I had planned to write out a quick history of what exactly happened to the Irish people and Ireland during the years 1846-1851.
A time when over a million died and a million were forced to leave,while ships full of food sailed to England,but after writing it twice,Ive came to the conclusion that such an emmense topic is just way to big to stick on one page.
The Hunger was our darkest hour,one which hasnt really been healed and will never be forgotten,a moment in history which effected the western world for the next 100 years.

So Im just gonna post a link to kick it off.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/hunger.htm

Po-ta-toes

Pretty gruesome stuff, paul.

It's interesting that laissez-faire capitalism and public works socialism both failed miserably.

It doesn't matter what your economic system is if there isn't any food.

Took me an hour to read the whole article. Thank you for posting it, paul. That's one hellish story.

A terrible story.

My Dad's great grandpa was a potato famine immigrant. He was the only one of his family who could afford to come to America--West Virginia. He worked the coal mines. When my mom and Dad married, this kin sent them a beautiful Irish linen tablecloth and napkins.Would like to visit there someday.

I saw a two hour documentary on it. Gruesome is a good word for it.

Nice article Paul. Interesting parallels with our current immigration "crisis".

After a couple of generations born in the new world the pain and suffering endured by they're ancestors slips into oblivion,I figure some people dont tell they're children,or they're childrens childrens,I find that I never tell my own kids of the horrors I went thru when growing up,firstly because they wouldnt believe me,second because I do not wish to visit some of the darker places in my memory ever again,and thirdly because I dont want to pass on the hatred that I felt at the time,hatred burns the sole more than anything else.
Irish Americans celebrate the good point of they're history,and put the rest to bed,remembered but thats all,thats a good thing.

My ancestors came over during & after the great potato famine, settling in western NY & north-western PA. Most of the offspring remain in the general areas, not having moved more than 20 miles from the neighborhoods they grew up in. A nice area to visit, between Easter & Labor Day, but I can't live there.

Every day of the week,I see bus loads of American tourists,seeking to know where they come from.I used to say to myself,''fuck me,isnt it embarressing to show people from California or New York around these places.Then when I was drinking downtown,in the tourist sector,I got to talking to tourists,mostly American,and told them what I thought.Unbelieveable how generous these people were to our backwardness,even going to the extent of admitting that they would have been dissapointed if it was any different,these people told me that they 'were in touch with they're ancestors',very moving for them,and for me,god bless America.

Nobody knows for sure how many people died during the Famine,as record keeping hadnt begun at that time.
One possabl explanation has been reached by comparing the expected population of the 1850s.
Early expectations had the population in 1850s Ireland at 8-9 million.In 1851 the actual population was 6.6 million.Modern historians estimate that between 500,000 and 2,000,000 died.
Without the Famine the population of Ireland in 2001 should have been 25 million people,instead it was under 6 million.

Wow, it's amazing that the famine could have such a huge impact on the population of Ireland even today.

The potato famine was caused by decreased yield due to disease caused by planting a single type potato to the almost total exclusion of other types that were more resistant to the disease. The potatoes planted gave greater yields but were more prone to being ruined for eating purposes.

While it was a terrible time and many Irish either died or emigrated to the U.S., Canada and even England it should be remembered that not all the English landowners were heartless. Some of them paid the fares of their tenants who wanted to emigrate to America or Canada.

While it was a terrible time and many Irish either died or emigrated to the U.S., Canada and even England it should be remembered that not all the English landowners were heartless. Some of them paid the fares of their tenants who wanted to emigrate to America or Canada.
Yep, read the article Paul posted. While the British government was penalizing the landowners, they figured it was cheaper to promise their tenants money and housing on the other side of the Atlantic and stick them on boats than to keep them on their land while they weren't paying rent.

Those same landlords were purchasing food for their tenants who could not pay rent. They were hemoraging money.

Those same landlords were purchasing food for their tenants who could not pay rent. They were hemoraging money.
Oh yeah. The upper and middle classes were basically given the entire responsibility by the government to fix things in Ireland. Of course they couldn't, but the government could then claim that it wasn't their fault.

