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LiquidFork
09-05-2007, 05:26 PM
SIZE="1"](This is not a media source that has been pre-approved by FT,Sedan and company)[/SIZE]
1. Count Every Vote- This was the mantra of the Al Gore campaign after the 2000 presidential election, when they were hand counting votes in 3 highly Democratic counties, while at the same time trying to disqualify military votes. In effect they were trying to change the rules of the election after the election had taken place, which violated federal election law. A liberal Florida Supreme Court ruled in the favor of the Gore Campaign until the U.S. Supreme Court put a stop to it. To this very day, liberals actually believe George Bush stole the election.

2. There is a vast right wing conspiracy- There is a far right wing in the Republican Party, but it is a small fringe element. However, there is a far left wing in this country and it is a large part of the main stream of the Democratic party. Remember when Hillary Clinton went on the Today Show and responded to the allegation of an affair between her husband (President Clinton) and an intern (Monica Lewinsky) as untrue and blamed it on a Right Wing Conspiracy? Over the past ten years Tom Daschle, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Mario Cuomo, Richard Gephardt and Jesse Jackson have been the loudest and most influential voices in the Democratic party. Are any of these people Moderates? Also please note, there is a liberal bias in the media. You might make the argument that there is a vast left wing conspiracy.

[3. There is no liberal bias in the media- For close to 50 years the news in America was controlled by ABC, NBC and CBS. In the last 20 years CNN came on to the scene. This is pretty much comparable to the BBC in Europe and AL Jazzera in the Arab world today. It was in the last 6 years when Fox News and other cable news networks were born to give a more balanced approach to news analysis. However, if you look at the major networks today, they are still run by the left. Tim Russert, the President of NBC News, at one time worked for Mario Cuomo. The top players at ABC News are Peter Jennings, George Stephanopolous, Sam Donaldson and Cokie Roberts- hardly conservatives. Lets not forget the statement the President of ABC News made after September 11th. CBS News has Dan Rather and Bob Schieffer- more non-conservatives. All you have to say about CNN is that it was created by Ted Turner. In print media there is the Los Angeles Times in California, The New York Times in New York and The Atlanta Journal Constitution in Georgia. These have been the major newspapers in our most populous cities for many years and their reporting has a liberal bias.

4. Republicans want to cut school lunch programs- This was the attack leveled by Democrats against the Republicans during a budget battle in 1995. Democrats proposed a double digit increase in funding for school lunch programs, while Republican proposed a more modest increase. To put this in perspective, you must ask this question. How many people get a double digit increase in their pay each year? Democrats called the Republican proposal a cut and charged they wanted to starve children, because the proposal was less than what Democrats proposed. Please note, the Republican proposal called for an increase in funding. The media printed the story, never challenging it, even though it was not true. This became famous for when does an increase become a cut- only in Washington DC.

5. This is a Bush recession- Liberals blame George Bush for the weak economy and say his tax cut has only made the economy worse. They point to jobs lost, the level of unemployment, the level of the financial markets and slow growth since he took office. The economy was beginning to turn around leading up to September 11, 2001. After the attack on September 11, everything changed. People did stop flying, hurting the airline industry, which in turn hurt hotels, restaurants, theme parks and tourism. There were some businesses that closed for an entire week and some in New York that never reopened. The financial markets were closed for more than a week and the financial services industry was devastated. September 11th hurt all sectors of the economy, which resulted in tens of thousands of layoffs. So how is George Bush is responsible for the poor economy? Liberals would have you forget that the attack on September 11th took place and we must never forget. George Bush is trying to revive the economy by lowering taxes. The irony here, the liberals who accuse him of hurting the economy oppose his tax cuts.

6. The banning of partial birth abortions is an assault on a woman's privacy and right to choose. A partial birth abortion is the termination of a life as a child is being born; hence the term partial birth abortion. The great divide on this issue rests with the circumstance that this procedure should be allowed. Liberals believe it should be allowed when the mother's health is in danger. Conservatives believe the procedure should only be allowed when the mother's life is in danger. Well established law states that deadly force can only be used to meet deadly force. This means that you can only use deadly force when you believe your life is in danger. If someone with the flu coughs on you, your health is danger. If someone berates you, your mental health may be in danger. If your neighbor doesn't take care of their property, it will cause you great aggravation and stress. However, there is no legal cause to use deadly force in any of these circumstances. However, liberals will allow children as they are being born to have their lives ended for the broad definition of health. Republicans tried to pass a bans on partial birth abortions with the exception of when the mother's life was in danger. However, Bill Clinton vetoed their efforts keeping in place the standard that if the health of the mother was in danger the procedure could take place. Another liberal lie with children's life as the casualty.

