i wish there were no more religions over the world...each mass-religion grew up centuries ago among ignorant ppl who could really believe in something invisible and immaterial...because of the religions, hundreds of wars were (and are) allowed..the catholic church is absolutely corrupted in my opinion, so are many "imam" in my opinion....if someone wanna believe in something, he should believe in himself

agreed! all religions are a sham! They all come and go. The current ones will also go one day - hopefully soon. Read my Jesus Myth thread. Watch out for the people who want to keep ignoring the facts.

i wish there were no more religions over the world...each mass-religion grew up centuries ago among ignorant ppl who could really believe in something invisible and immaterial...because of the religions, hundreds of wars were (and are) allowed..the catholic church is absolutely corrupted in my opinion, so are many "imam" in my opinion....if someone wanna believe in something, he should believe in himself
I think I'm in love...

i wish there were no more religions over the world...each mass-religion grew up centuries ago among ignorant ppl who could really believe in something invisible and immaterial...because of the religions, hundreds of wars were (and are) allowed..the catholic church is absolutely corrupted in my opinion, so are many "imam" in my opinion....if someone wanna believe in something, he should believe in himself

Nice.

Only been here a short time and already insulting 80% of the world's population. But the good news, Val... you've got Nappy on your side!

Bless your heart.

:hahanot:
SMW

Here is a great site for you to look at. www.ffrf.org (http://www.ffrf.org)

Nice.

Only been here a short time and already insulting 80% of the world's population. But the good news, Val... you've got Nappy on your side!

Bless your heart.

:hahanot:
SMW
She's not insulting anyone, it's a matter of opinion...

I think I'm in love...
Cue the "I'm moving to Italy" thread!

She's not insulting anyone, it's a matter of opinion...

I beg to differ. A matter of opinion is what someone gives when someone else ASKS. An insult is what someone gives when they don't care who they alienate with their unsolicited 'opinion.'

Doesn't really matter... the gal from Italy landed in a whole nest of atheists around here, so she oughta feel right at home.

LOL @ the "I'm Moving to Italy" comment. Good one, Borg.

:)
SMW

She expressed an opinion, if you're offended that's your problem...
I'm sure that wasn't her intention.

She expressed an opinion, if you're offended that's your problem...
I'm sure that wasn't her intention.

I'm glad you feel comfortable speaking for her. It's MY opinion she started this thread for the sole purpose of insulting those of us who BELIEVE.

If her intentions were something other than that, I'm sure she can speak for herself.

i've never insulted anyone in my whole life and of course i'm sorry if someone was offended by my thread....

by the way so many people around the world still believe in some religions and its so strange in my opinion...for example if i'd say: hey people, my father is GOD and i'm his daugher i think everyone would think i'm not well in my head but something like 2000 years ago some people trusted that famous guy....i mean science, nowadays, can explain lots of things that were a great mistery in the past if u all know what i mean...

and what are the religions at the moment? a business in my opinion....i live in italy and the catholic church is corrupted, money seems to be their real God...

how many wars there have been in the world history because of the religions? why should i have someone just because he believe in another god with another name?

It's true that religions have caused a lot of problems in the past. However, I most of what we think of as "religious wars" have been triggered by something else entirely - the religion was just the means for the rulers to convince the little people that the war was justified.

(Before you read: none of this is fact-checked, so forgive me if I'm wrong since I'm just going by memory here.)
For example, the Crusades, one of the biggest examples of a war that we'd think of as primarily religious, was more political. The Catholic Church, by far the biggest political power in Western Europe, was threatened by the power of the Byzantine Emperors. They wanted to be THE power in ALL of Europe. It wasn't about the fact that the people over there practiced a different religion, considering that the Byzantine Empire was largely Christian beginning with Justinian in the 500s. Perhaps it was the fact that the Empire TOLERATED the Muslims, and Christianity wasn't their established state religion. Anyways, the point was for the Church to increase its power, and that did happen: the Crusades brought in untold wealth, but more importantly they fostered a huge growth of support in Western Europe for the Church, and an outpouring of religious fervor.

