.........reflections on America, from 2002..........

Just wondering if anyone else has similar feelings about the topic and comparisons and experiences I will talk about in this piece. It's been bugging me for quite awhile now, but especially since 9/11. And fight it as I do, I feel more alienated every day, and more a stranger in a strange land. It's this piece of cloth with stars and stripes you see, old Glory, long may she wave, these colors don't fade, that's right, the good old American flag. I have come to loathe the very sight of it. It has become as ugly and as immoral as the old Nazi swastika to me. Maybe even worse.

Before 9/11 of course, seeing American flags was relatively rare. Since, it has become a prevalent icon/symbol almost everywhere I look. It's almost impossible to leave my apartment without it being shoved into my eyeballs, even if only peripherally. And the thing is, since I believe fascism has indeed come to America, and that we are in a situation very similar to that which occurred in Germany in the 30's (and worse is coming for us I believe, much worse, just like it did for the Third Reich), the flag (or variations of the red, white and blue), has come to represent for me personally, a strong icon/symbol which has most recently made me think of Nazi Germany and their swastika.

The stark red, black, and white of the Nazi swastika was virtually everywhere back then in Germany. The leader (Hitler) and his henchmen wore it as a pin at times (like Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, et al do with the American flag now). It was on flags and jewelry and dinner dishes and pistols and hung/displayed in windows, you name it, that swastika was everywhere. It was an authoritarian regime, it practiced basically similar policies that we are today (IMO), and the swastika and swastika flag, while revered and treated with so much respect at the times by the powers that be (and ordinary sheepish masses), was seen everywhere. Of course, to the loyal opposition, and especially given the passing of history, it has become a true icon/symbol of oppression, evil, and horror. To the few dissidents at the time within the country, to the Gypsies, the Jews, and other intimidated and repressed, suffering groups, it had always been an immoral emblem. And opposition to it was strictly verboten. Only in the Allied war time (and post-war time) films, whether propaganda or Hollywood mainstream, was the swastika seen for what it truly represented. That attitude remains today. Put up a swastika anywhere, anytime, anyplace, and watch the fireworks begin.

But why do I so much feel I'm living in similar times? Only now, the icon/symbol of an immoral regime, is not that used by the Nazis. It has been replaced by the American government, its citizens, and so many institutions with the American flag. How can I explain how I feel about this nowadays? Well, let's take a sort of average day in the life of Diwi, and perhaps my gist will become clear.

I get up. I turn on CNN. On the "news," right above the ticker-tape bullshit, is an animated American flag. Meanwhile, they are talking about "cleaning out areas of resistance" in Afghanistan. A commercial will come on, somehow tying a product in (doesn't matter what) with the flag, or with the concept of "patriotism" and flag; iow, country worship.

I change the channel to Fox. Same things. A bit goofier, but essentially a carbon copy of CNN, their own version of the little omnipresent American flag, or some variation of red, white and blue. Same commercials. Turning to ABC, CBS, or NBC gives similar results. So, I turn on an old movie, get ready for work, and leave.

As soon as I leave my house, whether I look directly or not (there's that peripheral vision problem, even though my own is fading fast), I almost immediately spot an American flag. There's a huge one hanging from a neighbor's porch (at least 10 feet long) about 3 houses down. The other direction, a couple houses down, there's a little flag sticking out of the front lawn. Another house next to this has a flag in the upstairs window, and so on. Waiting at the bus stop, I can spot at least half a dozen parked cars or other vehicles with either little $2 K-Mart flags pinned to their radio antennae, or in a window, or somewhere on a bumper sticker. The latest one of those I've seen is the "these colors don't fade" one. Wonder what Madison Avenue marketing genius came up with that one? But, I mean, I have been awake for an hour or so, and unless I did not turn on the "news," or leave my home, it would be nearly impossible to not see this icon/symbol. And like I said, I see it these days as one representing an immoral, fascist government and country, and I am a dissenter, so does anyone else feel my discomfort, my unease, my disgust, my aversion, my dilemma yet?

But, then my bus pulls up. There is an American flag usually in the front window, near the window wipers. I greet the bus driver, a lot of whom have flag pins or buttons. Same with many of the passengers. Along the way to work, I see many more houses and vehicles and many business establishments, all with the American flag or again, some variation of red, white and blue. Now, right after 9/11, this was much more prevalent, and it seems a lot of this is going away, but I'm wondering, is it really, or is it just being co- opted, this "patriotism" thing, and turned into (like it was in Nazi Germany), an icon/symbol of one's "true" devotion to what this country should represent (but doesn't IMO)? So, why is it so disturbing and phony to me? With all the lies, the "appointed" president (hell, Hitler was at least elected!), the phony war, the atrocities we have committed worldwide and the thousands if not 10's or even 100's of thousands we have murdered worldwide, lately in Afghanistan, why should I as one who considers himself a humanitarian, a pacifist, and an anarchist (the good kind), feel anything but contempt for this piece of cloth? With the ridiculous "patriot act" and other such nonsense, is it now somehow my "duty" as a resident and citizen to hold reverence to this, or to "see" it in the way Corporate America obviously wants me to? If I feel uncomfortable with this, does that automatically make me a terrorist or terrorism sympathizer? Does it even make me anti-American when the flag itself has come to represent what to me is an evil empire?

On the way to my job every day, I have to pass through a major hospital complex. There are huge flags hanging on the front of the main entrance I use. As soon as I get inside, there are little inkjet American flags everywhere, on office doors, in hallways, in elevators, in stairwells, at the prescription pick up window, you name it, you can't escape it. A lot of these cheapo flags have little catchy phrases like "United We Stand" or "God Bless America." Recently, in a hospital/clinic mind you, and near the frequently displayed AT&T cellular long distance booth, they put up (right next to a bagel and coffee stand, which in addition has a couple of those little K-Mart jobs), this huge and obviously quite expensive glossy thick canvas oil painting. The thing is probably six by four feet.

