I was wondering what are your opinions on the pledge of allegiance of the United States?

Well, it certainly shouldn't be mandatory to say for school kids, if that's what you mean. And if you're talking about "Under God", that should be taken out, in fact we had a thread about that not too long ago.

I think it is wrong to take the pledge of allegaince out of schools altogether. No one makes kids say it, but the can if they want. Under God is the most harmless thing in the world, yet to to the secularist it is the end of the world.

Do not take it out of schools. Kids need to learn the Pledge, as well as the words to our National Anthem and other traditionally patriotic songs about this great country of ours.

Do they? It is really the government's right to make kids patriotic (this could be called "propagandizing"), or is it their parents'? What if the parents don't want their kids to like this country? It's perfectly legal to hate this country, if they so desire, it's just not legal to bomb buildings because of it. And besides which, it's ultimately the parents' job to ensure their kids know the Pledge and whatnot if that's what they want, not the schools'.

These works are part of schooling, as much as reading classics, learning algebra, or music classes. If you take the time to learn to play an instrument, most likely you started playing it in school. Marching bands all learn these songs. It is part of what we do in this country. No, it's not forcing patriotism. It is not brainwashing. If youi're going to live here as an American, then you're going to learn a variety of things about our culture. The Pledge, and these works of music are important parts of that culture.

When you put it that way, it does make sense. Though it should be restricted to Social Studies/American History class.

Well, it's kinda MEANINGLESS anywayz, like Truman's "loyalty oaths" which are now long gone...

I mean, think about it... the way they did the pledge back when I wuz a kid in the Mesozoic Era, is ta put yer right hand over yer heart... leaving the OTHER hand free ta cross it's fingers behind yer back... I guess it'd be possible ta fib just alittlebit anywayz...
So, if ya want folks ta love and be loyal ta their country, there's only one EFFECTIVE way ta do it... treat 'em as if they are valued citizens...

Anywayz, thanks fer listenin' ta my point of... few... :)

After teaching for decades, and watching kids say the pledge every day, - I have yet to find one, one, one student in the Junior High School who could translate the meaning of the pledge. Nary a one. Stop adults and ask them to put the words into plain talk. Then cry. Also....the "under God" phrase was put in by Eisenhower in an attempt to show how anti communist the US was. Ridiculous. The pledge is a statement of loyalt to a nation, not a relgious affirmation.

About the "under god" thing, there's a lot of peer pressure going on. in schools where the majority of students are christian, if anyone notices the atheist kid not saying "under god", then anyone who's ever attended school can guess what's going to happen to that kid.
also, the pledge of allegiance, i believe, is a rather empty patriotic activity. voting, reading the newspaper, keeping up on the issues and actually thinking for yourself is much more important.

if one of your main goals in life is to remove god from the public view, you better re evaluate what your life is all about.

please do explain yourself, travh. i'm afraid that your one sentence anecdotes arent' really giving me a good view of what's going on in that brain of yours.

I am refering to the secularists "crusade" against god and christianty. They go out of their way to seek out and destroy any hint of god, all under the phony banner of "seperation of church and state" a phrase that appears nowhere in the US Constitution in any form.

Well, gee, Trav, I haven't noticed any secularists or LEFTWING religious folks burnin' down any churches... (Considerin' WHOSE churches tend ta git burned down, that seems a safe enuff assumption, don'tcha think???)

I wonder what's... cookin'... on the rightwing side of the Bible-thumpin' world??? And do the KKK still carry a... torch... fer Jesus???

Just wonderin', since ya seem so... concerned... about God's presence bein' extinguished from our society...

Thanks fer yer thoughts!!!

why do people like you always say that christians cram their religion down your throat, when was the last time a christian tried to convert you from athiesm? Christians do not care if you are an athiest you asshole, but you sure seem to care if people are christians. and if you dont see secularists destroying christian symbols you are one blind son of a bitch. I guess the 10 commandments story, and the crosses being torn down, and the word under god being removed with scissors from banners just dont register to you. You are so two faced it is sad. You use the KKK as the basis for all christianity, but when someone says islam blew up those buildings you get all pissed and say not to judge the whole religion of the actions of a few. Your ideas are hypocritical and contradictory, and no matter how clever you try to be, your ideas will always fall apart when analyzed.

