to me. Also, I never said that I wanted to beat up illegal immigrant, and I never claimed that all immigrants hate America or fly our flag upside down or whatever (personally I don't care what they say). They should just get out. There are plenty of legal immigrants, so it's not as though coming here legally is impossible...

The Queens English-Havent heard that one since I was a kid,refused a job because I didnt speak it properly,anyway.

I know what your saying,and I fully agree,but.

Who do you blame here.

[1] The illegal-who only wants a better life for himself.

[2] The unscrupleous employer who knowingly employs him.

[3] The state, for allowing undocumented people to gain public housing.

[4] Washington-were there is NO will to sort out the problem,for fear of losing their hispanic vote base,for being accused of raceism,or a combination of above.

It amazes me this issue isnt solved.

The American people have spoken,who the fuck is listening?
I blame first and foremost, the government for not doing anything before now. Employers who knowingly hire illegals, and there have to be lots of them, should be fined heavily.

I blame first and foremost, the government for not doing anything before now. Employers who knowingly hire illegals, and there have to be lots of them, should be fined heavily.
agreed 100%

But 11 people lying in a hospital with burns,C'mon.
What is it that you don't understand about the fact that these people have no right to be here in the first place?

I mean, seriously, what is soooo freaking enigmatic about that rather simple concept!? I'm curious. The whole debate we're having here is akin to being an adult who watches a child desperately try to pound a square peg through a round hole in his puzzle set with absolute conviction. And watching SMW's feeble attempt to turn this into an issue of bigotry is essentially no different. Outside of being offensive, it's preposterous. She's sitting there, square peg in hand, insisting that it'll fit in the round hole, and all the while, I'm just sitting back wondering if there's something wrong with her brain. In short, it's the dumbest fucking argument ANYONE could take, for in all honesty, they'd be flatly wrong on just about EVERY conceivable level possible. You're bringing a knife to a gunfight, guys. You're thinking with your heart, and not with your head.

What is it that you don't understand about the fact that these people have no right to be here in the first place?

I understand totally these peoples legal status-but that has nothing to do with giving them medical treatment.

I dont understand why people are making the connection.

No one said they should not get medical treatment. Absolutely no one in this thread is advocating letting people die instead of taking them to the hospital. Please stop saying that!

No one said they should not get medical treatment. Absolutely no one in this thread is advocating letting people die instead of taking them to the hospital. Please stop saying that!
I think we had this out last nite also,but I will say it again.

These people will/have got the best medical treatment money can buy.

The fact they are getting his best of treatment is being politicised,thats wrong.

Yes Im talking about these 11 unfortunate people. My point being that their plight should not be politicised,and shown as some 'yet another illegal issue'.
I suppose we should wait for a less "serious" issue to come along to highlight the problem we're having with Mexicans living in America illegally, Paul. :rolleyes:

How else are we supposed to get proof? Officers can't even question their status because the respective departments they work for fear a potential lawsuit. The ONLY place were finding them is in our hospitals, or when they're processed by the police because they've committed yet ANOTHER crime on our soil (at our communal expense, no less). I mean, these people have the best of both worlds in America (the worlds biggest grab-bag); none of the "real" taxes, and all of the benefits of citizenship. Who knew being a Mexican lawbreaker was so good? Pffft -

We're talking about poor people here wanting a better life.
Theres a fair chance the law has been used to victumise them for
being poor all they're lives, they have NO concept of it working for them.

I tell you what, Paul, if you are so concerned about people being compassionate you invite them to your home. Invite them to Ireland, that is if you still live in Ireland and haven't moved to England for a better life.

Let the compassionate Irish offer to take fifty thousand illegal aliens every year and take care of them. Of course you, being the compassionate person you are will personally take in at least ten illegal aliens and make sure they are housed, fed, educated and given free medical treatment.

Until you walk the walk stop trying to denigrate the American people.

I tell you what, Paul, if you are so concerned about people being compassionate you invite them to your home. Invite them to Ireland, that is if you still live in Ireland and haven't moved to England for a better life. No thanks,done that before a longtime ago,got discriminated against over there also.

Ireland dosent want illegals any more than the United States.