The picture is a small part of the white stars on blue background, with a couple of red and white stripes. Above this picture, still on the canvas mind you, are huge glittering gold-embossed fancy font lettering saying, "United We Stand." What, I have to ask myself every morning, does this have to do with a hospital? I mean, the AT&T booth (and other similar corporate merchants who somehow get temporary space next to the old ladies and wheelchair folks now and then) is ridiculous in itself, and makes me angry, but let's recap for a moment.

From the time I woke up to the time I get to the main entrance of this hospital, I have been bombarded by the American flag, or by a variation of it. Everything from a bit of animation on the TV, to a painting which must've at least cost hundreds of dollars if not more. This painting is an outrage to me. It is nearby a prescription drug counter window (bullet-proof), which also features a couple of those cheapo ink jet renderings, and the ladies who work behind the window usually have a flag pin on or a flag shirt, or some other variation. This expensive painting, right next to the long line of elderly folks who can barely stand, let alone pay for their friggin' prescription drugs. Is all of this a racket or what?

Walking through the complex to get to my work, the icon/symbol of the American flag is everywhere. Everywhere. There is no escaping it. One would have to be blind to do so, and that may be my fate (and blessing?) soon. Flags to the left of me, flags to the right of me, flags up my ass and colon and intestines and heart and spine and brain stem. I get to work and outside of my building, a huge flag. Inside, flags all over offices, hallways, stairways, well, you get the picture. Various people I work with every day, flag pins, flag buttons, patriotic postcards, red, white and blue clothing. Computer wallpaper of flags or other patriotic nonsense. I go out back to have a smoke, and watch several cars roll by, with flags. A police car goes by, with a flag on its bumper. A firetruck, and a flag. A delivery truck, and a flag. A taxicab, and a flag. From the tops of many buildings, flags. Everywhere. No escape.

So, I go through my day, and I bite my tongue, and I do not show any relatively blatant form of disgust or dissent (someone told me if I put a peace sign on my office door, it was a sure way to get fired!). I feel like ripping down a lot of these things, or using my cigarette lighter. However, even in the remotest areas, a deserted hallway, whatever, there are cameras everywhere. Watching every move. So, what's all this starting to sound like? I laugh when people tell me in here or elsewhere that we are not living in a fascist state. I sometimes would love to tell a lot where to shove that meaningless piece of cloth (along with the pole).

I stop in a store on the way home, and more flags, in the windows, in the aisles, everywhere. When I get to the checkout, there by the bubblegum and M&M's are little flag pins for sale, little flags on poles for sale, little buttons with catchy patriotic sayings for sale, even Kleenax tissues in handy little red, white and blue pocket containers. I wait for the bus and watch all the vehicles go by, many with flags. In potted heavy cement plants that line the area near my bus stop, are those little K-Mart specials (unless they are stolen by good old patriotic Americans who would rather steal than buy). My bus comes, flag taped into front window. A lot of flag folks get on. I ride home and see all the same flags I saw in the morning, hoping maybe one less will be there. But that's a slow process. I get home and walk past a church. The church has a flag in the window, right next to some baby Jesus statue. And of course, into my home, the huge flag draped over my neighbor's porch impossible to miss, even peripheral-vision wise. Maybe I need some darker sunglasses?

But throughout my day in the "real world," there is that icon/symbol. As it must've been back in the Third Reich. And it represents very similar things to me, even if it does not to most. Of course, in my view, it has become more of a "fad" than anything. And most people who display or wear it, aren't even thinking anymore, either about it or what is supposed to represent, or the reality of what it does. Are they? Or, does it just "mean" something entirely different to me than most? Do I "see" something they do not, or vica versa? Back inside my own private homeland security, again the TV goes on, and again, watching the "news" and more animated flags, "patriotic" corporate commercials, and drivel about what "America" is up to. Almost none of it critical of course. We drop fire on children, we blow their bodies to bits, we enslave millions to make cheap Nike shoes and such, we support Israel, usually, yet another fascist state masquerading as a democracy. We claim to be killing hundreds of "terrorists" daily but it is all just a short mention from some Pentagon "briefing."

Meanwhile, the flag draped coffins of "our boys" who gave their lives for Fuhrer Bush, get front and center attention. No one usually asks how many more of those we will see soon. But everything's alright. When we someday build a memorial wall to them, or to the victims of 9/11, or to whatever other horrible "terrorist attack" our government tells us is coming, or when we invade yet another brown or yellow skinned country to crap for the good old American way, I'm sure there will be many even cheaper K-Mart flags to pay "honor" to them, and inkjet printers keep getting cheaper and cheaper, ya know?

So, I switch my channels, trying to find anything not immersed in flags or this false patriotism dedicated to this phony, immoral, endless war, but it's hard. Because you see, that ridiculous comedy- satire program "West Wing" is on NBC. And "Sixty-Minutes II" is on CBS, usually with yet another story on the phony war. And ABC is going to give the axe to Ted Koppel I hear, because most silly, braindead Americans actually get their news from Leno and Letterman anyway, right? The cable channels aren't much better. History Channel is doing one this week on "high tech weapons." American weapons of course. Ones of mass destruction from a state-sponsored terrorist country. Only none of it is called that of course. Over on TNT and half a dozen other channels it seems, reruns of "Law and Order." Law and Order. The primary numbers of the Hitler equation. And now, that of the new American fascist one. Thank God for HBO and Starz and Turner Movie Classics. A bit of escape for me. Just a bit from the pounding into my head and into the depths of my fading eyes that I've spent all days trying to avoid. The good old red, white and blue.