The British Government used the Famine as a ploy to rid itself of more Irish,plain and simple.
As for the landlords,these people were dispised in Ireland,most of whom never paid for the land in the first place.The land was all owned by English nobility,seized from the people during the Plantation of Ireland,when the local population wer either killed or forced off the land,starting with the most fertile regions first,the local landlords simply worked for they're English masters.
Looking at a map of Ireland today,you can see that all the Irish speaking areas,Gaeltacht,is on the West and South West coasts,were the land is very poor,mostly Mountains Bog and rock,this is were the poorest were forced,ironically with the coming of tourism,these areas benefit the most.

Oh yeah. The upper and middle classes were basically given the entire responsibility by the government to fix things in Ireland. Of course they couldn't, but the government could then claim that it wasn't their fault.

The actions of the government and the actions of individuals were quite different, DF. The government seemed to view the famine as an opportunity while many of the landlords viewed it as a tragedy.

The actions of the government and the actions of individuals were quite different, DF. The government seemed to view the famine as an opportunity while many of the landlords viewed it as a tragedy.
I know. I wonder if you misunderstand what I was saying. I was saying that many of the landlords were forced to take responsibility for the famine and they were given the entire liability for everything. Many of them did just kick the Irish off their land and destroy their villages so they could plant some other crops their to seel and make themselves money, but a lot of them also tried to help their tenants. I am aware of that.

After a couple of generations born in the new world the pain and suffering endured by they're ancestors slips into oblivion,I figure some people dint tell they're children,or they're childrens childrens,I find that I never tell my own kids of the horrors I went thru when growing up,firstly because they wouldnt believe me,second because I do not wish to visit some of the darker places in my memory ever again,and thirdly because I dont want to pass on the hatred that I felt at the time,hatred burns the sole more than anything else.Irish Americans celebrate the good point of they're history,and put the rest to bed,remembered but thats all,thats a good thing.

That's interesting that you say that Paul. It is the kind of thing only a very sensitive and loving parent would do for their kids.

I was thinking also when I first read this post that I was blessed what ever the hell that means... rather should say "lucky" enough to have been born in a country with little strife. I love my country and the lifestyle it affords me. However, I do not think it should come before other human beings "of the world". I also do not get much into my ancestry. My parents immigrated here for a reason. A better future for them and their children. I consider myself more a child of the universe, trite as that may sound.

I know many people are much into their ancestral history. Nice in some ways I guess, but what difference really? The past should not be repeated so we need to know about it yes. Hanging onto it as some kind of a pride thing for me seems ridiculous. And using it to build hate in todays world is a travesty.

Your kids are lucky. Weeeeeeeeeeell, most days eh? :D

Thanks Sal,unfortunatly what I wrote came from experience,an experience I would want to repeat,a lost childhood and a lost teenage life,years that you just cant get back.

Now,back to the Famine.Guys,you have to remember here that Irish landlords who worked for the English landowners hated they're tenants for the most part,and to suggest that the landlords hepled the tenants when they could is rather misleading.The English saw an opportunity to clear the land of sub humans,in much the same way as the Nazis did in Eastern Europe.

It's my understanding that many of the Irish landlords were Protestant--is that right, paul?

Yeah,for the most part,not only did the English view the Irish as an inferior race,they dispised the fact they were Catholic.Under the 'Penal Laws',introduced in the 1600s,catholics werent allowed to own anything really,especially land,things like judges and the business community were exclusivey British and Irish Unionist,ie Protestant.

I thought I remembered reading that paul, thanks.
Also, another question. Why is it that the English hate and despise the Irish so? Or, that is, they used to and prob some still do.
I would say this goes back to Cromwell but I think it's actually even further beyond that.

When it all started,my guess would be with Henry 8th.After he got bored with his first wife and wanted a divorce,he fell out with Rome,after that,anyone Catholic was in big trouble.
As head of his own church,he thought everyone else would roll over for him.
The English liked to call England Scotland Wales and Ireland the home countrys,Wales pretty much fell in with England,fllowed sometime later by Scotland,unfortunatly Ireland didnt play along,so a program of genocide began,with as you say Cromwell,who rampaged thru Ireland killing all priests and burning towns,forcing the people off the land,and driving vast numbers west across the Shannon were the land isnt as fertile as over in the East.
The province of Connact is the bit that sticks out into the Atlantic,
they used to say to the Irish whom they didnt kill,''to hell or connact'',meaning move west or die.
The area is very rocky with bad soil and no folage.An English captain describing it for a london newspaper was quoted as saying,''not a tree to hang them from,nor the soil to bury them in''. Nice.
In Drogheda,Cromwells troops rounded up the entire population and put them to the sword,Saint Oliver Plunkett had his head removed for him,its still on display in a glass case in the Cathedral there to this day.

