...I mean if ya could afford a really GOOD lawyer???

;)

The 11th commandment....ALWAYS KEEP THY RELIGION TO THYSELF!!!!!

Odder uttered an oxymoron. Good lawyer?? Egads! 100 buried to their necks in sand is but a start.

There are no loop holes around God.

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The Bible is not God. The Bible is a book written ages ago by a human being and translated countless times.

By many human beings.

And that is precisely what makes this book quite unique and valuable. Just - you do not have to beleive verything that is written inside.

believing for yourself is important, yes, but where will people learn the morals the ten commandments convey if you remove the bible as a source of wisdom?

Originally posted by MajiPirate
believing for yourself is important, yes, but where will people learn the morals the ten commandments convey if you remove the bible as a source of wisdom?
You assume that without religion, people have no morals. I have no religion, as I am an atheist, but I have plenty of morals. I don't steal, in any sense of the word, nor do I lie other than the little lies we all utter (Yes, Billy, Santa does fly down the chimney to give you presents!), nor do I go around killing people. In fact, some of the most moral people I know are atheist or agnostic. Religion and morality do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Originally posted by MajiPirate
believing for yourself is important, yes, but where will people learn the morals the ten commandments convey if you remove the bible as a source of wisdom?

When i read that the very first thing i thought of was a post a very intelligent guy posted not to long back in response to almost an identical question/statement in another forum. It hits the nail on the head and i can't say it any better myself so i won't....i will thank Dayo for it ;)

If Moses had never come down off that mountain with stone tablets that said, "Thou shalt not kill", you would still know that killing is not a good thing. Or look at it another way; if Moses had come down with tablets that said killing is ok, screwing your neighbors wife is ok, stealing is ok...all the people would have laughed him out of the county. His so-called commandments from god were merely reenforcing what the people already knew. We atheist don't need a religion to tell us not to kill. We know it is not a good thing to do. Also, an atheist will never kill you "in the name of God." You religious guys can kill and assume that God will forgive you. We atheist know that we are on our own and no one is going to forgive us. I would feel a lot safer in the middle of an atheist convention surrounded by 10,000 atheist than I would in the middle of some religious convention. Some guy in Texas just killed and chopped up his two kids because god told him to. If god tells me to kill someone, I will hang up...it is obviously a crank call.

yes, a lot of people mix up consience with religion. there are a lot of people out there without religion, but most people without a consience wind up in jail.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
In fact, some of the most moral people I know are atheist or agnostic.

and on that same path, many of the atheists i know are also the most christian people i know.

yet, i still want to learn where you would get a concept of right and wrong without the bible. yes, you may be atheist, but who taught you what was right and wrong? were they atheist? who taught them?

Knowing right from wrong comes from being brought up that way, maybe a bit yes but i think a lot of in comes from within us. We feel pain emotional and physical therefore we are very well aware of what hurts us and know what hurts others. I think knowing right from wrong has more to do feelings then how you were brought up.

it's easy to say that sticking your hand on a burning stove is wrong: you have that instant reminder that HEY THIS IS A STUPID THING TO BE DOING!

remember how great it feels to tear someone down to make you look better? how seeing someone taken down a notch to elevate yourself is just great? how great pre-marital sex feels?

i agree that a lot of what is right and wrong comes from within us. but what is to tell us what is right and wrong if not teachings and experiences?

Right as you are born, you develop a sense of trust vs. mistrust. This can lead to the stove example: do you trust it enough to believe that it won't burn you? Most teachings come from your own meandering experiences. I see parents as only giving guidance to what's right and wrong until you experience it for yourself and learn the lesson on your own.

Without having a standard for morals (i.e. The Bible) how do you justify what is right and wrong?

If you say, "because it is for society as a whole," then what about situations that would normally be "wrong" if everyone knew what you were doing, but could be justified as "right" when no one else is around. Like messing around on your spouse, or a similar situation.

What use are morals if there is no basis of right and wrong?

