So people are being killed because they support Israel. Almost 3,000 innocent people were killed because of America's support of Israel. Why are Sunnis killing Shia? The Shia don't support Israel. Why are Sunnis and Shia killing Kurds? Kurds don't support Israel. Why are Sunnis and Shia killing Assyrian Christians? The Assyrians don't support Israel.

They are killing because of a mindset that says destroy anyone who is different from you.
Exactly. They're a rather savage lot, aren't they?

So people are being killed because they support Israel. Almost 3,000 innocent people were killed because of America's support of Israel. Why are Sunnis killing Shia? The Shia don't support Israel. Why are Sunnis and Shia killing Kurds? Kurds don't support Israel. Why are Sunnis and Shia killing Assyrian Christians? The Assyrians don't support Israel.

They are killing because of a mindset that says destroy anyone who is different from you.

Not people in general Frogger, specific ones.
I hardly think "because since they were born they wanted to kill us for our cultural values" is a plausible reason. It's not because of "the mindset" you speak of. It mainly has to do with political reasons throughout history that I have pointed out in this thread.

So that justifies it?!?

He was simply pointing out (as per your claim here) that "small groups" of Muslims are killing everyone, regardless of whether or not they support Israel.

So people are being killed because they support Israel. Almost 3,000 innocent people were killed because of America's support of Israel. Why are Sunnis killing Shia? The Shia don't support Israel. Why are Sunnis and Shia killing Kurds? Kurds don't support Israel. Why are Sunnis and Shia killing Assyrian Christians?

Don't forget Hindus. Muslims have been killing Hindus at least since India/Pakistan became independant.

That whole Middle East/Persian region has trouble getting along with anyone they interact with....maybe that's just what happens when your religion dictates that you destroy all "infidels."

Pakistan being one of the Bush Administrations main allies in the war on terror,that Pakistan.

[color=firebrick]Not people in general Frogger, specific ones.


Yes, Innocent Sweety, specific ones. Specific ones meaning anyone who does not agree with them.

Sunnis and Shiites disagree on the succession of Imans after Mohammad. Because of that they kill each other. They kill Kurds, Christians and Bahais simply because they are not Muslim.

You can try to deny it all you want, Innocent Sweety but the truth of the matter is, Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion of hatred and violence. It is a religion that hates anyone different. It is a religion that hates women. It is a religion that hates modernity. It is a religion that hates, hates, hates. It wouldn't be as bad if it stopped at simply hating but for far too many Muslims that hatred must be transformed into actions. Those who are different must be killed. Muslims who believe differently must be killed. Muslims who convert to another faith must be killed. Gays must be killed. Girls and women who are raped must be killed. Believers in other religions must be killed.

Islam respects no one. Ancient statues of Buddah. Blow them up.

Girls wanting to go to school. Blow up the school.

People want to listen to music they like. Threaten to kill them.

A girl doesn't want to marry the first cousin her parents picked for her to marry. Kill her.

Someone draws a cartoon you don't like. Threaten to kill them.

It wouldn't be as bad if it stopped at simply hating but for far too many Muslims that hatred must be transformed into actions. Those who are different must be killed. Muslims who believe differently must be killed. Muslims who convert to another faith must be killed. Gays must be killed. Girls and women who are raped must be killed. Believers in other religions must be killed.

Islam respects no one. Ancient statues of Buddah. Blow them up.

Girls wanting to go to school. Blow up the school.

People want to listen to music they like. Threaten to kill them.

A girl doesn't want to marry the first cousin her parents picked for her to marry. Kill her.

Someone draws a cartoon you don't like. Threaten to kill them.
I know what you'll say, IS - it's not like that in the UAE, and you know what, I believe you. Typically, where there's money, there's sanity. What you fail to understand (or admit to) is that it's like that pretty much everywhere else in the Middle East. Outside of North Africa in it's entirety (another Muslim stronghold), 95% of the M.E. scares the shit outta me. Here's a sobering reality - when you vacation in Europe, do you fear for your life? No. When white people travel to your neck of the woods, they do, and rightfully so; they'll be killed without compunction, and don't tell me that I'm overly "generalizing" here either, because what I just stated is nothing more than cold, hard fact, period.

Here's a sobering reality - when you vacation in Europe, do you fear for your life? No. When white people travel to your neck of the woods, they do, and rightfully so; they'll be killed without compunction, and don't tell me that I'm overly "generalizing" here either, because what I just stated is nothing more than cold, hard fact, period.Where, besides Iraq, do you see that happening?

Iran, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, parts of Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and most certainly, Pakistan. What did I leave out - like 4 or 5 countries??? And that's just off the top of my head. Given your color, Jester, you might feel comfortable there (until you spoke to someone, that is), however I, personally, would not.

Odds have it I'd be dead if I went to any of them.

Theres parts on east London would be a bit iffy also.

You do have a point of sorts.

Do you think the Muslim world is racist against whites,or is it a western thing?

Iran, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, parts of Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and most certainly, Pakistan. What did I leave out - like 4 or 5 countries??? And that's just off the top of my head. Given your color, Jester, you might feel comfortable there (until you spoke to someone, that is), however I, personally, would not.

Odds have it I'd be dead if I went to any of them.
Do you have examples to show that a Westerner would probably be killed if he visited those countries? Because I certainly don't. To the contrary, I've heard that thousands of Western tourists visit those countries without incident.

Theres parts on east London would be a bit iffy also.
I'll take your word for it, although that surprises me. Aside from my accent, I felt right at home when I was in England. I mean, hell - for the most part, I look just like your every day good-looking Brit, except, on average, I had better and straighter teeth than most of 'em did. :D

Do you mean to say there are lots of Muslims in east London???
You do have a point of sorts.
Damn skippy, I do.
Do you think the Muslim world is racist against whites,or is it a western thing?
A bit of both, I suppose. Years of "oppression", they see it as - whereas I see it as years of being fucked over by their tribal/royal dictatorships (which were supported by us outta mere convenience more than anything else, but hey - it's not our job to rid them of their corrupt leadership (unless it directly benefits us, of course)). In all seriousness, we're not running a non-profit benevolent society over here. We're a country no different than anyone else.

Do you have examples to show that a Westerner would probably be killed if he visited those countries? Because I certainly don't. To the contrary, I've heard that thousands of Western tourists visit those countries without incident.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_1165.html

PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This information is current as of today, Tue Oct 23 17:30:00 2007.

Middle East and North Africa

May 14, 2007


This Public Announcement is being updated to alert Americans to ongoing security concerns in the Middle East and North Africa, including ongoing violence in Iraq. U.S. citizens are reminded to maintain a high level of vigilance and to take appropriate steps to increase their security awareness. This Public Announcement supersedes the Public Announcement issued on November 20, 2006.

Credible information indicates terrorist groups seek to continue attacks against U.S. interests in the Middle East and North Africa. Terrorist actions may include bombings, hijackings, hostage taking, kidnappings, and assassinations. While conventional weapons such as explosive devices are a more immediate threat in many areas, use of non-conventional weapons, including chemical or biological agents, must be considered a possible threat. Terrorists do not distinguish between official and civilian targets. Increased security at official U.S. facilities has led terrorists and their sympathizers to seek softer targets such as public transportation, residential areas, and public areas where people congregate, including restaurants, hotels, clubs, and shopping areas. The September 2006 attack by assailants used improvised explosives, gunfire, and vehicles laden with explosives on the U.S. Embassy in Syria. A bombing targeting a bus transporting foreign workers of a U.S. company in Algeria took place in December 2006. There was a series of bombings in Morocco in March and April 2007, two of which occurred simultaneously outside the U.S. Consulate General and the private American Language Center in Casablanca. Additionally, an attack took place on the American International School in Gaza in April 2007. These events underscore the intent of terrorist entities to target facilities perceived to cater to Westerners. Potential targets are not limited to those companies or establishments with overt U.S. ties. For instance, terrorists may target movie theaters, liquor stores, bars, casinos, or any similar type establishment, regardless of whether they are owned and operated by host country nationals. Due to varying degrees of security at all such locations, Americans should be particularly vigilant when visiting these establishments.

