Thinking is part of reality

Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. Reflexivity is a concept that informs us that thinking is part of reality.

In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success. In human affairs there are shortcuts to success—one can lie, manipulate, spin, and use force to gain success. Thus in human affairs truth often takes a back seat.

In his book “Open Society” George Soros speaks of many things; one important concept is ‘reflexivity’. “I started thinking in terms of reflexivity nearly fifty years ago. It may be interesting to recall how I arrived at the idea. It was through the footnotes of Karl Popper’s “Open Society and its Enemies”…I started to apply the concept of reflexivity to the understanding of social affairs, and particularly of financial markets, in the early 1960s before evolutionary systems theory was born…”

The first chapter of this book, wherein he explains this concept, can be found at http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/soros.htm.

Thinking is part of reality
Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other.



It seems to me, that our particular culture actually allows for the thinking mind to create alternate, personal, realities. What could actually contemplate a particular reality other than a thinking mind?
I believe this will occur regardless of what is taught or untaught by an educational system concerning this matter.

It seems to me, that our particular culture actually allows for the thinking mind to create alternate, personal, realities. What could actually contemplate a particular reality other than a thinking mind?
I believe this will occur regardless of what is taught or untaught by an educational system concerning this matter.

:) I love you DanF :) And yes it is personal :)

tuck

Thinking is part of reality

Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. Reflexivity is a concept that informs us that thinking is part of reality.

In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success. In human affairs there are shortcuts to success—one can lie, manipulate, spin, and use force to gain success. Thus in human affairs truth often takes a back seat.

In his book “Open Society” George Soros speaks of many things; one important concept is ‘reflexivity’. “I started thinking in terms of reflexivity nearly fifty years ago. It may be interesting to recall how I arrived at the idea. It was through the footnotes of Karl Popper’s “Open Society and its Enemies”…I started to apply the concept of reflexivity to the understanding of social affairs, and particularly of financial markets, in the early 1960s before evolutionary systems theory was born…”

The first chapter of this book, wherein he explains this concept, can be found at http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/soros.htm.

Coberst :) what happens when two Intellectuals talk to each other?

Your complaint so far is that you have to deal with non "intellectuals". DanF (and he is very wake) and I are actually intellectuals. :) (we are trying to play.)

And so are a bunch of other people on this message board intellectuals. Bump heads with SMF :) She is pretty cool!

So the question comes up, "Do you just want to complain or do you want to discuss things with other intellectuals?" The one thing about being an intellectual, if serious about this, is that non intellectuals are not going to be able to carry on a conversation with you. A non intellectual and an intellectual are two completely different realities.

Visualize this :) An intellectual teaching "Kindergarden/preschool", the kids are into fingerpainting and you are teaching "calculus" :) and wondering way they are so stupid. OK?

Cobest, I feel like I am bothering you and that I should just back off so that you can feel happy that you are dealing with those that you consider idiots. Because of course you are not an idiot. Wecome to All Forums.net. "Minds at Play!" or maybe not :) what is your Coberst motivation? We can adapt and fit you in here somewhere. You are wecome here, you are you know! A clue? How would you like to fit?

tuck

It seems to me, that our particular culture actually allows for the thinking mind to create alternate, personal, realities. What could actually contemplate a particular reality other than a thinking mind?
I believe this will occur regardless of what is taught or untaught by an educational system concerning this matter.

Right, the mind is always thinking no matter what it has learned or has been taught. In fact we create the world of abstract ideas that are what we value and live and die for. Humans are meaning creating creatures, we create the values we live by.

Right, the mind is always thinking no matter what it has learned or has been taught. In fact we create the world of abstract ideas that are what we value and live and die for. Humans are meaning creating creatures, we create the values we live by.

Ah man :) I am in the middle of two people's conversation. In some messageboards this is considered "rude". In All Forums.net, convention :) I guess just has to keep up (Unless Nappy gets pissed :) He is Gold Medal).

When you ask, "Why do people retreat into their shell like turtles?", you are a player Coberst when is comes to studing the human mind. The problem is Coberst, is that you have a human mind also :)

The interesting thing about All Forums.net is that if you and I and others can survive the experience, we will walk off ,"Not of this World'. Yes we my be considered totally insane :) but at the sametime, maybe not :) ! Either way, normal folks don't have a chance :) ! Only on All Forums.net, "Minds at play :) ".

Anyway Coberst I am glad that you are hanging out here and I hope you stay. You carry wisdom, your only challenge is delivery.

Love you!

tuck

Look at the way our brains process information: billions of neurons send electric impulses to each other via axon/dendrite connections. At any given moment in time a neuron is either 'firing' or it isn't. In theory, this means we could 'map' a thought if we possessed the requisite technology. Taking an 'on' neuron as a 1, for example, and an 'off' neuron as a 0, we could represent an instant of thought as a three-dimensional 'digital snapshot', if you will.

