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By Grace Halsell


American Jews sympathetic to Israel dominate key positions in all areas of our government where decisions are made regarding the Middle East. This being the case, is there any hope of ever changing U.S. policy? President Bill Clinton as well as most members of Congress support Israel-and they know why. U.S. Jews sympathetic to Israel donate lavishly to their campaign coffers.

The answer to achieving an even-handed Middle East policy might lie elsewhere-among those who support Israel but don’t really know why. This group is the vast majority of Americans. They are well-meaning, fair-minded Christians who feel bonded to Israel-and Zionism-often from atavistic feelings, in some cases dating from childhood.

I am one of those. I grew up listening to stories of a mystical, allegorical, spiritual Israel. This was before a modern political entity with the same name appeared on our maps. I attended Sunday School and watched an instructor draw down window- type shades to show maps of the Holy Land. I imbibed stories of a Good and Chosen people who fought against their Bad “unChosen” enemies.

In my early 20s, I began traveling the world, earning my living as a writer. I came to the subject of the Middle East rather late in my career. I was sadly lacking in knowledge regarding the area. About all I knew was what I had learned in Sunday School.

And typical of many U.S. Christians, I somehow considered a modern state created in 1948 as a homeland for Jews persecuted under the Nazis as a replica of the spiritual, mystical Israel I heard about as a child. When in 1979 I initially went to Jerusalem, I planned to write about the three great monotheistic religions and leave out politics. “Not write about politics?” scoffed one Palestinian, smoking a water pipe in the Old Walled City. “We eat politics, morning, noon and night!”

As I would learn, the politics is about land, and the co-claimants to that land: the indigenous Palestinians who have lived there for 2,000 years and the Jews who started arriving in large numbers after the Second World War. By living among Israeli Jews as well as Palestinian Christians and Muslims, I saw, heard, smelled, experienced the police state tactics Israelis use against Palestinians.

My research led to a book entitled Journey to Jerusalem. My journey not only was enlightening to me as regards Israel, but also I came to a deeper, and sadder, understanding of my own country. I say sadder understanding because I began to see that, in Middle East politics, we the people are not making the decisions, but rather that supporters of Israel are doing so. And typical of most Americans, I tended to think the U.S. media was “free” to print news impartially.

“It shouldn’t be published. It’s anti-Israel.”

In the late 1970s, when I first went to Jerusalem, I was unaware that editors could and would classify “news” depending on who was doing what to whom. On my initial visit to Israel-Palestine, I had interviewed dozens of young Palestinian men. About one in four related stories of torture.
Israeli police had come in the night, dragged them from their beds and placed hoods over their heads. Then in jails the Israelis had kept them in isolation, besieged them with loud, incessant noises, hung them upside down and had sadistically mutilated their genitals. I had not read such stories in the U.S. media. Wasn’t it news? Obviously, I naively thought, U.S. editors simply didn’t know it was happening.

On a trip to Washington, DC, I hand-delivered a letter to Frank Mankiewicz, then head of the public radio station WETA. I explained I had taped interviews with Palestinians who had been brutally tortured. And I’d make them available to him. I got no reply. I made several phone calls. Eventually I was put through to a public relations person, a Ms. Cohen, who said my letter had been lost. I wrote again. In time I began to realize what I hadn’t known: had it been Jews who were strung up and tortured, it would be news. But interviews with tortured Arabs were “lost” at WETA.

The process of getting my book Journey to Jerusalem published also was a learning experience. Bill Griffin, who signed a contract with me on behalf of MacMillan Publishing Company, was a former Roman Catholic priest. He assured me that no one other than himself would edit the book. As I researched the book, making several trips to Israel and Palestine, I met frequently with Griffin, showing him sample chapters. “Terrific,” he said of my material.

The day the book was scheduled to be published, I went to visit MacMillan’s. Checking in at a reception desk, I spotted Griffin across a room, cleaning out his desk. His secretary Margie came to greet me. In tears, she whispered for me to meet her in the ladies room. When we were alone, she confided, “He’s been fired.” She indicated it was because he had signed a contract for a book that was sympathetic to Palestinians. Griffin, she said, had no time to see me.

Later, I met with another MacMillan official, William Curry. “I was told to take your manuscript to the Israeli Embassy, to let them read it for mistakes,” he told me. “They were not pleased. They asked me, ‘You are not going to publish this book, are you?’ I asked, ‘Were there mistakes?’ ‘Not mistakes as such. But it shouldn’t be published. It’s anti-Israel.’”
Somehow, despite obstacles to prevent it, the presses had started rolling. After its publication in 1980, I was invited to speak in a number of churches. Christians generally reacted with disbelief. Back then, there was little or no coverage of Israeli land confiscation, demolition of Palestinian homes, wan ton arrests and torture of Palestinian civilians.








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A very interesting topic. I can't wait to hear the member's input, and find out whether you, as Americans, have had similar experiences. It's to my knowledge that the news you receive is likely never anti-Israel, while all around the world the news shows both sides of the story.

Anyway, waiting for your replies!

Well sweety,as you know Im not American,I hope you dont mind.

Interesting read.I have always said one of the main factors,probally the main factor for incidents like,
The Embassy siege in Tehran.
9/11 attacks in New York and Pentagon.
Afghanistan.

All these are a direct result of US onesidedness in support of the state of Israel.


Not to mention,financial and military packages,which has allowed Israel to become the most powerful nation for its size in the world.

These facts are whats taught in religious schools by extremeists around the Muslim world,training the next generation of alQaeda.

I support Israel despite the country's shortcomings. I support Israel because I have far more faith in the Israeli people and the Israeli government than I do in the Arab people and Arab governments.

I do not worry that Israel will send suicide bombers to kill Americans on American soil. I do not worry that Jews will be preaching the destruction of the United States in their synagogues as Muslims do in their Mosques. I do not worry that a group of Jews from Israel will hijack an airplane and fly it into an American building killing almost 3,000 innocent people.

I remember no pictures of gleeful Israelis dancing in the streets after the World Trade Center was destroyed. I cannot recall a member of the Israeli government calling America the Great Satan and calling for its destruction.