7. Democrats are for working class families- As Democrats are opposed to every tax reduction this statement is almost ludicrous. The largest obstacle to gaining wealth is taxes. The single biggest issue affecting middle class families on a daily basis is taxes. The middle class taxpayer pays close to 50% of their income in taxes. Please consider the following: federal income tax, state income tax, state sales tax, property tax, gas tax, tolls, taxes on alcohol and cigarettes, utility taxes, automobile registration fees, county surtaxes. Democrats are not for the middle class and break down their support into groups. They get funds and count on votes from women by being pro-choice, minorities for supporting affirmative action, gays for supporting gay rights, unions for not supporting school vouchers, and environmentalists supporting things such as not drilling for oil in Alaska. On the those who don't pay close attention to the issues they use spin- reference the top ten liberal lies!

8. Bill Clinton created millions of jobs- What policy did Bill Clinton implement to create millions of jobs? The majority of jobs that were created under the Clinton Administration were Internet related. The great boom of the Internet led to the creation of millions of jobs, which Clinton had nothing to do with. As a result of so many people working and paying taxes, there were large government surpluses. However, instead of attacking terrorism, Bill Clinton decided to use the Justice Department to attack Microsoft. There is a direct time line link between the decline of the NASDAQ and the ruling to break up Microsoft. As the NASDAQ declined many Internet companies failed or downsized. As a result, millions of jobs were lost and government revenues declined. Bill Clinton was handed a great economy and with his actions only served to undermine it.

9. There was a rush to war in Iraq. I would have given diplomacy a chance and created a world coalition. Please note that Iraq violated 16 United Nation resolutions over a period of 10 years. The only reason Saddam Hussein allowed United Nations inspectors to search for weapons of mass destruction was due to the fact that the United States had Iraq surrounded by war ships and over 100,000 U.S. troops. He had ordered them out of Iraq and took actions to block them from inspecting sites. Many of the troops had been sitting in the desert and on ships for 6 to 8 months before the war began while diplomacy was given a chance. Military leaders had many factors to consider in the timing of the war in Iraq, such as the time of year (weather conditions) and morale of the troops. They could not invade in the middle of summer or in the middle of winter. They also could not leave our men and women in uniform remaining idle and bored for months or years while we try to negotiate with a dictator as countries like France undercut our efforts. If you really want to lower morale and place troops in great danger- leave them sitting stationed idle in a desert around Iraq for two years before conducting a war. I guess this would have been the plan of the Democratic Party.

10. We don't need to drill for oil in Alaska, because we could save the same amount of oil by increasing the standards for miles per gallon on cars and SUV's- What liberals are really saying is that they care more about contributions from environmentalists than they do about your family. What they are saying is they care more about the caribou than your children. When you lower the standards of miles per gallon, in effect you lower the safety of cars. Please note, America is about freedom of choice. If someone wants to drive an SUV, so be it. I guess liberals would have us all driving around in a Yugo if they had their choice. It wasn't that long ago when liberals were trying to reduce the speed limits on highways, because they said it would save lives. Do you see a contradiction here? Also please note, no one knows how much oil is in Alaska. I know liberals will charge that Republicans are for drilling in Alaska, because oil companies are a big contributor to their party. I am not even going to go into the National Security implication and benefits of being energy dependent from the Middle East. Lastly, and most importantly, we need to develop affordable alternative sources of energy such as hydrogen fuel cells.

11. The comparison of President Bush to Hitler by liberal extremists such as Moveon.org - Please note that Hitler conducted a war to conquer countries in order to expand his empire. He purposefully enslaved and murdered millions of innocent people. President Bush conducted a war to liberate innocent people and rid the world of a dangerous dictator. A dictator that had started two wars and purposefully murdered his own people. This comparison by liberals would be like comparing a criminal that raided a home for the purpose of murdering its innocent occupants to obtain their possessions and the police raiding a home to capture that criminal.

12. George Bush was not elected by a majority of the American people so he does not have a mandate for his agenda- This was the mantra of Tom Daschle after he became the Senate Majority Leader. Daschle became the Senate majority Leader when Senator Jim Jeffords switched from the Republican Party to the Independent Party, thereby giving the Democrats a one person majority in the Senate. Daschle became Senate Majority Leader not by vote of the American people, but from a Senator switching parties. He used his position to say George Bush did not have a mandate and then blocked straight up or down votes in the Senate by requiring a super majority of 60 votes to pass certain legislation. In effect, Daschle was trying to impose his own agenda on the American people when they did not elect him to do so. As we all know, in the 2002 congressional elections, Democrats lost seats in the Senate and Daschle lost his lost his position as Senate Majority Leader.