When we see that thoughts have a physical grounding in the brain that could potentially be exactly measured it becomes easy to see that thoughts are, indeed, a part of reality. They exist (for us, at least) upon the platform of the mind which is a function of the brain which is an organ of the body that must be real or I would not be typing these words.

Coberst,

As I understand Soros and HIS theory of reflexivity it is about personal biases affecting outcomes. In economics the personal biases of investors helps decide how investments work out. If a critic makes a statement about actors the actors will change their behavior because of what the critic said and by doing so affect the play.

In a broader sense it might be explained by using Margaret Meade as an example. When she was writing her book, Growing Up In Samoa, she lived among the Samoans and by that simple act changed the way they lived thereby making her book false on one level and true on the level in which it discussed the changed Samoa she created by residing there. Heidigger discussed the same phenomenum when he talked about how a thermometer inserted into a liquid to measure its temperature changed the temperature of the liquid simply by being inserted.

Frogger

Well said. I would just extend your remark to say that if we could take out a mental space in the brain we would find that every mental space with its complex network that are the structure of any piece of what we know as reality we would find all kinds of stuff that has our personal finger prints upon it. In other words if we took my mental space where I store reality ABC and compared it with your same structure ABC we would find that they have similiarities but that much of it is very different. We hook lots of our personal stuff to every reality we create and our realities are constantly being affected by what we do at the moment.

At least this is the way it seems to me based upon what I read.

I don't think any two people can have the same reality. At the same time I think each of their seperate realities can be true and valid. Think of the Blind men of Hindustan and the elephant. One's reality said it was a rope, another's a spear and yet another's a tree. Each had his own reality based upon his personal experience vis a vis the elephant.

Where reflexivity goes further than saying each of us has his own reality is in saying that each of us also affects reality. It is this changing or altering of reality that is the crux of reflexivity. The blind men did not change the reality of the elephant by their observations. They merely expressed their personal reality. We actually affect reality.

When I was a classroom teacher I honestly expected my students to all do well. Other teachers expected their students to do poorly. I think my high expectations of my students affected the reality of how they performed. On the whole they did do well.

I agree. We all create reality and change it for others too by writing OPs for this forum.

Makes one wonder how much a reality on a matter is effected by predetermined expectations.

Sort of like the tree in the forest. If reality happened in a forest and there was no one there to interpret and affect it would it still be the same reality?

Sort of like the tree in the forest. If reality happened in a forest and there was no one there to interpret and affect it would it still be the same reality?

Sort of like a natural vs. created reality? Interesting.

Most of Coberst's topics are interesting. They force you to think rather than just be.

Sort of like the tree in the forest. If reality happened in a forest and there was no one there to interpret and affect it would it still be the same reality?

In such a case reality does not exist. Before wo/man there was no reality, i.e. reality is a creation of wo/man. I do not mean to say that the universe is there only because we create a reality we call the universe.

Look at the way our brains process information: billions of neurons send electric impulses to each other via axon/dendrite connections. At any given moment in time a neuron is either 'firing' or it isn't. In theory, this means we could 'map' a thought if we possessed the requisite technology. Taking an 'on' neuron as a 1, for example, and an 'off' neuron as a 0, we could represent an instant of thought as a three-dimensional 'digital snapshot', if you will.

When we see that thoughts have a physical grounding in the brain that could potentially be exactly measured it becomes easy to see that thoughts are, indeed, a part of reality. They exist (for us, at least) upon the platform of the mind which is a function of the brain which is an organ of the body that must be real or I would not be typing these words.

Hi Sedan! Welcome to Coberst's topic/thread :) I love your sig :) !

Sedan you as a human being/animal have the ability to exactly measure the thoughts of other humans/animals because your biological computer system has both sending and recieving systems. Therefore you have to be right :) ! Because if you can do it as a biological computer system, then science should be able to do it also. At least someday in the future, in a mechanical way.

Sedan :) Pat Paulsen is a name out of my ancient past :) I actually got to see him "live" back when I was a kid going to college. He was fun :)

tuck

Coberst,

As I understand Soros and HIS theory of reflexivity it is about personal biases affecting outcomes. In economics the personal biases of investors helps decide how investments work out. If a critic makes a statement about actors the actors will change their behavior because of what the critic said and by doing so affect the play.

In a broader sense it might be explained by using Margaret Meade as an example. When she was writing her book, Growing Up In Samoa, she lived among the Samoans and by that simple act changed the way they lived thereby making her book false on one level and true on the level in which it discussed the changed Samoa she created by residing there. Heidigger discussed the same phenomenum when he talked about how a thermometer inserted into a liquid to measure its temperature changed the temperature of the liquid simply by being inserted.