Originally posted by MajiPirate
it's easy to say that sticking your hand on a burning stove is wrong: you have that instant reminder that HEY THIS IS A STUPID THING TO BE DOING!

remember how great it feels to tear someone down to make you look better? how seeing someone taken down a notch to elevate yourself is just great? how great pre-marital sex feels?

i agree that a lot of what is right and wrong comes from within us. but what is to tell us what is right and wrong if not teachings and experiences?

I see what you are saying but does that mean people that do that do not know it is wrong? Of course they know its wrong they ust chose to do it anyway.

Originally posted by twallace
Without having a standard for morals (i.e. The Bible) how do you justify what is right and wrong?

If you say, "because it is for society as a whole," then what about situations that would normally be "wrong" if everyone knew what you were doing, but could be justified as "right" when no one else is around. Like messing around on your spouse, or a similar situation.

What use are morals if there is no basis of right and wrong?

Again you know something is wrong but you chose to do it anyway. When you cheat on your spouse and you get caught and having a million I'm sorry's coming out of your mouth, so obviously you know its wrong or you would not be saying sorry to begin with. It you really believe it is right then your not going to apoligize for it. Bottom line is just because you know its wrong does not mean you won't do it.

Call them ethics, or call them morals, if they're not taught, then they're never known.

Some married couples go out with others all the time, they agree and don't mind, whats the big deal. Morals thats the question? who's moral guide line do we go by, Christian, Pagan, Atheist?

Originally posted by mad dog
Some married couples go out with others all the time, they agree and don't mind, whats the big deal. Morals thats the question? who's moral guide line do we go by, Christian, Pagan, Atheist?

I agree with you. I myself don't go by morals set by anyone/anything other then myslef. I do what i know i can live with.

the moral guidelines that everyone on earth follows are set by themselves. there are people who use different religions as guidelines and for suggestions, but in the end it's all internal. only you decide what's right for you.

you decide what's right for you because you believe its right for you. It may not be right for others, but are you going to let their opinion stop your beliefs? We follow different paths for a reason.

Originally posted by MajiPirate

"remember how great it feels to tear someone down to make you look better? how seeing someone taken down a notch to elevate yourself is just great? how great pre-marital sex feels? "

but then again, someone wise would consider how terrible it feels when someone tears you down to make themselves look better. and then they would think twice.

Originally posted by MajiPirate

remember how great it feels to tear someone down to make you look better? how seeing someone taken down a notch to elevate yourself is just great? how great pre-marital sex feels?



so i was saying this sarcastically, in case there was any doubt... i try not to be that heartless as to do things that hurt people to make myself.

Originally posted by silverbulletkc
you decide what's right for you because you believe its right for you. It may not be right for others, but are you going to let their opinion stop your beliefs? We follow different paths for a reason.

But how do you function as a society just by judging yourself? How can 6 billion people in the world all judge for themselves what is right or wrong at any particular moment. I'm not saying that people aren't smart enough to make decisions, what I'm saying is that everyone has varying degrees of what is right and wrong.

Some people wouldn't feel anything wrong with leaving their spouse if they were miserable, but that is a very narrow view to take on life. This is happening with a family that I'm associated with right now. The father wants to leave because he is not happy, but it is destroying his son and his wife.

If you are able to allow something outside of subjective emotions govern your morals, it can serve as a guide. It seems very self-centered to me to base my morals on my own interests alone.

You can disobey the ten commandments all you want, God won't stop you, he made the ten commandments as a guidline for us to follow to have an excellent life. Not for us to obey 24/7 so we're not smitten, so what if you make a few mistakes God will take care of it as long as you apoligize and let him do what he needs to do. I'm not saying it's riight to do alot of bad things, I'm just saying that you don't need loop holes to get past the ten commandments, besides there aren't any loop holes. Oh yeah one more thing, here is a creepy though, but God knew you were going to make this stupid topic on the internet when he made the ten commandments and was probably thinking about you.

Stupid? The topic is interesting and has incited some great discussion, I would hardly call it "stupid".