"why do people like you always say that christians cram their religion down your throat, when was the last time a christian tried to convert you from athiesm?"
well, yesterday, actually....
and then a few years ago someone tried to convert me from atheism by giving me a punch in the nose...
and then there was that time when my friends parents wouldnt let me into their house for being an atheist...
and then there was that time....

Did they get their message across?

Originally posted by sputnik
"why do people like you always say that christians cram their religion down your throat, when was the last time a christian tried to convert you from athiesm?"
well, yesterday, actually....
and then a few years ago someone tried to convert me from atheism by giving me a punch in the nose...
and then there was that time when my friends parents wouldnt let me into their house for being an atheist...
and then there was that time....

Beak out the violins, I think I am going to cry. Look man, No one is forcing you to be a christian, but there are plenty trying to force christians into seclusion, by removing any symbol of their faith from public at all costs. No one is forcing anyone to go to church, so just shut your yap, you know damn good and well no one is trying to forcibly convert you, no one is installiong crosses on your house.

No one is tearing down churches, either, Trav. No one is tearing down the giant cross in your lawn, the Jesus fish on your car, or the cross charm on your necklace. Wear a "REPENT OR GO TO HELL" shirt for all I care, that's your right. If anything, atheists are being repressed, especially in schools where some principals force you to cover up "controversial" messages. Ever heard of Boyd County and their GSA (Gay-Straight Alliance)? They are fighting a court battle trying to ban the GSA from meeting, despite a law saying that if a school allows one club, all must be allowed. How are Christians being oppressed there? No one is banning you from church or yelling "GOD WILL KILL ALL SINNERS" from the street corners, in fact Christians have many special rights, so I'd try to law low and quit while you're ahead, or you may find that your special rights will be fought more and more vehemently.

ya, poor gays are oppresed, whatever go cry me a river. Gays are the sacred cows, schools and governments go crazy to make them happy. I cant believe you think schools ae trying to wipe out gays from schools, I gues you are not reading the news.

Ok, so here's my side...

Keep the pledge in schools. For one day, have everyone in the class say it the way it should be (with "under God" in it), and if there are people who feel uncomfortable saying the "under God" part, or just feel uncomfortable to saying the pledge all together, then give them the option to not say it and just move on. That way, those who do say it aren't under pressure for making people say it, and those that don't recite the pledge aren't feeling pressured. I'm tired of everything involving "God" being ridiculed by those who don't believe...or at least being questioned. We've never had a problem with the pledge in the past (as far as I know)...so why is it a problem now? And why can't we keep our own damn religions and beliefs to ourselves?

Originally posted by Travh20
ya, poor gays are oppresed, whatever go cry me a river. Gays are the sacred cows, schools and governments go crazy to make them happy. I cant believe you think schools ae trying to wipe out gays from schools, I gues you are not reading the news.
No marriage, no adoptions, you can legally be fired just for being gay...

So what?
You can be fired just for being old, too! Eventually, most everybody gets old, even G&L, given that the life expectancy keeps rising. Why should G&L get any kind of special treatment? They're not handicapped, nor a racial minority.

Originally posted by es347fan
So what?
You can be fired just for being old, too! Eventually, most everybody gets old, even G&L, given that the life expectancy keeps rising. Why should G&L get any kind of special treatment? They're not handicapped, nor a racial minority.

No, there's a federal law against discriminating against older people in the workplace. I believe it's called the Age Discrimination in Employment Act or something like that.

Originally posted by silverbulletkc
Ok, so here's my side...

Keep the pledge in schools. ....... And why can't we keep our own damn religions and beliefs to ourselves?

Excellent question!!

Why CAN'T you keep your ""own damn religions and beliefs"" to yourselves and leave those of us who do not share your views out of it?

I for one do not want to repeat your little "pledge" and I do not want my child in the PUBLIC school to be pressured or forced into repeating it.

Of course, brainwashing all the children into being just as religious [read: superstitious] and nationalistic [IOW, just as ignorant] as the previous generation(s) is what the entire SCAM known as "America" is built upon.