I thought this may have had something to do with Henry VIII, when he broke with Rome and the Pope and set himself up as the head of his own church--Anglican, just so he could marry that hussy Anne Boleyn.

I recall reading that Elizabeth I Tudor sent the Earl of Essex over to occupy parts of Ireland but he made a mess of things--it didn't go well for him there (not surprising) and he styled himself Lord of Ireland or some such--this transgression later cost him his head, for that and other things.

Ruthless times and ruthless rulers, those Tudors.

As for Cromwell, I read somewhere that it's a major insult still to say "The curse of Cromwell be upon you" even now in Eire.

Cromwell insults wouldnt be too big these days,maybe 50-100 years ago.
Black Cromwell hes called here.

I thought this may have had something to do with Henry VIII, when he broke with Rome and the Pope and set himself up as the head of his own church--Anglican, just so he could marry that hussy Anne Boleyn.

I recall reading that Elizabeth I Tudor sent the Earl of Essex over to occupy parts of Ireland but he made a mess of things--it didn't go well for him there (not surprising) and he styled himself Lord of Ireland or some such--this transgression later cost him his head, for that and other things.

Ruthless times and ruthless rulers, those Tudors.

As for Cromwell, I read somewhere that it's a major insult still to say "The curse of Cromwell be upon you" even now in Eire.
Cromwells curse wouldnt be too common these days.
Hes still called Black Cromwell tho.

Heres Oliver Plunkett for ya.haha

Funny thing about Cromwell--he wanted to emigrate to America--the Massachusetts Bay Colony, a Puritan stronghold, but he didn't have enough money, being a yeoman farmer.

So he stayed in England and the rest is history.
Imagine how history would have changed if he'd managed to scrape up a few dollars and come here....for one thing, Charles I would have still had his head.

He is well thought of even now in England--he ranks number 10 or 11 on their all-time list of Greatest Britons, well thought of in New England here too.

PS Wow--nice pic of the other Oliver, wonder if they parboiled his head like they did at the Tower.

Funny thing about Cromwell--he wanted to emigrate to America--the Massachusetts Bay Colony, a Puritan stronghold, but he didn't have enough money, being a yeoman farmer.

So he stayed in England and the rest is history.
Imagine how history would have changed if he'd managed to scrape up a few dollars and come here....for one thing, Charles I would have still had his head.
Yes iys a strange world when you play 'ifs'.
Cromwell as you say didnt go to America,tho his beliefs did,that ruthless Anglo Saxon Protestant thing,is alive and well in the US.I sometimes think its one of the main reasons behind the anti Mexican feeling inparts of America.
[QUOTE=rendova]He is well thought of even now in England--he ranks number 10 or 11 on their all-time list of Greatest Britons, well thought of in New England here too.Yeah,and whos No 1,that other anti Irish warmonger,good old Winston.

PS Wow--nice pic of the other Oliver, wonder if they parboiled his head like they did at the Tower.I know Im gonna regret this,what is parboiled?

After your head was chopped off, it'd be parboiled in a big pot of water, chances are with other heads of "traitors" and criminals. Just think, some guy had this job, of cooking heads.

That way, the head would stay fresh and look real pretty when it was stuck up on Tower Bridge or elsewhere as a warning to other "traitors" or crooks.

Sometimes the head would stay up there for MONTHS. I imagine it would add a nice festive touch to the city decorations too, especially at Christmastime.

Yes, I read all this at the library. If only the taxpayers knew how I REALY earn my money, hehe.

[QUOTE=rendova]
Cromwell as you say didnt go to America,tho his beliefs did,that ruthless Anglo Saxon Protestant thing,is alive and well in the US.I sometimes think its one of the main reasons behind the anti Mexican feeling inparts of America.



Oh yes, definitely. Anti-foreign..it's their mentality.They did contribute some good things--checks and balances in the government, they prized education, etc. but they were no doubt hardliners.

You think its past tense then.

Yes, pretty much diluted out, I'd say...here, anyway.

I read a rather sad story of an Irish immigrant ship sinking in the great lakes while heading to a Canadian port,killing all on board,but I cant find it.I think she might have been called the Pheonix.