So, basically, if religion wasn't around the powerful would just find another excuse for their wars.

And I have another point.... Everything has pros and cons. Even if religion is responsible for things that would not have been done using another excuse, religion has done so many good things too. For example, the knowledge and literature of classical times would never have survived in Western Europe until the Renaissance if Christian monks hadn't believed in being educated and well-read and made copies of all the old documents. They would still have been preserved by the Byzantines in the East, of course, but the language of Latin would probably have been lost, since their educated people would have translated everything into Greek.

i wish there were no more religions over the world...each mass-religion grew up centuries ago among ignorant ppl who could really believe in something invisible and immaterial...because of the religions, hundreds of wars were (and are) allowed..the catholic church is absolutely corrupted in my opinion, so are many "imam" in my opinion....if someone wanna believe in something, he should believe in himself
you're right, we'd so much better if nationalism and racism bonded our identities since you're stuck with those since birth.:rolleyes:

....i mean science, nowadays, can explain lots of things that were a great mistery in the past if u all know what i mean...
Science doesn't answer metaphysical questions. That's where religion and philosophy come in.

Good write up on the Crusades, DF.

It's been a while since I read up on that topic--isn't another reason that the "Saracins" had taken over Jerusalem and were not allowing Christians access to this area?

Richard I Lionheart, on his own Crusade. worked out a treaty with Saladin the Magnificent thus allowing Christian access, if I recall correctly. The 2 warriors had great respect for one another; it's unfortunate that Richard was backstabbed by his Christian co-horts, namely the king of France, Philip Le Bel, on his way home to England.

PS. I agree with Valentina that the Catholic church as an entity is corrupt. This doesn't mean that people of the Catholic faith are corrupt, nor those of other faiths.......as single entities.

PS. I agree with Valentina that the Catholic church as an entity is corrupt. This doesn't mean that people of the Catholic faith are corrupt, nor those of other faiths.......as single entities.
Very, very true.

It's true that religions have caused a lot of problems in the past. However, I most of what we think of as "religious wars" have been triggered by something else entirely - the religion was just the means for the rulers to convince the little people that the war was justified.

(Before you read: none of this is fact-checked, so forgive me if I'm wrong since I'm just going by memory here.)
For example, the Crusades, one of the biggest examples of a war that we'd think of as primarily religious, was more political. The Catholic Church, by far the biggest political power in Western Europe, was threatened by the power of the Byzantine Emperors. They wanted to be THE power in ALL of Europe. It wasn't about the fact that the people over there practiced a different religion, considering that the Byzantine Empire was largely Christian beginning with Justinian in the 500s. Perhaps it was the fact that the Empire TOLERATED the Muslims, and Christianity wasn't their established state religion. Anyways, the point was for the Church to increase its power, and that did happen: the Crusades brought in untold wealth, but more importantly they fostered a huge growth of support in Western Europe for the Church, and an outpouring of religious fervor.

So, basically, if religion wasn't around the powerful would just find another excuse for their wars.

And I have another point.... Everything has pros and cons. Even if religion is responsible for things that would not have been done using another excuse, religion has done so many good things too. For example, the knowledge and literature of classical times would never have survived in Western Europe until the Renaissance if Christian monks hadn't believed in being educated and well-read and made copies of all the old documents. They would still have been preserved by the Byzantines in the East, of course, but the language of Latin would probably have been lost, since their educated people would have translated everything into Greek.


uhm my english isn't good enough to talk about that, by the way that's a good point: what better than religion to convince the little people to do something bad? oh, well of course each religion has got some pros, but the most important questions are: what is a religion? where,why and when was it born? can it really explain some mysterious things? i've already asked to myself those questions, but i won't say my point of view because too much people could get offended :D

i've already asked to myself those questions, but i won't say my point of view because too much people could get offended :DHa ha ha!!

Don't let that old witch scare you off, Valentina.