Originally posted by Freethinker



I for one do not want to repeat your little "pledge" and I do not want my child in the PUBLIC school to be pressured or forced into repeating it.

Of course, brainwashing all the children into being just as religious [read: superstitious] and nationalistic [IOW, just as ignorant] as the previous generation(s) is what the entire SCAM known as "America" is built upon. Are you old enough that you can keep your wants from hurting you? No one gets everything they want in this life.

And since you seem to feel so negatively towards this country, why dont you just remove yourself from the equation? Simply put, why dont you just get the f#ck out? Go find a country that will suit your ideals.

The idea of morals that do not bend to accomidate the perversion of the day scare the perverted left who want to abolish any influence religion may have on any aspect of public life. Those morals that have guided human kind through thousands of years do nothing but get in the way of their vision of the future, where they would dictate to all what is right and wrong, and what is good and bad. It is a blatent challenge to the order of things, wraped in a very thin veil of protecting Americans rights to not have religion "forced down their throat", while all the while religious people are having athiesm crammed down their throat at a fast, almost overwhelming pace.

People such as frethinker, who think patriotism is for brainwashed idiots, dont realize that in their attempt to seem so informed and on such a higher level than the "patriotic proles" have no idea how much their thinking is easily leading them in the direction of dictatorship. The attempt to make patriotism unfasionable is the second step to bringing down the country. Patriots, along with religion, are the only thing standing in the way of the America haters who want a world government, so our boys can be tried in Belgian courts by african judges.

I think i will conduct a little experiment. if i can find a white t-shirt, i am going to write "atheist" on it in big letters, wear it on the subway and walk around my neighborhood wearing it. when i find a good day to conduct this experiment, i'll get back to you guys with the results.

Originally posted by HaVoK
No one gets everything they want in this life.

True. True.

But the homophobes, the rednecks, the Religious Right, the warmongers, the racists and the militarists are currently getting almost everything they want out of life, thanks to the ultra-Conservatives in control of the country at present.

(sigh) Now, if only the totalitarianists in charge could somehow find a way to force all women to stay pregnant and barefoot, to jail anyone who doesn't pray to the "right" gawd, and require every person to own and carry an assault weapon at all times, they could have themselves a perfect 'lil society.

Originally posted by HaVoKAnd since you seem to feel so negatively towards this country, why dont you just remove yourself from the equation? Simply put, why dont you just get the f#ck out?

Oh, what pain you must be in. I guess I should just leave "your" country forever. I realize how excruciating it must be for you, how much it must chap your @ss that a tiny handful of evil Leftwingers still live here and that they refuse to fall in line with the God-Guns-and-Guts mindset that the sheeplike electorate are continuously indoctrinated with.



;) ;)

"when was the last time a christian tried to convert you from athiesm?"
-------------------------------------------
Well, not that long ago, Trav... Ever hear of Jehovah's Witnesses??? Every time they knock on the door, I wanna tell 'em ta go pray in traffic... :)

Now, I'm not sure why it's so very important ta so many rightwingers that prayin' be allowed in schools, but maybe it's 'cuz they're all justalittle bit too busy ta do it in their CHURCHES on Sundays??? Just a thought...

Trav, if you want anyone ta take yer arguments seriously, maybe mellow up a bit, be polite, and focus yer thoughts a little more... I WANT ta hear ya, but, sir, ya use language almost as bad as the women I used ta know in the military... ;)

Thanks fer chattin'...

Originally posted by Freethinker




Oh, what pain you must be in. I guess I should just leave "your" country forever. I realize how excruciating it must be for you, how much it must chap your @ss that a tiny handful of evil Leftwingers still live here and that they refuse to fall in line with the God-Guns-and-Guts mindset that the sheeplike electorate are continuously indoctrinated with.



;) ;) Im not the one sitting on my ass bitching and moaning about what a bad country this is. Were I unhappy with our country as your last post made it seem you are, i would do something about it.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Im not the one sitting on my ass bitching and moaning about what a bad country this is. Were I unhappy with our country as your last post made it seem you are, i would do something about it.