Let the compassionate Irish offer to take fifty thousand illegal aliens every year and take care of them. Of course you, being the compassionate person you are will personally take in at least ten illegal aliens and make sure they are housed, fed, educated and given free medical treatment.Frogger,comparing Ireland to the United States is absurd,your better than that.

As for the illegals-no thanks.

Until you walk the walk stop trying to denigrate the American people.Im not denigrating anyone.

I understand totally these peoples legal status-but that has nothing to do with giving them medical treatment.
It has EVERYTHING to do with giving them medical care. They don't deserve it. Get it, yet?

Hell, we should bill Mexico for their plot in the cemetery, the lye, and the time we spent digging their grave.

I suppose we should wait for a less "serious" issue to come along to highlight the problem we're having with Mexicans living in America illegally, Paul. Yeah ya should.These people will be patched up and shipped out,end of.

Theres plenty other bigger issues than this.

It has EVERYTHING to do with giving them medical care. They don't deserve it. Get it, yet?

Hell, we should bill Mexico for their plot in the cemetery, the lye, and the time we spent digging their grave.
They dont deserve it.

Fucksake get real,since when is medical treatment provided on a deserving bases.

No thanks,done that before a longtime ago,got discriminated against over there also.

Did you enter England and stay, legally or illegally?

Ireland dosent want illegals any more than the United States.

That's a bit hypocritical. You don't like the way we treat our illegals and accuse us of lacking compassion yet your country doesn't want any either.

Frogger,comparing Ireland to the United States is absurd,your better than that.

I didn't compare Ireland to the United States. I suggest that Ireland take in only 50,000 a year, a mere pittance compared to how many illegals enter the United States each year. Spend a few years with an illegal alien problem and see how loudly you talk about the ill willed Americans who don't show enough compassion to suit you.


As for the illegals-no thanks.

Why not. Aren't you compassioate?

Im not denigrating anyone.

Of course you are denigrating people. You are denigrating everyone who feels the home governments of the burn victims should reimburse the United States for their care.

I do not know the nationality of these people,but how can a government be responsable for its citizens once they leave the jurisdiction,especially if they have a land border?

Since they are still their citizens and not ours all they have to do is write a check and send it to the hospital(s) to cover the care.

Since they are still their citizens and not ours all they have to do is write a check and send it to the hospital(s) to cover the care.
Maybe they will,maybe they wont,tho I wouldnt hold my breath waiting on the cheque to arrive.

The state of California has provided as much medical treatment as it would any American,without a big fuss being made,full credit to them,doing as they always would,and will,treating sick people,irrespective of they're status.

They will then be processed and deported.

They dont deserve it.

Fucksake get real,since when is medical treatment provided on a deserving bases.I honestly dont know the answer to this paul. Could i come to your country and expect your taxes to pay for whatever legal/medical problems i have while in your country? Will your country foot the bill for whatever issues i may have?


I also do not want to reimburse your country under any circumstances. Im sure i would get the medical expenses taken out, but i believe that someone would be looking for reimbursment from either me or my country for the care i recieved. I could be wrong.

I honestly dont know the answer to this paul. Could i come to your country and expect your taxes to pay for whatever legal/medical problems i have while in your country? Will your country foot the bill for whatever issues i may have?
If there were say,illegal immigrants injured in a car smash,I would expect the gov to fix them and ship them home yes.

If however,if they came here already injured,just to recieve treatment,then I would say NO.

If there were say,illegal immigrants injured in a car smash,I would expect the gov to fix them and ship them home yes.

If however,if they came here already injured,just to recieve treatment,then I would say NO.Why are illegals given special consideration? Why do you make that distinction? Shouldnt we all have access to the best healthcare that can be provided? Immigrants (both legal and illegal) as well as tourists, students, or any others within your borders? Shouldnt your government foot the bill no questions asked?

Why are illegals given special consideration? Why do you make that distinction? Shouldnt we all have access to the best healthcare that can be provided? Immigrants (both legal and illegal) as well as tourists, students, or any others within your borders? Shouldnt your government foot the bill no questions asked?
Yes they should,and do.

But as I was responding to a illegal immigrant issue,I responded to it only.

