WASHINGTON - The son of Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden is preparing for deployment to Iraq next year. Capt. Beau Biden, a Judge Advocate General in the Delaware National Guard and the state's attorney general, is part of the 261st Signal Brigade that has been told to prepare for duty in Iraq in 2008. They have not been given a date of deployment yet.


"I don't want him going," Delaware Sen. Joe Biden said from the campaign trail Wednesday, according to a report on Radio Iowa. "But I tell you what, I don't want my grandson or my granddaughters going back in 15 years and so how we leave makes a big difference."

Biden criticized Democratic rivals such as Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama who have voted against Iraq funding bills to try to pressure President Bush to end the war.

"There's no political point worth my son's life," Biden said, according to Radio Iowa. "There's no political point worth anybody's life out there. None."

Lt. Col. Len Gratteri, spokesman for the Delaware National Guard, said Beau Biden is not being treated differently because of his office or because his father is running to be commander in chief.

"He's a deployable asset just like any other soldier in that unit," Gratteri said.

Two other presidential candidates, Republicans John McCain and Duncan Hunter, have sons who've been in military units deployed to Iraq.

___


WOW.... a Democrat that ACTUALLY GETS IT........ This war....fan of it or not.... is not going to be over in an instant. For all rights and reasons it isnt going to be over while the adminstration is still intact.... so why oh why are all these democrats trying to cut funds to support the troops. Who is really suffering by these acts?

### I also hope this doesnt turn into the debate of if the "republicans think the war is right let thier sons fight in it"

I mean christ... thier sons did not willingly and with free will sign up for service. There is NO draft. Everyone over there choose either directly or indirectly to be there. They were not plucked out of thier beds at night and dropped off with guns in hand. So now that they are over there,SOME are complaining that they dont want to be. Well I am sorry but i am sure though out the begining of time a huge huge huge vast majority of soldiers all over the world did not want to be fighting. That is where honor and duty enter in.

[COLOR="Black"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]WOW.... a Democrat that ACTUALLY GETS IT

Do you agree with Joe about the need to partition Iraq also?

Or do you just want to see the occupation continue until we declare "victory" and leave?

I want to see the situation over there to get alot better. I believe WE need to finish what we started.

Where we needed to start it or not. THat should even be an arguement anymore. It is done it is over... lets move forward.

The current direction is what the country is debating. I do not think even Dharma would want to see us just "up and out" and allow the country to plung into chaos.

I am a proud Republican,but I do feel our current direction is slow in progress,too costly for us back home,and in desperate need to be over hauled. I still with all my breath want it to be under the watch of the Republicans.

WASHINGTON - The son of Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden is preparing for deployment to Iraq next year.

A Democrat I can almost say is stupidly putting himself in danger for NOTHING.

NOTHING.

"There's no political point worth my son's life," Biden said, according to Radio Iowa. "There's no political point worth anybody's life out there. None."

Yeah. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

If Biden truly thought that, he would be against his son going, instead of boldly striding in front of the teevee cameras making a huge issue of the fact that he is going.


So now that they are over there,SOME are complaining that they dont want to be. .....That is where honor and duty enter in.

I'm sorry, but I cannot imagine any human invention more meaningless and stupid than --""honor and duty""-- that a human being could forfeit their life for. That's just the way that I feel about it.

I do feel our current direction is slow in progress,too costly for us back home,and in desperate need to be over hauled. I still with all my breath want it to be under the watch of the Republicans.

Given their past performance, and what the lying sons of bitches have led us into, I want with all my breath for it to be under the watch of anyone on earth except the Republicans.

Given their past performance, and what the lying sons of bitches have led us into, I want with all my breath for it to be under the watch of anyone on earth except the Republicans.


WOW... FT is grumpy tonight!

WOW... FT is grumpy tonight!

I am always just a tad *grumpy* when it concerns the lying MFers in Washington leading this country into a disastrous, illegal, ill-advised war.

I am always just a tad *grumpy* when it concerns the lying MFers in Washington leading this country into a disastrous, illegal, ill-advised war.