14. It was wrong to fire Linda Ronstadt- she has the right of freedom of speech-
Linda Ronstadt was hired to do a job, she offended the owner's customers and she was fired. Please be advised that a business owner has every right to fire an employee that offends its customers. Linda Ronstadt is not going to jail for her comments and she can speak out all she wants on her own time. Liberals that say it is a matter of free speech are just lying, ignorant or never owned a business. Please note that Michael Moore is asking the owners of the casino to apologize to Ronstadt and bring her back to perform. This is an example of how Moore distorts the truth and reality. If someone working at a job offends 40% of the customers- what do you think might happen? Common sense would dictate that they would not have a job very long. Imagine on the show The Apprentice - if a contestant offended almost one half of their prospective customers? How long do you think it would be before Donald Trump said - you're fired? Would this person's freedom of speech being inhibited because they were fired? Should Trump apologize and ask the contestant back? That is how ridiculous Moore's statement is! Employees are being paid to generate business- not drive it away. Linda Ronstadt is being paid to do a job and she should do it. Her job is not to offend the owner's customers! If you owned a business and you had an employee that was offending customers - you would fire them too!

15.The terror alert was based on dated information that was years old - it was done for political purposes by the Bush Administration.
In August 2004, the Bush Administration released a warning to the public about possible plans by al Qaeda to target financial centers in some large U.S. cities. This information was met with criticism and skepticism by liberal Democrats and the liberal media because the warning was based on information was was a few years old. Please be advised that al Qaeda does not plan major attacks and carry them out the following day. The most destructive terrorist attacks executed by al Qaeda were planned for years. The attack on America on September 11, 2001, was 5 years in the making. Does this mean if that plot was learned 4 1/2 years after it was conceived (6 months before it occurred) that the information should have be dismissed as old and dated? That seems to be the strategy of liberal Democrats and the opinion of liberal media. These are the same liberals that bash President Bush for not doing enough to fight the war on terror.

16. The Swift Boat Veterans that are speaking out against John Kerry are lying- they were not on Kerry's boat.
This is the equivalent of a defense lawyer stating that a witness who saw a murder from across the street is lying, because the witness was not on the actual street corner of the murder. Please note that most of the Swift Boats patrolled in groups. The veterans did not have to actually be on Kerry's boat to witness what took place.

17. The attempt by liberals to stop television stations from airing the Swift Boat veterans ad about John Kerry's military service because they say it contains false and libelous charges.Liberal organizations run television ads against President Bush based on innuendo, speculation, accusation and distorted truths. Liberals have always run these types of ads. Remember the James Byrd ad that ran in Texas? Moveon.org has even created ads comparing President Bush to Adolf Hitler. Julian Bond - the leader of the the NAACP- in speeches has compared the Bush Administration to Nazi Germany. All of this is rhetoric. It is opinion and not based on facts or eyewitness accounts. The Swift Boat Veterans are speaking out based upon their eyewitness accounts. This is just another example of the tactic of liberal spin, which is accusing their opponents of the exact tactic they are using.

18. America is partly to blame for the acts of terrorism that took place on 9/11. The people of Spain, Australia, Iraq, Pakistan, Israel and the children in Russian did nothing to deserve the acts of terror that they have suffered. Terrorists have killed their own people and dictators have killed and watched their own people suffer. Yet- liberals such as Ted Turner believe that America shares part of the blame for the attacks on September 11, 2001.

19. It wasn't rape- what was she doing in his hotel room that late at night?
This is the defense that liberals proposed in reference to the allegations of rape against Mike Tyson and Kobe Bryant. They had no regard or consideration for the facts. Liberals believed that because a woman was in a hotel room late at night if she was raped it was totally appropriate. Do you think they would believe this if it were their daughter? Let me tell you how ridiculous their argument is. If you follow this logic then this must mean that if a woman kisses a man passionately - he has the right to have intercourse with her. The liberal argument would follow that - what was she doing kissing him? If you follow this logic it means that if a woman takes a trip to see a male friend he has the right to have intercourse with her? The liberal argument would be - why was she going all that way to see him? I have been in hotel rooms late at night many times in my life with friends. I guess according to liberals - women do not have the same freedoms as men.