Yes they should,and do.

But as I was responding to a illegal immigrant issue,I responded to it only.
So once again. Why make the distinction?

What distinction am I making.

If people are here and they become ill,they get treated,just the same as the United States.

If these people are illegal,they get treated,just he same as in the United States.

If these illegals were politicised in Ireland-Id say its wrong.Fix them and send them home.

If these illegals were politicised in the United States-Im saying its wrong.Fix them and send them home.

Wait.... Paul, I thought you were taking issue with the injured people being sent back to Mexico. And now you're saying there's nothing wrong with that. You've changed your stance, and now you agree with me? I don't know what you mean by "politicized", but when people are in this country illegally I want them to get out. You're not saying anything to argue against that at all.

Wait.... Paul, I thought you were taking issue with the injured people being sent back to Mexico. And now you're saying there's nothing wrong with that.I never said they shouldnt be sent back. You've changed your stance, and now you agree with me? I dont think Ive changed my stance on this issue atoll.I don't know what you mean by "politicized"What I mean is,that making political gain by highlighting these peoples Immigration status,is nothing more than a cheap shot. but when people are in this country illegally I want them to get out. You're not saying anything to argue against that at all.Why would I say anything against that,its a reasonable stance.

Sorry, but I think all 3 terms fits most of the posters on this subject. Paul is the only one who seems to have a clue and he's not even an American.

The first problem is the fact that identifying Mexican people who are here illegally is only possible thru racial profiling. Which is currently against the law in this country. The very statistics on how many undocumented residents we have here is no more scientific than a guess. Therefore, you are painting the entire population of brown people living in the U.S. legally or illegally with one broad stroke of hateful accusations. That's un-American. We don't judge a whole race of people on the transgressions of a group. Even if it's a large group, it's still only a small percentage of the total population of people of Mexican descent living in the U.S.

Secondly, there is a vast underestimate of the value Mexican people add to our economy. I figure people get tired of me using examples, but like I said before... I happen to live among large numbers of brown people, so please bear with me while I tell you the REALITY of their value. In my neighborhood, there are Mexican businesses everywhere. Owned, operated and thriving thru the efforts of their Mexican owners and employees. Don't think for a minute that Rodriquez Tire Shop pays a smaller percentage of sales, property and income tax than Discount Tire Store pays. The first Caesar's Taco stand opened down the street from me 2 years ago. They now have fast-food restaurants all over the metroplex, employing hundreds of people and paying taxes. Mexican merchants moved into a longtime deserted business district that used to be a booming 10-block shopping area when I was a kid. It now booms again... except the stores sell leather boots and cowboy hats and fancy dresses and Mexican herbs and oils, and speciality groceries and include many restaurants that people of all races visit often during their lunchbreak from downtown locations. But the shoppers are nearly all Mexican, spending their hard-earned money and paying sales taxes all along the way.

All this commerce has resulted in enough Mexican families having achieved a margin of success to fill up numerous new medium-priced housing developments as OWNERS, not renters. Very nice two-story houses with immaculate yards. They pay the same % of property taxes I pay... which is high (I think), but yet goes toward the same thing my property taxes pay for... schools, city government and the county hospital, which provides medical care to indigent people of all races... including Mexicans. To say they're bad for our economy is a gross mistake. I admit that I don't know if it's possible for an undocumented resident to purchase a house in this city... or this state... or this country. But I think they can, and if so, then they're far from being a drain on our economy. If nothing else, they're paying their fair share of what it costs us to provide medical care for the uninsured members of their population. No amount of $10 billion dollar number twisting can erase that fact.

It's not PC to be pro-Mexican. Hardly anybody bothers to calculate their worth... but they're quick to report how much they cost us. Those of you who judge them solely by what you read and hear about the actions of a few are not getting the whole story. But then again, maybe you don't want to hear the whole story. Jumping on the SEND 'EM BACK bandwagon is so much more fun than trying to understand why they came here in the first place and what they have to offer.

I know most of you don't agree with me, and I can live with that. But it's a sad day in this country when you decide it's OK to pick and choose which people to have compassion for... and which to ship back to where they came from. The sign on the Statue of Liberty doesn't say one word about filling out the proper paperwork. If you're so passionate about keeping hard-working family people out of our country, you should start a petition to get that sign altered.