Of course YOU do not complain...........because you are part of the majority who is very much in FAVOR of the current ultra-Rightwing Conserva-Fascism that is in complete control of the country.

You'd "do something about it" you say.

What ? Move out of the country of your birth and begin anew in a far away country?

That IS appealing, but in the final analysis it will do nothing to divert this country from the despicable and inhuman course it is setting itself upon.

Neither will my complaining about it......but although I cannot change the course of this country I can at least CALL ATTENTION to the horrendous abuses of power being perpetrated, with, I might add, the willing complicity of around 50 million of the gullible citizenry.

Originally posted by Freethinker
with, I might add, the willing complicity of around 50 million of the gullible citizenry.

Shut the f#*@ up! Do you want to have a reasonable conversation or just fling sh*t around? I voted for Bush and I knew exactly what I was getting into. I'm not any more gullible than you are.

Your all very bad men.... very, very, very, bad.

Freebaser here is a song for you, I thought the only one that deserved it was Willow but you have earned your wings.... There comming to take me away oh oh ha ha. there comming to take me away oh oh ha ha he he. there comming to take me away to the funny farm where life is beautifull all day long there comming to take me away.

Originally posted by mad dog
Your all very bad men.... very, very, very, bad.

Freebaser here is a song for you, I thought the only one that deserved it was Willow but you have earned your wings.... There comming to take me away oh oh ha ha. there comming to take me away oh oh ha ha he he. there comming to take me away to the funny farm where life is beautifull all day long there comming to take me away. Freebaser.....LMAO. Earned his/her wings.......HAHAHAHAHAH

Er - as a very naive forigner, there is something i just do not understand.

Why should there be a link between patriotism and religion ? With the exception of Vatican, I do not really see the point.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Why should there be a link between patriotism and religion ? With the exception of Vatican, I do not really see the point.

Conservatives tend to be more religious and at least see themselves as more patriotic, hence the usual link between the two.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Shut the f#*@ up! Do you want to have a reasonable conversation or just fling sh*t around? I voted for Bush and I knew exactly what I was getting into.

I am willing to have a reasonable discussion.

You say that you "knew what you were getting into" in voting for Bush.

Do you mean to tell me that you KNEW that Bush would turn this country's economy from a huge surplus into a huge deficit ---to the tune of around an 11 Trillion dollar turnaround in three years--- and that you voted for him anyway??

Do you mean to tell me that you KNEW that he'd make this country the laughingstock of the civilized world, ridiculed and despised universally throughout the globe, and that he'd use lies and subterfuge to drag this nation into an ill-advised and illegal war, and that he'd take 87 billion dollars from the taxpayers to "rebuild" a country that he'd just bombed to rubble, and that you voted for him anyway??

Do you mean to tell me that you KNEW that Bush would preside over an era of unprecedented fiscal and corporate irresponsibility.....that he'd wage the most sustained assault on progressive taxation ever........that he'd pass a greater financial burden onto future generations than any previous administration in history......that he would spur his party to heretofore unseen depths of Corporate cronyism.....that he'd place America in greater peril, with more sworn enemies and fewer friends, than any time since the darkest moments of the Cold War.........and you voted for him anyway?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

'Scuse me pal, but that seems a mite gullible to me.

I knew I was voting for someone that wouldn't run and hide when the country was in danger. I knew I was voting for someone that wouldn't hike my taxes through the roof in order to support people who refuse to take responsibility for their lives. I knew I was voting for someone that wouldn't blame corporations for the irrisponsible actions of people that think McDonald's should watch their wasteline for them. I knew I was voting for someone that could keep his willie in his pants. I knew I was voting for someone that would actually rebuild a country instead of running at the first sign of something going wrong and letting it descend into chaos.

And yes, I knew I was getting someone that has his nose up the butt of the conservative christian types that would like to invade my bedroom to see what I'm doing, but it was and is better than the alternative. Life with Al Gore.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I knew I was voting for someone that wouldn't run and hide when the country was in danger.

LOL.

Running and hiding while the country was in danger is exactly what Bush DID do when the terrorist attacks occurred.

Evidently, you know nothing of Bush's scurrying off to Offutt Air Force base to hide in a deep fortified hole in the ground.