Damn :) Mr Frogger caught me :) ! Now try to explain what you just said to Nappy :) using only words :)

All Forums.net, "Minds at play!" :) it is just that nobody knows it......Now Mr Frogger has spilt the beans :( Danm!

tuck

Makes one wonder how much a reality on a matter is effected by predetermined expectations.

It is the destruction of those predetermed expectations that actually creates the change. Both in the observer and the observed.

tuck

Sort of like a natural vs. created reality? Interesting.

There is no such thing as natural. Everything is "Adapt' to fit or become extinct. Everytime mankind tries to maintain a stable system or create a stable system he fails. Because there is no such thing as a stable system. The best that one can come up with, "is moments in time."

It is like All Forums.net, over time it either grows or it dies. There is no in between. "Creativity" is the key to growth, as long as "it" does not become self destructive, that leads to extinction. And "Stagnation" leads to extinction. Dynamic interplay between creativity and stagnation. That is where the really cool crap happens :) ! We hate that part :)

tuck

Guys, it is tunning out that Mr. Frogger is an intellectual. But he is just not real happy about it :)

He is a gift to all of us :) even though he has zip for patience.

Personally, "God, but I love that man!"

tuck

There is no such thing as natural. Everything is "Adapt' to fit or become extinct. Everytime mankind tries to maintain a stable system or create a stable system he fails. Because there is no such thing as a stable system. The best that one can come up with, "is moments in time."

It is like All Forums.net, over time it either grows or it dies. There is no in between. "Creativity" is the key to growth, as long as "it" does not become self destructive, that leads to extinction. And "Stagnation" leads to extinction. Dynamic interplay between creativity and stagnation. That is where the really cool crap happens :) ! We hate that part :)

tuck

I do believe in a natural order, man's continued existance has little to do with it other than the negative chaotic thinking he persists in.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

Right, the mind is always thinking no matter what it has learned or has been taught. In fact we create the world of abstract ideas that are what we value and live and die for. Humans are meaning creating creatures, we create the values we live by.

I thought you were arguing in favor of Reflex action.
Which can be harmfull.It is normal for us to perform many daily duties
with Reflexivity.But that means we are NOT thinking.
It means DOING.Doing requires less thinking.Thinking is the
process whereby our brain undergoes intuitive sequences.We
go thru many process to determine the right action.
Some people use downside approach,and others rationalize thru
past experience.
Knowing Soros,he has an agenda to PUSH this Reflexivity.He wants
to program Americans to his political end.If a Politician can
program as many prospective Voters to their mindset,the easier
it will be to gain their vote.
In other words,no need to think too deeply.just take at face
value what Liberals tell ya,and act accordingly.
No real reason to think or doubt.

There is no such thing as natural. Everything is "Adapt' to fit or become extinct. Everytime mankind tries to maintain a stable system or create a stable system he fails. Because there is no such thing as a stable system. The best that one can come up with, "is moments in time."

It is like All Forums.net, over time it either grows or it dies. There is no in between. "Creativity" is the key to growth, as long as "it" does not become self destructive, that leads to extinction. And "Stagnation" leads to extinction. Dynamic interplay between creativity and stagnation. That is where the really cool crap happens :) ! We hate that part :)

tuck

Did anyone ever tell Darwin about his - Theory of Natural Selection -.?
I'm glad they dint.
Oh soooooooooooo glad.
Let the Monsters reign,I say.

Foolsworth

You obviously have not read the chapter that Soros has so generously placed on the Internet for us.

I do believe in a natural order, man's continued existance has little to do with it other than the negative chaotic thinking he persists in.

Ok :)

tuck

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

:) !

tuck

Did anyone ever tell Darwin about his - Theory of Natural Selection -.?
I'm glad they dint.
Oh soooooooooooo glad.
Let the Monsters reign,I say.

Mr. Worth, that was will said :)

So how about this, "For every monster there is a Champion born. In every batch of Black Dragons, there is a White One, just to keep things interesting." :)

tuck

I thought you were arguing in favor of Reflex action.
Which can be harmfull.It is normal for us to perform many daily duties
with Reflexivity.But that means we are NOT thinking.
It means DOING.Doing requires less thinking.Thinking is the
process whereby our brain undergoes intuitive sequences.We
go thru many process to determine the right action.
Some people use downside approach,and others rationalize thru
past experience.
Knowing Soros,he has an agenda to PUSH this Reflexivity.He wants
to program Americans to his political end.If a Politician can
program as many prospective Voters to their mindset,the easier
it will be to gain their vote.
In other words,no need to think too deeply.just take at face
value what Liberals tell ya,and act accordingly.
No real reason to think or doubt.

Mr. Worth, I like you :) I am sure that this can't be good! :)

tuck

"The River" is full of "Pools." Step out of your pool and explore the "Pools" of others :) , you can always step back into your "Pool". Nobody minds.