Welcome to allForums. :)

you will fit right in with the "religion is dumb" crowd.

You religious people are alienating her right from the start. I don't agree with her opinions on religion either, but I respect the fact that it's her opinion. She didn't mean to offend anyone.

You religious people are alienating her right from the start. I don't agree with her opinions on religion either, but I respect the fact that it's her opinion. She didn't mean to offend anyone.


How to Win Friends and Influence People... start off by calling them IGNORANT. You'll be a great hit with too much people -- no matter what country you call home.

(and this is for you, Sedan... :upyours: )

Perhaps her shaky grip on the English language caused her post to seem more confrontational than she wished it to seem. And SMW, what do you think about atheists? Surely you've said worse things about them than that they're "ignorant"?

Perhaps her shaky grip on the English language caused her post to seem more confrontational than she wished it to seem. And SMW, what do you think about atheists? Surely you've said worse things about them than that they're "ignorant"?

No, don't think so... "ignorant" about covers it!

:lolhit:

Look, I don't care what the Italian lady thinks about religion. Just hit me wrong that she starts off bashing Christians. I used to think only birds of a feather flock together, but it appears atheists have more than beaks and wings in common with those creatures.

Sorry if I much offend her by saying, "Oh, brother. Just what we need... another Jesus-basher."

Maybe she talks friendlier in Italian. Anybody here speak Italian?

;)
SMW

You religious people are alienating her right from the start. I don't agree with her opinions on religion either, but I respect the fact that it's her opinion. She didn't mean to offend anyone.Sometimes Christians don't act very Christian. Oh, well.

Sometimes Christians don't act very Christian. Oh, well.

Quit trying to stir the pot, Shiloh. Can't you see DF's trying to play peacemaker here?

:slap:

Look, I don't care what the Italian lady thinks about religion. Just hit me wrong that she starts off bashing Christians.ROFL!

She started out by saying she wished there weren't any religions.

How does this, in what passes for your mind, become "bashing Christians"?

i've never insulted anyone in my whole life and of course i'm sorry if someone was offended by my thread....
So much for that trend. You can offend people just by stating an opinion, here. I've no doubt you just offended at least a half dozen people. *sigh*

Val.
Is there any work around your area for Tilers.
People who lay floors.
Thanks,just wondering.

Quit trying to stir the pot, Shiloh. Can't you see DF's trying to play peacemaker here?

:slap:
Peace is for pussies. We don't need no steeenkin' peace!

SMW is our resident old biddy, Valentina. Pay her no mind. :)

So much for that trend. You can offend people just by stating an opinion, here. I've no doubt you just offended at least a half dozen people. *sigh*

oh i'm so sorry if i've offended someone...

Val.
Is there any work around your area for Tilers.
People who lay floors.
Thanks,just wondering.
::high five::

oh i'm so sorry if i've offended someone...
I'm trying to say you shouldn't worry about it. People's gonna get offended whether you were trying to or not. You've seen how smartmouthwoman reacted. If Frogger were here, he'd say the same thing. If I was you, I'd just try to take it all in stride, and not let it bug ya. People get offended here simply because you have a different opinion than they do. Kinda silly if you ask me.

Val.
Is there any work around your area for Tilers.
People who lay floors.
Thanks,just wondering.

::high five::
Alright you guys... :rolleyes:

*turns to Val* So, umm, is there? *blushes*

oh i'm so sorry if i've offended someone...

You did not offend ANYONE. SMW just has a chip on her shoulder. You only said there should not be ANY religion.

Read SMW's "PRO AMERICAN DISCUSSION" and you'll see what kind of a person she is. She believes Iraq attacked us on 911. Yes, she is one of those. SO...don't evey worry about her.

Alright you guys... :rolleyes:

*turns to Val* So, umm, is there? *blushes*
What makes you think she'd even be interested in you, you presumptuous swine? ;)

I've been told I look like Brendan Frasier... :rolleyes:

Valentina, welcome to the forum. You speak excellent English. Don't worry about insulting people. Just be truthful about what you really think. The rest will sort itself out.

