These are two very different, very conflicting ideas about the state of humanity, things that call our entire lives into question.

After all, if there is fate, then we are bound by what is destined to be and yet if there is free will then everything is a random happening of chance. Neither seems to be a very comforting option and both seem to totally disagree, but what if they don't?

Let us discuss predestination, first in a way ignoring the concept of a Transcendant Being(s).
You see, for every possible decision that you might make or have the chance to make, you will only make one of them for that given time and situation. Out of all the possibilities, there is only one occurrence. You may brush your teeth, you may blow your nose, but what you will do is look in the mirror first. No matter how many "mays" one and only one WILL occur. Looking from our perspective, we can only see backwards at the one thing we did and how we cannot change that however if we were able to get beyond our one dimension of time, we could see that the future is much the same in our inability to change it. To us it has not "happened" but that is because we are unable to see things from the proper perspective.

The "future" already exists as the future to us, then as the present, then eventually as the past. Perspective. So you see, though not known to you or us, what we are going to do is a fact and an event unchangeable and unmovable, simply further down the time line.

So what does this say about free will? Are we truly in chains? Slaves to the "future" that already exists? Perhaps. Perhaps we just delude ourselves into thinking that we have the ability to make our own decisions and that what happens is entirely up to us. Then again perhaps fate is merely the sum of our free will.

Perhaps we have total freedom and that freedom is what creates our fate. Perhaps we have a destiny of choice that we can't escape because we are the ones who cause it. Fate already knows what i am going to do, but do I? Does that fate interfere with my choices?

An important point to make is that if the future is spelled out for us already, it doesn't matter what we do (we have no choice), but if we have free will, then our future is decided by us. Thus, it's important always to behave as if you had free will.


There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that they've been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in lotus-land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
That's far too fleet...

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"....I've always liked that line in the song.

Thanks, Borg...now that song will be in my head all day!

:)
Kimi

"I am the Master of my Fate,
I am the Captain of my Soul."

Invictus

I wonder....a lot depends on the class you're born into--and yes, there is still class structure, even in our "classless" society.

And what about the little kids in ghettos or in Africa?

They're doomed before they're even born.

I think the point is really moot, because whether fate is determined or not, the consequence of human decision-making in the short-term is very reflective of reasoned expectations. Basically, determinism does not take away the significance of decision-making in the short-term.

I don't see why it should be depressing to say that everything a person will do is predetermined, as long as he does not have the ability to predict the future perfectly. Of course, an interesting paradox manifests itself when a person does have the ability to predict the future perfectly--that of whether he should be able to alter it.

I believe in free will and desinty. We all have the freedom to choose but our destiny is known by God.

Given that this is in Religion & Philosophy, the question may come from several perspectives. In a Christian sense, I have often wondered at the ability to even imagine Calvinism's predestination. Given an orthodox begining and ending, if one accepts the idea that some souls are headed toward destruction AND that humankind does not have free will, then one must conclude that God creates some people with no possible outcome other than torturous suffering. Is that any God you'd want a part of? Not me.

"I am the Master of my Fate,
I am the Captain of my Soul."

Invictus

I wonder....a lot depends on the class you're born into--and yes, there is still class structure, even in our "classless" society.

And what about the little kids in ghettos or in Africa?

They're doomed before they're even born.

Rendova, your reply is an excellent contradiction, and a lovely way to simplify the point of my post.

If we are the Master of our Fate, then it is because of Fate we are born into whatever "class or social scale" we are. In the same pretext our future is already predestined, so both can and do exist at the same time.

Thank you! I had never thought of it that way and has helped me to see it in a different view, your post was a real eye opener and food for thought.

You're welcome, cheyanne, even tho I think none of us really knows a dang thing about this topic, including myself, despite my high falutin words.:)

BTW, welcome to the boards.

Given that this is in Religion & Philosophy, the question may come from several perspectives. In a Christian sense, I have often wondered at the ability to even imagine Calvinism's predestination. Given an orthodox begining and ending, if one accepts the idea that some souls are headed toward destruction AND that humankind does not have free will, then one must conclude that God creates some people with no possible outcome other than torturous suffering. Is that any God you'd want a part of? Not me.

In the religious sense, I'm not sure, because as you pointed out very well, God would make people with the purpose of predestining them to hell and that is not a god I want to serve.

But then again, the bible states you have the free will to choose which god you will serve, so you have the choice and freewill to decide.

Therefore, your eternal Fate would not be predestined but a free will and choice on your behalf.

You're welcome, cheyanne, even tho I think none of us really knows a dang thing about this topic, including myself, despite my high falutin words.:)

BTW, welcome to the boards.

Thank you for the welcome, and you can call me Chey for short.

I don't pretend to know anything about it either, it's food for thought I've been questioning and always find other people's perspective on things interesting. I have enjoyed every response here and like the variety of answers.

There are certainly to seem as fate in our lives, but anyone can fix a fate.
It's not as a magic, Gods' will nor power above human, but it just a skill, and knowing person as knowing yourself.