The violence in Iraq and the clashes between Palestinians and Israelis have the potential to produce demonstrations and unrest throughout the region. In addition, the Department of State continues to warn of the possibility for violent actions against U.S. citizens and interests in the region. Anti-American violence could include possible terrorist actions against aviation, ground transportation, and maritime interests, specifically in the Middle East, including the Red Sea, Persian Gulf, the Arabian Peninsula, and North Africa.

The Department is concerned that extremists may be planning to carry out attacks against Westerners and oil workers on the Arabian Peninsula. Armed attacks targeting foreign nationals in Saudi Arabia that resulted in many deaths and injuries, including U.S. citizens, appear to have been preceded by extensive surveillance. Tourist destinations in Egypt that are frequented by Westerners were attacked in April 2006, resulting in many deaths and injuries, including Americans. Extremists may be surveilling Westerners, particularly at hotels, housing areas, and rental car facilities. Potential targets may include U.S. contractors, particularly those related to military interests. Financial or economic venues of value also could be considered as possible targets; the failed attack on the Abqaiq oil processing facility in Saudi Arabia in late February 2006 and the September 2006 attack on oil facilities in Yemen are examples.

Americans considering seaborne travel near the Horn of Africa or in the southern Red Sea should exercise extreme caution, as there have been several incidents of armed attacks and robberies at sea by pirates in the last year. Military action by U.S. and allied navies in several subsequent incidents resulted in the capture or death of pirates threatening international commerce. No U.S. citizens have been hurt in these attacks. When transiting around the Horn of Africa or in the Red Sea near Yemen, it is strongly recommended that vessels travel in convoys, and maintain good communications contact at all times.

On occasion, the travel of official personnel at embassies and consulates is restricted because of security concerns, and these posts may recommend that private U.S. citizens avoid the same areas if at all possible. Services to U.S. citizens in countries abroad may be affected if employees' movements are restricted. If this happens, U.S. embassies and consulates will make every effort to provide emergency services to U.S. citizens. In case office hours are reduced, U.S. citizens in need of emergency assistance should telephone the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate before visiting in person.

In addition, U.S. citizens planning to travel to the Middle East or North Africa should consult the Department of State's country-specific Public Announcements, Travel Warnings, Consular Information Sheets, the Worldwide Caution Public Announcement and other information, available on the Consular Affairs Internet website at http://travel.state.gov. Up-to-date information on security conditions can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 in the U.S. and Canada and, for callers outside the U.S. and Canada, a regular toll line at 1-202-501-4444.

I'll take your word for it, although that surprises me. Aside from my accent, I felt right at home when I was in England. I mean, hell - for the most part, I look just like your average good-looking Brit, except, on average, I had better and straighter teeth than most of 'em did. :D

Do you mean to say there are lots of Muslims in east London???
Take it from me,theres parts of london,especially down the east end toward the docks,and north London,which are predominatly 'non-white'.
When I worked over there,the only whites we met were foreigners,Irish-Aussies-NZers-South Africans,rarely met a white Brit.


A bit of both, I suppose. Years of "oppression", they see it as - whereas I see it as years of being fucked over by their tribal/royal dictatorships (which were supported by us outta mere convenience more than anything else, but hey - it's not our job to rid them of their corrupt leadership (unless it directly benefits us, of course)). In all seriousness, we're not running a non-profit benevolent society over here. We're a country no different than anyone else.Well Im gonna disagree with u here bud.I see it as hatred of past colonial masters,namely the Brits,French,but further down Africa the Portugese,tho the Dutch seem to mix well,they're so laid back.

Mostly the Brits.I would go so far as to say they're the most hated nation on Earth.

Do you have examples to show that a Westerner would probably be killed if he visited those countries? Because I certainly don't. To the contrary, I've heard that thousands of Western tourists visit those countries without incident.
Ahh, you're playing the liberal game now; cite some examples, or it's a phony assertion, right? Open a newspaper, Jester. Where else do you hear of people being indiscriminately slaughtered? I'll even do you one better than that - where else do you hear of people being slaughtered on the basis of their creed, nationality, political beliefs, sexual orientation, or (and this is my favorite) clothing choices?

The "thousands" of western tourists you speak of are most likely Muslims themselves making the pilgrimage back to Mecca. Either that, or they're fuckin' nuts - you choose.

My sister and her 3 daughters visited Egypt a few months ago,done the pyrimids the nile and a few days in..................cant rmember,its on the red sea,good scuba diving,anyway,I thought they were nuts.
Had no problems,apart from the heat.

But I would advice Americans to stay away from these countries.

Mostly the Brits.I would go so far as to say they're the most hated nation on Earth.
I think we're vying for position based on, primarily, the structure they created in the first place. :D

That said, (and don't hate me here) I love the Brits. What an amazing country. Look at what they accomplished! I mean, how else can we measure a country's worth?

My sister and her 3 daughters visited Egypt a few months ago,done the pyrimids the nile and a few days in..................cant rmember,its on the red sea,good scuba diving,anyway,I thought they were nuts.
Had no problems,apart from the heat.

But I would advice Americans to stay away from these countries.
I specifically said "parts of Egypt" for a reason. That said, I agree with you.

When transiting around the Horn of Africa or in the Red Sea near Yemen, it is strongly recommended that vessels travel in convoys, and maintain good communications contact at all times.
It'd probably be a good idea to avoid Yemen too, I guess.

Where, besides Iraq, do you see that happening?

Indonesia, Afghanstan, Pakistan.

My sister and her 3 daughters visited Egypt a few months ago,done the pyrimids the nile and a few days in..................cant rmember,its on the red sea,good scuba diving,anyway,I thought they were nuts.
Had no problems,apart from the heat.

But I would advice Americans to stay away from these countries.

I am glad your sister and her three daughters weren't attacked and killed like those European tourist who were visiting the pyramids a few years back.

I am glad your sister and her three daughters weren't attacked and killed like those European tourist who were visiting the pyramids a few years back.
Thanks Frogger.
It was the first time herself and her daughters had been away together,unfortunatly the week after she got back she was diagnosed with stomach cancer,tho she fighting it.

pm me her first name and I will include her in my prayers. No last name, just a first name to help me focus my prayers.

I think we're vying for position based on, primarily, the structure they created in the first place. :D

That said, (and don't hate me here) I love the Brits. What an amazing country. Look at what they accomplished! I mean, how else can we measure a country's worth?
I personaly have no hatred for the brits,whats in the past is in the past.As I rule,I dont hate anyone,I think I said before,hating eats away at the person who hates,not the object of your hatred so anyway........................

Now Prae you have me baffled here.

''how else can we measure a country's worth''.

I would measure a country firstly by its people,its culture and history,its social structure ie its medical facilities-schools-ROADS-transport,that sort of thing.How much its financial worth dosent come into it.

pm me her first name and I will include her in my prayers. No last name, just a first name to help me focus my prayers.
Right will do.

Thank you.

Ahh, you're playing the liberal game now; cite some examples, or it's a phony assertion, right?
How is asking for something to back up an argument a "liberal game?"

Open a newspaper, Jester. Where else do you hear of people being indiscriminately slaughtered? I'll even do you one better than that - where else do you hear of people being slaughtered on the basis of their creed, nationality, political beliefs, sexual orientation, or (and this is my favorite) clothing choices?
I'm not saying those things don't happen. I'm saying that if a Westerner goes to a Muslim country it doesn't mean he's probably going to be killed. That's just ridiculous. You sound like someone who won't get on a plane because he reads about plane crashes in the newspaper.

The "thousands" of western tourists you speak of are most likely Muslims themselves making the pilgrimage back to Mecca. Either that, or they're fuckin' nuts - you choose.Saudi Arabia is the only country that Muslims would go for the Haaj. Western tourists go to a lot of other countries in the region as well.

Whether they're nuts on or not is irrelevant. What matters is that the vast majority of them come home safely.

This is a list of countries on the U.S. traveler's warning list. The highlighted countries are Muslim dominated. Those in italics either have large Muslim populations or are subject to attacks by Muslim terrorists.



Travel Warnings are issued when the State Department recommends that Americans avoid a certain country. The countries listed below are currently on that list. In addition to this list, the State Department issues Consular Information Sheets for every country of the world with information on such matters as the health conditions, crime, unusual currency or entry requirements, any areas of instability, and the location of the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate in the subject country.