Originally posted by twallace
But how do you function as a society just by judging yourself? How can 6 billion people in the world all judge for themselves what is right or wrong at any particular moment. I'm not saying that people aren't smart enough to make decisions, what I'm saying is that everyone has varying degrees of what is right and wrong.

6 billion people aren't judging themselves, they collectively come up with an agreed upon system (laws) and live by them. People knew that they shouldn't kill each other before the 10 Commandments were given to Moses.

Originally posted by twallace
[Some people wouldn't feel anything wrong with leaving their spouse if they were miserable, but that is a very narrow view to take on life. This is happening with a family that I'm associated with right now. The father wants to leave because he is not happy, but it is destroying his son and his wife.

Lets say the father stays then what, he is miserable which in turn makes everyone else miserable for the next ??years. He leaves, sure everyone is upset for a time but the time will be shorter then if he stays? I know someone who went through this, they kept there marriage because of religious believe, you know what that couple hardly ever smiled and if they did smile they were never together. Sometimes in life things change, that is the way it is, no matter what we do, somethings can not be put back together.

Originally posted by ElementLight2
[B]You can disobey the te4n commandments all you want, God won't stop you, he made the ten commandments as a guidline for us to follow to have an excellent life. ]

Where is your proof, humans wrote the 10 commandments, where is your proof this is God's law?

There have been people on this planet long, LONG, before the Christian religion came that did just fine without the 10 commandments.

Laws are formed by groups of people, not by anyone religion. Our(U.S.) laws were formed from the Christian religion because that was the group that took this country over. Before we came here there was another set of laws made by the Indians and for the most part they were not much different then us, maybe more peacefull.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
6 billion people aren't judging themselves, they collectively come up with an agreed upon system (laws) and live by them. People knew that they shouldn't kill each other before the 10 Commandments were given to Moses.

The statement was made that people should do whatever they feel is right or wrong for themselves. I was just making a point that that is impossible.

We are also blessed to live in a country with a fine (although flawed at times) legal system. I know that the US and the Western World governments aren't perfect, but once again if you are talking about a system of laws to govern man, you run into some problems.

In some countries (China, etc.), they live by the rule of people and not by the rule of law. They decide which laws they will fulfill at what times depending on the situation. My case is that in countries that practice these systems you have a minority of the people in the government that control the country however they want to. If this means they kill people that they don't like, then they will. If it means that they will suppress people to obtain the desired outcome then they will.

Man's laws are subjective. I believe that that is why God put his law in place. Because it is human nature to be fickle. We change constantly. In my opinion, you can talk all day about the particulars of the ten commandments themselves, but understanding God's laws are much deeper than simply following a routine or set of instructions. I don't think God is a behavoralist. Throughout the Bible he speaks of looking at the intent of the heart - the motivation by which we live. That is why in the New Testament Jesus said that the greatest commandment was to,

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the law (meaning the entire Old Testament law, not just the 10 commandments) and the Prophets (the books of Isaiah through Malachi) hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:37-40

In other words, I think that Jesus makes it very simple that following God's law, or the Ten Commandments is not about adhearing to a set of laws as much as establishing a relationship of love for God and others.

At least that is how I see it.

Originally posted by mad dog
Where is your proof, humans wrote the 10 commandments, where is your proof this is God's law?

I believe that this question could cover an entirely new discussion because the real question is whether or not you believe that the Bible is the true spoken Word of God to humanity.

And I guess that it really gets right down to the heart of the matter. If you believe that the Bible was spoken by God to the writers of the books of the Bible, and that it was truly "God breathed," (see 2Timothy 3:16) then you know that the ideas of finding "loopholes" in the Ten Commandments is a moot issue, not to mention dangerous. lol

However, if you question the validity of Scripture, and I know many of you in the discussion do, then the ten commandments are worthless in any sense of judgement. They just serve as a nice guideling on how to get along with people. More specifically, you'd be referring to the last 5 or 6 that deal with man's behavior to another man. (Thou shalt not steal, kill, honor your father and mother, etc.)