If yer truly so passionate about PROVING exactly How republicans
use Lies to pander and influence their flock,please,by all means
write down on the nearest napkin,those Lies and outright falsehoods.
because you can't.
It's all part & parcel of the Leftist mentality to construct ALL
Republicans as craven,Liars,given to a Corporate Profit Mindset,at the
expense of Truth and those of lesser means { lower classes }.
It's gettin kinda silly stupid putrid boring to hear,ad infinitum,these
ridiculous hourly claims by yer ilk,how Republicans are out
to unravel the inherent stability and goodwill of this Land,thru
hook or crook.
Back it up,once and for all,er walk the walk into Dante's inferno
where bastard philistine loom large.

If you are so bored, Fool, feel free to leave.

If you are so bored, Fool, feel free to leave.

Why leave.? That makes yer pointed distortions easier to
blather.Maybe I'll just stick around and see what Bullcrap
You & FreeTinkers pull.
Because you and he,ARE,in the least,Disingenuously Pullin Crap.

You should've called FT "FreeTinkle". :D

(No offense, FT. Just seemed like something Foolie would say...)

I want to see the situation over there to get alot better. I believe WE need to finish what we started.

Where we needed to start it or not. THat should even be an arguement anymore. It is done it is over... lets move forward.

The current direction is what the country is debating. I do not think even Dharma would want to see us just "up and out" and allow the country to plung into chaos.

I am a proud Republican,but I do feel our current direction is slow in progress,too costly for us back home,and in desperate need to be over hauled. I still with all my breath want it to be under the watch of the Republicans.
You sure answered Dharma's question, but you did it by what you didn't say. What you did say wasn't much. It boils down to, "Stay the course." See, this is the problem. No idea for a timetable, no appreciation for the monumental fuck-up that was our decision to go to war in the first place, and a seemingly mindless obediance to Washington's desire to look good without actually doing anything worthwhile. This post read like a Republican press release.

We've "stayed the course." We've been doing it for four long years now. We need a better plan.

No idea for a timetable, no appreciation for the monumental fuck-up that was our decision to go to war in the first place, and a seemingly mindless obediance to Washington's desire to look good without actually doing anything worthwhile.

Having "appeciation for the mistakes made" anywhere or by anyone is not going to solve anyhthing. I really do not think any decision having to do with war is really unanimously decided. What ther prtoblem with you and your co-horts is that you want the adminstration to bown down and offer thier heads as pennence for post mistakes before you even want to talk about a solution. Hell no I do not think we need to stay the course. We need as a better answer that does not leave the country of iraq in total conflict. For a political party that loves the phrase MOVEON.... they sure have a hard time actually doing it.

Having "appeciation for the mistakes made" anywhere or by anyone is not going to solve anyhthing.
What it will do is get people in the right mind to have a solution. There is no place for bull-headedness when it comes to war. Clear heads and clear actions must rule. We must acknowledge things as they are before we can move them. As it is now, we fucked up. We made a big mistake. It deserves to be acknowledged. Not hidden.

I really do not think any decision having to do with war is really unanimously decided.
It doesn't need a unanimous decision. It just needs a decision.

What ther prtoblem with you and your co-horts is that you want the adminstration to bown down and offer thier heads as pennence for post mistakes before you even want to talk about a solution.
Does the word, "accountability," mean anything to you?

Hell no I do not think we need to stay the course. We need as a better answer that does not leave the country of iraq in total conflict.
That's a start. But you have to understand that there may not be a better solution. Iraq may well be a quagmire twenty years from now. Do we really want to commit troops for two, three, even four more years from now, and still have what we have today? This war is not cheap. More important than accountability, as you said, is a solution, but neither you, nor any of your "co-horts," are offering us any. Pulling the troops out and ending our involvement will eliminate our exposure, perhaps not ideally, but it will serve the purposes of the United States. As to the problems of the Iraqis, they should be able to sort themselves out. It might take them twenty years, but hell, there's countries in South America who haven't had peace in even longer.

Pulling out is the only politically feasible solution. Vastly increasing our commitment is impossible under the current climate. Continuing with current troop levels is stupid.

[QUOTE=dharmabum]Do you agree with Joe about the need to partition Iraq also?