Sri Lanka 10/19/2007
Kenya 10/18/2007
Lebanon 10/17/2007
Indonesia 10/05/2007
Yemen 09/24/2007
Nepal 09/24/2007
Pakistan 09/21/2007
Syria 09/18/2007
Algeria 09/14/2007
Timor-Leste 09/12/2007
Sudan 09/06/2007
Haiti 08/31/2007
Burundi 08/09/2007
Central African Republic 08/09/2007
Iraq 07/23/2007
Israel, the West Bank and Gaza 07/13/2007
Saudi Arabia 06/14/2007
Chad 06/11/2007
Colombia 06/04/2007
Côte d'Ivoire 06/01/2007
Iran 05/31/2007
Eritrea 05/02/2007
Philippines 04/27/2007
Uzbekistan 04/25/2007
Congo, Democratic Republic of the 04/24/2007
Afghanistan 04/04/2007
Nigeria 01/19/2007
Somalia 06/05/2006


I don't know about you, Jester but when more than 70% of the countries on the traveler warning list are either Muslim dominated or subject to attack by Muslims it raises alarm bells in my mind.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, heheheheh lets just give money to the Arabs so they can blow people up.

................ cool ................ bang bang


I support Israel despite the country's shortcomings. I support Israel because I have far more faith in the Israeli people and the Israeli government than I do in the Arab people and Arab governments.

I do not worry that Israel will send suicide bombers to kill Americans on American soil. I do not worry that Jews will be preaching the destruction of the United States in their synagogues as Muslims do in their Mosques. I do not worry that a group of Jews from Israel will hijack an airplane and fly it into an American building killing almost 3,000 innocent people.

I remember no pictures of gleeful Israelis dancing in the streets after the World Trade Center was destroyed. I cannot recall a member of the Israeli government calling America the Great Satan and calling for its destruction.

Yes, Israel is far from perfect. Israel does things I do not like. Isreal acts like a bully in the region. Despite it all I will take Israel over all the other nations in the region.

I don't know about you, Jester but when more than 70% of the countries on the traveler warning list are either Muslim dominated or subject to attack by Muslims it raises alarm bells in my mind.
I'm aware of the State Department's travel warnings and don't deny that there's danger in travelling to those countries. My point, however, is that attacks on foreigners in those countries (with the exception of Iraq) are not a regular occurence, and that the chances of becoming a victim of such an attack are still quite small.

Would you go there? If so, then to even the playing field (because I'm white), why don't you show up in Karachi wearing a teeshirt with an American flag on it. Let's see how long you last - but hey, don't worry, pal - I'm sure you'll be perfectly safe there.

Enjoy the flight.

Would you go there? If so, then to even the playing field (because I'm white), why don't you show up in Karachi wearing a teeshirt with an American flag on it. Let's see how long you last - but hey, don't worry, pal - I'm sure you'll be perfectly safe there.

Enjoy the flight.
Bad arguement.
Theres parts of Los Angeles you wouldnt be safe in wearing a flag shirt.

Would you go there?
It just so happens that I am going to one of those countries, though not as a tourist.

If so, then to even the playing field (because I'm white), why don't you show up in Karachi wearing a teeshirt with an American flag on it. Let's see how long you last - but hey, don't worry, pal - I'm sure you'll be perfectly safe there.Do you honestly believe that no white people ever go to Karachi and come back alive?

Enjoy the flight.I'll try to.

Some very interesting answers there Jester.
You take care of yourself,no matter where ya go.

Thank you, paul.

Do you honestly believe that no white people ever go to Karachi and come back alive?
Sure they do, they wear service uniforms. Whatever you do, Jester, be careful and good luck.

Pakistan is safe. Just ask Ron Pearl's widow.

...when more than 70% of the countries on the traveler warning list are either Muslim dominated or subject to attack by Muslims it raises alarm bells in my mind.This is an absolutely valid point. I travel a lot, and am constantly alert in these places. (Though, in a bombing, IED or otherwise, vigilence is less than effective. You can't see the damn things!)

Pakistan is safe. Just ask Ron Pearl's widow.Or anyone there to see the former president drive past.

Sure they do, they wear service uniforms.
To my knowledge, there are no US servicemembers in Pakistan, besides perhaps the ones who work in the embassy.

Whatever you do, Jester, be careful and good luck.Thanks.

Jester,

The difference between the danger level in Muslim countries and other countries is the targeting. I might go to Denmark and get mugged and even killed. I might go to Poland and have the same thing happen. It won't happen because I have been purposely targeted though. In far too many Muslim countries my life would be in danger simply because I am American or a Westerner, or a Christian.

Jester,

The difference between the danger level in Muslim countries and other countries is the targeting. I might go to Denmark and get mugged and even killed. I might go to Poland and have the same thing happen. It won't happen because I have been purposely targeted though. In far too many Muslim countries my life would be in danger simply because I am American or a Westerner, or a Christian.
I don't deny that. However, I wasn't comparing Muslim countries to other countries. I was saying that becoming a victim of terrorism in a Muslim country isn't as probable as one might think.

Jester,

The difference between the danger level in Muslim countries and other countries is the targeting. I might go to Denmark and get mugged and even killed. I might go to Poland and have the same thing happen. It won't happen because I have been purposely targeted though. In far too many Muslim countries my life would be in danger simply because I am American or a Westerner, or a Christian.It is the classic definition of a Hate Crime. And it is very real.

I was saying that becoming a victim of terrorism in a Muslim country isn't as probable as one might think.
I'd give myself a 50% chance of returning alive if I wondered the streets of Karachi alone for 1 day. If the actual figure was only 37.12%, does that make it any better; I mean, hey - statistically speaking, the odds are in my favor, right? C'mon, Jester - these people are ruled by religious zealots who hide under the thinly veiled guise of "peace and love" and enforce their "doctrine" with an iron fist. They advocate violence in everything they do. Innocent Sweety is a perfect example of how twisted their mindset and cultural values are. She circuitously justifies the violence by saying that she doesn't (in any way, whatsoever) "endorse" it, HOWEVER - there's no arguing with the end result when you see how effective it is. The moral of the story is THEY'RE ALL LIKE THAT - it's endemic to their culture. Are they all murderers? Absolutely not, but the upbringing and rationale their beholden to fosters a mentality of acceptance, or at least, at a very minimum, it justifies what bad men do in the name of "Allah".

Pick a major city in Iran, Pakistan, Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, etc., and walk the streets alone for ONE week. I hate to break it to ya, dude, but you're comin' home in a body bag. Come to think of it, probably two separate bags; one for your torso and the other for your head. You wanna go there - BRING FRIENDS and heavy artillery.

Dont you think millions of Muslims live in 'fear' of the radicals,just as much,if not more,than westerners.

That bomb in Pakistan is a good example.

Yes, I'm sure they do because the real "radicals" don't care about their life any more than they do the lives of their fellow countrymen. Once again, the culprit here is their fucked up religion. It dictates everything, from their clothing choices to the standards they live by, and it (in a very roundabout way) justifies the pervasive violence they've come to accept as "necessary". I'm talking about psychology here, and theirs is, unless they dump that religion, simply beyond repair.

Once again, the culprit here is their fucked up religion. It dictates everything, from their clothing choices to the standards they live by, and it (in a very roundabout way) justifies the pervasive violence they've come to accept as "necessary". I'm talking about psychology here, and theirs is, unless they dump that religion, simply beyond repair.


If you are a follower of any religion, chances are that it is going to dictate your life. And you can make the same argument for almost everyone. For Christians and Jews and other religious groups. And for political groups, conservatives and Liberals and everyone in between. You obviously have a great amount of hate for Muslims. And that's too bad because they are not going to go anywhere.