I've been told I look like Brendan Frasier... :rolleyes:

Yeah, yeah, but shorty was being kind.

You did not offend ANYONE. SMW just has a chip on her shoulder. You only said there should not be ANY religion.

Read SMW's "PRO AMERICAN DISCUSSION" and you'll see what kind of a person she is. She believes Iraq attacked us on 911. Yes, she is one of those. SO...don't evey worry about her.

lol a chip on her shoulder,how funny :)
howeve if more people were atheist around the world maybe 9/11 wouldn't have become what sadly it became if u know what i mean...
by the way i really didn't know someone could think iraq was related with al quaida,at least before 9.11

fairy tales!! all of 'em!

What makes you think she'd even be interested in you, you presumptuous swine? ;)
let the boy have his delusions:rolleyes:

ROFL!

She started out by saying she wished there weren't any religions.

How does this, in what passes for your mind, become "bashing Christians"?
you can't attack the church with out attacking it's membership.
the catholic church is absolutely corrupted in my opinion

Of course the church is corrupt. As Ren already said, saying that isn't the same as calling every individual Catholic corrupt.

Yeah, yeah, but shorty was being kind.
Not shorty, Foolsworth. :eek: Hence the :rolleyes:

you can't attack the church with out attacking it's membership.Interesting idea.

My mother-in-law is a devout Catholic who also believes the Church hierarchy is corrupt. Does this mean that she is attacking herself and all other Catholics when she expresses this belief?

You did not offend ANYONE. .


I'd say she did. She definitely offended me but it doesn't mean she should stop posting here.

However, I do agree with her in that many people who run the world's religions are corrupt. But it doesn't necessarily mean the followers of that religion of just as corrupt.

Did she say that? No. Quit talking out of your ass.

Did she say that? No. Quit talking out of your ass.

Wtf? Maybe I should be clearer. She offended me when she said there shouldn't be any religions however, I do agree that there is corruption in religion.

Not shorty, Foolsworth. :eek: Hence the :rolleyes:
ah...

Interesting idea.

My mother-in-law is a devout Catholic who also believes the Church hierarchy is corrupt. Does this mean that she is attacking herself and all other Catholics when she expresses this belief?
she didn't write that the leadership was corrupt in the 1st post, just the Church, and the Church is the sum of it's members.

When I refer to "the Church" I mean the people who are actually IN it, not the followers.

who fills the pews?

who fills the pews?
"The Church", capitalized, doesn't generally mean an actual physical church. :rolleyes:

Or are you joking?

"The Church", capitalized, doesn't generally mean an actual physical church. :rolleyes:

Or are you joking?
The Church is more than buildings, it's the clergy and lay-people that make up it's membership.

i've never insulted anyone in my whole life and of course i'm sorry if someone was offended by my thread....

by the way so many people around the world still believe in some religions and its so strange in my opinion...for example if i'd say: hey people, my father is GOD and i'm his daugher i think everyone would think i'm not well in my head but something like 2000 years ago some people trusted that famous guy....i mean science, nowadays, can explain lots of things that were a great mistery in the past if u all know what i mean...

and what are the religions at the moment? a business in my opinion....i live in italy and the catholic church is corrupted, money seems to be their real God...

how many wars there have been in the world history because of the religions? why should i have someone just because he believe in another god with another name?

Though I don't swear allegiance to any religion, yet (waiting for an epiphany), but most people, over 90% and perhaps even more of the worlds population have allegiance to some form of religion. The easiest way to explain this, in my opinion, they choose the religion of their fathers, I don't mean to be a chauvinist.

Wtf? Maybe I should be clearer. She offended me when she said there shouldn't be any religions however, I do agree that there is corruption in religion.
That's better, but better still to not be so goddamn offendable. Holy shit, nobody gets offended like religious folk.

she didn't write that the leadership was corrupt in the 1st post, just the Church, and the Church is the sum of it's members.So if I say the Catholic Church is corrupt that means I'm bashing Christians?