20. Abraham Lincoln, Rudy Guliani, Colin Powell, Schwarzenegger..... are liberals
Liberals will try to claim Republicans to their side by saying that they are really liberals. They will point to one or two issues to make their case. Liberals will argue that Republicans such as Rudy Guliani or Arnold Schwarzenegger are really liberals because they are pro choice. I have heard liberals say that Colin Powell is a liberal, because he is an anti-war general. This would be the equivalent of saying that Joe Lieberman is a conservative because he supported the war in Iraq or that Bill Clinton was a conservative, because he supported welfare reform. You must look at a person and their views as a whole- not just one or two. The above politicians in the title of this section agree with 90% of the conservative cause. Because they do not agree with 100% of the conservative platform- does not make them liberal. This only shows that the Republican Party is an inclusive party that welcomes diverse views and it is the Democratic party is an extreme party. If you are a pro choice Democrat - you will not find a prevalent role in the that Party.

Vilepagan
09-05-2007, 07:46 PM
It's generally considered good form to post a link to your source. Otherwise, you're just a plagiarist. :)

moderate
09-05-2007, 07:53 PM
It's generally considered good form to post a link to your source. Otherwise, you're just a plagiarist. :)


Is there a particular reason you have never said that to "truthout". Or is this just another sign of the rampant hypocrisy here at AFN?

BorgHunter
09-05-2007, 07:56 PM
Is there a particular reason you have never said that to "truthout". Or is this just another sign of the rampant hypocrisy here at AFN?
Blah blah troll blah blah.

moderate
09-05-2007, 07:59 PM
Blah blah troll blah blah.


Thought so.

BorgHunter
09-05-2007, 08:00 PM
Thought so.
You confuse me, sir, with Vilepagan. I was not answering your question; I was pointing out that your question was fallacious and trollishly stated.

moderate
09-05-2007, 08:05 PM
You confuse me, sir, with Vilepagan. I was not answering your question; I was pointing out that your question was fallacious and trollishly stated.

Then you might try doing so in english, rather than playground bullshit. But my question still stands. If you don't have an answer, don't respond.

BorgHunter
09-05-2007, 08:08 PM
Then you might try doing so in english, rather than playground bullshit. But my question still stands. If you don't have an answer, don't respond.
Sorry, but I can respond in whatever manner I wish, whenever I wish. Where do you get off asking such loaded questions?

moderate
09-05-2007, 08:10 PM
Sorry, but I can respond in whatever manner I wish, whenever I wish. Where do you get off asking such loaded questions?


Then :upyours:

Frogger
09-05-2007, 08:47 PM
Is there a particular reason you have never said that to "truthout". Or is this just another sign of the rampant hypocrisy here at AFN?


Welcome to the light, Moderate. As time goes by more and more posters will come to the same conclusion you came to.

Vilepagan
09-05-2007, 09:08 PM
Is there a particular reason you have never said that to "truthout".

I suppose I didn't feel like saying it before. Were you waiting for me to say it for some reason?


Or is this just another sign of the rampant hypocrisy here at AFN?

Hypocrisy? In what way?

BorgHunter
09-05-2007, 09:14 PM
Welcome to the light, Moderate. As time by more and more posters will come to the same conclusion you came to.
Then why are you two still here?

500lbguerilla
09-05-2007, 09:22 PM
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6899/libszv1.jpg

moderate
09-05-2007, 11:21 PM
I suppose I didn't feel like saying it before. Were you waiting for me to say it for some reason?



Hypocrisy? In what way?


Thats rich.

Frogger
09-06-2007, 05:04 AM
Then why are you two still here?

Because there is no reason for us to not be here.

Moderate didn't say truthout should be banned. He questioned why he seemed to be held to a different standard than he, Moderate.

You know as well as I do and as Moderate does that different posters are held to different standards by some, not all mods. Those posters more in agreement with their views are held to a lesser standard than those who are generally in disagreement with them. While this may perhaps be human nature that does not mean it should not be commented on. Moderators should endeavor to be even handed and when it is perceived that they are not there is nothing wrong with commenting on it.

Vilepagan
09-06-2007, 06:02 AM
Thats rich.

I'm afraid you're not making much sense. You seem to have some complaint about the moderating, but you haven't said what it is beyond a vague reference to "rampant hypocrisy". Can you be more specific please? Hypocrisy towards who? In what way?

Vilepagan
09-06-2007, 06:13 AM
Because there is no reason for us to not be here.

Of course there isn't.


Moderate didn't say truthout should be banned.

Correct, he didn't say that.


He questioned why he seemed to be held to a different standard than he, Moderate.

He didn't say that either. What he has said so far is this:

"Is there a particular reason you have never said that to "truthout". Or is this just another sign of the rampant hypocrisy here at AFN?"

And

"That's rich"


You know as well as I do and as Moderate does that different posters are held to different standards by some, not all mods.

Frogger, you don't speak for Moderate. If you have a specific example of favoritism that you'd like addressed please post it.