If you are a follower of any religion, chances are that it is going to dictate your life. And you can make the same argument for almost everyone. For Christians and Jews and other religious groups.
What a bunch of bullshit; first off, Googs, "religion" doesn't dictate ANYTHING in my life, and moreover, it certainly doesn't do it by force. You may be accustomed to having prescribed "morality" shoved down your throat via "Islamic law", but I'm not. Secondly, no one in the West is blowing people away in the name Jesus (but by all means, feel free to cite some obscure news source that "proves" me wrong in that regard, 'cause I know you live for that kinda shit - it's your M.O.) Thirdly, and most importantly, (and I want you to pay attention to this part) at least I can voluntarily follow whatever philosophy I choose without having to worry about being castigated, or even worse yet, killed. Can you "choose" to follow whatever philosophy want, Googs?
You obviously have a great amount of hate for Muslims.
No more so than they have for us; what, with our decadence, (and, oh, heaven forbid) our sleeveless shirts, "uncovered" women, homosexuals, polytheistic idolatry, and MTV.

Look, Googs - your religion's despicable - it's completely RUINED your culture, stopped you from advancing, and caused a large faction it's "followers" to resort to barbarism in the name of your supposed "savior".

Now I don't know about you, but I think there's something fundamentally wrong with that picture.
And that's too bad because they are not going to go anywhere.
Keep pushing us, and hopefully, a few million of 'em will go up in a cloud of smoke.

Israel's hands are far from clean, they have done violent things in the past... but if you look at it... all the european jews had nowhere to go after the halocaust... so they were given the state of israel... which happens to be where their religion places them. I wish it were that easy.. but reality speaks a different tone.

Yes have to agree,most European nations did nothing to help the Jews after WW2,in fact during it Churchill didnt deem it a priority to bomb Aushwitz even tho he was asked to a number of times by Jewish/Poles.

I have no problem with the Jewish faith,for 2 reasons.
[1]I know nothing about it.
[2]They dont push their faith down anyones throats.

As for the state of Israel,it has the right to exist,but it needs to find a part of it to compensate the Muslim population who have been displaced by it.
ie The Palestinians.

What a bunch of bullshit; first off, Googs, "religion" doesn't dictate ANYTHING in my life, and moreover, it certainly doesn't do it by force. You may be accustomed to having prescribed "morality" shoved down your throat via "Islamic law", but I'm not. Secondly, no one in the West is blowing people away in the name Jesus (but by all means, feel free to cite some obscure news source that "proves" me wrong in that regard, 'cause I know you live for that kinda shit - it's your M.O.) Thirdly, and most importantly, (and I want you to pay attention to this part) at least I can voluntarily follow whatever philosophy I choose without having to worry about being castigated, or even worse yet, killed. Can you "choose" to follow whatever philosophy want, Googs?

First off, I didn't say religion was the only thing that dictated people's lives. Family upbringing and personal experiences also have dictate people's lives. Regardless if people in the West are doing it in the name of Jesus, there are still killers, rapists, and pedophiles in the West. And it is quite rampant.
"Dreadfulness" and "terrorism" isn't only associated with Islam. I can definitely choose whatever philosophy I want too depending on what country I live in. If the country goes by what is truly said in the Quran, they won't be killed for leaving Islam.


No more so than they have for us; what, with our decadence, (and, oh, heaven forbid) our sleeveless shirts, "uncovered" women, homosexuals, polytheistic idolatry, and MTV.

And all those things are raging in Muslim countries. Prae, you seriously don't know anything about Islam or about the region.

Look, Googs - your religion's despicable - it's completely RUINED your culture, stopped you from advancing, and caused a large faction it's "followers" to resort to barbarism in the name of your supposed "savior".

The people in control of our governments are despicable. Not Islam.

Now I don't know about you, but I think there's something fundamentally wrong with that picture.

This is probably the worse interpretation of Islam and the Middle East I have ever read.

Keep pushing us, and hopefully, a few million of 'em will go up in a cloud of smoke.

As long as you went up with them, I wouldn't mind. Not to mention, what you described above, certainly describes you as well.

Whatever, Googs - you're full of shit, and worse yet, you know it. Either that, or you really are brainwashed; take your pick. You can choose to indict the west for the "rampant" number of killers, rapists, and pedophiles on our soil, but there's one immutable, undeniable fact associated with the reality of your assessment: we're not offing ourselves in record number here.

Oh, and the sole reason your governments are despicable is BECAUSE of Islam, Googs. The two are inextricable linked, for the "infallible" Imams (who, naturally, are appointed by "god" himself) govern your countries with iron fist; IOW, everything from your customs, personal choices, and political beliefs to your schools and law enforcement. It's nothing short of religious jurisprudence, period. It breeds dictators and despots. Don't believe me...Look it up.

Outside of North Africa (another Muslim stronghold), it's the most fucked up place on Earth, and here's the real kicker - you people are actually vying for position. What more proof do you need?

Quit making excuses for your religion. It's appalling.

Whatever, Googs - you're full of shit, and worse yet, you know it. Either that, or you really are brainwashed; take your pick.

Nope! None of the above. You can try again though.

You can choose to indict the west for the "rampant" number of killers, rapists, and pedophiles on our soil, but there's one immutable, undeniable fact associated with the reality of your assessment: we're not offing ourselves in record number here.

Do I really believe the West is associated with the wretchedness of killers, pedophiles and rapists? No, my parents never would have moved here if that were the case.

Is Islam really associated with terrorism and wretchedness of Bin Laden? No. I wouldn't be Muslim if it were.

Oh, and the sole reason your governments are despicable is BECAUSE of Islam, Googs. The two are inextricable linked, for the "infallible" Imams (who, naturally, are appointed by "god" himself) govern your countries with iron fist; IOW, everything from your customs, personal choices, and political beliefs to your schools and law enforcement. It's nothing short of religious jurisprudence, period. It breeds dictators and despots. Don't believe me...Look it up.

First off, Imams are not chosen by God. I don't know were you got that from. Second, I live in the US. I don't get why you keep referring to them as "my countries." Anyhoo, there is no denying that there is corruption in many Muslim countries. But it's not because of Islam. Just because there is a correlation, it does not necessarily mean that it's causation.

Outside of North Africa (another Muslim stronghold), it's the most fucked up place on Earth, and here's the real kicker - you people are actually vying for position. What more proof do you need?

Africa as a whole is fucked up. And, you never gave proof, Prae. You made wild claims without any evidence.

Quit making excuses for your religion. It's appalling.

And your attempt at understanding Islam and the Middle East and other Islamic countries is pathetic.

I never agree with Prae on anything, but.....

I do think that Islam is SO restrictive that it makes its followers angry and frustrated. My opinion. We humans need some freedoms; and religion, state, upbrining, whatever cannot deny them. I think Islam DOES indeed deny them and that makes the people angry and frustrated.

Have you ever looked at the Ayotollah of Iran? Man, I'd love to see that guy crack a smile - ain't no love there!

I do think that Islam is SO restrictive that it makes its followers angry and frustrated. My opinion. We humans need some freedoms; and religion, state, upbrining, whatever cannot deny them. I think Islam DOES indeed deny them and that makes the people angry and frustrated.

Care to show how? Or provide any evidence for that?

Have you ever looked at the Ayotollah of Iran? Man, I'd love to see that guy crack a smile - ain't no love there!

The Ayatollah of Iran isn't Islam.

Care to show how? Or provide any evidence for that?



The Ayatollah of Iran isn't Islam.


I lived in dubai for 2 years. Even a "modern" version of Islam there restricts people. Let's see no alcohol, women are covered from head to toe (which is not even in the quoran), praying 5 times a day (even though they will lie to their fellow man 10 times a day) to start with! You don't think just being forced to pray 5 times a day makes you crazy?

As for the ayatollah of iran, who says he is not a muslim and pushing the muslim agenda?

Do I really believe the West is associated with the wretchedness of killers, pedophiles and rapists? No, my parents never would have moved here if that were the case.
Good. At least we're in agreement on that.
Is Islam really associated with terrorism and wretchedness of Bin Laden? No. I wouldn't be Muslim if it were.
"Associated with"? No. Well.....at least not "directly", per se. Breeds? Absolutely. Oh, and you're a Muslim because you don't have a choice in the matter, Googs. As an experiment, why don't you tell mommy and daddy you don't wanna be a Muslim anymore, and get back to me. I wanna know how that pans out.
First off, Imams are not chosen by God. I don't know were you got that from.
From Wikipedia, smartass:

"According to the Shi'a, an Imam is a leader who must be followed since he is appointed by Allah (God). Muhammad informed that the number of Imams after him would be twelve, as the compilers of Sahih Hadith have narrated it."