Forgive the wordiness, but this is a subject very close to my heart. And my home. And my vision of what this country's all about. Mexican people deserve to be treated with compassion and respect. Just like the rest of us.

SMW

Sorry, but I think all 3 terms fits most of the posters on this subject. Paul is the only one who seems to have a clue and he's not even an American.

The first problem is the fact that identifying Mexican people who are here illegally is only possible thru racial profiling. Which is currently against the law in this country. The very statistics on how many undocumented residents we have here is no more scientific than a guess. Therefore, you are painting the entire population of brown people living in the U.S. legally or illegally with one broad stroke of hateful accusations. That's un-American. We don't judge a whole race of people on the transgressions of a group. Even if it's a large group, it's still only a small percentage of the total population of people of Mexican descent living in the U.S.

Secondly, there is a vast underestimate of the value Mexican people add to our economy. I figure people get tired of me using examples, but like I said before... I happen to live among large numbers of brown people, so please bear with me while I tell you the REALITY of their value. In my neighborhood, there are Mexican businesses everywhere. Owned, operated and thriving thru the efforts of their Mexican owners and employees. Don't think for a minute that Rodriquez Tire Shop pays a smaller percentage of sales, property and income tax than Discount Tire Store pays. The first Caesar's Taco stand opened down the street from me 2 years ago. They now have fast-food restaurants all over the metroplex, employing hundreds of people and paying taxes. Mexican merchants moved into a longtime deserted business district that used to be a booming 10-block shopping area when I was a kid. It now booms again... except the stores sell leather boots and cowboy hats and fancy dresses and Mexican herbs and oils, and speciality groceries and include many restaurants that people of all races visit often during their lunchbreak from downtown locations. But the shoppers are nearly all Mexican, spending their hard-earned money and paying sales taxes all along the way.

All this commerce has resulted in enough Mexican families having achieved a margin of success to fill up numerous new medium-priced housing developments as OWNERS, not renters. Very nice two-story houses with immaculate yards. They pay the same % of property taxes I pay... which is high (I think), but yet goes toward the same thing my property taxes pay for... schools, city government and the county hospital, which provides medical care to indigent people of all races... including Mexicans. To say they're bad for our economy is a gross mistake. I admit that I don't know if it's possible for an undocumented resident to purchase a house in this city... or this state... or this country. But I think they can, and if so, then they're far from being a drain on our economy. If nothing else, they're paying their fair share of what it costs us to provide medical care for the uninsured members of their population. No amount of $10 billion dollar number twisting can erase that fact.

It's not PC to be pro-Mexican. Hardly anybody bothers to calculate their worth... but they're quick to report how much they cost us. Those of you who judge them solely by what you read and hear about the actions of a few are not getting the whole story. But then again, maybe you don't want to hear the whole story. Jumping on the SEND 'EM BACK bandwagon is so much more fun than trying to understand why they came here in the first place and what they have to offer.

I know most of you don't agree with me, and I can live with that. But it's a sad day in this country when you decide it's OK to pick and choose which people to have compassion for... and which to ship back to where they came from. The sign on the Statue of Liberty doesn't say one word about filling out the proper paperwork. If you're so passionate about keeping hard-working family people out of our country, you should start a petition to get that sign altered.

Forgive the wordiness, but this is a subject very close to my heart. And my home. And my vision of what this country's all about. Mexican people deserve to be treated with compassion and respect. Just like the rest of us.

SMWYour compassion for people is commendable. I would never say that is not a virtue to admire.

I know the original example was about the illegal mexican immigrants who got caught in the fire. However, i think it took a turn to where most were talking about ALL illegal immigrants.


You can paint a picture of idyllic tranquility all you want, but the fact is that our social support systems are being over run with support for illegal aliens. Whether they be brown, yellow, green or blue. We all know the overwhelming majority of these illegals are brown, however.

If the immigrants are here legaly.....good for them. Welcome to America, have a nice day. If not, they are criminals who need to be deported.

