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Napsterbater
09-05-2007, 10:55 PM
Too long to quote here in its entirety, I'll make a few excerpts. Link:

http://denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm

I’m sure you’re expecting me to talk about Larry Summers at some point, so let’s get it over with! You recall, he was the president of Harvard. As summarized in The Economist, “Mr Summers infuriated the feminist establishment by wondering out loud whether the prejudice alone could explain the shortage of women at the top of science.” After initially saying, it’s possible that maybe there aren’t as many women physics professors at Harvard because there aren’t as many women as men with that high innate ability, just one possible explanation among others, he had to apologize, retract, promise huge sums of money, and not long afterward he resigned.

What was his crime? Nobody accused him of actually discriminating against women. His misdeed was to think thoughts that are not allowed to be thought, namely that there might be more men with high ability. The only permissible explanation for the lack of top women scientists is patriarchy — that men are conspiring to keep women down. It can’t be ability. Actually, there is some evidence that men on average are a little better at math, but let’s assume Summers was talking about general intelligence. People can point to plenty of data that the average IQ of adult men is about the same as the average for women. So to suggest that men are smarter than women is wrong. No wonder some women were offended.

But that’s not what he said. He said there were more men at the top levels of ability. That could still be true despite the average being the same — if there are also more men at the bottom of the distribution, more really stupid men than women. During the controversy about his remarks, I didn’t see anybody raise this question, but the data are there, indeed abundant, and they are indisputable. There are more males than females with really low IQs. Indeed, the pattern with mental retardation is the same as with genius, namely that as you go from mild to medium to extreme, the preponderance of males gets bigger.

Creativity may be another example of gender difference in motivation rather than ability. The evidence presents a seeming paradox, because the tests of creativity generally show men and women scoring about the same, yet through history some men have been much more creative than women. An explanation that fits this pattern is that men and women have the same creative ability but different motivations.

I am a musician, and I’ve long wondered about this difference. We know from the classical music scene that women can play instruments beautifully, superbly, proficiently — essentially just as well as men. They can and many do. Yet in jazz, where the performer has to be creative while playing, there is a stunning imbalance: hardly any women improvise. Why? The ability is there but perhaps the motivation is less. They don’t feel driven to do it.

I suppose the stock explanation for any such difference is that women were not encouraged, or were not appreciated, or were discouraged from being creative. But I don’t think this stock explanation fits the facts very well. In the 19th century in America, middle-class girls and women played piano far more than men. Yet all that piano playing failed to result in any creative output. There were no great women composers, no new directions in style of music or how to play, or anything like that. All those female pianists entertained their families and their dinner guests but did not seem motivated to create anything new.

Meanwhile, at about the same time, black men in America created blues and then jazz, both of which changed the way the world experiences music. By any measure, those black men, mostly just emerging from slavery, were far more disadvantaged than the middle-class white women. Even getting their hands on a musical instrument must have been considerably harder. And remember, I’m saying that the creative abilities are probably about equal. But somehow the men were driven to create something new, more than the women.

The Most Underappreciated Fact

The first big, basic difference has to do with what I consider to be the most underappreciated fact about gender. Consider this question: What percent of our ancestors were women?

It’s not a trick question, and it’s not 50%. True, about half the people who ever lived were women, but that’s not the question. We’re asking about all the people who ever lived who have a descendant living today. Or, put another way, yes, every baby has both a mother and a father, but some of those parents had multiple children.

Recent research using DNA analysis answered this question about two years ago. Today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men.

I think this difference is the single most underappreciated fact about gender. To get that kind of difference, you had to have something like, throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced.

Some sociological writings about the male role have emphasized that to be a man, you have to produce more than you consume. That is, men are expected, first, to provide for themselves: If somebody else provides for you, you’re less than a man. Second, the man should create some additional wealth or surplus value so that it can provide for others in addition to himself. These can be his wife and children, or others who depend on him, or his subordinates, or even perhaps just paying taxes that the government can use. Regardless, you’re not a man unless you produce at that level.

DarkFantasy96
09-05-2007, 11:09 PM
It really is fascinating!

DarkFantasy96
09-05-2007, 11:28 PM
Now that I've read the whole thing, I thought it was interesting and enlightening. However, at the risk of sounding like a feminist, it was slightly misogynistic in places, although more because of the author's phrasing and writing style than because of the actual content.