It was in all the newspapaers and on TV. Shame you missed it.

Originally posted by LionelHutz I knew I was voting for someone that could keep his willie in his pants.

Oh yes.

And we all know how terribly, terribly important that is to the well being of the nation.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

freethinker, you are nothing but scum, quit regurgitating your stupid leftist propaganda and shut yer pie hole. everything you say is straight out of Terry mcaullifes playbook, just shut up we are sick of your crap.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Conservatives tend to be more religious and at least see themselves as more patriotic, hence the usual link between the two.

Ok. That is a correlation, not a causal link. In fact you have to admit that atheist or non christian people can be very good patriots too (and can even be conservative ?)
Christian faith has nothing to do with being american french or italian or Iraqi.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Freethinker
Evidently, you know nothing of Bush's scurrying off to Offutt Air Force base to hide in a deep fortified hole in the ground.

You're right, a good President would have put himself in danger instead of directing the response. Oh wait, that'd be macho posing.

And we all know how terribly, terribly important that is to the well being of the nation.

Important? No. Nice to have? Yes.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Ok. That is a correlation, not a causal link. In fact you have to admit that atheist or non christian people can be very good patriots too (and can even be conservative ?)
Christian faith has nothing to do with being american french or italian or Iraqi.

I'm not the one making the link, I'm just answering your question. I'm not of the opinion that patriotism and Christianity are linked in any way.

Originally posted by Freethinker
LOL.

Running and hiding while the country was in danger is exactly what Bush DID do when the terrorist attacks occurred.

Evidently, you know nothing of Bush's scurrying off to Offutt Air Force base to hide in a deep fortified hole in the ground.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Wow you just showed how stupid you can be :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It is not the Prez. decision of were he is going, he had to go to a safe place so he could run the country dip wad. Maybe you should take a look a prez. 101 even a simple mind like me can figure this one out. Now come on, and try to give us something using your smarts.

how exaclty are we defining patriotism here?
because i dont' see reciting the pledge of allegiance as a patriotic action at all.

It is part of our culture. School children have been reciting the Pledge since at least the early 1950's. Learn the songs of America. Be proud of your country, regardless if you were born here or chose to move here. Americans have changed the world. Learn everything you can about this country, don't just sit back & bitch about how bad some politicains are. Political administrations change every few years. Vote. Be a responsible citizen. Get involved in your community. Make it a little better than it was when you arrived. Being an American is something people the world over are envious of. Yes, this country has its problems, but it's the greatest place on the planet to live.

Originally posted by mad dog
Wow you just showed how stupid you can be :rolleyes: :rolleyes: It is not the Prez. decision of were he is going, he had to go to a safe place so he could run the country dip wad.

The discussion at hand has nothing to do with the mandated procedures as regards presidential security in case of an attack on the country. It has to do specifically with where Bush spent the hours immediately following the 9/11 attacks.

I have not claimed that the decision was Mr Bush's to make.

I have not claimed that it was not the correct thing to do for the president to be spirited off to a secure location.

The positive assertion was made by LionelHutz that -- ""I knew I was voting for someone (Bush) that wouldn't run and hide when the country was in danger. ""

I am simply pointing out that Bush DID run [IOW, he traveled far away from the scene of the attacks] and he DID hide [IOW, he remained in a secret and safe location] on the day of the terrorist attacks.

The issue of the reasons why Bush was in hiding on that day is an entirely different subject than the fact that he DID travel far away from the conflict and stay in a secret and secure location until the danger was past.

NOW, after having made that clear, I think we can all see just who it is that comes off as having demonstrated their stupidity.

Originally posted by Freethinker
The discussion at hand has nothing to do with the mandated procedures as regards presidential security in case of an attack on the country. It has to do specifically with where Bush spent the hours immediately following the 9/11 attacks.

I have not claimed that the decision was Mr Bush's to make.

I have not claimed that it was not the correct thing to do for the president to be spirited off to a secure location.