NO.We simply as a Country need to partition all Liberal
Peacknik democrats to one side of a fence.Because that's
the side that Terrorist like,and NEED,in order to have the
daily momentum to defeat us.
If this entire Country pulled together and at least ACTED like
we {our Military } was 10 feet tall,The Terrorists wood dissipate
and vanish,quicker than Alladins Lamp and it's mysterious luck.

If this entire Country pulled together and at least ACTED like
we {our Military } was 10 feet tall,The Terrorists wood dissipate
and vanish,quicker than Alladins Lamp and it's mysterious luck.It's a good thing you have no desire to be taken seriously.

It's a good thing you have no desire to be taken seriously.

Sadly, I think he does.

It's not an act.

He truly IS that fucking ignorant and misinformed.

Incredible, but true.

And we (the US) have been an imperialist country since WWII. Sorry, but that is the truth. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other but I'm afraid the "shit hand" will fill up faster.

We are what we are. We have been the "policeman of the world" since long before you or I have been born. You may not like it (and may "wish" that is not the case) but that has no bearing on what we are.

We are an imperialist capitalist society. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that is what we are. You can scream to the mountain-tops about free men and socialist ideals, but that will change nothing. We have our strength based on economic and military power (which we have) and no amount of "feel-good" analysis will change that. Sorry for the "bubble-burst" but that is a fact.

Feel free to denounce the "corporate driven capitalist ogres" that we are. Just remember that IS what we are and you remain a part of it... like it or not.

Pulling the troops out and ending our involvement will eliminate our exposure, perhaps not ideally, but it will serve the purposes of the United States. As to the problems of the Iraqis, they should be able to sort themselves out. It might take them twenty years, but hell, there's countries in South America who haven't had peace in even longer.

Pulling out is the only politically feasible solution. Vastly increasing our commitment is impossible under the current climate. Continuing with current troop levels is stupid.


I have to say I agree. South America is alot worse. And maybe yeah,maybe we need to just pull out. In all honesty it would be the quickest way to finish this. Well not really finish. But it would definetly be over.

My only fear really with pulling out completely (excluding the moral responsibility,and "if you break it you fix it" idealism) is there are alot of NEW enemies Iraq,and alot of OLD enemies in the same region. I am afraid if we pull out completely and leave the area all by its lonesome. We will have a country that can become a viable threat to us,and rich enough to maintain that level of danger.

We will have a country that can become a viable threat to us,and rich enough to maintain that level of danger.
Well, when you consider the fact that Saddam couldn't even manufacture a credible enough threat to the US, any empty threat by random warlords just isn't going to have much punch. And when you take in our tendency to legitimize and deal favorably with strongman governments that play nicely to American corporate interests, and freeze out governments that don't, you have to figure that anyone who does get to the top in that shithole will at least pay lip service to Americanism.

Because the reality is, Iraq really isn't all that different from the rest of the world. The world is run by money, and we got the lion's share of it. Saddam made threats against us, not because he actually wanted to threaten the US, but because he wanted to play big badass so he could gain power regionally. Fervent threats, calls to arms, all that mess, are really just ways at getting more of it. There's plenty of things we can do to neutralize threats against our nation, that don't involve long, uncertain military occupations. Someone will come out on top in Iraq, and we'll do what we've done for decades. Extort the hell out of them.

Well said.... I am forced to either agree with you mostly or abondon all right and reason and just be plain impossible...

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll find easier fare in some of the other lefties around here. :D I don't bother with too many political discussions, they just don't intrigue me.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll find easier fare in some of the other lefties around here. :D I don't bother with too many political discussions, they just don't intrigue me.


Believe it or not I just realized this forum has other themes besides politics. I think I might spread my wings a little more. Too many nut jobs on both sides of the fence to keep up with on a daily basis

Hah, go right ahead! Few of the other fora update as much as the two political sections, but you'll meet people you won't meet here.