Wecome to All Forums.net, "Minds at Play!" There is always a "Pool", that you can feel comfortable in. And there are always "Pools" that you can explore.

tuck (Who ever I am, what ever I am). I love All Forums.net! Yepper, I do!

And anybody is wecome to step into this.

Everytime that somebody tries to pin something down relative to nuclear physics, something "pops" out in an unpredicable way. Even the foundation of Creation goes sideways every once in awhile.

"MAN-kind" is causing todays problems in todays world in an "evironmental" sense. Dan what do you know about the "Pleistocene Epoch"? It has been going on for 1,000,000 years now :)

Based on geological history mankind at this point is just a drop in the "bucket". This planet that we all live on has been doing what it is doing for over a million years now (and a bunch of stuff before that). So far for some reason our planet shifts. Sometimes completely upside down :). North become South :) Nobdody knows why :)

Our planet can shift 3 degrees and we are in an Ice Age again. Our planet wobbles, and nobdy knows how or why this is (and our sun heats up and cools off for some reason and I expect that it is also all mankind,s fault).

There is absolutely no true evidence that mankind is screwing up our planet. Except from folks that want "Donations" to run hysteria. All true scientific studies say that this has happened before. Before "us" in todays world. Hysterics are creating a problem that does not exist just yet and making money off of it. You have been suckered. It is not that we can't destroy our planet. It is just so far we not a part of the problem. And we actually may be helping to slow things down :)

Your turn :) I can run evidence, buy the book :) "State of Fear", by Michael Crichton. Dan, study his references/research, they are all listed. They fit my research also.

Things are abit bigger than mankind :) Not that we can't be players :) so far we haven't figured out how to be :) And I don't think that any of this has anything to do with God. It is just crap happens.

tuck

Mr. Worth, I like you :) I am sure that this can't be good! :)

tuck
Don't kid yourself, Fool, tucker loves everyone.

Don't kid yourself, Fool, tucker loves everyone.

:) Nappy! I don't love everybody. I HATE YOU. At least I am pretty sure that I do. :) Please hold up your part of things will you!?

And the truth is that "Fool" was pretty slick when he lit into Coberst :) that was way too much fun :) Coberst is actually an intelectual Nappy. Which makes things again way too much fun! He has an ice cube's chance in H., on All Forums. He would be better off being slow like you Knappy :) fair enough :)

Anyway, thank you Mr. ( :) )sterbator for being willing to talk to me :) I ain't no Gold Medal Member. Noper.

Me :)

Not yet anyway.

Not yet anyway.

Nappy how do we keep this "topic/thread" up and running? Or maybe others? Crap don't happen with viewers until things are considered "Hot Topic" :) conflict sells newspapers :) we hate that part :) And you and I are "natural enemies", if we work well together, things can be interesting :) . I personally don't want to loose you. The fans love you and I will milk it some how :) it are my nature :)

Me :)

Why would we need to keep this thread running? If you really care to, you can post something on topic here every once in awhile, like some other posters do with their pet threads.

Nappy how do we keep this "topic/thread" up and running? Or maybe others? Crap don't happen with viewers until things are considered "Hot Topic" :) conflict sells newspapers :) we hate that part :) And you and I are "natural enemies", if we work well together, things can be interesting :) . I personally don't want to loose you. The fans love you and I will milk it some how :) it are my nature :)

Me :)

Tucker you are using up all the smilies!

Why would we need to keep this thread running? If you really care to, you can post something on topic here every once in awhile, like some other posters do with their pet threads.

Well said!

Why would we need to keep this thread running? If you really care to, you can post something on topic here every once in awhile, like some other posters do with their pet threads.

Thank you Nappy, for sharing your wisdom with me, it is appreciated!

tuck

Tucker you are using up all the smilies!

Coberst :hula: I am using all the smilies up. That is pretty selfish of me isn't. :bombout:

That last post was abit over done, wasn't it :drive:

:flowers: to my friend Coberst.

tuck

PS: If anybody would like to say that I am on drugs this time, I might be. I just had "oral surgery" and I am not sure what they gave me for pain pills :) But so far so good!

My guess would be funny Tylenol, maybe oxycodone. Oxy is good shit.

My guess would be funny Tylenol, maybe oxycodone. Oxy is good shit.

Actually Nappy, I am taking asprin. I refused their drugs. And yes they thought that I was stupid. Forty-eight hours later I am beginning to think that I might have been :) Eek! I am having to run alot of yogi meditation crap to handle the pain :(

Nappy, I used to be a druggie. If you call "pot" drugs. And God still loves me and I don't do that stuff anymore.

The "sixties" where fun! I am glad that I didn't miss them :)

So Nappy, what part of Vietnam were you in, "mean-muggin"?

tuck