Those posters more in agreement with their views are held to a lesser standard than those who are generally in disagreement with them. While this may perhaps be human nature that does not mean it should not be commented on. Moderators should endeavor to be even handed and when it is perceived that they are not there is nothing wrong with commenting on it.

So comment on it, but please give some specific examples, if you'd like to be taken seriously. If the moderators are as inept as you like to portray, it should be easy for you to find some examples of this favoritism and hypocrisy. Vague accusations are worthless.

moderate
09-06-2007, 06:54 AM
I'm afraid you're not making much sense. You seem to have some complaint about the moderating, but you haven't said what it is beyond a vague reference to "rampant hypocrisy". Can you be more specific please? Hypocrisy towards who? In what way?

Oh, so you were speaking as a "Moderator". I thought you were just acting as another poster. Its so hard to tell. From now on I will consider all your comments to be "official".

It's generally considered good form to post a link to your source. Otherwise, you're just a plagiarist.

If you cant see the hypocrisy of your actions, there is no point in trying to explain it to you.

I suppose I didn't feel like saying it before. Were you waiting for me to say it for some reason?
Hypocrisy? In what way?

Vilepagan
09-06-2007, 06:58 AM
Oh, so you were speaking as a "Moderator". I thought you were just acting as another poster. Its so hard to tell. From now on I will consider all your comments to be "official".

Are you deliberately being an idiot? I was just acting as another poster which is why your complaint about hypocrisy makes no sense to me.


If you cant see the hypocrisy of your actions, there is no point in trying to explain it to you.

I can only conclude you can't explain it either. If I was just stating my personal opinion as a poster, the only way for me to be "hypocritical" would be if I posted an opposing opinion on the subject. Have I?

moderate
09-06-2007, 07:26 AM
Are you deliberately being an idiot? I was just acting as another poster which is why your complaint about hypocrisy makes no sense to me.

I can only conclude you can't explain it either. If I was just stating my personal opinion as a poster, the only way for me to be "hypocritical" would be if I posted an opposing opinion on the subject. Have I?


Saying this: "It's generally considered good form to post a link to your source. Otherwise, you're just a plagiarist." to "Liquid" while ignoring "Truth" for doing the same thing, over 400 times, either makes a hypocrite or the most inconsistent SOB around. Your choice.

Frogger
09-06-2007, 08:21 AM
You seem to want to have it both ways, Vilepagan. You post like a moderator, telling people they should use citations, or more accurately telling only some people, and then when you are called on it you are suddenly Vilepagan, fellow poster. If you are going to be posting in a way that many can mistake for a moderator, as Moderate did, perhaps you should use an identifyer, you know, a little symbol to let us know which hat you are wearing. You seem to change hats after the fact according to how your post is received.

DarkFantasy96
09-06-2007, 01:26 PM
You seem to want to have it both ways, Vilepagan. You post like a moderator, telling people they should use citations, or more accurately telling only some people, and then when you are called on it you are suddenly Vilepagan, fellow poster.
Why does he have to be a moderator to recommend that someone use citations?

Also, moderate, I think that truthout almost always posts links when he is using information from another source. When he doesn't post a link, that means it's just coming from his brain. :eek: And perhaps Vile realizes that no one takes truthout seriously anyways...

CarbonBasedLife
09-06-2007, 01:33 PM
Is there a particular reason you have never said that to "truthout". Or is this just another sign of the rampant hypocrisy here at AFN?


Show me an article that truthout has posted that doesn't have a link and/or the author in his post. "Rampant hypocrisy"...ROFL! You see what you want to believe.

dnamertz
09-06-2007, 02:00 PM
1. Count Every Vote- This was the mantra of the Al Gore campaign after the 2000 presidential election, when they were hand counting votes in 3 highly Democratic counties, while at the same time trying to disqualify military votes. In effect they were trying to change the rules of the election after the election had taken place, which violated federal election law. A liberal Florida Supreme Court ruled in the favor of the Gore Campaign until the U.S. Supreme Court put a stop to it. To this very day, liberals actually believe George Bush stole the election.

Kind of like how every conservative believes the liberals were trying to steal the same election?



7. Democrats are for working class families- As Democrats are opposed to every tax reduction this statement is almost ludicrous.

The tax reduction I always hear liberals complain about are for "the wealthiest 2%"? When did they start complaining about tax cuts for the middle class?


17. The attempt by liberals to stop television stations from airing the Swift Boat veterans ad about John Kerry's military service because they say it contains false and libelous charges.

You mean the same TV stations you accused of being liberal in point #3? Just checking.