Sorry, I don't follow the logic there.

So if I say the Catholic Church is corrupt that means I'm bashing Christians?

Sorry, I don't follow the logic there.
are you saying Catholics aren't Christians?:rant:

That's better, but better still to not be so goddamn offendable. Holy shit, nobody gets offended like religious folk.

Lol, I'd like to maintain my right to be offended. What fun is freedom of speech when you can't offend anyone?

Seriously, I think the whole concept escapes me. The only people I ever see get righteously offended is pansy-ass politically correct liberals and ultra-religious folk. It's like a carte-blanche license to tell other people what they can and can't express. If someone tells me they got offended, I immediately look at them like I would a giant douche. And maybe want to send them a link to tubgirl telling them it's a picture of baby Jesus. Offended now, bitch?

thanks to the Renaissance the West could have improved several branches of human arts and the science revolution could start at that time...the mass-religions are against a free society, and where the religion is still too much important (as in some muslim states) the sociecy is quite closer to the one of the Middle-Ages...of course everyone can have a belief, but nobody should tell us how to think, how to vote or who or what is the Evil

You rang?

You rang?


loooooool, EVIL, why are you on the Earth if i may ask?

loooooool, EVIL, why are you on the Earth if i may ask?

Somebody's got to do the tempting ....:woohoo:

Homer è qui flirt con le ragazze italiane giovani belle.
:rolleyes:

Homer è qui flirt con le ragazze italiane giovani belle.
:rolleyes:

OH ma sei italiano? direi di si, hai scritto in maniera quasi perfetta :D comunque grazie per il "bella" :D

Grazie. Non parlo italiano, ma le mie prime lingue erano latine ed Aramaic. Così l'italiano non è quello grande di un salto….
:)

I mean, Thank you. I don’t speak Italian, but my first languages were Latin and Aramaic. So Italian is not that big of a leap….

Grazie. Non parlo italiano, ma le mie prime lingue erano latine ed Aramaic. Così l'italiano non è quello grande di un salto….
:)

I mean, Thank you. I don’t speak Italian, but my first languages were Latin and Aramaic. So Italian is not that big of a leap….

i c, italicus civis sum, valentinam vocant :D my latin isn't so good i'm quite better at reading it :D

My Latin was not so much spoken as 'recited'. Usually before the Fathers of the church. Myrrh, Frankincense, and corporal punishment. Such good times.
:hula:

My Latin was not so much spoken as 'recited'. Usually before the Fathers of the church. Myrrh, Frankincense, and corporal punishment. Such good times.
:hula:

i adore readin the poetries written by Catullo in the original language, i bet you've already heard of him before..his poetries are so sweet and romantic he's the best poet in the world history in my opinion :)

Carmen 24:

O you who are the youthful flower of the Juventius family,
not only of these, but however many either were
of after this will be born in later years,
I would prefer you to give wealth to that Midas
who has neither servant nor money-box,
than you allow yourself like this to be loved by that fellow.
"Who? Is he not good-looking?" you ask. He is.
But to that good-looking man belong neither servant nor money-box.
Throw it away and make light of this as much as you want,
but nevertheless that man has neither servant nor money-box.
:)
"Hoc tu quam lubet abice elevaque:
nec servum tamen ille habet neque arcam."

Carmen 24:

O you who are the youthful flower of the Juventius family,
not only of these, but however many either were
of after this will be born in later years,
I would prefer you to give wealth to that Midas
who has neither servant nor money-box,
than you allow yourself like this to be loved by that fellow.
"Who? Is he not good-looking?" you ask. He is.
But to that good-looking man belong neither servant nor money-box.
Throw it away and make light of this as much as you want,
but nevertheless that man has neither servant nor money-box.
:)
"Hoc tu quam lubet abice elevaque:
nec servum tamen ille habet neque arcam."


cool:D never heard it in english by the way it sounds so strange :D
how come can ya speak latin and aramaic? are ya into the hierarchy of the catholic church or what else? :D

No, not really.
By-product of my Catholic upbringing, from my distant youth.
I'm in a different place now.