Yes, Israel is far from perfect. Israel does things I do not like. Isreal acts like a bully in the region. Despite it all I will take Israel over all the other nations in the region.

Yes, Israel is far from perfect. Israel does things I do not like. Isreal acts like a bully in the region. Despite it all I will take Israel over all the other nations in the region.
Amen.

Well sweety,as you know Im not American,I hope you dont mind.

Interesting read.I have always said one of the main factors,probally the main factor for incidents like,
The Embassy siege in Tehran.
9/11 attacks in New York and Pentagon.
Afghanistan.

All these are a direct result of US onesidedness in support of the state of Israel.


Not to mention,financial and military packages,which has allowed Israel to become the most powerful nation for its size in the world.

These facts are whats taught in religious schools by extremeists around the Muslim world,training the next generation of alQaeda.

You're right, these teachings came as a result of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.

I support Israel despite the country's shortcomings. I support Israel because I have far more faith in the Israeli people and the Israeli government than I do in the Arab people and Arab governments.

I do not worry that Israel will send suicide bombers to kill Americans on American soil. I do not worry that Jews will be preaching the destruction of the United States in their synagogues as Muslims do in their Mosques. I do not worry that a group of Jews from Israel will hijack an airplane and fly it into an American building killing almost 3,000 innocent people.

I remember no pictures of gleeful Israelis dancing in the streets after the World Trade Center was destroyed. I cannot recall a member of the Israeli government calling America the Great Satan and calling for its destruction.

Yes, Israel is far from perfect. Israel does things I do not like. Isreal acts like a bully in the region. Despite it all I will take Israel over all the other nations in the region.

You realize that all what you mentioned being done by Muslim Extremists stem as a result of Israeli occupation? If I'm not mistaken the reason Osama bin Laden used to bomb the US WTC's was due to the Palestinian Intifada of 2000.

The pictures you speak of of gleeful Palestinians was actually old footage taken way before the WTC attacks.

There will, obviously, be no Israeli member hating America. Why would you hate the people who support you financially and militarilly?

I like the way you think, "Since they like us, I like them. I don't care if they treat others badly, as long as there's no animosity between us two."

Innocent Sweetie, I have to be brutally honest with you. I don't trust a single Arab or Muslim state any further than I can throw a Volkswagon. Sure there are some Arab and Muslim states that are less militant and anti-Western than others but there is not a single democratically elected one anywhere in the world.

While there are members of other religious faiths that preach hatred it is only among the Muslims that such hatred is institutionalized to such a great extent.

Israel has been a staunch and unwavering ally of the United States. While we have had our differences I would trust Israel when the chips are down. There is not a single Arab or Muslim state I can say that about.

Oddly enough,I also would rather live in Israel than a Muslim country,however.

I firmly believe the Palestinians need a peace settlement with Israel,so that all the killing can stop.

This simply wont happen as long as the US finances Israel and allows it to be the main agressor in the area.

I am 100% in favor of a Palestinian State. I think what Israel is doing vis a vis Palestine is terribly wrong. That doesn't change my feelings about the State of Israel vs Arab or Muslim states though. I cannot think of a single Muslim nation, includingt our allies Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan that I would trust.

You're right, these teachings came as a result of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.





Bull f*&king S#$t. Pardon my french, but that is a cop and excuse to not do anything about the root of the problem , the greedy dictatorships that rule the muslim world and keep their citizens poor and stupid and tell them it is all Israels fault so they do not rise up agaisnt them. israel is the boogyman that keeps the unwashed masses safely in the gutters and out of the palaces.

Trav,were do you think the Taliban the alQaeda draw they're recruits from?

The religious schools,thats were.

Know what they teach in them.

That Israel is evl,and its supported by the United States,who is more evil.
For supporting Isreal and Gulf oil familes.

Trav raises a very good point. One way to keep a discontented population in line is to create an outside enemy, the evil other. The dictatorial Arab nations are using Israel and the United States as the outside enemy to keep the people from realizing just how poorly they are being treated by their own governments.

You're right, these teachings came as a result of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.So is it the old: everything I do wrong is because of you?



[color=firebrick]You realize that all what you mentioned being done by Muslim Extremists stem as a result of Israeli occupation? ]So explain the violence against Islamic people by the same Muslim Extremists.

...to keep the people from realizing just how poorly they are being treated by their own governments....governments, neighbors, families, etc.

OK, I do not buy it. I think the whole "we are creating more terorrists" thing is used more by anti war americans then the muslim extremeists.
They dont need any more excuses then waht is written in the Koran to want to kill us. There were crazy muslims cutting off heads before the US was even around, and there will always be even after we are gone.

Israel and he US are convienient scpaegoats and whipping boys. If you aks an average arab in an average arab city 9outside iraq) to point out how america or iasrael ahs affected their leves on any given day and they wont have an answer. Just as Goldstein was used to keep the attention of Winston and the other citizens of Orwells 1984 distracted, so are the US and Israel used by the middle eastern dictatorships to keep their citizens minds off the fact they are miserable.

Trav raises a very good point. One way to keep a discontented population in line is to create an outside enemy, the evil other. The dictatorial Arab nations are using Israel and the United States as the outside enemy to keep the people from realizing just how poorly they are being treated by their own governments.
Trav makes a good point,except its not accurate.
These religious leaders are as criticl of oil families as they are of you guys.

Trav makes a good point,except its not accurate.
These religious leaders are as criticl of oil families as they are of you guys.

The religious leaders are mainly responsible for the hard core suicide type terrorists, but the governments are responsible for the overall level of hatred for Israel and the US.

This is an interesting theory,I wont disagree with it.

Tho when you refer to countries you mean Iran-Syria.

These religious leaders are in oil rich states also,

such as OBL a Saudi.

Innocent Sweetie, I have to be brutally honest with you. I don't trust a single Arab or Muslim state any further than I can throw a Volkswagon. Sure there are some Arab and Muslim states that are less militant and anti-Western than others but there is not a single democratically elected one anywhere in the world.

While there are members of other religious faiths that preach hatred it is only among the Muslims that such hatred is institutionalized to such a great extent.