[B]19. It wasn't rape- what was she doing in his hotel room that late at night?
This is the defense that liberals proposed in reference to the allegations of rape against Mike Tyson and Kobe Bryant. They had no regard or consideration for the facts. Liberals believed that because a woman was in a hotel room late at night if she was raped it was totally appropriate. Do you think they would believe this if it were their daughter? Let me tell you how ridiculous their argument is. If you follow this logic then this must mean that if a woman kisses a man passionately - he has the right to have intercourse with her. The liberal argument would follow that - what was she doing kissing him? If you follow this logic it means that if a woman takes a trip to see a male friend he has the right to have intercourse with her? The liberal argument would be - why was she going all that way to see him? I have been in hotel rooms late at night many times in my life with friends. I guess according to liberals - women do not have the same freedoms as men.

HOW did that become a Liberal argument? I've heard people make that argument, but they never stated their political beliefs when doing so. All I know about the people I heard making this argument regarding Kobe was that they were Kobe fans. Maybe this is actually your belief about women getting raped.

Vilepagan
09-06-2007, 05:18 PM
You seem to want to have it both ways, Vilepagan.

I do have it both ways Frogger. In addition to being a moderator I'm also a member here.


You post like a moderator, telling people they should use citations, or more accurately telling only some people, and then when you are called on it you are suddenly Vilepagan, fellow poster.

I didn't tell Liquid to do anything. I said it's considered bad form to post someone else's writing without attribution.


If you are going to be posting in a way that many can mistake for a moderator, as Moderate did, perhaps you should use an identifyer, you know, a little symbol to let us know which hat you are wearing.

Moderator didn't make a mistake. He correctly deduced I was posting as a member. That's why he said this: "Oh, so you were speaking as a "Moderator". I thought you were just acting as another poster." I was a bit confused when he accused me of "rampant hypocrisy" and I thought he might have been confused about my role when I posted my query about hypocrisy, but his subsequent post cleared that up.

You seem to change hats after the fact according to how your post is received.

You seem to be looking for something to piss and moan about.

Foolsworth
09-06-2007, 05:35 PM
You seem to want to have it both ways, Vilepagan. You post like a moderator, telling people they should use citations, or more accurately telling only some people, and then when you are called on it you are suddenly Vilepagan, fellow poster. If you are going to be posting in a way that many can mistake for a moderator, as Moderate did, perhaps you should use an identifyer, you know, a little symbol to let us know which hat you are wearing. You seem to change hats after the fact according to how your post is received.

This is all Soooooooooo God Damned silly.
When the time comes to get actual accredited college points
for substantial postings of merit,round dis pop stand,then maybe
I'll consider.
Geez Louise...One don't even have the opportuinity to win a
cruddy cottage ham,around hears.

MeskDXB
09-06-2007, 10:35 PM
Maybe this thread should be called "Lies about Liberals". All this is, is just spin...

Napsterbater
09-06-2007, 10:42 PM
This is all Soooooooooo God Damned silly.
When the time comes to get actual accredited college points
for substantial postings of merit,round dis pop stand,then maybe
I'll consider.
Geez Louise...One don't even have the opportuinity to win a
cruddy cottage ham,around hears.
We did have a contest once, but the only prize given out was gold membership, which has hence been heavily devalued by Borg's penchant for giving it away to hot posters.

BorgHunter
09-06-2007, 11:58 PM
We did have a contest once, but the only prize given out was gold membership, which has hence been heavily devalued by Borg's penchant for giving it away to hot posters.
Hyperbole, hyperbole.

Napsterbater
09-07-2007, 12:02 AM
"Hey babe, wanna see my gold member section?"

Decka
09-07-2007, 01:18 AM
LMAO... what a pick-up line

paulc
09-07-2007, 07:05 AM
LiquidFork,in post 1 your comparing right with left,or liberals as you guys like to say,but theres a point here that you seem to be overlooking.
Its the right wing influence outside and within the United States Republican Party that has the US in the situation it finds itself in today.

OldPhart
09-07-2007, 07:16 AM
LiquidFork,in post 1 your comparing right with left,or liberals as you guys like to say,but theres a point here that you seem to be overlooking.
Its the right wing influence outside and within the United States Republican Party that has the US in the situation it finds itself in today.

And it's the left wing influence that finds much of europe in it's respective situation today.

paulc
09-07-2007, 07:22 AM
What ya mean the free healthcare, free education,good welfare programmes,that sort of thing,yea its a bummer.

OldPhart
09-07-2007, 07:37 AM
I'll stay here... thanks anyways.