I work in a medium-sized urban area, and live in a residential one nearby, within city limits. But I'm sure my experiences and what I see every day and night are common to a lot of you. Perhaps I am alone in my feelings, perhaps not. Maybe it's just not right to talk of such things, at least openly. Remember, big brother has his cameras trained, so put away that lighter, put away that look of contempt, put away that utter feeling I'm sure many Jews and other such folks felt long ago, when their own country was stolen from them, and suddenly they were expected to pay almost holy reverence to an icon and a symbol. Back then, it was the swastika flag. Today, for me at least, it is the American one. Back then, you were either with them or against them. That didn't make much difference of course to the victors, the "good guys," who killed 100's of 1000's of innocents in far away (from the homeland) places such as Hamburg, or Dresden, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki. What has changed? The "victors" of course, write the history. And that is passed down to future generations as some "truth." The swastika and what it represents to anyone of humanitarian reason, is obvious. The obvious becomes clear sometimes with the passing of time.

But I wonder. Is it really possible to win an endless war? Is it conceivable that this country can basically declare anyone who disagrees with its current and "official" policies and practices and behavior, automatically "the enemy?" And if I feel revulsion at the sight anymore of the American flag or any variation of it, does that make me automatically anti-Jefferson, anti-Lincoln, anti-Kennedy? Must I be required, by laws hurriedly passed through a timid bunch of sheep and cowards (Congress) to pay homage to an icon/symbol which I have come to see as little different than the Nazi swastika?

I bite my tongue, and hold my lip daily, except with trusted family and friends. But frankly folks, I am sick to death of seeing that silly, stupid red, white and blue, in any form, but mostly in that which I can no longer distinguish from the one that flew in the Third Reich. That one was very popular, inside the country. And alas, ours seems so within our borders. But back in time, the swastika and its flag was seen very differently by those not in country. And I think we have to wake up to the fact that as long as we keep acting like a murderous international bully, as long as we can't provide basic and free health care to our own citizens, as long as we treat our elderly as we do, as long as people of color's "equal opportunities" to share the American dream are mythical in nature only, as long as there are people sleeping in our streets and sewer systems and subways and our own forms of urban caves, as long as we continue this insane drug war, and on and on, well, my own perspective about what that American flag actually represents, is what the rest of the planet is going to think also. I wish it were not so. There are many great things about the country. It's just that folks have to stop thinking that whole concept and what it should stand for, has anything to do with the present shadowy figures running the show from behind the curtain.

Every time I see an American flag or variation of the theme these days, I feel sick in my mind, heart, and soul. It has come to represent its exact opposite of what it should, to me at least. I try to believe that most people who display or trumpet this icon/symbol, know not what they do, or what they actually support, much like most in Germany did not in the 30's. But that may only be wishful thinking. At odd times since 9/11, I have been able to express my feelings about all of this, even to flag wearers/displayers, but it's rare, and it's scary, and I feel like a member of the resistance must've felt like a long time ago, to other wearers/displayers of the swastika. It helps at times to ask them why they wear it, but usually the results are disappointing. They wear it, because, in so many words, they've been brainwashed into thinking somehow it's the "patriotic" or correct thing to do. We are in a war, after all. When I mention what our own leaders have termed it however, an endless war, sometimes I see a little spark, a bit of an awakening. Hopefully, next time they think of that flag, or a variation of it, they will think of what it truly represents. Unfortunately, I think a helluva lot of more innocents are going to have to die soon, American innocents, before they see what I do, or something close to it.

Speaking for myself only, and especially since 9/11 and the terrible misdirection this country took since, whenever I see an American flag or variation of it these days, I feel as much contempt for it as I do another icon/symbol of evil in the past, the swastika. I hope I am not alone in such feelings and that others start seeing what I do if possible, before its too late. One such icon/symbol met a fiery end, as it should've. Is the same in store, and rightfully so, for our own? A part of me hopes not, but then I get up every day, and I turn on the TV, and I go outside, and I want to tear them all down, or burn them all to hell. Not because they are objects, but for what they've come to represent here in the year 2002. ___________OtherCat

http://www.angelfire.com/mn/othercat/statue.html

perhaps someone should get their eyes checked... our flag has stars and stripes on it...

:rolleyes:

perhaps someone should get their eyes checked... our flag has stars and stripes on it... heh, funny on more levels then you realize...

perhaps someone should get their eyes checked... our flag has stars and stripes on it...

heh, funny on more levels then you realize...

LOL.

How true.

The thing that's hilarious is that he's so clueless that the irony of that comment will be lost on him............

Well with all the hype from his other posting about this thread he was going to start I just had to come see it for myself. I had to see if it was worth the cross promoting.

As usual i found his views to be close minded,one sided,and very biased. However there were several (one might go as far as multiple) issues be brought up that were interesting,and made me think.

The beauty of it all is he didn't go to moveon.org or some other bullshit site and c/p what someone else believes.... he started and ending this whole post based on his opinion and his heart. I would rather see a zillion posts on here with personal feelings and views than one C/P crap article that someone seen somewhere that maybe kinda sorta mimicked what they believed.

I wont say it often but great post there FT. When someone writes like that if gives everyone a view of who they are as an individual.

Well with all the hype from his other posting about this thread he was going to start I just had to come see it for myself.

Yeah. "All the hype".

Two sentences saying --"I'm going to begin a thread about X".

:rolleyes:

The beauty of it all is he didn't go to moveon.org or some other bullshit site and c/p what someone else believes.... he started and ending this whole post based on his opinion and his heart. I would rather see a zillion posts on here with personal feelings and views than one C/P crap article that someone seen somewhere that maybe kinda sorta mimicked what they believed.