And so off to work for me now.
Have a nice day!!
:smile2:

thanks to the Renaissance the West could have improved several branches of human arts and the science revolution could start at that time...the mass-religions are against a free society, and where the religion is still too much important (as in some muslim states) the sociecy is quite closer to the one of the Middle-Ages...of course everyone can have a belief, but nobody should tell us how to think, how to vote or who or what is the Evil
That's all true... Religion has traditionally made itself the enemy of most "revolutionary" scientific breakthroughs. Although art has typically been adopted quite enthusiastically by Christianity.

What's funny is that, when Islam was founded in the 7th century, they were probably the most progressive and modern society of the time. Today we think of Islam as a religion that perhaps doesn't respect women as much, but 1000 years ago Muslim women were much better off than their Christian or Jewish counterparts. Only in some of the most remote tribal societies of Northern Europe did women have more rights and freedoms. (Keep in mind that I'm only talking about Europe/the Near East here... My knowledge of Asia, Africa, and the Americas at the time is scanty, at best.)

are you saying Catholics aren't Christians?:rant:Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. :@@: :@@: :@@:

After I tell my mother-in-law that she is a Christian basher I can soften the blow by saying it's OK, Catholics aren't Christians. That will make perfect sense.

Idiot.

That's all true... Religion has traditionally made itself the enemy of most "revolutionary" scientific breakthroughs. Although art has typically been adopted quite enthusiastically by Christianity.


What's funny is that, when Islam was founded in the 7th century, they were probably the most progressive and modern society of the time. Today we think of Islam as a religion that perhaps doesn't respect women as much, but 1000 years ago Muslim women were much better off than their Christian or Jewish counterparts. Only in some of the most remote tribal societies of Northern Europe did women have more rights and freedoms. (Keep in mind that I'm only talking about Europe/the Near East here... My knowledge of Asia, Africa, and the Americas at the time is scanty, at best.)

i totally agree..at the beginning, the Islam world was really progressive..the islamic leaders dreamed to build up a great empire and they weren't so closed-minded about the religion: so they were quite permissive with the people invaded by themselves, that's a fact..but when the islamic area was cristallized, the dark-side of each religion grew up..

the people livin in that area wasn't as lucky as us europeans because they had never had something like our Renaissance that's why, at least in my opinion, most of them still live in the middle-ages

i totally agree..at the beginning, the Islam world was really progressive..the islamic leaders dreamed to build up a great empire and they weren't so closed-minded about the religion: so they were quite permissive with the people invaded by themselves, that's a fact..but when the islamic area was cristallized, the dark-side of each religion grew up..

the people livin in that area wasn't as lucky as us europeans because they had never had something like our Renaissance that's why, at least in my opinion, most of them still live in the middle-ages


true dat!

The Golden Rule - all the religion anyone needs.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/godsandmen/religion/poster1.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/godsandmen/religion/spirituality/23562fb4ec71dbcaf1312a55117c606cee2.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/godsandmen/religion/text/Universe.jpg

You religious people are alienating her right from the start. I don't agree with her opinions on religion either, but I respect the fact that it's her opinion. She didn't mean to offend anyone.


LOL, I don't know if you have ever seen how a person who comes in here to speak positively of religion is treated, but I assure you, this person is getting off light. Go find a thread where someone wants to just talk about religion, not debate if it is real, and you will see some alienation, or just downright assault and battery.

DF, good point about women. Also, Islam was probably the most progressive force in terms of science at the time too. Hell, even our basic numbering system is derived from it. In terms of religion in general, we can't forget writing. Back then, the main purpose to become literate was to read the Bible, and monks were the keepers of knowledge which would have otherwise been lost during the Dark Ages.

Just my 3 cents.