Empress of Ireland?
I heard tell of that myself, can't recall the name of the ship or where headed, let me look this up.

Could this be it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_of_Ireland

I don't think that's the right ship.
Here's what I found on the Pheonix

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(ship)

Im not sure Ren,but she sure fits the bill.I read the article ages ago.
Only thing is I could have sworn she got caught in a storm,but the loss of life on this boat is very high.No probs.

I think the lakes name began with E.
Any Canadian ports in Erir or Erin,that could reach the Atlantic.

Dont worry Ren,I looked for this ship before and couldnt find it.

Hey Ren,remember that ship,the Pheonix,in the great lakes,well,hehe.
She was actually the Saint John,at sea,haha.
I thought it very tragic,among tragic storys.

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/history/shipwreck_st_john.htm

Sorry

I'm curious... How did the Irish fare under the rule of Bloody Mary? Since she reestablished Catholicism, albeit for a short time, did they stop persecuting the Irish during her reign?

I hate it when u guys push my Irish history hehe.
No change,kill em all.

I think the lakes name began with E.
Any Canadian ports in Erir or Erin,that could reach the Atlantic.

Erie...Lake Erie?

Erie...Lake Erie?
I know,I seen it at the time but couldnt be arsed editing it,lazy or what.

Several posts up I was asked by Rendova and then DF about Catholic persecution,which made the terrible situation during the Famine even worse than what it should be,I felt my answers were a bit vague so I have decided to give a better explanation now.

'The Penal Laws', dating from 1695,were aimed at the destruction of Catholicism in Ireland,provoked by Irish support of the Stuarts after the Protestant William of Orange was invited to ascend the English throne in 1688,and England faced the biggest Catholic power in Europe-France.

The threat to England was very real,and vengence followed.Iriah support for the Stuarts was to be made impossable forever by reducing the Catholic Irish to helpless impotence. They were to become ''insignificant slaves,fit for nothing but to hew wood and draw water''.To achieve this objective,the Penal Laws were devised.

In broad outline,they barred Catholics from the Army and Navy,the law,commerce,and from every civic activity.No Catholic could vote,hold any office under the Crown,or purchase any land,and Catholic estates were dismembered by an enactment directing that at the death of a Catholic owner his land was to be divided among all his sons,unless the oldest became a Protestant,when he inherted the whole.

The Irish Catholic was forbidden the exercise of his religion.
He was forbidden to recieve education.
He was forbidden to enter a profession.
He was forbidden to hold public office.
He was forbidden to engage in trade or commerce.
He was forbidden to live in a corporate town or within five miles therof.
He was forbidden to own a horse of greater value than five pounds.
He was forbidden to purchase land.
He was forbidden to accept a mortgage on land in security for a loan.
He was forbidden to vote.
He was forbidden to keep any arms for his protection.
He was forbidden to hold a life annuity.
He was forbidden to buy land from a Protestant.
He was forbidden to recieve a gift of land from a Protestant.
He was forbidden to inherit land from a Protestant.
He was forbidden to inherit anything from a Protestant.
He was forbidden to rent any land that was worth more than 30 schillings a year.
He was forbidden to reap from his land any profit exceeding a third of the rent.
He could not be guardian to a child.
He could not,when dying,leave his infant children under Catholic guardianship.
He could not attend Catholic worship.
He was compelled by law to attend Protestant worship.
He could not himself educate his child.
He could not send his child to a Catholic teacher.
He could not employ a Catholic teacher to come to his child.
He could not send his child abroad to recieve education.

All this over 150 years left the Irish Catholic with nothing,then the potato blight arrived.

The above is taken from a very long link,very long,anyone interested in the whole thing click it or move on.

http://www.nde.state.ne.us/ss/irish/irish_pf.html

They weren't too nice to the English Catholics either even as little as 80 years back.

Yeah,thats true.England went from a Catholic country to the most anti Catholic country in a veru short period of time.

Wow, I knew it was bad for the Catholics, but I didn't know it was THAT bad. No wonder there's so many Irish here.

Poor Henry should have just killed the bitch, and saved the world a ton of trouble.

Yeah,thats true.England went from a Catholic country to the most anti Catholic country in a veru short period of time.


Thats pretty much what you can expect when a King, or the government, favors one religion over another. The followers of Martin Luther didn't have it much better in Germany.