I wont say it often but great post there FT. When someone writes like that if gives everyone a view of who they are as an individual.

I did not write it.

It as written by a poster named *OtherCat* on angelfire.com in 2002.

I have to tell you that I have virtually the opposite view of cutting and pasting (as opposed to "what comes from some person's heart" stories) that you do. I like reading a good rant. I like people giving their opinions on the state of the nation and on politics.

Buuuuuut......a while back, you posted on a thread and gave a story about some little something or other that had happened in your own life. Someone else (SMW, I believe) commended you on making such a "personal" post.

At the time, all I could think was --"These anecdotal stories are so boring and tiresome. I'd rather read a political rant by someone, or an article by an established researcher/recognized authority or by some writer who can share his insight into the political process."

Not saying it to knock what you like. To each his own. I just happen to like cut and pasted articles from books or scholarly journals or news accounts far more (to put it mildly) than "personal" anecdotes.

At the time, all I could think was --"These anecdotal stories are so boring and tiresome. I'd rather read a political rant by someone, or an article by an established researcher/recognized authority or by some writer who can share his insight into the political process."

Not saying it to knock what you like. To each his own. I just happen to like cut and pasted articles from books or scholarly journals or news accounts far more (to put it mildly) than "personal" anecdotes.

Well like you say to each his own. A debate can be about anything. One can debate an article,or one can debate ones own personal views.

I come here to express myself,my opinions,my morals,my views and my own beliefs. If someone posts they think all welfare mothers should be sterilized. I would rather reply in a post why I think it is a good/bad idea. Not post something seven paragraphs long that someone else wrote about the subject. If someone else does... hey thats thier choice. But If I disagree so much with the C/P article,then why would i comment on the poster? Why not go to the source?

All in all you have a great mind. I do not agree much with what you say...but hey thats what makes this a great world.

I feel a lot of love in this room.
Can we all have a group hug?

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/196/a/e/_tighthug__by_darkmoon3636.gif

Irony?

I merely stated a fact...

just because someone is hallucinating doesn't really mean much to me... I'm just poking fun at the word choice. I wouldn't expect either of you to rise up to the level of respecting other posters... so continue with your hand-lathered jerking off of each other... with or without blindfolds... either is cool.

Quote: Decka; perhaps someone should get their eyes checked... our flag has stars and stripes on it...--Decka

Quote: 500lbguerilla;
heh, funny on more levels then you realize...


Quote: Freethinker; How true. The thing that's hilarious is that he's so clueless that the irony of that comment will be lost on him.

Irony?

I merely stated a fact...

See. I told you.

ROTFLOL.

Whenever I see a post by Freethinker I see a.........(insert witty comment here)

Whenever you see anything that you fear might confront or repudiate your carefully constructed notion of the USA as being the bestest, godliest, most kindly and benevolent nation on earth...................you close your eyes.

As all good Rightwing drones do.

Whenever you see anything that you fear might confront or repudiate your carefully constructed notion of the USA as being the bestest, godliest, most kindly and benevolent nation on earth...................you close your eyes.

As all good Rightwing drones do.

I may not have visitied as many web sites as you have to form the opinion you hold, but I have been to a lot of countries, a lot of those the worst countries on earth, and from that I believe that this country is the best country on Earth. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Yeah. "All the hype".

Two sentences saying --"I'm going to begin a thread about X".

:rolleyes:



I did not write it.

It as written by a poster named *OtherCat* on angelfire.com in 2002.

I have to tell you that I have virtually the opposite view of cutting and pasting (as opposed to "what comes from some person's heart" stories) that you do. I like reading a good rant. I like people giving their opinions on the state of the nation and on politics.


Buuuuuut......a while back, you posted on a thread and gave a story about some little something or other that had happened in your own life. Someone else (SMW, I believe) commended you on making such a "personal" post.

At the time, all I could think was --"These anecdotal stories are so boring and tiresome. I'd rather read a political rant by someone, or an article by an established researcher/recognized authority or by some writer who can share his insight into the political process."

Not saying it to knock what you like. To each his own. I just happen to like cut and pasted articles from books or scholarly journals or news accounts far more (to put it mildly) than "personal" anecdotes.

Because yer basically a callous,shallow little Liberal ranting Lackey
Toad,who follows the Crazies.You are also highly Imbalanced
and therefore the converse of lucid rationality.
Your Obsessiveness over all things that Go Republican in
the night,is nearing legendary proportion.
Of course there's a bona fide reason,you'd ruther cut & paste
than put into one's own words.You're truly not capable.
Have a long way ta goad,baford mastering the art of
Wordsmithing.And ALL the trappings and spoils that accompany.

Don't worry FreeThinker this is a common mental disassociation caused by severe psychosis. If you are treated you should stop seeing Nazi flags everywhere.

There are inusfficient psychotropic medications available to help the likes of FT & friends on the planet.

That was uncalled for.

Of course there's a bona fide reason,you'd ruther cut & paste than put into one's own words.You're truly not capable.
Have a long way ta goad,baford mastering the art of
Wordsmithing.And ALL the trappings and spoils that accompany.


Huh imagine that...

Originally Posted by Foolsworth
Of course there's a bona fide reason,you'd ruther cut & paste than put into one's own words.You're truly not capable.
Have a long way ta goad,baford mastering the art of
Wordsmithing.

Well gee.

I could never hope to achieve your mastery in that area.

:rolleyes:

One other thing, you dimwitted ass.

If you EVER want to compare the number of our OWN words that each of us -respectively- has posted to these boards, just let me fucking know.

Mmmmkay?

One other thing, you dimwitted ass.

If you EVER want to compare the number of our OWN words that each of us -respectively- has posted to these boards, just let me fucking know.