I beleive that we exhibit free-will by doing what we what and making choices within pre-determind areas/boundries, dtermind by things like our genes and psychological profiles.

"I am the Master of my Fate,
I am the Captain of my Soul."

Invictus

I wonder....a lot depends on the class you're born into--and yes, there is still class structure, even in our "classless" society.

And what about the little kids in ghettos or in Africa?

They're doomed before they're even born.
we are affected by the choices of others, but that is still free will. the only fate is the grave.

I guess I believe in limited free will since we only have so many choices depending upon where we are globally, our cultural background and our current circumstances.

But then I believe that we have chosen to be in our current circumstances before we even get here. So that means we write our own novel as we go.

But then I believe that we have chosen to be in our current circumstances before we even get here. So that means we write our own novel as we go.By this do you mean that everyone chose to be born?

By this do you mean that everyone chose to be born?


I was going to ask ~Sal~ the same thing, but more specifically, do you believe we chose to be born into a certain race, social scale, or a country? into a certain background or circumstance?
How do you think we would be able to do that?

By this do you mean that everyone chose to be born?

I was going to ask ~Sal~ the same thing, but more specifically, do you believe we chose to be born into a certain race, social scale, or a country? into a certain background or circumstance?
How do you think we would be able to do that?

Yes I believe we chose to be born into a certain race, social scale, country, right down to who our parents are. We chose our journey for the growth we need. We chose our own suffering and hurdles.

I do believe we live multiple lives and that we come from home, and return home.

Then again, maybe we just return to dust and are no more. :)

Yes I believe we chose to be born into a certain race, social scale, country, right down to who our parents are. We chose our journey for the growth we need. We chose our own suffering and hurdles.Godwin looms on the horizon!

Do you really think people choose lives that end in horrible pain and suffering?

I'm imagining a soul between lives being given a choice here.

Godwin looms on the horizon!

Do you really think people choose lives that end in horrible pain and suffering?

I'm imagining a soul between lives being given a choice here.

Yeah people do it every day. They drink until their liver turns to stone. They gorge themselves on burgers until their blood sugar is unstable and they lose limbs. They clog their arteries with fat, they stick needles in their arms and sniff coke. They gorge themselves and then puke. They smoke until their lungs rot.

Yeah, we are a funny species. :D

I think we only map out the skeleton over there and when we are here we fill it in. Each life is a journey, a chance to grow and learn and love and be.

I don't know about you but I meet people all the time, (sometimes children even) that I would describe as an "old soul". I think that is literal. Some people have wisdom far beyond their personal experience or intellect.

Others have a cruelty about them, a smallness, they don't "get things".

Who is Godwin. Should I be looking this person up?

Who is Godwin. Should I be looking this person up?From the Wikipedia:

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage that Mike Godwin formulated in 1990. The law states:[2]

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Godwin's Law does not question whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[3] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[4] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.

Godwin has stated that he introduced Godwin's Law as an experiment in memetics.[2]

There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. It is considered poor form to raise arbitrarily such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I brought it up because the question "Who would choose to be Hitler?" seemed likely to be asked.

From the Wikipedia:

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage that Mike Godwin formulated in 1990. The law states:[2]

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Godwin's Law does not question whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,[3] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[4] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.

Godwin has stated that he introduced Godwin's Law as an experiment in memetics.[2]

There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. It is considered poor form to raise arbitrarily such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I brought it up because the question "Who would choose to be Hitler?" seemed likely to be asked.

Ah sorry, I should have known that I was focused elsewhere I guess. Hitler obviously chose to be Hitler.

While we may choose circumstances I do not believe we forsee the outcome nor is it preordained. If we did then we would believe in predestination no?

Then again, maybe you and I will just go to hell. :D

Hitler obviously chose to be Hitler.Not necessarily, at least not using your cosmological model. When you speak of 'old souls' and multiple lives the implication is that there are 'young souls' and first lives. These might not 'choose' to be born at all but rather come into existence by some process we can not understand from this mortal perspective. (Possibly sentience attracts or creates a kind of spiritual matter).

Then, as a soul matures it may begin to exert some control over the circumstances of the next life. This might be a little like steering a canoe through raging rapids -- impossible at first, but each lesson learned from a life gives you a bigger paddle. A terrible analogy, I know, but the idea is that by the time you get to life six or seven (provided you've learned something along the way) you can possibly choose which kind of life you'd like to experience.

People like Hitler or Stalin can be explained as being first-timers. As such, they are very nearly biological machines with only a rudimentary soul. For them, their lives are pre-destined to the extent that their souls have little or no ability to steer the course of their lives. They might see themselves as fiercely independent and iron-willed, but in reality they are slaves to the chemicals in their brains and so on.

Another possibility is that a very old soul, again from a perspective (between lives) that we cannot fathom, might see that a lesson of incredible value could be gained from a Hitler-like experience. Such a soul might also choose to be Hitler or a torture victim or whatever. Who knows? But it's interesting that in this line of thought 'free will' is a function of a soul's maturity.