You know, come to think of it, these are the same "peaceful" leaders who pray for "victory". :rolleyes: Go figure.
Anyhoo, there is no denying that there is corruption in many Muslim countries. But it's not because of Islam.
Riiiiiigth. :rolleyes: It must be some other militant belief system that makes 'em all batshit crazy and IED happy.
Just because there is a correlation, it does not necessarily mean that it's causation.
No, but it's a pretty universal indicator. IOW, the "causation" here is logically inferred.
Africa as a whole is fucked up. And, you never gave proof, Prae. You made wild claims without any evidence.
"Wild claims"!? What - like the Imam thing? LOL.

The "evidence" is everywhere you look, ya balmy bastard! Outside of the UAE, pick a Muslim nation, Googs - THEY'RE ALL FUCKED SIX WAYS OF SUNDAY. Now, in your "expert" opinion, you tell me what the common denominator is, and if it's reasonable, I'll shut up (but you can rest assured - I'm not holding my breath).
And your attempt at understanding Islam and the Middle East and other Islamic countries is pathetic.
Oh, yeah - because you guys all about trying to "understand" other people (that is, if they're fully covered, pray to Allah, and stone homosexuals for "god"). :rolleyes: Give me a break.

You're so fuckin' wrong here, and the funny part is, you KNOW it.

Anybody else been missing InnocentSweety since she made that comment about stoning homosexuals in the streets?

Maybe freedom of speech in Dubai ain't what it's cracked up to be, ya think?

SMW

The Ayatollah of Iran isn't Islam.


As for the ayatollah of iran, who says he is not a muslim and pushing the muslim agenda?

googs was not suggesting that he is not a Muslim......I believe that what googs meant was that the Ayatollah of Iran does not comprise the entire religion of Islam.

Which is an excellent point, albeit one that is lost on most rightwingers in america, who have been indoctrinated to profess an unthinking knee-jerk hatred of any and all things Muslim.

Anybody else been missing InnocentSweety since she made that comment about stoning homosexuals in the streets?

Maybe freedom of speech in Dubai ain't what it's cracked up to be, ya think?

SMW
Well, I wouldn't use the word "missing", but at least to her credit, she knows when she's been beaten. Hopefully, she'll reevaluate her stance on Islam and reject that inhuman, barbaric, violent, regressive, close-minded religion. It's single-handedly the most divisive belief system on the planet, and if they wanna step outta the 14th century, then it's imperative they drop it like a bad habit, and wake up.

googs was not suggesting that he is not a Muslim......I believe that what googs meant was that the Ayatollah of Iran does not comprise the entire religion of Islam.
Well, no shit, Sherlock - of course, he doesn't - he's just ONE man, who like many, has taken a somewhat radical position anent their "belief system" in general.

I suppose if I were ragging on Christianity here, then you'd be all about it, right - you fuckin' raging hypocrite?

Did you have to work at being as offensive as you are, or did it come naturally to you?

I think that if all the Christians in this country were fundamentalists, we'd be at least as bad as the Muslim countries. The point is that they have a higher percentage of fundamentalists and radicals. Moderate Muslims are no better or worse than moderate Christians.

"Associated with"? No. Well.....at least not "directly", per se. Breeds? Absolutely. Oh, and you're a Muslim because you don't have a choice in the matter, Googs. As an experiment, why don't you tell mommy and daddy you don't wanna be a Muslim anymore, and get back to me. I wanna know how that pans out.

For your information, my mom became a practicing Muslim at the age of thirty. And my dad at the age of 40. They are both fifty years old. And I never really practiced Islam until recently. So I'd like to think that I just became a Muslim.

From Wikipedia, smartass:

"According to the Shi'a, an Imam is a leader who must be followed since he is appointed by Allah (God). Muhammad informed that the number of Imams after him would be twelve, as the compilers of Sahih Hadith have narrated it."

That's Shiite Muslims. I'm a Sunni Muslim so I don't believe that.....

You know, come to think of it, these are the same "peaceful" leaders who pray for "victory". :rolleyes: Go figure.

Yup!

Riiiiiigth. :rolleyes: It must be some other militant belief system that makes 'em all batshit crazy and IED happy.

I'd say its the uneducated get preyed on by power hungry and western hating individuals.

No, but it's a pretty universal indicator. IOW, the "causation" here is logically inferred.

Not really. Not every Muslim is a terrorist. Not every Muslim women wears the hijab.

"Wild claims"!? What - like the Imam thing? LOL.

Well considering you can't differentiate between the two. Most certainly.

The "evidence" is everywhere you look, ya balmy bastard! Outside of the UAE, pick a Muslim nation, Googs - THEY'RE ALL FUCKED SIX WAYS OF SUNDAY. Now, in your "expert" opinion, you tell me what the common denominator is, and if it's reasonable, I'll shut up (but you can rest assured - I'm not holding my breath).

I've pointed it out above. People preying on the uneducated and poor. They use Islam to justify what they are doing.

Oh, yeah - because you guys all about trying to "understand" other people (that is, if they're fully covered, pray to Allah, and stone homosexuals for "god"). :rolleyes: Give me a break.

You're so fuckin' wrong here, and the funny part is, you KNOW it.

Nope. It goes both ways.

I suppose if I were ragging on Christianity here, then you'd be all about it, right - you fuckin' raging hypocrite?

Yes, I would. But there is zero hypocrisy on my part, you raging cretin.

"Rag on" Islam all you like --based on any effect it has on your or my day to day existence-- and I will gladly join you. I dislike both superstitions, Islam and Christianity, equally.

I wonder what home life with freethinker is like? i bet its nice and warm and cozy and full of good vibes. not!

I wonder what home life with freethinker is like?

It is nice and cozy and full of laughter and good food and good smells and good vibes.

But then, I do not come into contact with any Rightwingers in my home.

So I'd like to think that I just became a Muslim.
Wow - they're allowing you guys to think nowadays, eh? Good for them.

Having said that, in most interpretations of Islamic religious law, conversion by Muslims to other religions is strictly forbidden. From what I've read thus far, it's called apostasy, and the best part is, Muslim theology equates apostasy to treason, and the penalty for apostasy is death.

Now that you're officially a Muslim, it looks like you're hooked for life, buddy.

And I thought the Catholics developed a good scheme when they started indirectly forcing people to "keep the faith"! The Muslims took one look at that plan and said, "guilt"!?!?! Pfft – fuck that, we'll just threaten to kill 'em if they ever leave.

Good luck, Googs - Islam sounds like fun!!! :)
That's Shiite Muslims. I'm a Sunni Muslim so I don't believe that.....
Who cares? - my point still stands. Your distinction here isn't even worth the bandwidth it took up. I was talking about Muslims in general, and as such, the Shiites DO believe that, but either way - it doesn't matter because it's ancillary to the point I was making in the first place.
Not really. Not every Muslim is a terrorist.
I never said they were.
Not every Muslim women wears the hijab.
And not every Muslim woman is beaten. What's your point?

That said, how many women are allowed to work for a Muslim government?
Well considering you can't differentiate between the two. Most certainly.
How the fuck was I supposed to know whether you were a Sunni or a Shiite? According to you, the Imams weren't chosen by god. I offered you some evidence to the contrary, and your retort is, uh, well, you see, um, I'm a Sunni Muslim, not a Shiite Muslim, sooooooo - I don't believe that (like, in some way, that invalidated my comment. :rolleyes: ).

Look, pal - I don't know much about your religion (or the various sects therein, and given the obvious - neither do you), but to be completely honest here, reading about your Sharia for roughly one hour was enough to make me wanna puke my guts out (and that's without getting needlessly enmeshed in the minutia of Sunni vs. Shiite, etc.).
They use Islam to justify what they are doing.
Correct. 100% of ALL Middle Eastern terrorists use it to justify what they're doing. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say 75% of ALL Muslims use it to justify what the terrorists did (although, they'd probably never admit it, but whatever). I can almost guarantee their circuitous (and not to mention, disingenuous) line of thinking would surface again (i.e., the same backhanded commiseration we've come to expect from your average "peaceful" Muslim, and it goes a little something like this, "I'm sorry 9/11 happened, and just so we're clear here, I'd NEVER do anything like that personally, but you guys deserved it....")
Nope. It goes both ways.
Who the fuck are we killing for our religious beliefs, Googs? You guys STONE people, cut off their limbs, and whip them for violating the "law" because your legal system is based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It's the absolute antithesis of democracy, freedom, rights, and justice, and moreover, it's inextricably linked to every aspect of your life BY FORCE.