ROFL

paulc
09-07-2007, 07:42 AM
Yeah,so would I haha

REDWHITEBLUE2
09-09-2007, 12:21 AM
It seems LIBERALS just can't Handle the TRUTH :lolhit:

Frogger
09-09-2007, 04:25 AM
What ya mean the free healthcare, free education,good welfare programmes,that sort of thing,yea its a bummer.

Uh, Paul. The United States has free, universal education and welfare. As for the free health care, are you talking about the free health care where cancer patients have to wait years before being treated or in some cases before even being seen by a competent doctor? Are you talking about the free health care that is so poor that those who could get treatment for nothing flock to the United States for operations? You also seem to be laboring under the misconception that Americans who do not have free health care cannot get free treatment if they need it. That simply isn't so. No American who needs health care is denied it. There are free clinics everywhere and those who have health care or have the money pay a surcharge every time they go to hospital so that those who do not have health care and who cannot afford it are taken care of also.

sedan
09-09-2007, 06:01 AM
You also seem to be laboring under the misconception that Americans who do not have free health care cannot get free treatment if they need it. That simply isn't so. No American who needs health care is denied it. There are free clinics everywhere and those who have health care or have the money pay a surcharge every time they go to hospital so that those who do not have health care and who cannot afford it are taken care of also.Half of the people who file for bankruptcy (http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1) in the US do so for medical reasons. While no one can be denied treatment at an emergency room that doesn't mean they don't get billed. More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm) because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care.

Frogger
09-09-2007, 06:28 AM
Statistics can say whatever you want them to say, Sedan.

18,000 sounds like a large number until you take it as part of the whole. It represents about .06% of the uninsured and about .005% of the total U.S. population.

Some people with diabetes and high blood pressure would die even if they had health insurance as would almost all of the people who die of HIV/AIDS.

17,100 Americans died of HIV/AIDS in 2005. They would have died with or without health insurance.

Sort of puts the 18,000 number in perspective.

Probably no more than .001% of the uninsureds death is in any way related to the fact that they don't have health insurance.

The majority of people who die from high blood pressure and diabetes are the elderly and they are all covered by Medicare.

You also have to factor in why some people don't have health insurance. Many young people don't have health insurance because they feel they won't get sick and they would rather spend their money on other things. People don't have health insurance because they recently changed jobs and their new insurance hasn't kicked in yet.

sedan
09-09-2007, 06:37 AM
Statistics can say whatever you want them to say, Sedan.The reason I quoted the statistic is because in your previous post you said that "no American who needs health care is denied it".

Clearly, at least 18,000 per year are.

Frogger
09-09-2007, 06:38 AM
Where did the article say they were denied health care?

dharmabum
09-09-2007, 08:39 AM
That is the fundamental difference Sedan.

Conservatives think it is O.K. for Americans to go bankrupt getting necessary medical care.

Liberals do not think it is morally right for Americans to have to go bankrupt to get necessary medical care.

It is a moral issue, which is why Conservatives just do not understand it.

Frogger
09-09-2007, 10:53 AM
Ignoring Dharmabum and getting back to Sedan, you cannot say that at least 18,000 a year are denied health care by using your statistics. Of the 18,000 who died without health care how many were denied that health care, how many opted not to have it, how many were simply between jobs that provided health care when they contracted their illness? If you are going to use statistics you need to be more specific about them and not use them as generalities.

sedan
09-09-2007, 11:06 AM
Ignoring Dharmabum and getting back to Sedan, you cannot say that at least 18,000 a year are denied health care by using your statistics. Of the 18,000 who died without health care how many were denied that health care, how many opted not to have it, how many were simply between jobs that provided health care when they contracted their illness? If you are going to use statistics you need to be more specific about them and not use them as generalities.The statistic was intended to illustrate a point.

You were painting a rosy picture for paul -- that everyone 'is taken care of' in America.

That simply isn't the case.

Frogger
09-09-2007, 11:10 AM
I said the people in need of medical care are not denied it and I stand by that statement.
Every time I go to the hospital for something I pay a surcharge to take care of the cost of treating people who have no health care and who cannot afford the hospital costs.