Boy, when you're wrong you really go all the way and are unbelievably wrong SMW. You are also very quick to toss derogatory terms at people with whom you disagree.

I don't think anyone here has said only Mexican illegals should be deported. As far as I understand the posts those who want illegals deported want all illegals deported. It isn't a case of racial profiling. These people went to the hospital and had no American identification. It seems you would rather the government and American citizens turn a blind eye to the swarms of illegals in our country. You also seem mainly interested in the plight of Mexicans and Mexicans only.

You talk about businesses owned by people with Spanish surnames. Are these people legal residents of the United States? If they are fine. If they are not they shouldnm't ber owning businesses in the United States. If they are illegally here they should be deported.

Not a single person has suggested we send legal citizens back to wherever they came from. All the talk has been about sending illegal aliens back. Perhaps you feel we should have open borders. Perhaps you feel we should simply say to Mexico, "Send us as many of your citizens as you would like." Your defense of Mexico, and that is what you are doing, defending Mexican policies that aid and abet illegal aliens in crossing the border is kind of funny when you consider what Mexico does to people who cross their border illegally from their south. They don't treat them in hospitals. They shoot them.

SMW, I am NOT a racist or a bigot. I lived in Costa Rica for two years, among the "brown people" as you call them. I speak their language and I know exactly how it is to be a normal person living there. My family were not the typical American expats living in their own little gated communities and not learning Spanish. We lived in a 4 room house with an outdoor bathroom, concrete floors, no locks on the doors and no glass in the windows. I have friends of all different races and I honestly feel very comfortable in Hispanic areas. Does that sound racist to you?

I'm not advocating a campaign to go around and round up illegals and deport them. That is not an effective solution at all. I would be willing to support amnesty for those already here, but we need to crush illegal immigration at the source - that is, the employers who give them incentive to come, the professional traffickers who help the illegals get across the border and obtain fake documents, and the government which is doing absolutely nothing about the problem. I think we should make it easier for people to immigrate legally. I have absolutely no problems with millions of Mexicans coming into the U.S., I just want to make it possible for them to come legally.

I really don't see how you could think I'm being hateful here.

SMW, I am NOT a racist or a bigot. I lived in Costa Rica for two years, among the "brown people" as you call them. I speak their language and I know exactly how it is to be a normal person living there. My family were not the typical American expats living in their own little gated communities and not learning Spanish. We lived in a 4 room house with an outdoor bathroom, concrete floors, no locks on the doors and no glass in the windows. I have friends of all different races and I honestly feel very comfortable in Hispanic areas. Does that sound racist to you?

I'm not advocating a campaign to go around and round up illegals and deport them. That is not an effective solution at all. I would be willing to support amnesty for those already here, but we need to crush illegal immigration at the source - that is, the employers who give them incentive to come, the professional traffickers who help the illegals get across the border and obtain fake documents, and the government which is doing absolutely nothing about the problem. I think we should make it easier for people to immigrate legally. I have absolutely no problems with millions of Mexicans coming into the U.S., I just want to make it possible for them to come legally.

I really don't see how you could think I'm being hateful here.

My comments weren't directed to you, DF. I said MOST fit those categories, not everyone. I understand that you have insight into how it feels to be an outsider in another country. Just like I have insight into how Mexicans fit in because I live among them. MOST of the other posters here have very little experience or insight about the problems these people face because they only know what they hear. (Although Frogger will tell us all very soon how he taught children of Hispanic heritage in NY so that makes him very familiar with the subject.) I beg to differ. Mexicans have their own unique culture and heritage. And their own uniquely SEVERE problems trying to eke out a decent life in their native country. Like I've said before, the fact that coming to America is as simple as crossing over an imaginary line or a real river makes their plight unique. Desperate people do desperate things to try and give their families a better life.

I believe we should offer amnesty to current residents (of ALL nationalities) who have established law-abiding lives in the U.S. Any undocumented resident who fails to apply for amnesty should be deported... when detected. I also believe we should establish a method of preventing the situation from happening again by implementing laws that would require something like a national ID card or passport before being allowed to get a driver's license, a bus ticket, buy property or vehicles or get credit... or a job. (We've tried to address that last one by requiring a SS card, but we all know how effective that's been.) Something to eliminate the possibility of 'illegal aliens' living comfortably in our society.