What, exactly, is it you want me to "understand" here??? That your culture isn't fucked up? That Muslims are peaceful? That your religion doesn't breed hatred, intolerance, ignorance, and keep you, as a society, mired in the dark ages technologically and spiritually? That polygamy, religious law, and covering your women is okay? That forcing people to live the way you want them to (under the threat of lashing an "offender" 100 times for pre-marital sex, or killing someone for converting to another faith) is okay? That killing homosexuals is okay when it's for "Allah"? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, Googs, but I'm not buying it.

There's nothing to understand, period. It's a horrible and divisive religion, end of conversation.

Responding to this proves you're nothing more than a hopeless little drone bent on making excuses for what it's done to your people, your economy, and your future. And THAT, right there, is the bottom line, and it's an undesputed FACT, whether like it or not.

Prae, those leaders could use absolutely any religion to control those helpless uneducated people. It just so happens that the people are Muslims. In fact, they could do it JUST as easily without any religion at all (read up on Communism lately?)...

It is nice and cozy and full of laughter and good food and good smells and good vibes.

But then, I do not come into contact with any Rightwingers in my home.

...or any wacked out religuous nuts - ANY religion. I tell you some Christians are no better than the muslims. This is a fucking clash of fundamentalism (that is actually a title of a book too).

You don't need religion to make a home warm and fuzzy. Come over to my house anytime in Florida.

Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know there are presently no theocratic Christian governments other than that of Vatican City. There are no countries where Christian law is the governing law.

There are quite a few countries where Muslim law is the law of the land. It is those countries that afford the least amount of personal freedom to people. It is those countries that condemn homosexuals to death, stone girls who have been raped, cut off the right hands of criminals, decree that women must be veiled, cannot leave the house without a male relative and cannot drive cars.

There is no equating Christianity and Islam when it comes to the oppression of people.

Wow - they're allowing you guys to think nowadays, eh? Good for them.

That was stupid.

Having said that, in most interpretations of Islamic religious law, conversion by Muslims to other religions is strictly forbidden. From what I've read thus far, it's called apostasy, and the best part is, Muslim theology equates apostasy to treason, and the penalty for apostasy is death.

Now that you're officially a Muslim, it looks like you're hooked for life, buddy



And I thought the Catholics developed a good scheme when they started indirectly forcing people to "keep the faith"! The Muslims took one look at that plan and said, "guilt"!?!?! Pfft – fuck that, we'll just threaten to kill 'em if they ever leave.

This notion is completely false. Not everyone who leaves Islam is killed or sentenced to death. To kill someone who simply leaves Islam is against the teaching of the Quran. The only time a person is killed when they leave Islam is if they incite hatred and violence against the Muslim community in which they lived. It says in the Quran:

[Say, ‘Now the truth has come from your Lord: Let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so’] (Al-Kahf 17: 29).

Good luck, Googs - Islam sounds like fun!!! :)

Thank you, I love it! :thumbs:

Who cares? - my point still stands. Your distinction here isn't even worth the bandwidth it took up. I was talking about Muslims in general, and as such, the Shiites DO believe that, but either way - it doesn't matter because it's ancillary to the point I was making in the first place.

Sunnis makes up 90% of the Muslim population. Your argument disregarded 90% of the population you were suppose to be talking about.

I never said they were.

And not every Muslim woman is beaten. What's your point?

That said, how many women are allowed to work for a Muslim government?

I don't know. I'm not keeping count. And not to mention, many women get beaten in America all the time.

How the fuck was I supposed to know whether you were a Sunni or a Shiite? According to you, the Imams weren't chosen by god. I offered you some evidence to the contrary, and your retort is, uh, well, you see, um, I'm a Sunni Muslim, not a Shiite Muslim, sooooooo - I don't believe that (like, in some way, that invalidated my comment. :rolleyes: ).

Palestinians are mostly Sunni Muslims. And I've mentioned it on the boards before. And it did invalidate that comment because 90% of Muslims don't believe that.

Look, pal - I don't know much about your religion (or the various sects therein, and given the obvious - neither do you), but to be completely honest here, reading about your Sharia for roughly one hour was enough to make me wanna puke my guts out (and that's without getting needlessly enmeshed in the minutia of Sunni vs. Shiite, etc.).

I agree that Sharia law practiced in “Muslim Countries” is unislamic and wrong.


Correct. 100% of ALL Middle Eastern terrorists use it to justify what they're doing. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say 75% of ALL Muslims use it to justify what the terrorists did (although, they'd probably never admit it, but whatever). I can almost guarantee their circuitous (and not to mention, disingenuous) line of thinking would surface again (i.e., the same backhanded commiseration we've come to expect from your average "peaceful" Muslim, and it goes a little something like this, "I'm sorry 9/11 happened, and just so we're clear here, I'd NEVER do anything like that personally, but you guys deserved it....")

Do you always make up your statistics? I thought you don’t know much about the religion. Where did you get those statistics from?

Who the fuck are we killing for our religious beliefs, Googs? You guys STONE people, cut off their limbs, and whip them for violating the "law" because your legal system is based on Muslim principles of jurisprudence. It's the absolute antithesis of democracy, freedom, rights, and justice, and moreover, it's inextricably linked to every aspect of your life BY FORCE.

Who are you killing for your political beliefs? Innocent Iraqi civilians comes to mind.

What, exactly, is it you want me to "understand" here??? That your culture isn't fucked up? That Muslims are peaceful? That your religion doesn't breed hatred, intolerance, ignorance, and keep you, as a society, mired in the dark ages technologically and spiritually? That polygamy, religious law, and covering your women is okay? That forcing people to live the way you want them to (under the threat of lashing an "offender" 100 times for pre-marital sex, or killing someone for converting to another faith) is okay? That killing homosexuals is okay when it's for "Allah"? :rolleyes:
So it’s okay to steal, rape, murder, etc. people and not get punished for it? Polygamy is only used in the extreme situations and if a man wants to marry another woman, he needs his wife’s approval and if she doesn’t approve of it she can leave the marriage. Who is most likely to get raped walking down a street: a woman dressed in short shorts and a low cut shirt, or a woman covering her body?


I'm sorry, Googs, but I'm not buying it.

Don't give two shits if you do.

There's nothing to understand, period. It's a horrible and divisive religion, end of conversation.

And the politics of America can be described as horrible and divisive.

Responding to this proves you're nothing more than a hopeless little drone bent on making excuses for what it's done to your people, your economy, and your future. And THAT, right there, is the bottom line, and it's an undesputed FACT, whether like it or not.

It's fact because you say it is. Niiice! I'll start coming to you when I need to facts or statistics. And you would love for me not to reply to this post.....too bad.

Not everyone who leaves Islam is killed or sentenced to death.

That's really comforting, Googs, not everyone who leaves Islam is killed or sentenced to death. Only some of them are. Thanks for clearing that up.

The only time a person is killed when they leave Islam is if they incite hatred and violence against the Muslim community in which they lived. It says in the Quran:

You and I both know that despite what it might say in the Quran those who try to stop being Muslims are all too often killed. Do you remember Abdul Rahman? He was sentenced to death by the Afghani Suprem Court for the crime of converting to Christianity. The court backtracked and declared him crazy and not subject to the death penalty after a world wide outcry.

Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt has said that apostacy should not be punished unless the apostate should not be punished, including being killed unless he went public with his apostacy. In other words you can leave Islam unless people find out about it. If it becomes public knowledge that you left you can be killed.

That's really comforting, Googs, not everyone who leaves Islam is killed or sentenced to death. Only some of them are. Thanks for clearing that up.



You and I both know that despite what it might say in the Quran those who try to stop being Muslims are all too often killed. Do you remember Abdul Rahman? He was sentenced to death by the Afghani Suprem Court for the crime of converting to Christianity. The court backtracked and declared him crazy and not subject to the death penalty after a world wide outcry.



Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt has said that apostacy should not be punished unless the apostate should not be punished, including being killed unless he went public with his apostacy. In other words you can leave Islam unless people find out about it. If it becomes public knowledge that you left you can be killed.

Unfortunately that is the case sometimes. It shouldn't be, but it is. It says in the Quran, their is no compulsion in religion and that includes Islamic governments. Belief in Islam is only accepted when someone is honest about it. You can't force someone to believe.

Prae, those leaders could use absolutely any religion to control those helpless uneducated people. It just so happens that the people are Muslims. In fact, they could do it JUST as easily without any religion at all (read up on Communism lately?)...

Great post DF! :thumbs:

Thank you, googs. The despotic Middle Eastern leaders are using Islam to control and oppress their people, but that does not mean that Islam MUST result in such a situation. In fact, if you look at Muslim societies of the past, it was quite the opposite.

And I have another specific point to make.... Everyone is always bringing up the veiled women as "evidence" that Islam hates women or oppresses them. However, the Koran only says that people (men and women) should dress modestly. Things like the hijab and the burka were already around before Islam, and they were what those cultures considered modesty. Therefore, after the advent of Islam, the Muslims used their idea of modesty in women's clothing to adhere to the Koran's rule.

Also, most Muslim women I know actually like dressing modestly and wearing a head scarf. I have many Muslim friends and acquaintances at school, and they have been allowed by their parents to dress more "normally" if they want to. However, they almost universally say that it made them uncomfortable wearing tighter or more low cut clothing, and they didn't like men staring at their bodies. I think that wearing modest clothing is more of a feminist (and I use that in the most positive way possible) practice than dressing like a slut.

That was stupid.
You're one to talk.
This notion is completely false.
Noooo, it's demonstrably true. More on that to follow.
Not everyone who leaves Islam is killed or sentenced to death.
Thank you, Frogger, for pointing out the absurdity of his comment here.
To kill someone who simply leaves Islam is against the teaching of the Quran. The only time a person is killed when they leave Islam is if they incite hatred and violence against the Muslim community in which they lived.
Oh, well, that's a load off. I guess other communities are fair game, eh? Boy that sure makes it convenient for some loon to attack America when your religious leaders have declared us an enemy of Islam (while at the same time, "peacefully" praying for "victory" to the gullible, indoctrinated, Jihad-crazy, bomb-happy masses, no less). :rolleyes:
Thank you, I love it! :thumbs:
I would expect nothing less, you mindless drone.
Sunnis makes up 90% of the Muslim population. Your argument disregarded 90% of the population you were suppose to be talking about.
Actually, because you're so fond of statistics, perhaps you should be more careful with your percentages. Sunnis make up 85% of the population. Nevertheless, your point is taken - Sunnis represent the vast majority.
I don't know. I'm not keeping count.
Wow - how convenient. Given your penchant for statistics, I would've thought you counted everything.
And not to mention, many women get beaten in America all the time.
On a per capita basis, I'd venture to say the ratio is an easy 1:4; responsibility lying with each American male offender to every one of the fascist, misogynist, male practitioners of your religion.

The funny thing is, if you touch a woman for any reason in the states, then US authorities will arrest and prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law. In your country, if you hit a woman, then you better have a "good" reason. You know, like because she wore a short burka, or had pre-marital sex, I suppose.
Palestinians are mostly Sunni Muslims. And I've mentioned it on the boards before.
Well, stop the fucking presses - "you've mentioned it before"...which means, OF COURSE, I should've already known. Color me truly sorry in that regard. :rolleyes:
And it did invalidate that comment because 90% of Muslims don't believe that.
It invalidated NOTHING. You corrected me on something that, in the grand scheme of things, didn't even matter, and then you INTENTIONALLY missed my ENTIRE point because you decided to fixate on the "all Imams are appointed by god" comment (which, and if you haven't already guessed by now, didn't alter my message one iota). Sorry to break it to ya, fucknut, but you need to find a better reason to defend wholesale human rights abuses.

Stop pinning your supposed debate "victories" on a single comment. It serves to do nothing more than make you look dumb, and to be honest, it bores the shit outta me.
I agree that Sharia law practiced in “Muslim Countries” is unislamic and wrong.
Oh, so that must be why pretty much everyone follows it. :rolleyes:
Do you always make up your statistics?
I preceded my line of thinking by saying, "If I had to hazard a guess" (in case you missed it :rolleyes: ), and although my figure can't be proven, you fuckin'-A know that it wasn't far off the mark. In short, you're right - it's probably not 75%. In actuality, the figure may be closer to 71.3 or 69.4, or perhaps it's only 62.7%, but either way, my point still stands because (like it or lump it) it's the majority.
Who are you killing for your political beliefs? Innocent Iraqi civilians comes to mind.
Fuck you, Googs. My government has never intentionally "targeted" ONE innocent civilian.

You know, I'm not even gonna dignify your bullshit comment here with a response. :upyours:
So it’s okay to steal, rape, murder, etc. people and not get punished for it?
Oh, 'cause clearly, that's what I was advocating. :rolleyes: What I was saying (in case you didn't understand) was that the punishment should fit the crime (or, in most cases of Muslim jurisprudence, lack thereof).
Polygamy is only used in the extreme situations and if a man wants to marry another woman, he needs his wife’s approval and if she doesn’t approve of it she can leave the marriage.
Wow, so I take it, either way - HE wins, right!? How chivalrous of him, and not to mention, magnanimous of your fucked up customs in general. What's behind door #2 for our recently divorced (i.e., forcibly kicked out) female? An all-expense-paid vacation to exotic Ft. Shame? Hey - does she get to keep what's left of her dowry, or does she forfeit that, too?
Who is most likely to get raped walking down a street: a woman dressed in short shorts and a low cut shirt, or a woman covering her body?
I'd say any woman. That's what rapists do; they rape women. Less clothing just makes it easier.

Don't look now, Googs, but you, too, are justifying the reasons for forcing people to act in accordance to Sharia law. Just like Innocent Sweety before you, I'm sure this logic carries over to stoning a homosexual to death when you simply want 'em to "toe the line", right? I mean, hey - such human rights abuses are mighty effective in achieving your end, aren't they?
And the politics of America can be described as horrible and divisive.
Then leave, and take your fucked up family with you. America doesn't want or need people with your mentality on our soil. Your so-called "peaceful" religion is nothing more than a thinly veiled, fascist threat to world freedom and democracy. It's counter to everything we stand for as a nation. In short, that's why your country sucks, and ours is the best in the world. And the funny thing is, you wanna practice your fucked up belief system on our soil (with the kicker being that you're perfectly FREE (operative word here) to do so). Well, be my guest, Einstein, but don't you dare lecture me on values or morals.
It's fact because you say it is. Niiice! I'll start coming to you when I need to facts or statistics. And you would love for me not to reply to this post.....too bad.
No, it's a fact that you treat homosexuals, "infidels", and women like shit, my snide little, apologist friend. It's also a fact that your religion breeds intolerance and governs your life with an iron fist. In addition to that, it's also a fact that your religion has kept you, as a society, in the dark ages technologically and financially. You want actual percentages - well, no one can give 'em (for that's a virtual impossibility), but once again, that's a mighty convenient reason for you (on an incredibly weak academic level) to defend Islam now, isn't it?

Go ahead and feel free to stick your head in the sand all you want. It's just too bad that sand is on a beach in California as opposed to a war-torn battlefield in Palestine.

Jesus never told anyone to kill someone

As Frogger so aptly put it:

Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know there are presently no theocratic Christian governments other than that of Vatican City. There are no countries where Christian law is the governing law.

There are quite a few countries where Muslim law is the law of the land. It is those countries that afford the least amount of personal freedom to people. It is those countries that condemn homosexuals to death, stone girls who have been raped, cut off the right hands of criminals, decree that women must be veiled, cannot leave the house without a male relative and cannot drive cars.

Jesus never told anyone to kill someone
So? That doesn't mean that Christianity hasn't been used by those in power as an excuse for killing people. Of course you agree that the fault behind that belongs to the greedy leaders who used Christianity for such a purpose, not to Christianity itself, right?