The positive assertion was made by LionelHutz that -- ""I knew I was voting for someone (Bush) that wouldn't run and hide when the country was in danger. ""

I am simply pointing out that Bush DID run [IOW, he traveled far away from the scene of the attacks] and he DID hide [IOW, he remained in a secret and safe location] on the day of the terrorist attacks.

The issue of the reasons why Bush was in hiding on that day is an entirely different subject than the fact that he DID travel far away from the conflict and stay in a secret and secure location until the danger was past.

NOW, after having made that clear, I think we can all see just who it is that comes off as having demonstrated their stupidity. Yeah, you. Looks as though you dont really want to debate, you only want to play stupid word games. Tell me, why are you so angry with the world?

Originally posted by HaVoK
Tell me, why are you so angry with the world?

Quite simply....because I am deeply ashamed of this country and of the horrendous abuses that the ultra-Rightwing leadership of this country is guilty of perpetrating.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Quite simply....because I am deeply ashamed of this country and of the horrendous abuses that the ultra-Rightwing leadership of this country is guilty of perpetrating. How much difference is there between "the horrendous abuses that the ultra-Rightwing leadership of this country" and the abuses facilitated by Clinton while he was in office? Are they really that dissimilar?

Havok

You won't get debate from people that you blindly label as being "angry with the world". Geeeesh ... talk about slamming the door shut.

That type of remark only shows you, yourself, are closed to debate, narrow minded and posess an ideological center about which the context of the debate, in your mind, must always linger.

Just a heads-up that you might entertain.

Dop

Originally posted by HaVoK
How much difference is there between "the horrendous abuses that the ultra-Rightwing leadership of this country" and the abuses facilitated by Clinton while he was in office? Are they really that dissimilar?

No, they are not dissimilar at all.

Clinton ---although not quite as dedicated a Fascist as the current crop of operatives infesting the White House--- was NO friend of the People of this country, but was an obedient lapdog of far-Right Corporate interests.

Clinton decimated programs [Welfare, for instance] providing aid to the underpriviledged. Clinton continued the practice of massive overspending on the military, to the tune of +280 billion per year. Clinton continued the bombing and indiscriminate murder of Iraqi citizens throughout the 90's. Clinton failed to deliver on a national health care system, like the other First world of the countries have. Clinton refused to sign the Kyoto protocol, and failed to pass iniatitives that would have mandated a clean-up of the environment.


Clinton was the best Republican president [an oxymoron if there ever was one] of the 20th century.

Originally posted by Lungdop Philing
Havok

You won't get debate from people that you blindly label as being "angry with the world". Geeeesh ... talk about slamming the door shut.

That type of remark only shows you, yourself, are closed to debate, narrow minded and posess an ideological center about which the context of the debate, in your mind, must always linger.

Just a heads-up that you might entertain.

Dop Seems to me that we are debating just fine thank you. Every post he has made has been extremely aggressive. It wasnt a very far jump to conclude he had a lot of anger that had to be expressed this way. I am not the most politically correct individual in the world and I am admittedly obtuse in the finer points of written/verbal interaction. I dont have much time for B.S. So i guess you and I have very little to actually talk about. Blow your smoke up someone else's ass.

Lol Havok

Haven't heard the "blowing smoke" expression in 30 years.

Have a good one dude(ette)

Dop

Originally posted by Freethinker
NOW, after having made that clear, I think we can all see just who it is that comes off as having demonstrated their stupidity.

I guess that would be me? My point, which you're obviously smart enough to figure out but decided to ignore so that you could do your little superior dance, is that Bush, when the country was attacked, decided to go after the terrorists. Compare this to prior administrations that withdrew troops from hotspots to avoid controversy or that lobbed cruise missles at empty deserts, thus demonstrating that the U.S. was weak and that if attacked we would do nothing of consequence.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I guess that would be me? My point, which you're obviously smart enough to figure out but decided to ignore so that you could do your little superior dance, is that Bush, when the country was attacked, decided to go after the terrorists.

Riiiight.

Bush "went after" the terrorists.