Those experiences, and others of a similar nature, are the reason religion is mentioned in the First Amendment to our Constitution.

Poor Henry should have just killed the bitch, and saved the world a ton of trouble.
He couldn't.... She was important for political purposes. Henry shouldn't have even been king. Katherine of Aragon's first husband, Henry's older brother, died of the plague unfortunately.

Well,Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation, probably sickened by the corruption and lack of connection between the Catholic Heirarcy and the average Catholic peasant at the time.

Well,Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation, probably sickened by the corruption and lack of connection between the Catholic Heirarcy and the average Catholic peasant at the time.
Well he started it with his public opposition of the churches practice of selling "indulgences", that is, pardons for specific sins.

He couldn't.... She was important for political purposes. Henry shouldn't have even been king. Katherine of Aragon's first husband, Henry's older brother, died of the plague unfortunately.
She couldn't have been that important, if he was willing to annul his marriage.

She couldn't have been that important, if he was willing to annul his marriage.
Important enough that killing her would have put England into a costly and dangerous war with Spain. Although that point became rather moot after the foundation of the Anglican church and Spain's role as the leader of the Counter-Reformation... Anyways there was some amount of scandal about their marriage in the first place, since she had been the wife of his older brother. She claimed the have been a virgin when she married Henry, and that her short marriage to Arthur (I believe that was his name) was never consummated. So no one made that much of a fuss when the marriage was annulled, since it was very possibly not a "valid" (Christian) marriage in the first place.

Several posts up I was asked by Rendova and then DF about Catholic persecution,which made the terrible situation during the Famine even worse than what it should be,I felt my answers were a bit vague so I have decided to give a better explanation now.

'The Penal Laws', dating from 1695,were aimed at the destruction of Catholicism in Ireland,provoked by Irish support of the Stuarts after the Protestant William of Orange was invited to ascend the English throne in 1688,and England faced the biggest Catholic power in Europe-France.

The threat to England was very real,and vengence followed.Iriah support for the Stuarts was to be made impossable forever by reducing the Catholic Irish to helpless impotence. They were to become ''insignificant slaves,fit for nothing but to hew wood and draw water''.To achieve this objective,the Penal Laws were devised.

In broad outline,they barred Catholics from the Army and Navy,the law,commerce,and from every civic activity.No Catholic could vote,hold any office under the Crown,or purchase any land,and Catholic estates were dismembered by an enactment directing that at the death of a Catholic owner his land was to be divided among all his sons,unless the oldest became a Protestant,when he inherted the whole.

The Irish Catholic was forbidden the exercise of his religion.
He was forbidden to recieve education.
He was forbidden to enter a profession.
He was forbidden to hold public office.
He was forbidden to engage in trade or commerce.
He was forbidden to live in a corporate town or within five miles therof.
He was forbidden to own a horse of greater value than five pounds.
He was forbidden to purchase land.
He was forbidden to accept a mortgage on land in security for a loan.
He was forbidden to vote.
He was forbidden to keep any arms for his protection.
He was forbidden to hold a life annuity.
He was forbidden to buy land from a Protestant.
He was forbidden to recieve a gift of land from a Protestant.
He was forbidden to inherit land from a Protestant.
He was forbidden to inherit anything from a Protestant.
He was forbidden to rent any land that was worth more than 30 schillings a year.
He was forbidden to reap from his land any profit exceeding a third of the rent.
He could not be guardian to a child.
He could not,when dying,leave his infant children under Catholic guardianship.
He could not attend Catholic worship.
He was compelled by law to attend Protestant worship.
He could not himself educate his child.
He could not send his child to a Catholic teacher.
He could not employ a Catholic teacher to come to his child.
He could not send his child abroad to recieve education.

All this over 150 years left the Irish Catholic with nothing,then the potato blight arrived.

******************************

Regardless.I never knew an Irishman who wasn't
tough.They're truly of hardy stock.
Make great Priests,Bricklayers,Cops and Prizefighters.

I believe Henry VIII had legitimate grounds for divorce, being that Katherine had previously been married to Arthur, Henry's brother, and the Pope had granted similar divorces on practically the same grounds of consanguinity, including one to Henry's sister Margaret Tudor from James of Scotland.