Mmmmkay?

I'm not quite sure what you meanie.
But if yer saying that since udders like to post links and use
the words of those they've read,than whom am I { You }
to feel at a loss for doing likewise.
Just because one sits in the peanut gallery don't done diddy mean,
they gotta act like all the other schlubs.

That was uncalled for.


Feeling left out?

Wow, somebody struck a nerve with FT... you would think those drugs would mellow you out.

There are so many other flags and countries, maybe you should try out another one. See if you have a problem with them. Just trying to help.

Thanks for the deep concern :rolleyes:

If I could secure a career/housing/amenities there, I would like to try a non-imperialist country........like Sweden perhaps.

Comparing the American flag to Nazi Germany's is laughable. Do you really want to compare what Nazi Germany did to what America has done? It's not even close.

whoops double post sorry

Yea Carbon I agree. .. I guess it makes him feel all warm and tingly inside to deal in extremes all the time... because he dislikes america, he will compare them to the Nazi's... which hated Jews and believed in a supreme race... I don't see that on the Constitution...

Yea Carbon I agree. .. I guess it makes him feel all warm and tingly inside to deal in extremes all the time... because he dislikes america, he will compare them to the Nazi's... which hated Jews and believed in a supreme race... I don't see that on the Constitution...

Think of a michael moore caricature - a fat, semi-bearded, impotent, mean male (not a man, but again a caricature) - doing whatever possible to irritate those unseen others in any way possible. Henpecked and dominated by a female, incapable of striking out even on the dog, he lashes out in the only place where nobody else is boss. The Nazis would appeal to that type of individual - sady inferior, always flaccid, constantly bullied by others - a chance to somehow feel superior to something, anything at all, so desperate is that caricature.

Seeing a swastika in the stars & stripes? But of course!

Comparing the American flag to Nazi Germany's is laughable.

It is the mindset behind the incessant display of the flag that is being compared. I don't think you understood the post. Or maybe youjust failed to read all of it.

Do you really want to compare what Nazi Germany did to what America has done?

I don't think that was the primary impetus of the writer of the article. She is comparing many of the ways that people in Germany responded to Hitler's inexorable rise to supreme power and his institution of fascism to the way that the sheep in ths country are reacting to the creeping fascism we now are experiencing under BushCo.

It's not even close.

I think that the writer is correct in pointing out that there are certain chilling parallels.

Review the following sentences, and note the unmistakeable similarities;

""The stark red, black, and white of the Nazi swastika was virtually everywhere back then in Germany." (note; in exactly the same way that the red white and blue of the US flag is in this country today)

"The leader (Hitler) and his henchmen wore it as a pin at times" (like Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, et al do today with the American flag now).

"It was on flags and jewelry and dinner dishes and pistols and hung/displayed in windows, you name it, that swastika was everywhere." (note; in exactly the same way that it is in America today)

"It was an authoritarian regime, it practiced basically similar policies that we are today (IMO), and the swastika and swastika flag, while revered and treated with so much respect at the times by the powers that be (and ordinary sheepish masses), was seen everywhere." (note; in exactly the same way that it is in America today)

Oh my gosh! they have their flag shown!! they are proud of who they are!!! NAZIS!!!!!!

... because he dislikes america, he will compare them to the Nazi's... which hated Jews and believed in a supreme race...

Unlike the ConservaFascists, who hate the evil "wrong gawd" Muslims (well, NOW they hate the Muslims. Before that, it was the *evil anti-gawd Communists*. But the USSR folded, so a new boogeyman had to be located. The RightWing's choice was the Muslims) and who believe in the absolute supremacy of America and Americans.



I don't see that on the Constitution...

The Constitution has little to no meaning for the ConservaFascists, or with what they are transforming this country into.

____________________________

“I don’t give a goddamn,” Bush retorted. “I’m the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way.”

“Mr. President,” one aide in the meeting said. “There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution.”

“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” Bush screamed back. “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”

Think of a michael moore caricature - a fat, semi-bearded, impotent, mean male (not a man, but again a caricature) - doing whatever possible to irritate those unseen others in any way possible. Henpecked and dominated by a female, incapable of striking out even on the dog, he lashes out in the only place where nobody else is boss. The Nazis would appeal to that type of individual -

You're just a tad off base, sir.

I am not fat, I do not have a beard, I am not impotent, I say what I say about the ConservaFascists as observation more than with purely the intent to irritate, every person who knows me would, I honestly believe, be quick to say that I am a very manly sort, my wife neither dominates nor henpecks me (we have a very equitable sharing of power and responsibility in our marriage of 34 years) , I do not own a dog, and for the past 24 years I have run my own business.

And the Nazis (and their modern day successors, the ConservaFascists of the rightwing in America) not only do not appeal to me, they are extremely repulsive to me.

So...............just a wee bit off the mark.

You're just a tad off base, sir.

I am not fat, I do not have a beard, I am not impotent, I say what I say about the ConservaFascists as observation more than with purely the intent to irritate, every person who knows me would, I honestly believe, be quick to say that I am a very manly sort, my wife neither dominates nor henpecks me (we have a very equitable sharing of power and responsibility in our marriage of 34 years) , I do not own a dog, and for the past 24 years I have run my own business.

And the Nazis (and their modern day successors, the ConservaFascists of the rightwing in America) not only do not appeal to me, they are extremely repulsive to me.

So...............just a wee bit off the mark.
Why don't you post a picture, FT? Most people here have, and it's nice to put a face to a name. Speaking of, real life names are nice too. Mine's Casey.

... So...............just a wee bit off the mark.

Certainly not the first time, probably not the last.

I may not have visitied as many web sites as you have to form the opinion you hold, but I have been to a lot of countries, a lot of those the worst countries on earth, and from that I believe that this country is the best country on Earth. You have your opinion, I have mine.