As evidenced by the number of undocumented residents in America, it's obvious we have alot of work to do. And a lot of controversy to deal with from the 'rights to privacy' camp. Whatever we do, I just hope we don't end up solving the problem at the expense of a whole targeted race of people, like Mexicans.

SMW

The part of this that gripes me is the fact that our local cops and officials & the federal cops & officials don't play by the same rules. It's almost as if the locals are prohibited from asking about legal status during any type of involvement (traffic stop, interviewing victims/witnesses to accidents/crimes, etc) and if they find out the individual is an illegal they're not to acknowledge it. The same applies to medical treatment facilities - if during the course of medical treatment it is learned that the immigration status of the patient is somehow in question, the medical staff may be forbidden by some decree to advise the immigration folks. If the illegality of an individual under signifiant healthcare ... major organ transplant, siamese twin seperation or exruciating third degree burns - to name but a few ... is "somehow" leaked to the media and deemed sensationalist, then the media shoves the "awww ain't it terrible ...." crap down everyone's throats, the ACLU jumps in and suddenly, Pedro without a penny in his pocket, or a skill of any sort is thrust into the limelight & somebody offers to sponsor him. Well, for that one Pedro, things got good real fast. What about the thousands of others, deemed un-newsworthy, in the "shop" for a few stitches or a broken arm, or a traffic stop, or worse, that the tax payers are burdened with that aren't making the news? They don't evaporate! While not all are "under-the-table" cash only workers, there's most always a recent news story about the INS busting some factory and reporting that scores of the workers are carrying faked social security numbers and tearing up their W-2's (the employer's statement to the employee outlining income, deductions taken and taxes paid in a calendar year), indicating that money went somewhere and probably not to the government agency tasked to look after it.
If we really want to take a bite out of illegal immigration we need to tigheten up our own adherence to the laws already in place and ask serious questions as to why or why not a local arresting agency (city, county, town, state) might inform the immigration and nationalization service when encountering an individual unable to provide documentation of legal residence? Medical professionals at all levels of patient care are legally bound in most states to report all incidencies of child abuse and neglect. All well and good. Take care of the kids. By the same token, could not a hotline of sorts be established to investigate illegals? Yeah, the libs are going to scream bloody murder, but why not? If you're born here, or somehow gone through the process of becoming a "legal" then one is accorded all the rights and benefits thereof. If an illegal is identified, chase them down, get them into the legal system and maybe all they need is a brand new card, maybe they need to be shipped off.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to come to the U.S. not at all. All most are asking is the newcomers come through the front door rather than a crack in the back fence.

:rant:

Boy, when you're wrong you really go all the way and are unbelievably wrong SMW. You are also very quick to toss derogatory terms at people with whom you disagree.

Thank you for the 'quick' comment, Frogger. I learned everything I know from you. ;)

I don't think anyone here has said only Mexican illegals should be deported. As far as I understand the posts those who want illegals deported want all illegals deported. It isn't a case of racial profiling. These people went to the hospital and had no American identification. It seems you would rather the government and American citizens turn a blind eye to the swarms of illegals in our country. You also seem mainly interested in the plight of Mexicans and Mexicans only.

Mexicans are the MAJORITY of illegals. And the only nationality of immigrants I'm familiar with, therefore the only one I'm discussing.

You talk about businesses owned by people with Spanish surnames. Are these people legal residents of the United States? If they are fine. If they are not they shouldnm't ber owning businesses in the United States. If they are illegally here they should be deported.

The magic word there is SHOULD, Frogger. As far as I know, there is nothing on the books to prevent illegal residents from owning businesses in the US if they have the proper business licenses to allow them to pay taxes and report income on said business. I started small businesses of my own a few times and can't see what would prevent someone from getting a Tax ID# and opening their doors for business. Although a SS# is required, we know it's not that hard to bypass that requirement. I could be wrong. It might be impossible. But my gut instinct tells me it's not. So even if our own 'system' allowed them to open a small, successful business, they pay taxes and employ workers, we should hunt them down and deport them? Makes no sense to me.