Religion does seem to be used as an "excuse" to wage many wars that, of course, have underlying causes behind them. Maybe it's cause it's the most important thing to a person of faith.

I don't, however, believe that without religion the world would be a better place. As DF pointed out, religions have contributed to organization and development; both of which are the foundations of the modern world.

To me, personally, I believe that having faith in something is better than not having faith at all. I think that faith really contributes towards having a better, organized society, and having a purpose in life.
Just a funny story: One of my athiest (spelling?) professors once told us that his Christian wife would pray for God to not throw him in hell.

Religion does seem to be used as an "excuse" to wage many wars that, of course, have underlying causes behind them. Maybe it's cause it's the most important thing to a person of faith.

I don't, however, believe that without religion the world would be a better place. As DF pointed out, religions have contributed to organization and development; both of which are the foundations of the modern world.

To me, personally, I believe that having faith in something is better than not having faith at all. I think that faith really contributes towards having a better, organized society, and having a purpose in life.
Just a funny story: One of my athiest (spelling?) professors once told us that his Christian wife would pray for God to not throw him in hell. Well how would you know if the world would be a better place? Do you think people who are non-religious are amoral? I think religion has held us back a lot in areas of science. Look at the stem-cell debate. We live in a secular nation but religion still has a grip on our politicians and everydy life regardless if you want it or not. How about having faith in mankind? Wouldn't that be better then praying to an imaginary guy in the sky? I for one think the world would be a better place without religion! www.ffrf.org (http://www.ffrf.org)

Well how would you know if the world would be a better place? Do you think people who are non-religious are amoral? I think religion has held us back a lot in areas of science. Look at the stem-cell debate. We live in a secular nation but religion still has a grip on our politicians and everydy life regardless if you want it or not. How about having faith in mankind? Wouldn't that be better then praying to an imaginary guy in the sky? I for one think the world would be a better place without religion! www.ffrf.org (http://www.ffrf.org)


i totally agree! religions are just wonderful tales about imaginary things...if someone wanna know something more about the nature or the universe he should read something written by Bernoulli, Galilei, or Newton for example

Well how would you know if the world would be a better place? Do you think people who are non-religious are amoral? I think religion has held us back a lot in areas of science. Look at the stem-cell debate. We live in a secular nation but religion still has a grip on our politicians and everydy life regardless if you want it or not. How about having faith in mankind? Wouldn't that be better then praying to an imaginary guy in the sky? I for one think the world would be a better place without religion! www.ffrf.org (http://www.ffrf.org)

I don't know if the world is a better place with religion, but I'd say it turned out pretty well. You can't guarantee the same were the world ruled only by science and not religion, you can't know what will happen.

I personally believe everything happens for a reason, and maybe building a world based on religious beliefs and values was a good thing since it brought us where we are today. You might disagree with the notion and I respect that, it's just what I think.

Your argument is mostly based on Christianity, since most of the debates regarding scientific matters were between the church and the scientists. Other religions would believe in many scientific theories and laws, so I wouldn't generalize there.

Having faith in mankind is completely fine, but why can't one have both faith in mankind and in what he or she believes to be the Creator of mankind? It shouldn't be either or, it could be both.

but why can't one have both faith in mankind and in what he or she believes to be the Creator of mankind?
One leads to altruism and acceptance, the other leads to bigotry and war.

Nappy, you're generalizing. Lots of religions have nothing to do with bigotry or war. For example, the Quakers are completely opposed to violence, they welcome all comers to their meetings, and they do so much for the poor and the sick.

Too bad those guys aren't the norm.

These recent posts make me wonder what the world would actually be like today if religions had never been invented.

I am trying to visualize, early and present man, with no restrictions other than those imposed by societies with only basic human emotions as a guide. No imaginative hopes/fears of assistance/punishment from god(s) involved.

I wonder if societies would have developed to the point we know them today or maybe something would have developed that is entirely different than we have known?

Did like-minded religious beliefs help people to hold together in social groups?

Well, sure. But when two tribes of differing beliefs met each other, can you guess what happened?