The main reason he desired divorce from Katherine of Aragon was because she failed to give him a male heir. They had but one living child--Mary, ("Bloody Mary") and what a disaster she turned out to be, mercilessly persecuting the Protestant "heretics" under her disastrous reign, including the Archbishop of Canterbury, a seven year old blind girl and Bishops Latimer and Ridley, who burnt together and one said to the other just before the fire was lit--

"Be of good cheer--we are today lighting a fire in England that will never go out."

Thus the hatred for the Catholics in England, who, even now, cannot inherit the throne.

Henry saw correctly in this respect--that is, his daughter's future sorry reign, the fact that England had never had a Queen as sole ruler before, excepting Matilda, a total disaster, and also foresaw Civil War if no other legitimate heir was available to take the throne at his death. Having just gone thru the Wars of the Roses, he rightly knew that England could not withstand any more such wars within herself. He was a farseeing statesman and a good King, IMO.

PS DF, I doubt Spain would have risen up for Katherine's sake. They had their hands full with France as well as their own "heretics" within their own borders.

Sure, I think he should've been granted the divorce from Katherine with no trouble at all. It was just after that when everything went sour... The beheadings and whatnot. :p

P.S. - Don't you think Catholics had it just as bad after the switch to the Anglican church and later, under Mary's sister Elizabeth?

Elizabeth said she didn't care what religion you were, quote, something about peerring into the windows of men's souls, but she did have a problem with people messing with her throne.

See Duke of Norfolk, Mary Stuart, Thomas Babbington, et al. It wasn't that they were Catholic, they were guilty of trying to topple her, as she was considered a bastard.

Elizabeth was persecuted herself under her sister's reign, being locked in the Tower, and she showed quite a bit of tolerance according religion, given the age in which she lived, IMO.

Okay then, how about if I say "later, but excluding the reign of Elizabeth"?

Here's something on King James I Stuart, the monarch who followed Elizabeth Tudor.

From wikipedia:

The Gunpowder Plot forced James to reconsider his tolerant policy towards English Catholics; and for a while he sanctioned stricter measures to control them. In May 1606, Parliament passed an act which could require any citizen to take an Oath of Allegiance, incorporating a denial of the pope's authority over the king.[88] In practice, James proved lenient towards Catholic laymen who took the Oath of Allegiance,[89] and he tolerated Catholicism and crypto-Catholicism even at court.[90] Towards the Puritan clergy, with whom he debated at the Hampton Court Conference of 1604,[91] James was at first strict in enforcing conformity, inducing a sense of persecution amongst many Puritans;[92] but ejections and suspensions from livings became fewer as the reign wore on. A notable success of the Hampton Court Conference was the commissioning of a new translation of the Bible, completed in 1611, which became known as the King James Bible, considered a masterpiece of Jacobean prose.[93] In Scotland, James attempted to bring the Scottish kirk "so neir as can be" to the English church and reestablish the episcopacy, a policy which met with strong opposition.[94] In 1618, James's bishops forced his Five Articles of Perth through a General Assembly; but the rulings were widely resisted.[95] James was to leave the church in Scotland divided at his death, a source of future problems for his son.[96]



************************************************** **********************

Charles I Stuart, the monarch who followed James, and his Parliament, were quite harsh towards the Puritans.....thus Cromwell and the overthrow of both Charles and his Parliament.

In our day and age, it's hard to realize how seriously people took religion during these times.Tolerance was NOT the order of the day, and when one group was on top, they sought retribution. It's still going on in the British Isles.



(edited for typos)

....and thus to Cromwell.
There's surely no name spoken in Ireland to this day that raises anger hatred and vengence as much as the name, Oliver Cromwell.

In England,after the Royalists were deposed,and Parliament took control of the country,Cromwell's attention turned to Ireland were Royalists with the support of the Catholic population,still,posed a threat.

On 2 August 1649,Oliver Cromwell landed at Ringsend with 12,000 troops.Ireland was about to be conquered and retribution exacted for all the wrongs,real and imaginary,done to Protestants since 1641.

After entering Dublin,Cromwell besieged then stormed Drogheda,slaughtering thousands,in St. Peter's Church, over 1000 worshipers were attending mass,all were put to the sword.
In the next 3 years hundreds of thousands of Irish died or were transported into slavery in Bermuda and Virginia.
According to Sir William Petty,the famous English cartographer who was responsible for the Down Survey said:
''616,000 died,from a total population of 1,466,000.
Of the 850,000 people remaining in 1652,160,000 were Protestant.''