Not a single person has suggested we send legal citizens back to wherever they came from. All the talk has been about sending illegal aliens back. Perhaps you feel we should have open borders. Perhaps you feel we should simply say to Mexico, "Send us as many of your citizens as you would like." Your defense of Mexico, and that is what you are doing, defending Mexican polocies that aid and abet illegal aliens in crossing the border is kind of funny when you consider what Mexico does to people who cross their border illegally from their south. They don't treat them in hospitals. They shoot them.

Please allow me to point out that your two last sentences were bigotted, racist and worded to cause others to lothe and fear a whole country full of innocent people... IOW, hatemongering. Point made.


And let me clear up one set of questions I know alot of people would like to ask me.

No, I'm not of Mexican heritage. No, I don't have any close friends who are Mexicans. No, I've never been married to or involved with a Mexican man. No, I don't socialize with Mexicans. No, I don't have Mexican neighbors. My observations of their culture and attitudes come from riding the train to work with them, and shopping in the grocery stores with them, and visiting the same parks, and watching how they interact as families. You know, normal, everyday LIVING with them.

You're a smart man, Frogger. And I respect you. But we need to agree to disagree on this subject. As it seems I need to agree to do with alot of other people here.

However, I thoroughly enjoyed shedding my widely-perceived Far Right Wing Conservative skin here. I lean so far Left on this issue, I could nearly fall outta my chair.

;)
SMW

The part of this that gripes me is the fact that our local cops and officials & the federal cops & officials don't play by the same rules. It's almost as if the locals are prohibited from asking about legal status during any type of involvement (traffic stop, interviewing victims/witnesses to accidents/crimes, etc) and if they find out the individual is an illegal they're not to acknowledge it. The same applies to medical treatment facilities - if during the course of medical treatment it is learned that the immigration status of the patient is somehow in question, the medical staff may be forbidden by some decree to advise the immigration folks. If the illegality of an individual under signifiant healthcare ... major organ transplant, siamese twin seperation or exruciating third degree burns - to name but a few ... is "somehow" leaked to the media and deemed sensationalist, then the media shoves the "awww ain't it terrible ...." crap down everyone's throats, the ACLU jumps in and suddenly, Pedro without a penny in his pocket, or a skill of any sort is thrust into the limelight & somebody offers to sponsor him. Well, for that one Pedro, things got good real fast. What about the thousands of others, deemed un-newsworthy, in the "shop" for a few stitches or a broken arm, or a traffic stop, or worse, that the tax payers are burdened with that aren't making the news? They don't evaporate! While not all are "under-the-table" cash only workers, there's most always a recent news story about the INS busting some factory and reporting that scores of the workers are carrying faked social security numbers and tearing up their W-2's (the employer's statement to the employee outlining income, deductions taken and taxes paid in a calendar year), indicating that money went somewhere and probably not to the government agency tasked to look after it.
If we really want to take a bite out of illegal immigration we need to tigheten up our own adherence to the laws already in place and ask serious questions as to why or why not a local arresting agency (city, county, town, state) might inform the immigration and nationalization service when encountering an individual unable to provide documentation of legal residence? Medical professionals at all levels of patient care are legally bound in most states to report all incidencies of child abuse and neglect. All well and good. Take care of the kids. By the same token, could not a hotline of sorts be established to investigate illegals? Yeah, the libs are going to scream bloody murder, but why not? If you're born here, or somehow gone through the process of becoming a "legal" then one is accorded all the rights and benefits thereof. If an illegal is identified, chase them down, get them into the legal system and maybe all they need is a brand new card, maybe they need to be shipped off.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to come to the U.S. not at all. All most are asking is the newcomers come through the front door rather than a crack in the back fence.

:rant:




For what it's worth, I totally agree, Es. Our system is screwed up. Worrying about being PC has tied the hands of law enforcement. There are NO laws in place to require anyone to report an illegal resident. And even if they are reported, action is rarely taken to actually deport them. Unless, as you say, they make the news... esp in a negative way.

I doubt if anybody disagrees with the screwed up part. We've allowed this situation to occur. How we should fix it should be a bigger political issue than it is. But that's a hot button subject for a candidate trying to woo voters. So they all just keep dancing around it.