The first religions were of the, "God spoke directly to me and told me we should slaughter these heathens!" variety. Only much, much later, after humans had already learned how to live with each other in relative peace, did they become any different. Hell, the idea of morals (good and evil) wasn't even invented until Zoroastrianism. And even then, it was only in a primitive form, the full concept didn't emerge until Plato.

Well, sure. But when two tribes of differing beliefs met each other, can you guess what happened?

The first religions were of the, "God spoke directly to me and told me we should slaughter these heathens!" variety. Only much, much later, after humans had already learned how to live with each other in relative peace, did they become any different. Hell, the idea of morals (good and evil) wasn't even invented until Zoroastrianism. And even then, it was only in a primitive form, the full concept didn't emerge until Plato.

The tribes, mentioned above, could possibly have still fought over boundaries or some other form of greed, without religion coming into play.

It seems that even what we called "religious wars" were fought for many reasons, often a greed for expansion/wealth were underlying causes.

Maybe the world would not be so different today if religions had not been invented; it could be that the manifestation of greed would only be renamed in another cloak of convenience.

i ...because of the religions, hundreds of wars were (and are) allowed..

This is a commonly held belief. However, how many wars in recent history have been truly religious wars? The last wars, that can be attributed to religious fervour, probably occurred in the 17th Century.

The 18th Century wars, Britain/France American Revolution, were not religious.
The 19th Century, following the defeat of Bonaparte, was essentially a period of peace or the Pax Britannica.
Certainly World Wars I and II were not religious, the Cold War wasn't, the Korean War, neither was Vietnam.
The present troubles in the Middle East are not really religious troubles, they are boundary conflicts and are about ownership if the land. (As evidence of this, most differentiate between Jews and Israel.) Al-Quiada isn't about religion, bin Laden just hates the USA, and others.

Like DanF and Oldtimer mentioned, all wars fought in name of religion had underlying causes. So, without religion, I don't think the contributions that mankind knows and implements today would have been possible, as almost all religions have offered a way of organized lifestyle that should be followed. If it weren't for The Golden Rule and many other rules that encourage treating people in a good way, mankind, during the course of history, would have probably spread even more wars around the globe rather than looking for peaceful alternatives.
Religion is like a solid ethics system that should be followed - else much guilt will be felt. It keeps people in check.

I think you hit the nail on the head Sweety-Religion keeps people in check.

Like DanF and Oldtimer mentioned, all wars fought in name of religion had underlying causes. So, without religion, I don't think the contributions that mankind knows and implements today would have been possible, as almost all religions have offered a way of organized lifestyle that should be followed. If it weren't for The Golden Rule and many other rules that encourage treating people in a good way, mankind, during the course of history, would have probably spread even more wars around the globe rather than looking for peaceful alternatives.
Religion is like a solid ethics system that should be followed - else much guilt will be felt. It keeps people in check. The Golden Rule is about ethics not religion.

The tribes, mentioned above, could possibly have still fought over boundaries or some other form of greed,
That is exactly what they did. Religion wasn't typically the driving factor behind war in prehistory times. But it did make wars much, much nastier. Religion brought people so close together that people outside the religion almost seemed inhuman. Such was the power of religion to influence peoples' thinking. Population densities were very low, and tribes rarely encountered one another. So no one knew much about anyone else. That left a huge void for religion to fill with ugliness and nastiness. This was a nasty, brutishly short existence, absolutely ruled by tribal chiefs. Those chiefs used religion, not to promote well-being and goodwill, but to increase their power over their tribe.

The Golden Rule is about ethics not religion.

Yes afinertouch5, that's why I said religion is like a solid ethics system that keeps people in check :rolleyes:

Those chiefs used religion, not to promote well-being and goodwill, but to increase their power over their tribe.

It's like a two-edged sword. You choose which edge you want to use ;)

It's like a two-edged sword. You choose which edge you want to use ;)
How 'bout we put that sword deep into the ground and never dig it up again?