Shortly after he [or forces working behind the scenes in the Bush Administration] acted to insure that nothing would prevent the long-planned [and well known about in advance] attacks from taking place.

es374,
the point i was trying to make is that "learning the songs of america" doesn't do much good for the country. it's an empty action, at least for me. also, these "songs" endorse america as a perfect country, the best place in the world to live, when i dont' agree with that. i would much rather spend my time trying to fix this country's problems then singing songs and reciting pledges that mean nothing to me.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Riiiight.

Bush "went after" the terrorists.

Shortly after he [or forces working behind the scenes in the Bush Administration] acted to insure that nothing would prevent the long-planned [and well known about in advance] attacks from taking place.

Riiiiiight.

Originally posted by sputnik
es374,
the point i was trying to make is that "learning the songs of america" doesn't do much good for the country. it's an empty action, at least for me. also, these "songs" endorse america as a perfect country, the best place in the world to live, when i dont' agree with that. i would much rather spend my time trying to fix this country's problems then singing songs and reciting pledges that mean nothing to me.

But it doesn't hurt the country either. It's culture, it's history. Must everything be 100% accurate? (Don't bring up the CBS Reagan documentary - I think the whole flap over that is 100% stupid). Shoud we amend the lyrics to all of our songs to reflect reality? It gets a little silly at some point.

lionel,
there are a lot of things about american culture that i don't like at all. for example, fast food is a part of american culture, a part of the culture that i strongly refuse to take part in.
and i don't really get what you're saying by the history thing. the mccarthy hearings, the internment of japanese-american citizens and slavery were also a part of american history. that does not mean we have to celebrate them.

What songs celebrate fast food, mccarthyism, and the internment of the Japanese? My point is this - America certainly isn't perfect, but does that mean we can't teach kids nice things about America? Must we discuss a litany of bad things whenever we discuss something good about it? Saying something nice about America is not the same thing as saying that "America is perfect so stop complaining."

People who might claim that you're unpatriotic for criticizing
America are moronic. People that swing the exact opposite direction are just as misguided.

Originally posted by Freethinker
The discussion at hand has nothing to do with the mandated procedures as regards presidential security in case of an attack on the country. It has to do specifically with where Bush spent the hours immediately following the 9/11 attacks.

I have not claimed that the decision was Mr Bush's to make.

I have not claimed that it was not the correct thing to do for the president to be spirited off to a secure location.

The positive assertion was made by LionelHutz that -- ""I knew I was voting for someone (Bush) that wouldn't run and hide when the country was in danger. ""

I am simply pointing out that Bush DID run [IOW, he traveled far away from the scene of the attacks] and he DID hide [IOW, he remained in a secret and safe location] on the day of the terrorist attacks.

The issue of the reasons why Bush was in hiding on that day is an entirely different subject than the fact that he DID travel far away from the conflict and stay in a secret and secure location until the danger was past.

NOW, after having made that clear, I think we can all see just who it is that comes off as having demonstrated their stupidity.

Thanks for proving my point, do you know anything about war? have you ever served?

[1]It has everything to do with the discussion, we are trying to tell you why things happen the way they do.

[2]If it is not Bush's decission to make then how can YOU call him a coward? or say that he ran on his own free will?

[3]You b***h about where the prez went, then you turn around and say that it's probably what should happen. Please make up your mind

[4]Bush did not run and hide he did what he was suppose to do. Like I have said, even my small brain can figure that out.

[5]How do you know that this place was so safe? he did go to a military place so he could figure out who, what, where, when, how, these "a"holes where attacking. I suppose he should have stood in Yankee stadium and held his arms out so everyone could see him :rolleyes: The prez had a job to do where do you suppose he should have done it? he needed to go somewhere where he could get things done without interuption. Know ONE knew who or why we where being attacked, how would ANYONE know where the next hit would have taken place?

[6] Bush going where he did is the issue, you are confused mighty grasshopper...........

[7]Once again thank you for proving my point, maybe if you don't try to twist things and stop conflicting with your own post you might do better.

I dont know about everyone else but here in the Bible belt its VERY mandatory to stand up and say the pledge, lest you want an office referral or youre a Jehovahs Witness(or non christian). The pledge seems to be very hypocritical to me and I avoid saying it.

It is illegal currently to force a kid to say the Pledge before school. Appeal the referral if you get one. If it sticks, contact the ACLU.