Napsterbater
09-05-2007, 11:30 PM
I can't see where you'd get misogynistic. Perhaps you could give me an example?

DarkFantasy96
09-05-2007, 11:31 PM
Well like I said, it's not really in the content. I think there are just overtones of sexism coming from some of the language of the author. Nothing too tangible, even though it is writing. :p I may not be making sense.

Napsterbater
09-05-2007, 11:36 PM
Well, I guess sexism, like most forms of bigotry, is as much in tone and intent as it is in content. But an article explaining gender differences in a scientific and statistical terms? Are you sure you don't just find the very attempt sexist? Like the example of Larry Summers he provides?

DarkFantasy96
09-05-2007, 11:38 PM
Well, I guess sexism, like most forms of bigotry, is as much in tone and intent as it is in content. But an article explaining gender differences in a scientific and statistical terms? Are you sure you don't just find the very attempt sexist? Like the example of Larry Summers he provides?
Of course not. Men are superior to women in some things and women are superior in an equal amount of things. It's just that the article makes it seem as though mens' talents are somehow better than women's, even though they may not be better at more things.

Napsterbater
09-05-2007, 11:43 PM
He didn't really touch much on talent at all, and in fact went on to say that talent is roughly equal. But what I think you're referring to is the place that humans has evolved in society for men. The large social structures, the expendability argument and the earning manhood part, am I correct?

DarkFantasy96
09-05-2007, 11:46 PM
He didn't really touch much on talent at all, and in fact went on to say that talent is roughly equal. But what I think you're referring to is the place that humans has evolved in society for men. The large social structures, the expendability argument and the earning manhood part, am I correct?
I have no issue with those. It's just that the author seems to be implying in his descriptions of man's roles in society that society would not be such a good place were the traits of women to become more dominant.

Napsterbater
09-05-2007, 11:54 PM
What do you think? Could society work as well as it does if women's traits were dominant?

Frogger
09-06-2007, 05:39 AM
Fascinating article, Nappy.


I'm not surprised DarkFantasy didn't really get it. She is, after all, only female.:lolhit:

DarkFantasy96
09-06-2007, 01:17 PM
What do you think? Could society work as well as it does if women's traits were dominant?
I think it would work as well, it would just work differently. Of course that's the point that was made in the article. Basically I think the author is a sexist who is trying to be diplomatic and fair.

Phyrex
09-06-2007, 02:33 PM
Good article, makes sense.

Leper
09-06-2007, 03:04 PM
It's refreshing to read someone who understands that statistical differences between men and women are not always related to sexism.

I've long thought that our society has taken on a irrationally vindictive attitude towards men in the past couple of decades. I would further hypothesize that this attitude is the reason behind the lack of success in young males in school nowadays.

CarbonBasedLife
09-06-2007, 03:06 PM
This paragraph really made a lot of sense to me:

I am a musician, and I’ve long wondered about this difference. We know from the classical music scene that women can play instruments beautifully, superbly, proficiently — essentially just as well as men. They can and many do. Yet in jazz, where the performer has to be creative while playing, there is a stunning imbalance: hardly any women improvise. Why? The ability is there but perhaps the motivation is less. They don’t feel driven to do it.

It's something I've observed myself. I play poker and Counter-strike (a video game) competitively and the women I've played with simply just aren't as good as the men. I think it just has to do with the fact that men, in general, have a bigger competitive drive than women. Men are trying to improve constantly...they pick up things along the way. Women usually don't. It's not that they're dumber or anything, it's just that they aren't as driven to improve in these competitive atmospheres as the men are.

Leper
09-06-2007, 03:19 PM
Men are trying to improve constantly...they pick up things along the way. Women usually don't. It's not that they're dumber or anything, it's just that they aren't as driven to improve in these competitive atmospheres as the men are.

I've observed this as well. There is truth that women compete in a much more conservative manner then men. Moreover, I think men have a tendency to be more passionate in their competition. Risk + passion is the path to greatness, both in terms of success and failure.

Oldtimer
09-10-2007, 11:49 PM
.... Basically I think the author is a sexist who is trying to be diplomatic and fair.

I agree, but 'tis difficult to be non-sexist though. We all respond according to our gender.
It is an interesting article and his emphasis on trying to describe the differences, rather than trying to equate the sexes is refreshing.