Israel has been a staunch and unwavering ally of the United States. While we have had our differences I would trust Israel when the chips are down. There is not a single Arab or Muslim state I can say that about.

Well DUH. Of course Israel will be an ally, they don't want to piss off the people who are basically giving them everything to run their state. And of course you will have Muslim states that are anti-Western, why do you think that's the case? Is it cause of the beautiful treatment that they have received from the West?

Oddly enough,I also would rather live in Israel than a Muslim country,however.

I firmly believe the Palestinians need a peace settlement with Israel,so that all the killing can stop.

This simply wont happen as long as the US finances Israel and allows it to be the main agressor in the area.

You'd rather live in Israel? Wouldn't you be afraid of living in a war area?
I don't know, maybe I'd be afraid of going there because I know how Israel would treat a Muslim coming into their airport, especially with my hijab and nationality and all.

You're right about the last part, it just won't happen as long as Israel is allowed to be the main agressor, and the US vetoes all their anti-humanitarian acts during UN Summits.

I am 100% in favor of a Palestinian State. I think what Israel is doing vis a vis Palestine is terribly wrong. That doesn't change my feelings about the State of Israel vs Arab or Muslim states though. I cannot think of a single Muslim nation, includingt our allies Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan that I would trust.

Of course you'd trust Israel, they are worth nothing without US support, and would never dream of jeopardizing that relaitionship.
Of course you wouldn't trust Muslim nations. They have a lot of people who are anti-Western; I wonder why.

Bull f*&king S#$t. Pardon my french, but that is a cop and excuse to not do anything about the root of the problem , the greedy dictatorships that rule the muslim world and keep their citizens poor and stupid and tell them it is all Israels fault so they do not rise up agaisnt them. israel is the boogyman that keeps the unwashed masses safely in the gutters and out of the palaces.

No it is not a cop and excuse. I find American people extremely reluctant in opening their minds regarding the Israeli case, especially when it comes to putting themselves in the other's shoes. Do you really think that people are born with the idea of "we hate America let us kill them" without a reason? People just hate like that, no real reason, right?

Israel does not keep the unwashed masses safely away, it caused them to erupt, and you know it. Without the Israeli invasion, I can tell you the Middle Eastern region would've been really different.

Trav,were do you think the Taliban the alQaeda draw they're recruits from?

The religious schools,thats were.

Know what they teach in them.

That Israel is evl,and its supported by the United States,who is more evil.
For supporting Isreal and Gulf oil familes.

No not religious schools, governments prohibit such teachings. They teach them these things at home.

Trav raises a very good point. One way to keep a discontented population in line is to create an outside enemy, the evil other. The dictatorial Arab nations are using Israel and the United States as the outside enemy to keep the people from realizing just how poorly they are being treated by their own governments.

So you're supporting Israel to keep Arabs in check :lolhit: because they keep the entire region in line.

The nations aren't using them as excuses, they're defending themselves from someone who has invaded their territory. No believers in self-defense?

So is it the old: everything I do wrong is because of you

Call it what you want Shiloh: If it weren't for you I wouldn't have reacted this way. I can call it that.

So explain the violence against Islamic people by the same Muslim Extremists.

Due to being pro-American and pro-West. That's why extremists are acting that way towards their own people who engage in such activities.

OK, I do not buy it. I think the whole "we are creating more terorrists" thing is used more by anti war americans then the muslim extremeists.
They dont need any more excuses then waht is written in the Koran to want to kill us. There were crazy muslims cutting off heads before the US was even around, and there will always be even after we are gone.

Israel and he US are convienient scpaegoats and whipping boys. If you aks an average arab in an average arab city 9outside iraq) to point out how america or iasrael ahs affected their leves on any given day and they wont have an answer. Just as Goldstein was used to keep the attention of Winston and the other citizens of Orwells 1984 distracted, so are the US and Israel used by the middle eastern dictatorships to keep their citizens minds off the fact they are miserable.

Um, the Koran doesn't say "go kill Americans". Their actions are their own, not from their religion. "Cutting off of heads" happens in developing nations, not just Muslim ones, but conveniently gets more media attention if developing Muslim nations were engaging in these acts. This isn't about the religion Travh20.

About the part I boldened... It's funny. ME leaders sent out invitations asking for war so that people would be too busy with it to notice their corrupt governments. Right.

The religious leaders are mainly responsible for the hard core suicide type terrorists, but the governments are responsible for the overall level of hatred for Israel and the US.

OK, how exactly?

well, from what i ahve seen that is taught in schools there and shown on TV it seems clear how.

Innocent Sweetie,

The United States bombed Serbia and drove Milosovic from power in order to protect Muslims. What was the response of the Muslims? Attacks on the United States and Great Britain.

You statement that Shia and Sunni are killing each other because one side or the other is perceived as an ally of the United States is simple false. Shia and Sunni are killing each other because they view each other as somehow less Muslim. They are not blowing up mosques because they are hotbeds of pro-American feeling but because the people in the mosque have a different view of the succession from Mohammad to the present day.

Wasnt Milosovic attacking Croats also.

Yugoslavia I think is a poor example,it was a total mess,the people were let down by ALL the western nations.

well, from what i ahve seen that is taught in schools there and shown on TV it seems clear how.

How about making it clear for me and being specific :) I wasn't taught in your schools and haven't watched the same TV you do.

Innocent Sweetie,

The United States bombed Serbia and drove Milosovic from power in order to protect Muslims. What was the response of the Muslims? Attacks on the United States and Great Britain.

You statement that Shia and Sunni are killing each other because one side or the other is perceived as an ally of the United States is simple false. Shia and Sunni are killing each other because they view each other as somehow less Muslim. They are not blowing up mosques because they are hotbeds of pro-American feeling but because the people in the mosque have a different view of the succession from Mohammad to the present day.

Muslims didn't attack the West because the US helped them. Btw, the US also helped in the Gulf War and Iran-Iraq War, it has always intervened and helped Muslim nations. Of course the reason behind attacks is not this, it is due to US support of Israel.