The 'adventures' act of 1642 had already commited 2.5 million acres of Irish land to the English Protestant adventurers who had subscribled monies to put down the Irish,
but in addition,there were as many as 35,000 English troops who had served in Ireland,who were to be paid in land,so as many acres again had to be found.Altogether,nearly half of Ireland was confiscated by the English and all was transferred from Catholic to Protestant ownership.

After which,the Plantation of Ulster was completed.

Playing Devil's advocate, here's something in the defense of Cromwell and his actions in Ireland:

From wikepedia:

Debate over Cromwell's impact on Ireland
The extent of Cromwell's brutality[36][37] in Ireland has been strongly debated. Cromwell never accepted that he was responsible for the killing of civilians in Ireland, claiming that he had acted harshly, but only against those "in arms". In September 1649, he justified his sack of Drogheda as revenge for the massacres of Protestant settlers in Ulster in 1641, calling the massacre "the righteous judgement of God on these barbarous wretches, who have imbued their hands with so much innocent blood".[38] However, Drogheda had never been held by the rebels in 1641—many of its garrison were in fact English royalists. On the other hand, the worst atrocities committed in Ireland, such as mass evictions, killings and deportation for slave labour to Bermuda and Barbados, were carried out under the command of other generals after Cromwell had left for England.[39] On entering Ireland, Cromwell demanded that no supplies were to be seized from the civilian inhabitants, and that everything should be fairly purchased; "I do hereby warn....all Officers, Soldiers and others under my command not to do any wrong or violence toward Country People or any persons whatsoever, unless they be actually in arms or office with the enemy.....as they shall answer to the contrary at their utmost peril". Several English soldiers were hanged for disobeying these orders.[40]

While the massacre at Drogheda (and Wexford) might not have been untypical in the context of the recently ended German Thirty Years War [41], which reduced the male population of Germany by up to half, there are few comparable incidents during Parliament's campaigns in England or Scotland. One possible comparison is Cromwell's siege of Basing House in 1645 - the seat of the prominent Catholic the Marquess of Winchester - which resulted in about 300 of the garrison of 1,200 being killed after being refused quarter. Contemporaries also reported civilian casualties. However, the scale of the deaths at Basing House was much smaller.[42] Cromwell himself said of the slaughter at Drogheda in his first letter back to the Council of State: "I believe we put to the sword the whole number of the defendants. I do not think thirty of the whole number escaped with their lives".[43] Cromwell's orders—"in the heat of the action, I forbade them to spare any that were in arms in the town"—followed a request for surrender at the start of the siege, which was refused. The military protocol of the day was that a town or garrison that rejected the chance to surrender was not entitled to quarter.[44] The refusal of the garrison at Drogheda to do this, even after the walls had been breached, was to Cromwell justification for the massacre.[45] Where Cromwell negotiated the surrender of fortified towns, as at Carlow, New Ross, and Clonmel, he respected the terms of surrender and protected the lives and property of the townspeople.[46]At Wexford, Cromwell again began negotiations for surrender. However, the captain of Wexford castle surrendered during the middle of the negotiations, and in the confusion some of his troops began indiscriminate killing and looting.[47] Amateur[48] Irish historian (and Drogheda native) Tom Reilly has taken this argument further, claiming that the accepted versions of the campaigns in Drogheda and Wexford in which wholesale killings of civilians on Cromwell's orders took place "were a 19th century fiction".[49] However, Reilly's conclusions have been largely rejected by other scholars. [50][51]

It appears from your little piece Ren that whats being said is that it was ok to kill all n sunday those whom didnt surrender,this may have been the accepted military conduct of the time,but the killing was done none the less.

Granted Cromwell was most likely in England when Irish people were transported into slavery,starting in 1653,the year after Cromwell left,
Cromwells son in law was in charge then.

Cromwell started the ball rolling,he got the blame,a murder if ever there were one.

It seems that during Cromwell reign,quite a few people got banished into slavery,in 1650,during Cromwells march across the land 25,000 Irish were sold in St Kitts.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/SLAVES.TXT

If you read the link,does it suggest that the majority of the first wave of white settlers in America were infact Irish,who were 'wrote up' as being English,something to think about.