For years, no, centuries, the burden of proof was on the non-Christian world to prove that the Bible wasn't sent from God. Since the Enlightenment a lot has changed. As we have made great strides in science and technology, we have questioned everything that we used to take for granted. I think that that is a GOOD thing. It has put the burden of proof on the church to say that the Bible is what it says it is.

Without going into great detail, I'd like to recommend a book for anyone that has an honest interest in investigating whether or not the Bible is really God's word. It is called "The New Evidence that Demmands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. You can probably get it online at Amazon.com or something (I'm not getting any money for endorsement or anything hehe...). But he makes the case about evidence that archeologists have found describing sites mentioned in the Bible (the City of Jericho for example). He also brings up the textual reliability for classical literature argument (basically stating that if you look at the records of any other piece of classical literature i.e. Homer's Odessy, etc., versus the New Testament you'll find more copies written closer to the actual date of the event than any other classical work. It is important to note that this argument is of great importance because it happen historically before the Church was a political power.)

Anyway, maddog, I think that your question is valid, but I would encourge a throrough investigation. I believe in the Bible because I have checked it out.

I would be willing to speak more in-depth with anyone who would care to, I just don't want to take up any more space than I already have.

I have been studying the Bible or atleast whether it is true or not. The Bible may be a GOOD book but I have found certain things that just don't click. I don't know if it will ever be proven false, the same as I don't know if it can be proven true.

Has God talked to animals, they don't seem to kill anymore then we do? In fact we are probably worse then some animals, atleast when they kill it is for food, territory, threat, etc... We have killed beause of looks, religion, etc... We have killed because someone thousands of miles away would not believe in our believes, I'm talking about the Roman Catholic's with there pushing Christianity. Did God tell them to kill the tribes in Ireland because the trible people thought different? Did God tell the folks of Salomn Mass. to kill Indians and red headed women. The commandments have served a purpose, BOTH good and bad.

The truth of the matter is there were people living, sharing, loving, and getting along just fine before the Bible came along. The commandments might have helped lost Christians but as far as it helping the WHOLE human race, that is just not true. Sorry to sound negative, but there are ALOT of different folks in this world and alot of them have never even seen the commandments, or know nothing about the Bible.

No, I don't think that you sound negative, I encourage people to seek the truth. I think that the difference between us is that I believe that there is one truth and that is found in the Bible. I know that that makes me sound intolerant and bias, but for me to say that I believe in the Bible, then I must take that stand.

As for the Roman Catholic Church killing people and basically being a political power for centuries, I don't think that that was God's will or desire. The problem is that for many years the Church as a whole has tried to come off with this facade of perfection, and that is just not true. The truth is that the church has failed to do its job for years. We have misinterpreted the Bible for unjust gain and unjust motives. That is wrong, and I believe that there will be a day of reckoning because of it.

I am here today not to try to wipe the church's past under the rug so to speak, I am here to try and say, "IMO this is what I understand the Bible to say." The church for too long has just taken the easy way out and failed to look at the complexity of human life and questions about how we came to be here. I have come from a very Fundamental Christian past, and although I agree with the truth of much of what they had to say, much of it didn't seem to make sense.

For me the foundational truth is that God is real and that the Bible is his Word to us as humanity, and instead of trying to read into it and make it say what I want it to, then I need to try and figure out what God intended to say originally. The problem is that there are some things that make us uncomfortable, there are some things that I don't understand. That is also why I'm not done examining it yet.

The one thing that I know for sure is that God has a real problem with people who say that they love him and serve him, and then act as if He didn't exsist. I think that that would go back to the whole, "Don't use my name in vain commandement," if you know what I mean...

If you believe in God why do you have to believe in the Bible. What makes the Bible the FULL truth? I would say some of the story's hold truth, others were just "icing on the cake" so to speak. Did Mosses really talk to GOD, I don't think so, I am even doubting that Mosses ever existed. Did Jacob wrestle with God or an angle, doubt it, he may have wrestled with his own thoughts, but not God. The Bible was written by humans, they needed people to follow there beliefs, and to get power(people) they spiced things up a little. From what I have learned the Bible is not all truth one can learn from it, but at the same time you have to take a hard look at what is true, what is twisted, and what was put there for entertainment. One example would be Noah's Ark was there an Ark, probably, did it save all the animals NO. Did it save certain animals in a certain area, more then likely. See the story could be true but the way it has been interpreted through the years makes it unbelievable.