Where the hell did I state that Shia and Sunni are killing each other because one side is perceived as an ally of the US? I know that they're killing each other for religious differences, which is wrong, but which has sadly happened in many other religions, the most recent and famous of being the killings between Protestants and Catholics in the 80's I believe (am I right about the date paulc?). Don't put words in my mouth Frogger.

Your right sorta girl.

Wasnt Milosovic attacking Croats also.

Yugoslavia I think is a poor example,it was a total mess,the people were let down by ALL the western nations.

We attacked Serbia because of Kosovo, an integral part of Serbia that was being overun by illegal Albanians intent on making Kosovo part of a Greater Albania.

Call it what you want Shiloh: If it weren't for you I wouldn't have reacted this way. I can call it that.What is it that I have done that has "caused " you to act that way?

Due to being pro-American and pro-West. That's why extremists are acting that way towards their own people who engage in such activities.Oh, bull, the minute the Prophet (PBBUH) died, so-called Muslims started killing each other for the right to be the boss, and it continues to this day.

We are just the latest excuse for your need to be avoid self-examination! Stop blaming everyone else for your cultural problems and be responsible for the violence and selfishness endemic to your own culture.

Of course the reason behind attacks is not this, it is due to US support of Israel.When we kept the Iraqis out of Saudi Arabia and freed the Kuwatis it was to support Israel?
When we went into stop the rape camps in the Balkins it was to support Israel?

What is it that I have done that has "caused " you to act that way?

Not you, the governments. What did they do? Israeli invasion.

Oh, bull, the minute the Prophet (PBBUH) died, so-called Muslims started killing each other for the right to be the boss, and it continues to this day.

We are just the latest excuse for your need to be avoid self-examination! Stop blaming everyone else for your cultural problems and be responsible for the violence and selfishness endemic to your own culture.

Of course it happens, and I am not excusing the Muslim people who commit such wrong acts. These things happen in all religions btw, not just Islam. I am merely giving you the reasons for animosity towards the West and West in particular. If Muslims really were the way you think, they'd hate everyone else, and start attacking Russia and Asian countries. Fortunately, they haven't invaded a Muslim nation yet nor have they stood by nations who have done so in such an explicit manner, so they're safe.

Of course you'd trust Israel, they are worth nothing without US support....
Bullshit, IS - Israel is the only non-oil producing state in the Middle East (besides yours, of course) that has an industry, and the kicker is, you've both adopted western business tactics. Coincidence much??? Go figure.

I see what they've taught you in school.

When we kept the Iraqis out of Saudi Arabia and freed the Kuwatis it was to support Israel?
When we went into stop the rape camps in the Balkins it was to support Israel?

Don't put words in my mouth Shiloh, you know I didn't mean to deny US help, I've always admitted it.

The US undeniably helped, but it has also attacked. This is what I'm saying.

We attacked Serbia because of Kosovo, an integral part of Serbia that was being overun by illegal Albanians intent on making Kosovo part of a Greater Albania.
Like I said,yugoslavia is a bad example.

Kosovo-mostly Muslim.
Albania-mostly Muslim.
Attack Serbia-mostly Orthodox, to protect Muslims?????????????????????????

Bullshit, IS - Israel is the only non-oil producing state in the Middle East (besides yours, of course) that has an industry, and the kicker is, you've both adopted western business tactics. Coincidence much??? Go figure.

I see what they've taught you in school.

Quote the entire text next time Prae. The reason the US people trust Israel is because it's completely supported by the US, and therefore, does everything that would please the US people.

These things happen in all religions btw, not just Islam.

Not so. When is the last time a bunch of Orthodox Jews went into a Reform Temple and blew it up, killing people?

When is the last time Roman Catholics went into a Methodist Church and sprayed it with machine gun fire?

Oddly enough,I think Israel does what it wants,whether the US likes it or not.

Of course it happens, and I am not excusing the Muslim people who commit such wrong acts. Neither will you examine it to look at the underlying reasons for your cultures violence.

These things happen in all religions btw, not just Islam.Please show me a culture-wide tendency toward violence in within Christian infighting in, say, the last 300 hundred years.
I am merely giving you the reasons for animosity towards the West and West in particular.No, you are giving me the justification for your cultures sub-human conduct.

If Muslims really were the way you think, they'd hate everyone else, and start attacking Russia and Asian countries.They have and still do!so they're safe.Is your only response violence? Weak.

Oddly enough,I think Israel does what it wants,whether the US likes it or not.
You're actually quite correct, Paul - they do, and the worst part is, they do it with impunity. I don't like that about Israel one bit.

Quote the entire text next time Prae. The reason the US people trust Israel is because it's completely supported by the US, and therefore, does everything that would please the US people.Many of us question Israeli actions and push for adjustment.

Not so. When is the last time a bunch of Orthodox Jews went into a Reform Temple and blew it up, killing people?

When is the last time Roman Catholics went into a Methodist Church and sprayed it with machine gun fire?

I already used the example of Protestans vs. Catholics in Ireland...?

Wow, Shiloh - when you're right, you're right. Kudos to you.

I already used the example of Protestans vs. Catholics in Ireland...?
That's a good one. Now give us another within 300 years if you can.

Like I said,yugoslavia is a bad example.

Kosovo-mostly Muslim.
Albania-mostly Muslim.
Attack Serbia-mostly Orthodox, to protect Muslims?????????????????????????

Actually Kosovo wasn't mostly Muslim until illegal Albanians started crossing the border and attacking Serbs who lived there.

The West made a big blunder in attacking Serbia. I have no great love for the Serbians or Milosovic but it was an internal affair in which a government was trying to maintain its territorial integrity against illegals who were trying to subvert it.

Like I said,yugoslavia is a bad example.

Kosovo-mostly Muslim.
Albania-mostly Muslim.
Attack Serbia-mostly Orthodox, to protect Muslims?????????????????????????It was the minoties who were at risk. Where was Ireland in all this? Tossing darts down at the Chicken Neck pub!

Neither will you examine it to look at the underlying reasons for your cultures violence.

Surprisingly Shiloh,governments are too busy with foreign invasions to have time to examine internal activity.

No, you are giving me the justification for your cultures sub-human conduct.