I think that just because other countries you have visited are so corrupted (mostly with the help of the US), that they seem a shit hole... That does not make the US the best country in the world, it only makes it to be not so deep into that same shit hole. It is not among the worst of all, it is just not as bad as those you've visited.

Can you say delusion? (If I didn't spell it right, I don't care, so don't bother to tell me)


perhaps someone should get their eyes checked... our flag has stars and stripes on it...

:rolleyes:

It is the mindset behind the incessant display of the flag that is being compared. I don't think you understood the post. Or maybe youjust failed to read all of it.

Please don't insult my intelligence. We both know why the author chose to compare the American Flag to the Swastika. If you want to live in La-La Land because you liked the message the article produced, then you're not as much of a Freethinker as you claim to be.

I don't think that was the primary impetus of the writer of the article. She is comparing many of the ways that people in Germany responded to Hitler's inexorable rise to supreme power and his institution of fascism to the way that the sheep in ths country are reacting to the creeping fascism we now are experiencing under BushCo.

She specifically picked Nazi Germany because of the negativity that comes with making that comparison.

""The stark red, black, and white of the Nazi swastika was virtually everywhere back then in Germany." (note; in exactly the same way that the red white and blue of the US flag is in this country today)

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6325/tae1344bt2.jpg

Should we warn Canada about the chilling parallels they have with Nazi Germany as well? I'm sure they'd be mortified.

"The leader (Hitler) and his henchmen wore it as a pin at times" (like Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfeld, et al do today with the American flag now).

Yep, we're on the road to facism because politicians wear tiny American Flag pins. Chilling.

"It was on flags and jewelry and dinner dishes and pistols and hung/displayed in windows, you name it, that swastika was everywhere." (note; in exactly the same way that it is in America today)

"It was an authoritarian regime, it practiced basically similar policies that we are today (IMO), and the swastika and swastika flag, while revered and treated with so much respect at the times by the powers that be (and ordinary sheepish masses), was seen everywhere." (note; in exactly the same way that it is in America today)

She keeps on making this claim without any proof. I don't see it. There isn't a single American Flag on my street; I had to walk around for about 5 minutes before I found my first one.

Yep, real similar policies. Wasn't aware we were actively rounding up people and sending them to death camps.

Yep, real similar policies. Wasn't aware we were actively rounding up people and sending them to death camps.
Oh, you haven't heard?!?! Our death camps are the worst of all; they're "voluntary". We're killing OUR OWN people in Iraq, and then you have to wonder about the Iraqis themselves - they're getting indiscriminately SLAUGHTERED by (according to the latest Dop figure) the millions. I mean, just the other day we planted another roadside bomb that killed 30 WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

Welcome to Germany circa 1942, pal. Sig Heil.

That does not make the US the best country in the world, it only makes it to be not so deep into that same shit hole. It is not among the worst of all, it is just not as bad as those you've visited.
Yeah, Trav - haven't you been to the nice parts of Bosnia? I hear the ethnic cleansing is really a sight to behold in September. I was just thinking about going to Eastern Europe, renting a Russian car, and hobnobbing with the rank and file militant types so I can call myself "worldly" in front of the Starbucks crowd. It's funny, though. Here we have a man who takes pride likening our country to Nazi Germany (via his profound depiction of the moon landing, no less) and where do you think this (undoubtedly foreign transplant) resides? Hmmmm, I wonder.

Why don't you post a picture, FT?

Because it's hard to defend against redneck snipers. Period.

Most people here have, and it's nice to put a face to a name.

How fucking speeeeeeeeeeeeshhhuuuuul.

Speaking of, real life names are nice too. Mine's Casey.

Wow!!

A little toady to the status-quo and the ConservaFascist leadership dares to post his real first name?!?!?!?!?!?

Incredible!

We both know why the author chose to compare the American Flag to the Swastika.

She made that particular comparison because of the many similarities.

She specifically picked Nazi Germany because of the negativity that comes with making that comparison.

Nothing could be further from the truth. She chose Nazi Germany because of the numerous obvious similarities.

Today's rightwing ConservaCorporatists are the modern day reincarnation of the fascists of Nazi Germany.

Please Google---*14 defining characteristics of fascist regimes*.

Bush and his cabal, unmistakeably, share ALL 14 characteristics with the fascists of Germany during the 1930's and 1940's.

Go ahead. Read something on the subject. Learn something. I promise it will not hurt you. Ignore, for once in your life, what the far-Right ConservaFascists urge you to do, and think for yourself.

Because it's hard to defend against redneck snipers. Period.
Don't flatter yourself FT, I doubt anyone here wishes you any harm.


How fucking speeeeeeeeeeeeshhhuuuuul.
Ugly huh?

Wow!!

A little toady to the status-quo and the ConservaFascist leadership dares to post his real first name?!?!?!?!?!?
Borg's a conservative? Oh yeah, I forget everyone is right of you (and wrong in your view of the world)

Incredible!
I would agree, this is an incredible post

btw... I'm Pete, I would tell you my last name but I'm afraid Hugo Chavez might have magic "dust" put in my corn flakes. :rolleyes:

btw... I'm Pete

Wow!!

ANOTHER toady to the status-quo and to the ConservaFascist leadership dares to post his real first name?!?!?

Will wonders never cease..........?!?!?!?

Hush! Hugo may be reading this!

You want to get me killed?

erm... disregard that last part... I think I know the answer. :(

Why don't you post a picture, FT? Most people here have, and it's nice to put a face to a name. Speaking of, real life names are nice too. Mine's Casey.

I would rather that some of the hate mongering nut-jobs on here not know my name.