And millions of Mexicans are caught in the middle and getting the blame for taking advantage of our screwed up system.

Too sad.

:rolleyes:
SMW

Although I do not "blame" the mexican illegal aliens from coming here (I would do the same, if I was faced with poor living conditions in Mexico and no real threat for breaking the law for coming here), it IS a problem.

In the area where I live the influx of illegal aliens has severely taxed the school system, the heath care system, and has brought into the area a not-before-seen gang related violence and much more drug dealing (thereby stressing the local law enforcement).

Are all illegal aliens bad? No. Do many of our local businesses benefit from their presence? Yes. should I bear the brunt of their cost to the community via higher taxes and insurance premiums? No.

Although these illegals help the economy via the purchasing of goods and the cheap labor they provide to "suspect" businesses... I do NOT think they should be allowed social services and benefits that are ear-marked for citizens.

The biggest problem, OP, is that we've allowed them to get social services and go to our schools and even form gangs... just like their black and white peers.

We've allowed them to assimilate into our culture by not preventing it.

The question is... how do we fix it now?

Any ideas??

:)
SMW

My comments weren't directed to you, DF. I said MOST fit those categories, not everyone. I understand that you have insight into how it feels to be an outsider in another country. Just like I have insight into how Mexicans fit in because I live among them. MOST of the other posters here have very little experience or insight about the problems these people face because they only know what they hear.
Just how well do you know these others posters you speak of, because i know you have no idea what level of interaction i have with "these people".

(Although Frogger will tell us all very soon how he taught children of Hispanic heritage in NY so that makes him very familiar with the subject.) I beg to differ. Mexicans have their own unique culture and heritage. And their own uniquely SEVERE problems trying to eke out a decent life in their native country.

The topic is not Mexicans but illegal aliens and yes I have taught and interacted with Mexicans. There are many more than you seem to suspect on Long Island.


You called this statement by me, actually the last two sentences of this statement racists, bigotted and hate montering.

Your defense of Mexico, and that is what you are doing, defending Mexican polocies that aid and abet illegal aliens in crossing the border is kind of funny when you consider what Mexico does to people who cross their border illegally from their south. They don't treat them in hospitals. They shoot them.

I guess any truth you happen to not like is racist or bigotted or hate mongering. It is a fact that the Mexican government aids and abets its citizens in their attempts to illegall cross into the United States. The Mexican government has even published and distributed a comic book telling them how to best do it. The Mexican government does not patrol its northern border in order to keep people from illegally crossing it. It does however patrol its southern border to keep people from entering Mexico illegally and yes, the Mexican police, those who do not take bribes to let the people cross do shoot them. It is a known fact, not a racists, bigotted or hate mongering lie that the Mexican police are among the most corrupt in the world.

You can be an apologist for law breakers who take far more from our country than they give in return. That is your right and your priveledge. It is neither your right nor priveledge to label those who disagree with you racists, bigots or hate mongers.

. I lean so far Left on this issue, I could nearly fall outta my chair.


SMW

Well, I hope you have some carpeting down.

When you're old, living in a flophouse, eating dog food out of cans, and your first Social Security check is for 12 cents, remember how you called me a bigot.

SMW, that is not gonna happen to me or my kids. You want to take care of these people, fine. Do it outta your own payckeck. Don't expect the rest of us to foot the bill.

You can blame my hatemongering streak.:D

Here is my solution, for what it's worth.

The illegals already here pay a hefty fine. Since they are good citizens working at real jobs with real paychecks, this should present no problem.
This fine money to go to education and road work. Required citizenship classes.

Illegals who don't pay the fine either get sent back to their homeland or are put to work in some kind of social service capacity.

Employers who knowingly hire illegals go to prison where they work on a chain gang.

Keep the fence in place.

Send dozens of busloads of broke Americans to Mexico where they can "demand" everything under the sun and "demand" that the natives speak English. Fly the Stars and Stripes at every oppoortunity including Mexican national holidays. Commit petty crimes, fender benders, litter, and jaywalk. If the auhtorities complain, go to the UN and accuse them of bigotry.