"sub-human" conduct which came in the form of self-defense in reaction to attacks. OK, every nation that performed self-defense is exercising sub-human conduct.

The have and still do!Is your only response violence? Weak.

They have and still do? Name some?
Is our only response violence? Shiloh, why was your response to WTC violence? Is it not self-defense?

That's a good one. Now give us another within 300 years if you can.

That would take research Prae, I'm not a history major or history buff, and have named that event and know it because of it's notoriety. I'll research more if you want

Actually Kosovo wasn't mostly Muslim until illegal Albanians started crossing the border and attacking Serbs who lived there.

The West made a big blunder in attacking Serbia. I have no great love for the Serbians or Milosovic but it was an internal affair in which a government was trying to maintain its territorial integrity against illegals who were trying to subvert it.
Actually before the breakup of Yugoslavia,Kosovo was about 80% ethnic Albanian,ie Muslim.

I already used the example of Protestans vs. Catholics in Ireland...?That wasn't about religion. Try again.

When we kept the Iraqis out of Saudi Arabia and freed the Kuwatis it was to support Israel? I think youll find this was done to protect the flow of oil from the Gulf.
When we went into stop the rape camps in the Balkins it was to support Israel?This I will agree with.Its a pity the other so called members of NATO didnt clean up they're own back yard.

That wasn't about religion. Try again.

Try checking this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Protestantism#Anti-Protestantism_in_Ireland) first

Surprisingly Shiloh,governments are too busy with foreign invasions to have time to examine internal activity.[/color]Bull.

"sub-human" conduct which came in the form of self-defense in reaction to attacks. OK, every nation that performed self-defense is exercising sub-human conduct.Name a nation at war with the west over a self-defense issue.


They have and still do? Name some?Chechnia, Afghanistan, Kashmire, Indonesia, central Africa. Look it up.
Is our only response violence? Shiloh, why was your response to WTC violence? Is it not self-defense?I'm talking to you about the intra-Muslim violence which betrays the fact that external "causes" are just excuses." When the US blows into some place because we don't like its cultural influence on our purity, I'll call that sub-humane.

I think youll find this was done to protect the flow of oil from the Gulf.So you agree that it was not about supporting Israel, which was the contention of IS?

Try checking this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Protestantism#Anti-Protestantism_in_Ireland) firstFrom your own link:

[edit] Anti-Protestantism in Ireland
In other cases, especially Northern Ireland or pre-Catholic Emancipation Ireland, the issue is more complex and has more to do with communal or nationalist sentiments than theological issues.

In modern Irish nationalism, anti-Protestantism is usually more nationalist than religious in tone. The main reason for this is the identification of Protestants with unionism - i.e. the support for the maintenance of the union with the United Kingdom, and opposition to Home Rule or Irish independence. In Northern Ireland, since the foundation of the Free State in 1921, Catholics, who are mainly nationalists, allege systematic discrimination against them by the Protestant unionist community. The mixture of religious and national identities on both sides reinforces both anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant sectarian prejudice in the province.

She will speak for herself,but in my opinion,the above was about oil.

Name a nation at war with the west over a self-defense issue.

None currently. Many events in the past.

Chechnia, Afghanistan, Kashmire, Indonesia, central Africa. Look it up.

Not due to Islamic reasons, but different ones.

I'm talking to you about the intra-Muslim violence which betrays the fact that external "causes" are just excuses." When the US blows into some place because we don't like its cultural influence on our purity, I'll call that sub-humane.

Then you shouldn't call Muslim acts sub-humane Shiloh. Muslims aren't attacking the West because of their cultural influence, it just isn't worth waging a war for that silly reason :) use your logic.

So you agree that it was not about supporting Israel, which was the contention of IS?

That was not my contention, and I've repeated that several times.

From your own link:
[edit] Anti-Protestantism in Ireland
In other cases, especially Northern Ireland or pre-Catholic Emancipation Ireland, the issue is more complex and has more to do with communal or nationalist sentiments than theological issues.

I knew you'd do that, and you'll find that the same applies to the internal violence going on in the Muslim world too.

I wish all good things for you, Dear ISweety. And when you find yourself in a terrible fix, call us. We are more likely than the Muslim world to come to your aid.

I think youll find this was done to protect the flow of oil from the Gulf.
What's wrong with you, Paul? Gulf War 1 was waged to protect a sovereign country's oil from being stolen by Saddam Hussein. Is everything we do bad in your eyes?

I wish all good things for you, Dear ISweety. And when you find yourself in a terrible fix, call us. We are more likely than the Muslim world to come to your aid.

The US has always helped the Gulf States. It doesn't hurt that their best friends of the Gulf are oil owners :p whose connections will benefit them greatly.
I wish you all the best too Shiloh, thank you.

Surprisingly Shiloh,governments are too busy with foreign invasions to have time to examine internal activity.
Well, if past precedent (like try the last 2000 years) is any indicator as to your willingness to examine the violence endemic to your culture, then the "invasions" you speak of (with contempt, of course) aren't really the problem here, are they? The "invasions" happened to stem from your fucked up countrymen bringing their religi-whacko violence stateside.

What's wrong with you, Paul? Gulf War 1 was waged to protect a sovereign country's oil from being stolen by Saddam Hussein. Is everything we do bad in your eyes?
Ah its a Friday nite Im sitting in with a beer being grumpy,tho.

Saddam shouldnt have went into Kuwait,to steal a soverign countries oil,especialy when its next door to Americas supply hehe.

Saddam shouldnt have went into Kuwait,to steal a soverign countries oil,especialy when its next door to Americas supply hehe.
Even though I completely disagree with your contention here, I still kinda chuckled when I read that. :)

Have a nice weekend, Paul.

Yeah you to babe.

Well, if past precedent (like try the last 2000 years) is any indicator as to your willingness to examine the violence endemic to your culture, then the "invasions" you speak of (with contempt, of course) aren't really the problem here, are they? The "invasions" happened to stem from your fucked up countrymen bringing their religi-whacko violence stateside.

2000 years is way too long. I'd say from the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WWI we've seen many corrupt Muslim nations.