This is what can happen (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/man-burns-down-trailer-in-online-feud/20070726155309990001) when you do that.

.

I noticed FT dodged Canada's flag showing... figures

And his "14 signs of Nazi germany" are so vague it is laughable. I have gone through them and pretty much EVERY country fits into at least 12 of them

Bush and his cabal, unmistakeably, share ALL 14 characteristics with the fascists of Germany during the 1930's and 1940's.You could also find 14 common characteristics between a zebra and a cockroach.

Why don't you post a picture, FT? Most people here have, and it's nice to put a face to a name.
Don't do it, FT. You wouldn't want the 'Black Helicopters' to increase the number of flights over your house now...would you?

You could also find 14 common characteristics between a zebra and a cockroach.

exactly.. and might I had historians have held the belief that the Nazi's had a pretty ordinary, normal government... besides that whole "supreme race" and "hating jews" thing... I know that's a big part of it, but you can have the EXACT same gov't as nazi germany did and NOT be a Nazi.. you can just choose not to have certain beleifs and force them onto people.

How fucking speeeeeeeeeeeeshhhuuuuul.
Wow - what a cock you are...
A little toady to the status-quo and the ConservaFascist leadership dares to post his real first name?!?!?!?!?!?

Incredible!
So now Borg's a wingnut, eh? Pffft - :rolleyes:

You know, I'm startin' to think you and Dop have a lot more in common than I originally thought.

You could also find 14 common characteristics between a zebra and a cockroach.
No shit...

A little toady to the status-quo and the ConservaFascist leadership dares to post his real first name?!?!?!?!?!?

Incredible! ??? Do not attack the Borg, resistance is futile.

You're starting to go off the deep end FT.

Whats really a problem is that you are becoming an ingrained partisan. You no longer seem to care about facts. While I see many facts that support some of your positions and even agree with some, you are becoming what you say you hate. You are attcking Borg for telling you to chill out and become personal with those you are communicating with. 1 your attacking someone for nothing other then not going along with you, 2 you are calling them names that don't apply, 3 you are attemping to defend a position that is purely opinion based. Your not argueing fact, but opinions. Argueing opinions makes about as much sense as a rhino fucking a rat terrier.

Notice how many on the boards taunt you? Well for one most of them act like assholes 75% of the time but they also know you will go crazy and post wierd rants in response.

Freethinkiner
Are you posting this for any particular reason???

Freethinker
Are you posting this for any particular reason???

Yes. I believe that once in a while people in this country need to experience something other than the incessant **rah-rah USA!!, we're God's nation!!, we're the Bestest!!!!** mantra they're so used to being force-fed.

I thought the perceptions of the person who wrote that rant (OtherCat) were interesting and thought-provoking.

She tells of all the myriad ways she sees the masses in this country expressing their regretable *My Country Right Or Wrong* ideology; of how she sees them expressing their mindlessly subservient flag worship; of how she sees them exhibiting all the outward signs of the pro-Corporate, pro-war, pro-status quo brainwashing that they've been subjected to since birth.

America's Pollyanna-ist fantasies being bitch-slapped by a bit of hard-nosed rationalism and sanity; I love it.

Yes. I believe that once in a while people in this country need to experience something other than the incessant **rah-rah USA!!, we're God's nation!!, we're the Bestest!!!!** mantra they're so used to being force-fed.

I thought the perceptions of the person who wrote that rant (OtherCat) were interesting and thought-provoking.

She tells of all the myriad ways she sees the masses in this country expressing their regretable *My Country Right Or Wrong* ideology; of how she sees them expressing their mindlessly subservient flag worship; of how she sees them exhibiting all the outward signs of the pro-Corporate, pro-war, pro-status quo brainwashing that they've been subjected to since birth.

America's Pollyanna-ist fantasies being bitch-slapped by a bit of hard-nosed rationalism and sanity; I love it.


I see.

Were you interested in any other view but the one you quoted, as being the only valid one?

Were you interested in any other view but the one you quoted, as being the only valid one?

I cannot parse that query, as it is phrased.

The *"as being the only valid one"* portion is not clear to me.

Are you saying other views were the only valid ones? Are you asking if I thought OtherCat's view was the only valid one? Are you asking if I thought my own view was the only valid one?

I will be happy to answer it if you will find some way to state it a bit clearer.

I cannot parse that query, as it is phrased.

The *"as being the only valid one"* portion is not clear to me.

Are you saying other views were the only valid ones? Are you asking if I thought OtherCat's view was the only valid one? Are you asking if I thought my own view was the only valid one?

I will be happy to answer it if you will find some way to state it a bit clearer.

I'm wondering how open you are to other's viewpoints that might oppose the original one you posted.

Just getting clarification because this response, "Yes. I believe that once in a while people in this country need to experience something other than the incessant rah-rah USA!!, we're God's nation!!, we're the Bestest!!!! mantra they're so used to being force-fed.", seems to say that your motive was to enlighten others........and you were not interested in another viewpoint that might oppose Othercat's.

... I believe that once in a while people in this country need to experience something other than the incessant **rah-rah USA!!, we're God's nation!!, we're the Bestest!!!!** mantra they're so used to being force-fed. ...

You've just summed up your 8500+ posts in one sentence. Have you ever written anything postive about this country?

I'm wondering how open you are to other's viewpoints that might oppose the original one you posted.


Quite open.

Should anyone want to post something serious that takes issue with OtherCat's observations and inferences, (and I should point out that posts such as Decka's childish --"Nunh uuuuunh, nuh unnnnh!!!"-- mewling will not be considered by me to comprise the slightest attempt at real rebuttal) I would be extremely eager to examine it.

Have you ever written anything postive about this country?

Me?

No.

Not that I recall. Why?