He's the kind of guy who stirs up controversy even now. After he died and a few years later, Charles II came to take the throne of England, his body was dug up and hanged in chains.

There are nothing worse than religious wars. Both sides think they are on God's side and call the other "barbarous wretches" and such. The worse killings I can think of off- hand happened in France, the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre of Huegenot Protestants under the direction of the sinister Catherine d' Medici. Blood literally ran in the streets of Paris as civilian men ,women and kids were hacked to death indiscriminately by Catherine's Catholic henchmen. Tens of thousands died that day and night because they didn't follow the Pope's teachings.

Ah well, perhaps more merciful than what happened to the "heretics" during the reign of Bloody Mary Tudor--being slowly burnt at a stake lit by green wood so you burned slowly.

I say both sides have blood on their hands. Glad I'm out of it. Thank you, Thomas Jefferson, even if you did mess with the Constituton in order to get rid of Aaron Burr.

If you read the link,does it suggest that the majority of the first wave of white settlers in America were infact Irish,who were 'wrote up' as being English,something to think about.

Depends on the colony. In MASS and CT, mainly English--Protestant. The mid colonies. mostly Dutch or German. Virginia, English adventurers who could care less about religion--they were after gold. In MD, Catholic, many Irish.

Something for the FFV's of Virginia to think about--many claim descent from prisoners of English jails who cleaned their prisons out to send colonists here.
Petty thieves, debtors, and prostitutes.

What are FFVs ?

FFV's are the First Families of Virginia, and a bigger group of stuck up snobs you will never meet.

Get a lot of folks in here trying desperately to get in fancy Virginia lineage societies because of their "distinguished" family background--for fun, now and then I'll mention exactly where the FFVs came from just to take them down a notch or 2.

Everyone knows the best families come from Massachusetts.:D

The class system,another English vice exported.

In all fairness, I cannot think of a single society that DOESN'T have a class system.

After a couple of generations born in the new world the pain and suffering endured by they're ancestors slips into oblivion,I figure some people dont tell they're children,or they're childrens childrens,I find that I never tell my own kids of the horrors I went thru when growing up,firstly because they wouldnt believe me,second because I do not wish to visit some of the darker places in my memory ever again,and thirdly because I dont want to pass on the hatred that I felt at the time,hatred burns the sole more than anything else.
Irish Americans celebrate the good point of they're history,and put the rest to bed,remembered but thats all,thats a good thing.

You are so right Paul - the Irish are basically a happy people, dwelling on the hatred does burn the soul. I have a friend who moved to Ireland to be a professor at the University there in Belfast. He just loves it. I dearly hope to visit Ireland soon!

In all fairness, I cannot think of a single society that DOESN'T have a class system.Its a sad reflection on humanity.

You are so right Paul - the Irish are basically a happy people, dwelling on the hatred does burn the soul. I have a friend who moved to Ireland to be a professor at the University there in Belfast. He just loves it. I dearly hope to visit Ireland soon!Where is he,Queens?

Where is he,Queens?

Lives in some condos close to the University.

Condos ?

Condos ?

Yes, he calls them condos -they have all the fastfoods we do here - even a Starbucks - but I'm sure you know that. He loves the guiness however, too. :drinktoth I would too! Are you near Belfast? - no forget that- you probably don't want to disclose that. Online and everything.

Yeah,not that far from Queens actualy.

I dearly hope to visit Ireland soon!
Yeah - well, when you get there, I dearly hope you stay.

and so to the ships............

The first ships,headed for Quebec,Canada.The 3000 mile journey could take anywhere between 40 days and 3 months,depending on weather and the Captains skills.
Upon arrival in the Saint Lawerence River,the ships were supposed to be inspected for disease and any sick passengers removed to quarantine on Grosse Isle,a small island 30 miles downstream from Quebec City.

By the spring of 1847,shipload after shipload of fevered Irish arrived,quickly overwhelming the small medical station.,which only had 150 beds.
By June 1847,forty ships containing 14,000 Irish immigrants waited in line extending miles down the Saint Lawerence.A fifteen day quarantine was imposed on all ships.
Many healthy Irish seccumbed to typhus as they were forced to remain in lice infested holds.With so many dead on board the waiting ships,hundreds of bodies were simly dumped overboard into the Saint Lawerence River.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/coffin.htm