2000 years is way too long. I'd say from the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WWI we've seen many corrupt Muslim nations.Fair enough. It was fewer than 2000 years ago that Islam was invented. Also, in many respects Islam was a solid force for academia and stability, for a while there.

Now, it is the polar opposite: anti-intellecual, divisive, violent. Damn, did we do all that?:cool:

Fair enough. It was fewer than 2000 years ago that Islam was invented. Also, in many respects Islam was a solid force for academia and stability, for a while there.

Now, it is the polar opposite: anti-intellecual, divisive, violent. Damn, did we do all that?:cool:

Of course not. All civilizations go through a rise and fall. Many events have led to the fall, the Crusades are one of the most notable. The most recent would be the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The Arab World used to be united, but after WWI and British retreat after WWII and the division of the Arab World under separate states caused them to be significantly weaker. Who knows, maybe sometime in the future Arabs will put all their differences aside, unite, and go through another rise.

Please stop trying to blame Islam's problems on the Crusades. The Crusades happened during the Middle Ages. The Crusades began in the twelfth century not because Christians suddenly decided to attack the peaceful Muslims but because the Turks conquered the territory and started harrassing and killing Christian pilgrims.

Blaming the Crusades for the sorry state of Islam today is like blaming pneumonia in a present day hospital ward on the Black Death.

Every time someone mentions the fact that Muslims are killing each other, are backward, are intolerant, it is blamed on the Crusades.

If Mulims haven't recovered from a series of wars that occured about eight hundred years ago, a series of wars they ultimately won there is something inherently wrong with them.

The Arab World used to be united, but after WWI and British retreat after WWII and the division of the Arab World under separate states caused them to be significantly weaker. Who knows, maybe sometime in the future Arabs will put all their differences aside, unite, and go through another rise.Wait a minute: did you just say that the demise of the Muslim world is due to self-rule? Ever since Europeans left you guys to run yourselves everything went to pot?

... I firmly believe the Palestinians need a peace settlement with Israel,so that all the killing can stop.

This simply wont happen as long as the US finances Israel and allows it to be the main agressor in the area.

Neither will it happen as long as the Palestinian government continues to insist on the destruction of Israel.

Please stop trying to blame Islam's problems on the Crusades.

I quote myself "Many events have led to the fall, the Crusades are one of the most notable"
I'm not blaming it on the Crusades, I'm saying that it's one of the many events that led to its fall. Don't worry Frogger, you should know by now that I don't like to throw the blame on others, and do admit to wrongdoing if it was done by people.

Wait a minute: did you just say that the demise of the Muslim world is due to self-rule? Ever since Europeans left you guys to run yourselves everything went to pot?

No, I didn't. The breaking of the unity of modern-day Arab nations, among other reasons, has led to the demise of the Muslim world. Who knows, maybe if it weren't for foreign invasion and occupation of Arab nations, the Arab world would've been a better place. The ultimate, modern-time reason, as I've mentioned, is the fall of the Ottoman empire. Taking advantage of that fall, colonizers saw the opportunity of dividing the Arab countires into separate states; it makes them weaker.
I know that you'd love to think that Muslims can't self-rule, but if you look back in time you'll see that they were able to that more efficiently than then-European nations. Civilizations go through rises and falls, and the Islamic world can go through another rise and probably will in the future.

Neither will it happen as long as the Palestinian government continues to insist on the destruction of Israel.

You realize that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel because of the beautiful treatment they receive from them.

Just a random question: Do any of you believe that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion) is in fact true and not a hoax?

Take a look at the Sykes-Picot Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement); mainly, the map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Sykes-Picot-1916.gif/300px-Sykes-Picot-1916.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sykes-Picot-1916.gif)

This event was obviously another reason for the fall of the Muslim world right after the Ottoman Empire went down.

Neither will it happen as long as the Palestinian government continues to insist on the destruction of Israel.
The Pal Authority would take a just settlement tomorrow,would Israel?

well, from what i ahve seen that is taught in schools there and shown on TV it seems clear how.


You know, if we supported the Arab states like we support Israel, they would not be so anti-US. They hate us, because we show we "hate" them. They did not "hate" us before Israel was formed. We need to show some even-handedness here. We outright, blatant, and mostly blind support for Israel is what pisses these people off. So, first we support Israel then the Arabs hate us and then we say "see, the arabs hate us!". Think about it - just an idea.

You know, if we supported the Arab states like we support Israel, they would not be so anti-US. They hate us, because we show we "hate" them. They did not "hate" us before Israel was formed. We need to show some even-handedness here. We outright, blatant, and mostly blind support for Israel is what pisses these people off. So, first we support Israel then the Arabs hate us and then we say "see, the arabs hate us!". Think about it - just an idea.


(I'm going to argue with myself here). With the above being said however, look at the bomb attack on Bhutto in Pakistan. We don't see bombs in non-muslim countries as a form of protest against a political leader.

Well we all know this report from 2 Harvard Profs. It was condemned and eventually Harvard had to put out a statement saying these are only views of the 2 profs.

http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

Interesting.Ive always said that one of the problems in the region is the US financing and arming Israel,to the cost of the Palestinians.
Militarily supporting the Gulf states oil sheiks,who are detested by the poor Arabs.

I don't think it can be argued that the U.S. supports Israel far more than it supports the surrounding Arab states. How else should the U.S. act though? Of all the nations in the Middle East which is a democracy? Of all the nations in the Middle East which has no anti-U.S. rhetoric coming out of it? Of all the nations in the Middle East which is threatened with total annihilation by its neighbors?

Ideally the United States should be even handed in its relations with the countries of the region but realistically it cannot be. I hate some of the things Israel does but I don't hate them to the extent that I will allow Israel to be destroyed.

Paul, the Palestinians had an offer on the table when Arafat was alive and they turned it down. While some Palestinians would be happy with a Palestinian State there are others who will be satisfied only with the complete destruction of Israel.

Of all the nations in the Middle East which has no anti-U.S. rhetoric coming out of it? .

Maybe the anti-US rhetoric is coming because we are NOT supporting them? It may be a vicious cycle. Look at UAE, it is a kingdom and not a democracy. However, the US supports them and there is no anti-US bullshit coming from there.