The vast river of mainstream Media whitebread propaganda that the sheep are treated to 24/7 takes care of all the praise and positive pieces about America.

Quite open.

Should anyone want to post something serious that takes issue with OtherCat's observations and inferences, (and I should point out that posts such as Decka's childish --"Nunh uuuuunh, nuh unnnnh!!!"-- mewling will not be considered by me to comprise the slightest attempt at real rebuttal) I would be extremely eager to examine it.


Well, it's always hard to argue with an opinion, like OtherCat has, especially when much of what her opinion posted is based on inaccuracies and assumptions as opposed to facts.

I'll be back though....

:)

Thank you for your replies.

Hey FT..

Which one of us is the raving, paranoid, conspiracy-laden, senile, disrespectful idiot?

It sure ain't me... can you find me a quote of what you claim I said?

Hey FT..

Which one of us is the raving, paranoid, conspiracy-laden, senile, disrespectful idiot?

Ok, I'll take a shot at that question.

Raving and disrespectul are the only two that I'd say fit me.

As for you, the one that fits best is *idiot*..........you seem to me merely an ignorant, superstitious person. But at least you have around 100 million or more of your fellow citizens for company.

Ouch.

As for you, the one that fits best is *idiot*..........you seem to me merely an ignorant, superstitious person.
This coming from someone who sees Black Helicopters flying overhead.

FT, I'd invite you out to lunch, but...you're already there.

wow:lolhit:

This coming from someone who sees Black Helicopters flying overhead.

I have never posited the existence of "Black Helicopters".

And I have said many times, what the ConservaFascists are perpetrating is no 'conspiracy'.

Yeah, you must be confusing him with Dop.

The American Flag.

What does this symbolize to Americans?

Certainly not those elected as our representatives or whatever president in office.

It represents what this nation stands for. Liberty, Freedom of Expression, Equal rights for all people.

I do not know what reality Othercat lives in, but it's not any reality that I've experienced. When I see my flag, it represents a beautiful country and people of all faiths, races and backrounds who are committed to helping each other and to preserving the liberties our Constitution has guaranteed us. I love that flag and all it represents and when I see others who wear our flag, I understand that they have the same love of Liberty and Justice that I do.

Othercat needs to reexamine her world, I fear she is living in a state of paranoia which may endanger others someday.

Ok, I'll take a shot at that question.

Raving and disrespectul are the only two that I'd say fit me.

As for you, the one that fits best is *idiot*..........you seem to me merely an ignorant, superstitious person. But at least you have around 100 million or more of your fellow citizens for company.

I didn't mean "look at what I said about you and tell me what fits me"... I'm talking about the "Nuh uhhh" BS that you claim I said... I wanted a quote about that... Sorry if you misunderstood.

and nice way to be completely ignorant yourself while calling me the very same. You are so paranoid of America, why don't you go peak between the blinds to see if the government is outside in black sedans across the street keeping taps on you. We can agree to disagree, and agree on one thing. We both think the other is an idiot. The difference is, 99% of the people probably agree with me, but go ahead and hold down the Alamo, Custer.

and nice way to be completely ignorant yourself while calling me the very same. You are so paranoid of America, why don't you go peak between the blinds to see if the government is outside in black sedans across the street keeping taps on you. We can agree to disagree, and agree on one thing. We both think the other is an idiot. The difference is, 99% of the people probably agree with me, but go ahead and hold down the Alamo, Custer.One isn't paranoid "of" anything, "peak" should be "peek", "taps" should be "tabs", and Custer wasn't at the Alamo.

Nice job calling someone else an ignorant idiot. :eek:

One isn't paranoid "of" anything, "peak" should be "peek", "taps" should be "tabs", and Custer wasn't at the Alamo.

Nice job calling someone else an ignorant idiot. :eek:

THE GRAMMAR POLICE!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!

First off... If you aren't "paranoid of America".. then what are you, "paranoid America?"... I'm always up for new grammar.

The "peak/peek" thing is right.

I meant to say "taps".. as in "wire-taps".. I know you can "keep tabs" on someone, but i meant it in a different way, sorry if you misunderstood. "Tabs" deals with location, "Taps" deals with communication.

And as for Custer, I merely said his name for popularity factor. I guess you can "technically" point me out "wrong" on that one if you take away my sarcasm and inclusion on the matter.

I liked what Oldphart said... "Delta is ready when you are"... LMAO, go for it FT.

I do not know what reality Othercat lives in...

I fully believe you.

You and the vast majority of the rest of the herd ---like the powers-that-be INTENDED--- have blinders on when it comes to anything that exposes the reality of the people running this country and their agenda.

And how those people run the country, the agenda they pursue, makes this country, to a very large degree, what it is.

How can America be the "great" and "freedom loving" and "beautiful" country you perceive it to be when the leaders that the people of America have chosen are the antithesis of all those things?

How can America be the "great" and "freedom loving" and "beautiful" country you perceive it to be when it is the leading exporter of terrorism in the world?

How can it be the "beautiful" land of "Liberty" that you perceive it to be when the chosen (extreme Rightwing) leaders are busily dismantling and abrogating those very *freedoms* and *liberties our Constitution has guaranteed us* that you speak of.........?!?!?!?

... ,but it's not any reality that I've experienced.

Again, I fully believe you.

Othercat needs to reexamine her world

To me is seems that she is deeply examining it, while the vast majority have never honestly examined it at all.

I fear she is living in a state of paranoia which may endanger others someday.

The extremely small number of people who have looked behind the curtain and seen the sham for what it is have no power to hurt anyone.

The ConservaCorporatist political leadership ---that the American Public has given the power to control the most powerful nation on earth--- who have this nation's massive nuclear arsenal in their possession are the ones who truly endanger others; they endanger the entire planet.