If people go bancrupt because they choose to not pay for health care that is sad but it is not a tragedy of my causing. The time to get health care is before you get ill because most policies will not cover a preexisting condition.

paulc
09-09-2007, 02:02 PM
I dont understand onepoint here. If Americans are able to get healthcare if they NEED it,then why do they pay Insurance every month.
As for EU,sure in some countrys there are big problems with waiting times for operations and such,tho this year Ive heard of people travelling from region to region or country to country where waiting lists for certain treatment wouldnt be as long as elsewhere.
The only EU citizens I hear of who go to the US for medical treatment are football stars who earn around $200,000 per week.

mikezila
09-09-2007, 02:08 PM
why have collision coverage on a car that's paid for and you can afford to replace?

paulc
09-09-2007, 02:30 PM
Dont know,maybe in America you can insure your car only,but you cant in Europe,you must insure the occupants.

mikezila
09-09-2007, 02:52 PM
no, it's an add on to basic liability...commonly referred to as PL/PD. almost all states require personal liability/property damage to get a license plate, while collision and comprehensive is only required as condition to a loan.

paulc
09-09-2007, 03:17 PM
Well when in America then.
To drive a car in the EU it is compulsary to have third party insurance,which covers your passengers and anyone in the other vehicle.

mikezila
09-09-2007, 03:21 PM
yeah...that's the personal liability part.

Frogger
09-09-2007, 05:02 PM
Paul,

Health insurance coverage allows you to have elective surgery, get prescription drugs cheaper, pay less for doctor visits, etc.

When I had foot surgery it was covered by my health insurance even though it was not necessary to save my life. When I had back pains and went to a chiropractor twice a week for a month it was covered. When I purchase my prescription medications I pay only between ten and forty dollars for a three month supply for something that would cost many hundreds or even a thousand dollars without my health insurance. When I go to the eye doctor, or my endocrynologist, or nephrologist, or internists, or cardiologist, or urologist, or even my dietician, (yes I have a lot of doctors) I pay only eighteen dollars for the visit.

I know people who do not carry health insurance. They feel they are healthy and think they will remain healthy until they are sixty five and Medicare kicks in and takes care of most of their medical bills.

paulc
09-09-2007, 05:06 PM
What about people,many millions of Americans no doubt,who work in low paid jobs and cant afford insurance,what happens to them.
Im thinking here of maybe single parents raising a couple of kids,working in a shit job cause they're partner fucked off to Hawaii,you know what I mean.

Frogger
09-09-2007, 05:14 PM
If they need an operation they will get it. If they only want an elective operation chances are they will be shit outta luck although even that isn't always the case.

Of course the very poor will be taken care of by the government, ie. the rest of us.

Paul, here is an essay illustrating some of the problems with national health care. I understand the wait to see an oncologist in Great Britain is even greater than in Canada, sometimes up to four years.

Far from (the) nirvana (f your essay,) I found people struggling to get basic health care--since practically every surgical and diagnostic test required some type of waiting. The stories I encountered were moving: a man waiting two years for a referral to a pain clinic; a woman with sleep apnea forced to wait three years for a sleep study; a professor--barely able to walk because of a spinal condition--told to wait six months for an MRI. The professor, by the way, was my father. Government statistics detail other shortages: Some 1.4 million Canadians in Ontario alone who are actively looking can't find a family doctor.

If you want to read the rest of the article here is the URL.http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w070416&s=cohngratzer041607

mikezila
09-09-2007, 05:17 PM
What about people,many millions of Americans no doubt,who work in low paid jobs and cant afford insurance,what happens to them.
Im thinking here of maybe single parents raising a couple of kids,working in a shit job cause they're partner fucked off to Hawaii,you know what I mean.
what's going to happen to those working poor when they have to pay 1/2 their income in taxes to support universal health care because somebody's grandma had a 3 pack habit for 50 years?

"free health care" isn't free, it's one of the reasons you're paying $7 for a gallon of petrol.

paulc
09-09-2007, 05:22 PM
Free healthcare is a term of speech,as you know.
Nothing is free in this world,what we do is,as you said,pay for it thru or taxes.
As for grandma on 60 a day,the amount of tax shes paid over the years has more than paid for any treatment she now requires.

mikezila
09-09-2007, 05:29 PM
Free healthcare is a term of speech,as you know.
Nothing is free in this world,what we do is,as you said,pay for it thru or taxes.
As for grandma on 60 a day,the amount of tax shes paid over the years has more than paid for any treatment she now requires.
good luck, even if the money hadn't been spent, the 15 cents a day she had paid in isn't going to make a huge dent in the $5,000 a day ICU bed.

paulc
09-09-2007, 05:37 PM
No,not at 5 cents on the packet your right.Here we pay about $7 on a packet in tax,add all them packets over a lifetime to all the other taxes paid and the Government are well ahead.

mikezila
09-09-2007, 06:24 PM
in 50 years, that $7 will have the buying power of a nickel.

paulc
09-10-2007, 01:12 AM
in 50 years, that $7 will have the buying power of a nickel.Sure it will,thats why I included 'with all they're other taxes'.

MrCooper
09-10-2007, 06:49 AM
Quality over quantity. Make it a top 10 list and maybe you will have something solid.