We supported them in The Balkans and Indonesia and that hasn't stopped the anti-Western rhetoric or actions in those areas. There is an inherent instability and anti-Western outlook among most Muslim nations and among the Arab nations in particular.

I don't think it can be argued that the U.S. supports Israel far more than it supports the surrounding Arab states. How else should the U.S. act though? Of all the nations in the Middle East which is a democracy? Of all the nations in the Middle East which has no anti-U.S. rhetoric coming out of it? Of all the nations in the Middle East which is threatened with total annihilation by its neighbors?

Firstly, a state doesn't necessarily have to have a democracy to function well. The UAE, ruled by a royal family, is a great example. Secondly, Israel obviously has no anti-US rhetoric coming out of it because it is completely supported by the States at the expense of the Palestinian people, and all other Arab Muslims and Christians who are now unable to visit one of their most holiest lands. Finally, Israel is threatened by this total annihilation due to obvious reasons, such as their bad treatment of Palestinians and enforcing their rules and ideologies on people who they've wrongly taken land away from.

I personally believe that there is a staggering difference between Judaism and Zionism. Zionists, I am very opposed to. Peaceful Jews, I'm fine with. In fact, I think they should be able to live in Jerusalem and go on about their religion and business as they like.
The States should really stop being biased and one-sided here, and consider the "other's" feelings, and ask themselves why is it that these people have such animosity towards them? They're not exactly born with it, it came as a result of something that the US did, and that it should stop doing and should try to handle this situation as diplomatically as possible.

You're right about there being some people wishing for the complete annihilation of Israel, and they're usually the people who have lived through the worst treatment from the Israeli's. To be completely honest, I'd tell you that in my ideal world, I'd have loved for the war of '48 to have never happened, and for the Jew's to come live in the state of Palestine which would've stayed Palestine until today; there probably wouldn't have been a WTC Attack either :rolleyes:
Should've, could've, would've... Won't help now.

I don't think it can be argued that the U.S. supports Israel far more than it supports the surrounding Arab states. How else should the U.S. act though? Of all the nations in the Middle East which is a democracy? Of all the nations in the Middle East which has no anti-U.S. rhetoric coming out of it? Of all the nations in the Middle East which is threatened with total annihilation by its neighbors?
There was a very strong left wing in Israel,tho its epped away of late.

Ideally the United States should be even handed in its relations with the countries of the region but realistically it cannot be. I hate some of the things Israel does but I don't hate them to the extent that I will allow Israel to be destroyed.Therein lies the problem.Why can it not be even handed?
Israel wont be destroyed by anyone and it sure dosent need anymore US aid to defend itself.

Paul, the Palestinians had an offer on the table when Arafat was alive and they turned it down.The deal you refer to got hung in on the Israeli side,who didnt agree to 13% of the West Bank being handed over to the Paletinians,the main objecter,new settlers. While some Palestinians would be happy with a Palestinian State there are others who will be satisfied only with the complete destruction of Israel.This is true,tho a small percentage of Palestinians.As we seen this week,Condy Rice tried to isolate Hamas.

I personally believe that there is a staggering difference between Judaism and Zionism. Zionists, I am very opposed to. Peaceful Jews, I'm fine with. In fact, I think they should be able to live in Jerusalem and go on about their religion and business as they like.
The States should really stop being biased and one-sided here, and consider the "other's" feelings, and ask themselves why is it that these people have such animosity towards them? They're not exactly born with it, it came as a result of something that the US did, and that it should stop doing and should try to handle this situation as diplomatically as possible.


Excellent commentary.

Well spoken.

The States should really stop being biased and one-sided here, and consider the "other's" feelings, and ask themselves why is it that these people have such animosity towards them? They're not exactly born with it.....
You're absolutely correct, they're not - to be completely honest, I don't think they learn the "down with America" chant until 4. Which is highly convenient because that indelible mind-fuck comes along roughly 2 years prior to them getting their first machine gun.

You're absolutely correct, they're not - to be completely honest, I don't think they learn the "down with America" chant until 4. Which is highly convenient because that indelible mind-fuck comes along roughly 2 years prior to them getting their first machine gun.

Yes Prae when people ask me how I spent my childhood, I reminisce about the old days when my parents bought me machine guns for my birthday :rolleyes: and asked me to chant "Kill Americans" over and over again... I especially loved that birthday when they bought me a full-blown cannon to practice my aiming skills :bombout: using large weaponary, you never know when I could use those skills!

Seriously Prae, that was way over exaggerated.

This is true,tho a small percentage of Palestinians.As we seen this week,Condy Rice tried to isolate Hamas.

Paul,

That small percentage as you call it elected Hamas to rule half of Palestine. You know, Hamas that wants the complete destruction of Israel. How small a percentage does it take to elect a government?

Yes Prae when people ask me how I spent my childhood, I reminisce about the old days when my parents bought me machine guns for my birthday :rolleyes: and asked me to chant "Kill Americans" over and over again... I especially loved that birthday when they bought me a full-blown cannon to practice my aiming skills :bombout: using large weaponary, you never know when I could use those skills!

Seriously Prae, that was way over exaggerated.
You're a female - of course they're not gonna buy you weapons, you're supposed to be barefoot, pregnant, silent, and covered. The weapons go to the "highly superior" males in Muslim households.

All joking aside, you live in the least fucked up place in the Middle East, IS. I wasn't trying to cite you as an example. Think Iran, Syria, Libya etc.

You're a female - of course they're not gonna buy you weapons, you're supposed to be barefoot, pregnant, silent, and covered. The weapons go to the "highly superior" males in Muslim households.

All joking aside, you live in the least fucked up place in the Middle East, IS. I wasn't trying to cite you as an example. Think Iran, Syria, Libya etc.