I would define "truth" as a fact that can be backed up with proof. The bible in my mind can't be considered the truth because there's no proof that it's the truth. Rather it's something Christians believe to be the truth.

Your definition of truth is what blinds you from the real truth. A christian life is not based on facts or evidence, it is based on faith and love.

But that's exactly what I'm saying - it's completely based on faith and belief. But everyone keeps trying to prove it!

The reason for people trying to prove that God exists, is so those who base their lives on evidence alone can actually believe in God.

But you're never going to come up with enough evidence to make those people happy. If I based my belief in God on evidence I wouldn't believe either.

Humans are always trying things in ways that are futile, but this is caused by the only ignorance that I do believe in. There is no such thing as can't.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I would define "truth" as a fact that can be backed up with proof. The bible in my mind can't be considered the truth because there's no proof that it's the truth. Rather it's something Christians believe to be the truth.

What kind of proof are you looking for particularly? If you could find Archeological proof that some of the stories of the Bible were true, would you believe at that point?

How much evidence is enough? I believe in the Bible because of the proof that I have that God is real and that the Bible is His spoken word to Humanity.

Take a passage in the book of Isaiah for example, the prophet Isaiah refers to a ruler named Cyrus that would overthrow the kingdom of the Babylonians years before it actually happened.

Jesus is a known historical figure, and besides the prophecy fulfilling the virgin birth (which I'm sure if you don't believe in the acurracy of the Bible itself, then you won't believe in Jesus' virgin birth), the account of Jesus fulfills over 60 prophecies from the Old Testament. These accounts of the gospel were written by people that were close to him, people that would have known the most about his life. The simple probability of one person fulfilling all of these prophesies is too great to be random. For instance, a person could "choose" to fulfill some of those prophesies, but couldn't choose where he was born or how he was going to die.

I think that the Bible speaks for itself. I think that the major question is when studying Scripture is if you are going to be objective about it or try to "read in" proof or disproof.

I'm not saying that you have done either, but I believe in it based on what I have studied and not just personal "belief."

Originally posted by twallace
What kind of proof are you looking for particularly? If you could find Archeological proof that some of the stories of the Bible were true, would you believe at that point?

For proof, I would want physical evidence of the miracles. A picture of the burning bush, evidence of virgin birth, a picture of the parted Red Sea, stuff like that. Not that I honestly expect such proof to exist. The thing is, I believe in the miracles, I believe in the virgin birth. I'm just saying you can't prove it. And I don't think archilogical proof of the existance of some of the background information in the Bible proves that the core story of the Bible - God and Jesus - really happened. Again, it's called a faith for a reason.

I understand what you mean, because we aren't going to find those specific evidences of proof. I think the best that we would have to hope for would be current miracles, i.e. someone without a leg that grew one or something like that.

Although I still can't say that I have blind faith, I believe in the Bible because it seems to explain life and purpose to me. I believe that the Bible is what it says it is, but still that is faith. That is part of what being a Christian is.

Let me ask a question though, if you could see miracles happen, and I mean things that could in no way happen normally, would that convince you to believe? I'm just curious.

if you wnt to get into it, i think miracles happen everyday that people today chalk up to such things as science or fate. it is possible that god uses doctors to perform miracles- restoring a blind person's sight, etc.

i would agree with that

Originally posted by twallace
Let me ask a question though, if you could see miracles happen, and I mean things that could in no way happen normally, would that convince you to believe? I'm just curious.

Hard to say for sure, but I think if I witnessed it personally I'd be more likely to believe. But I also agree with MajiPirate, there are lots of miracles every day that people don't necessarily see. Part of the reason I believe in God is because of the many extremely unlikely events in my life that have led me to where I am today. Of course one could just as easily call it coincidence, but I choose to call it God's will.