Yes I believe we chose to be born into a certain race, social scale, country, right down to who our parents are.
~Sal~, that would be under Free will then, wouldn't it?


We chose our journey for the growth we need. We chose our own suffering and hurdles.
How would we know the sufferings and hurdles we are to be faced with, unless it is already predestined?

I do believe we live multiple lives and that we come from home, and return home.

Then again, maybe we just return to dust and are no more. :)

Where is Home? Can you be more specific in your answer?

Not necessarily, at least not using your cosmological model. When you speak of 'old souls' and multiple lives the implication is that there are 'young souls' and first lives. These might not 'choose' to be born at all but rather come into existence by some process we can not understand from this mortal perspective. (Possibly sentience attracts or creates a kind of spiritual matter). True. I honestly have not contemplated "the beginning" as such. But I like your theory.

Then, as a soul matures it may begin to exert some control over the circumstances of the next life. This might be a little like steering a canoe through raging rapids -- impossible at first, but each lesson learned from a life gives you a bigger paddle. A terrible analogy, I know, but the idea is that by the time you get to life six or seven (provided you've learned something along the way) you can possibly choose which kind of life you'd like to experience. Actually I think it is an excellent analogy.

People like Hitler or Stalin can be explained as being first-timers. As such, they are very nearly biological machines with only a rudimentary soul. For them, their lives are pre-destined to the extent that their souls have little or no ability to steer the course of their lives. They might see themselves as fiercely independent and iron-willed, but in reality they are slaves to the chemicals in their brains and so on. I like this concept for the Hitlers of the world.

Another possibility is that a very old soul, again from a perspective (between lives) that we cannot fathom, might see that a lesson of incredible value could be gained from a Hitler-like experience. Such a soul might also choose to be Hitler or a torture victim or whatever. Who knows? But it's interesting that in this line of thought 'free will' is a function of a soul's maturity I also think it can be used for the short life of babies etc. From this perspective even the longest human life is very short and thus suffering here may be considered short term for what may be gained as the soul ages.

~Sal~, that would be under Free will then, wouldn't it? It would be ultimate free will because there is no limit to the potential to grow and learn.

How would we know the sufferings and hurdles we are to be faced with, unless it is already predestined? I do not think we know the specific suffering or hurdles that we are going to encounter within the frame of the life that we construct. But we do know that choosing certain options will challenge us in certain ways. Other frames would lead to a different set of challenges. I also think that "old souls" have a heavier challenge of "helping" since they are further ahead and more capable of self sacrifice.


Where is Home? Can you be more specific in your answer Well I think perhaps "home" is over there. Meaning just another space. Let's say for easy understanding that home is 'heaven'. Let's say we have a life and die. We go back home and after a certain time we may choose to return. The sole purpose of our existence is growth and once again uniting with the higher power. The more we grow the closer we are to "the light" or God. The closer we are to the Light while home, the purer we are upon return here and the cycle continues.

I do not view God as a fiery brimstone judger. But more as a purposeful energy that is present in everything. We are of this energy.

If you have ever worked with old people, the closer they become to death the more they begin to "slip" over there. Often times they will talk of returning home. They speak of their loved ones as being present and waiting to receive them. Most of us know at least a few months before we die that our time is short, even if we are very healthy. I think the two spaces are not far.

Young children too will often tell parents, "they chose them".

Science explains much of this as chemicals firing or dying within our brain. They may be right. But they may be wrong.

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

This is funny, because as an online discussion (or any discussion, for that matter) grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving anything approaches one.

Free will!

I second that

But pre-destination is the ultimate cop out! I couldn't help myself.:banana:

Oh, check that...believeing that both exist at the same time is the great cop out.

I'm a believer in free will. In any situation there are multiple responses than may be made. One can be proactive one way, proactive in other ways, reactive in one way or reactive in other ways. Life is a series of choices, most of which we make without even realizing we are making them.

Do we eat the healthy food or do we go to McDonald's? Do we purchase a safe Volvo or a small sports car? Do we marry the girl we got pregnant or do we convince her to get an abortion? Every day consist of nothing but choices.

I'm a believer in free will. In any situation there are multiple responses than may be made. One can be proactive one way, proactive in other ways, reactive in one way or reactive in other ways. Life is a series of choices, most of which we make without even realizing we are making them.

Do we eat the healthy food or do we go to McDonald's? Do we purchase a safe Volvo or a small sports car? Do we marry the girl we got pregnant or do we convince her to get an abortion? Every day consist of nothing but choices.
A believer of predestination can counter this by pointing out that the range of your choices are limited.

Of course to me, a pragmatist, that sort of argument is pretty meaningless. For the most part I don't care whether decision making is an act of free will or predestination because, like I said earlier, consequences of your choices can be expected reasonably, which gives utility to decision making.