Prae, thank you for conveniently ignoring my last few posts... Here, I'll quote them for you:
I think that if all the Christians in this country were fundamentalists, we'd be at least as bad as the Muslim countries. The point is that they have a higher percentage of fundamentalists and radicals. Moderate Muslims are no better or worse than moderate Christians.
Prae, those leaders could use absolutely any religion to control those helpless uneducated people. It just so happens that the people are Muslims. In fact, they could do it JUST as easily without any religion at all (read up on Communism lately?)...
Thank you, googs. The despotic Middle Eastern leaders are using Islam to control and oppress their people, but that does not mean that Islam MUST result in such a situation. In fact, if you look at Muslim societies of the past, it was quite the opposite.

And I have another specific point to make.... Everyone is always bringing up the veiled women as "evidence" that Islam hates women or oppresses them. However, the Koran only says that people (men and women) should dress modestly. Things like the hijab and the burka were already around before Islam, and they were what those cultures considered modesty. Therefore, after the advent of Islam, the Muslims used their idea of modesty in women's clothing to adhere to the Koran's rule.

Also, most Muslim women I know actually like dressing modestly and wearing a head scarf. I have many Muslim friends and acquaintances at school, and they have been allowed by their parents to dress more "normally" if they want to. However, they almost universally say that it made them uncomfortable wearing tighter or more low cut clothing, and they didn't like men staring at their bodies. I think that wearing modest clothing is more of a feminist (and I use that in the most positive way possible) practice than dressing like a slut.

So? That doesn't mean that Christianity hasn't been used by those in power as an excuse for killing people. Of course you agree that the fault behind that belongs to the greedy leaders who used Christianity for such a purpose, not to Christianity itself, right?

I agree, people have used the name of Christ to gain power and abuse others. I am just talking about the black and white differences between Jesus and Muhammad. If I ahd a choince of living in a land where either one of thier teachings was followed to the letter I would pick the christians, as it would be a far more peaceful place.

So? That doesn't mean that Christianity hasn't been used by those in power as an excuse for killing people.
Sure it has. Roughly (outside of an isolated case in Ireland) 500 years ago. People were also shitting in buckets and had no running water or electricity. What's your point?

Did I respond quickly enough this time? :rolleyes:

I agree, people have used the name of Christ to gain power and abuse others. I am just talking about the black and white differences between Jesus and Muhammad. If I ahd a choince of living in a land where either one of thier teachings was followed to the letter I would pick the christians, as it would be a far more peaceful place.
Yes, now it would. Not so much 1000 years ago. The thing is, the people in a lot of Muslim areas are like the people of Western Europe in the year 1000 - they are very poor, largely uneducated, and extremely religious. All this makes them very easy for unscrupulous people to control and oppress. It is NOT the fault of the religion itself. What Mohammed said and what Jesus said are very different, of course... Look at the times they lived in. Jesus' time was much more peaceful, less violent, less dangerous than Mohammed's time. It is not surprising therefore that the Koran is perhaps a little more violent than Jesus' teachings.

I would rather live in a Christian country too. Christianity is older than Islam and has therefore become more flexible, thanks to revolutions within the religion (e.g. the Protestant Reformation). When Christianity had been around for 1300 years, it was much like Islam is now - inflexible, intolerant, and quite violent. All religions go through cycles and become different over time.

Sure it has. Roughly (outside of an isolated case in Ireland) 500 years ago. People were also shitting in buckets and had no running water or electricity. What's your point?

Did I respond quickly enough this time? :rolleyes:
Talking bout us again,what happened 500 years ago then?

Prae, thank you for conveniently ignoring my last few posts... Here, I'll quote them for you:
In light of this, maybe you should reread what Frogger said anent your "any leader can use absolutely any religion to control helpless uneducated people" comment.

Here it is because apparently we don't know how to up-thread around here:

Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know there are presently no theocratic Christian governments other than that of Vatican City. There are no countries where Christian law is the governing law.

Sure it has. Roughly (outside of an isolated case in Ireland) 500 years ago. People were also shitting in buckets and had no running water or electricity. What's your point?

Did I respond quickly enough this time? :rolleyes:
Good timing, I just addressed this. Islam has not had the sort of internal reformations that Christianity has - these help to make a religion more tolerant and flexible.

Ah, and another reason... Islam is a much more literal religion. Many Christians today are more moderate and pick and choose which parts of the Bible should be taken literally and which should be taken figuratively. And this makes sense, since Jesus often spoke in parables and allegories, and we have to look a little closer for the true interpretation sometimes. Also, the Bible was not written by Jesus, parts of it have been lost, changed, translated, and rewritten over the years. The Koran, on the other hand, is thought of as the literal word of God, Mohammed being simply the vessel through which God spoke. Therefore, they cannot change anything about the Koran or choose to discard anything as a mistake in translation or a mistake in the writing of it. This contributes very much to the rigidity of Islam.

In light of this, maybe you should reread what Frogger said anent your "any leader can use absolutely any religion to control helpless uneducated people" comment.
I read it, and I believe I have addressed several reasons for that in my last two posts.

Talking bout us again,what happened 500 years ago then?
The crusades, and actually, it ended roughly 700 years ago.

Good timing, I just addressed this. Islam has not had the sort of internal reformations that Christianity has - these help to make a religion more tolerant and flexible.

Ah, and another reason... Islam is a much more literal religion. Many Christians today are more moderate and pick and choose which parts of the Bible should be taken literally and which should be taken figuratively. And this makes sense, since Jesus often spoke in parables and allegories, and we have to look a little closer for the true interpretation sometimes. Also, the Bible was not written by Jesus, parts of it have been lost, changed, translated, and rewritten over the years. The Koran, on the other hand, is thought of as the literal word of God, Mohammed being simply the vessel through which God spoke. Therefore, they cannot change anything about the Koran or choose to discard anything as a mistake in translation or a mistake in the writing of it. This contributes very much to the rigidity of Islam.
Now there's a well-reasoned distinction (no sarcasm intended). That was nicely put, and most likely, you're absolutely correct.

Islam has actually gone backwards, not forward.

In a big way, I think you're right, Trav.

The crusades, and actually, it ended roughly 700 years ago.
After the Crusades there was the Spanish Inquisition and the later part of the Reconquista, the absolute slaughtering of "heathen" Native Americans in the Caribbean, Catholic on Protestant oppression and Protestant on Catholic oppression during and after the Reformation and Counter Reformation, the centuries-long enslaving of Africans justified by the fact that they were not Christians (although after about 1750 or so they made the gradual switch to race-based slavery so slaves who converted couldn't be freed)...

The crusades, and actually, it ended roughly 700 years ago.I aint following ya,sorry.

Islam has actually gone backwards, not forward.
Indeed. I believe Christianity did the same thing, as it was much less tolerant and violent during the Middle Ages than it was in the early years. And yet now it has gone forward. See what I mean about a cycle?

I find it extremely interesting that within 80 years of Christianity's legalization (by Constantine, with the Edict of Milan), all other religions in the Roman Empire were illegal. I suppose they forgot what it was like to be oppressed.

I aint following ya,sorry.
He was saying that there had been no Christianity-based violence since the Crusades except in Ireland.

He was saying that there had been no Christianity-based violence since the Crusades except in Ireland.
Hmm,history is your thing,I forgot.

Hmm,history is your thing,I forgot.
Well he was wrong, but I was just explaining what he was saying. :p

You have the poster police hat on today I see.

I always do, paul. :D

Well he was wrong, but I was just explaining what he was saying. :p
Technically, you're correct, I was. Rationally, you're enmeshed in the milieu of academia, which obviously, allows you to make points that don't really need to be made (especially given the context of my initial statement). My point was as infallible as it is simple - it's been a long fucking time since we pulled shit in the name of "god". Pattern-like, or not, it's 2000-fucking-7. Technology, education, and general understanding has far surpassed religious dogma.

What we (the Europeans) did was understandable given the time period in which it occurred. We were also conquering foreign lands and building nations.

These people (and their beliefs) are beneath us, and they should be.

You're pretty much right, Prae. I'm just saying that Islam has not always been in such a bad state and it won't always be where it is now. We shouldn't be wiping the Muslim world off the face of the Earth because they are now making mistakes that Christians have also made in the past. It's cyclical.