OK I'm barefoot right now, silent cause I'm typing, not pregnant yet, and not exactly covered. I'm half-terrorist? :lolhit:
I should ask my brothers if they could teach me a thing or two about shooting, you never know when a covered pregnant lady will need those skills ;)

I personally know a lot of people living in the regions you mentioned. They're not really what you mentioned :p this doesn't happen the way you think it does. I won't be naive and say that Hizbollah/Hamas groups don't teach their children to "kill" at a small age; but then again, they're a drop in the ocean when you think of the 300 million + people living in the ME region. Sadly, they're the most notorious. We moderates are too boring for the media :rolleyes:

Paul,

That small percentage as you call it elected Hamas to rule half of Palestine. You know, Hamas that wants the complete destruction of Israel. How small a percentage does it take to elect a government?

Just thought of something... Isn't it true that only around 21% of all Americans actually vote?

Paul,

That small percentage as you call it elected Hamas to rule half of Palestine. You know, Hamas that wants the complete destruction of Israel. How small a percentage does it take to elect a government?
Frogger,
you know as well as I do that Hamas was elected because of the 'humanitarian programme' they were/are running in Gaza.By this I mean Free Healthcare-Free Schooling-Food Programme. When your hungry and/or sick,with no means to treat either,youll take a hand up from anyone.
Fatah are the 'acceptable' face of Palestinian people,even tho they are rotten from the top down.

Secretary Rice is doing her best to isolate Hamas from any peace deal.


Take a look at Southern Lebanon.Hezbollah are doing the exact same thing there as Hamas

Just thought of something... Isn't it true that only around 21% of all Americans actually vote?
No, that's not true at all, actually. Why??? Is that what your "free" press reported in Emarat Al Youm?

Many will say 52% of Americans vote (it's an old figure that garnered some acceptance back in the day), however, IMO, it's very misleading. Essentially, it means 52% of the eligible population voted. The "eligible population" simply means the number of adult citizens, which is about 198 million. Of that group, 102 million voted in the last election. In other words, if you asked a random group of adults on the street, just over half would say they voted.

The reason that's misleading is because not every adult is eligible to vote. First, you have to register. Second, you can only vote in your place of residence, so if you've just moved, you have to do an absentee ballot or register a month prior to the election.

A less misleading statistic would be the one which is never reported - the percentage of registered voters who actually voted. In 1998, 62% of the elegible population was registered to vote. Assuming the same figure is true this year, that means that 83% of all registered voters actually voted in this election. That means, if you asked a random group of registered voters, 5 out of 6 of them would say, yes, they voted.

Secretary Rice is doing her best to isolate Hamas from any peace deal.
As she should be.

As she should be.
Imagine me agreeing with a Administration Offical.

Tho that said.

Miss Rice,was putting it about that the US wished to see a Palestinian state,and would do everything they could to nessitate one.

I just have a bad feeling she's bullshitting here.

I just have a bad feeling she's bullshitting here.
It doesn't matter whether she is or isn't - the Palestinians won't be happy until Israel is erased. Ergo, there's NO solution those people will ever be amenable to, period.

If we're comparing percentages, Innocent Sweetie, let's compare the percentage of Americans who blow up innocent people to the percent of Muslims who blow up innocent people. Let's compare the percent of Americans who call for he destruction of Muslim countries to the percent of Muslims who call for the destruction of the United States.

One reason the percentage of Americans who vote is as low as it is is the fact that Americans are basically satisfied with their government. Even when the President and Congress have low approval ratings Americans know that the four major political parties are all clustered around the center. They may prefer one party over another but they can live with any of them.

Your generalising a bit here.
The majority of Palestinians have always supported the PLO and in turn Fatah.
If your conclusion was correct,the people would have abondaned Fatah long ago.

What gerneralizing are you talking about?

I'm confused too, Frogger... :confused:

Sorry:
Frogger and I posted at the same time.

I was answering pst 90 there.

If we're comparing percentages, Innocent Sweetie, let's compare the percentage of Americans who blow up innocent people to the percent of Muslims who blow up innocent people. Let's compare the percent of Americans who call for he destruction of Muslim countries to the percent of Muslims who call for the destruction of the United States.

One reason the percentage of Americans who vote is as low as it is is the fact that Americans are basically satisfied with their government. Even when the President and Congress have low approval ratings Americans know that the four major political parties are all clustered around the center. They may prefer one party over another but they can live with any of them.

That was uncalled for, I didn't mean to imply that I was attempting to compare these votes, no need to get defensive. I was just asking to get the reply I got from Prae, the one about misleading statistics and whether or not what I heard was true, that's all.
On that note, how about comparing the number of Muslims who aggrevated an American state for years, claiming the land to be rightfully theirs and using undiplomatic and inhumane means in achieving the claim, to the number of Americans doing the same thing? It works both ways.

It doesn't matter whether she is or isn't - the Palestinians won't be happy until Israel is erased. Ergo, there's NO solution those people will ever be amenable to, period.

Firstly, thanks for the reply to my voting percentage question; that information was useful.

Secondly, I wouldn't generalize that statement about Palestinians. Sure, there's a number of them who fit the description, but considering current circumstances I'm sure many would be happy with a set divide for the meantime at least.

On that note, how about comparing the number of Muslims who aggrevated an American state for years, claiming the land to be rightfully theirs and using undiplomatic and inhumane means in achieving the claim, to the number of Americans doing the same thing? It works both ways.

What Muslim land have we confiscated? What Muslim land have we claimed to be rightfully ours. As was stated previously, the former Ottoman Empire was taken over as colonies by France, Great Britain and Russia. The United States had ne and has no colonies in the Middle East

What Muslim land have we confiscated? What Muslim land have we claimed to be rightfully ours. As was stated previously, the former Ottoman Empire was taken over as colonies by France, Great Britain and Russia. The United States had ne and has no colonies in the Middle East

I meant US financial and military support for Israel.

It doesn't matter whether she is or isn't - the Palestinians won't be happy until Israel is erased. Ergo, there's NO solution those people will ever be amenable to, period.

Pretty much.

I meant US financial and military support for Israel.


So people are being killed because they support Israel. Almost 3,000 innocent people were killed because of America's support of Israel. Why are Sunnis killing Shia? The Shia don't support Israel. Why are Sunnis and Shia killing Kurds? Kurds don't support Israel. Why are Sunnis and Shia killing Assyrian Christians? The Assyrians don't support Israel.

They are killing because of a mindset that says destroy anyone who is different from you.