And we (the US) have been an imperialist country since WWII. Sorry, but that is the truth. You can wish in one hand and shit in the other but I'm afraid the "shit hand" will fill up faster.It can be argued that we have been an imperialist nation since our inception. Certainly, in the modern sense, we have been one since the Spanish-American War (that's 1898 for any waldoish folks out there). But even then a great many Americans opposed this course and some of the most prominent among them formed the Anti-Impeialist League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Anti-Imperialist_League), led for a time before his death by Samuel Clemens. The Anti-Imperialists, for example, opposed the annexation of the Philippines on moral and constitutional grounds. They failed in their efforts, however, lacking both political strength and internal unity. The national mindset, all aglow with military success, worked against them. Consider this rather damning quote from President William McKinley:

When I next realized that the Philippines had dropped into our laps I confess I did not know what to do with them. . . And one night late it came to me this way. . .1) That we could not give them back to Spain- that would be cowardly and dishonorable; 2) that we could not turn them over to France and Germany-our commercial rivals in the Orient-that would be bad business and discreditable; 3) that we not leave them to themselves-they are unfit for self-government-and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain's wars; and 4) that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God's grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/blackboard/mckinley.html

Please note that option 3 was never given any serious consideration even though it would be the one demanded by the guiding principle of our nation's founding, namely that "governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed". But McKinley justifies abandoning this principle by appealing to the logic of evangelicalism, that we can conquer these people for their own good. I think that if I ever write an analysis of why 9/11 happened I'll begin with this paragraph. It is exactly this sort of thinking that has worked to create a wellspring of hatred for America in many parts of the world.We are what we are. We have been the "policeman of the world" since long before you or I have been born. You may not like it (and may "wish" that is not the case) but that has no bearing on what we are.It may have no bearing on who we are, but what we "wish" can certainly have great bearing on who we become. We can accept the status quo and blithely follow the path of least resistance to our eventual doom, or we can reject it and work towards a better America and eventually a better humanity. History shows us that empires rise and fall, that none can endure. But what if we actually took a lesson from this history and applied it to ourselves? Might we not break the cycle of empire and downfall? This, to me, is the most practical reason to reject imperialism. I see it as a matter of national survival in the long run.

It may have no bearing on who we are, but what we "wish" can certainly have great bearing on who we become. We can accept the status quo and blithely follow the path of least resistance to our eventual doom, or we can reject it and work towards a better America and eventually a better humanity. History shows us that empires rise and fall, that none can endure. But what if we actually took a lesson from this history and applied it to ourselves? Might we not break the cycle of empire and downfall? This, to me, is the most practical reason to reject imperialism. I see it as a matter of national survival in the long run.
I don't disagree with your statement, sedan. All that I was basically pointing out was that this is what we are. We have a plethora of posts/posters that seem to think we running head-long into an imperialist society. I only offered my "rant" that we are not turning imperialistic, we are imperialistic.

The U.S. had ebbed and flowed somewhat over the past 100 years in it's policies toward other nations. We were in isolationist mode prior to WWII (due to the distaste left from WWI). We realized (after 12/07/41), that we had to join in the battle.

Do I want the U.S. to continue "nation building"? No. I agree that it generally hurts our reputation, not helps it.

Do many countries need "help" with poor (even evil) tyrants and other issues? Yes.

What really is depressing to me, is the impotence of the United Nations. If it only worked as a group to improve things, instead of being a bunch of blithering and inept politicos. It's such a waste.

Unfortunately, the world does need policemen. There are leaders of countries that need to have their respective hand slapped (or ass kicked) by someone. If everyone "played fair" there would be no need for referees in ball games.

That's what a group like the UN should be doing. Instead they don't referee, they play "arm chair quarterback" and wallow in their greed and ineptitude (geez... I sound like FT talking about America...lol).

We need a real United Nations. What we currently have is a grand idea gone horribly wrong.

Biden 1
Romney 0

Wow, great posts from sedan and OldPhart! I wish this country could be a bit more isolationist. And I agree about the UN. It's a great idea to have a UN, in theory, but we apparently can't make it work the way it's supposed to.

It's a shame that any time you have a position of power... in the long run you don't get the honest, responsible people to occupy it. Normally the founders are just that, but then over the years people realize how much THEY can get for THEM through the position.. and it's a downward spiral from there.