I'm sure you've all heard of the story:

Five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor
They were found guilty of deliberately infecting about 400 children in Libya with HIV/Aids, and have been in custody for eight years in a complicated legal and political saga.


11 JULY 2007

Libya's Supreme Court upholds the death penalty against the medics after an appeal - however there are hopes that a compensation deal reportedly agreed with the families could see the death penalties commuted to prison terms and lead to the medics' release.
17 JULY 2007

Libya's top legal body, the High Judicial Council, overrules the Supreme Court decision and commutes the death penalty to life in prison, after relatives accept compensation reportedly worth $1m per child. The move could see all six transferred to Bulgaria to serve out their sentences.
24 JULY 2007
The six are released from Libyan custody following a deal with the European Union to improve EU-Libya relations and a visit to Tripoli by Cecilia Sarkozy, the wife of France's new president. The six travel by plane to Bulgaria, accompanied by the European Union's external affairs commissioner, Benita Ferrero-Waldner, and Mrs Sarkozy.

Source: BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6192439.stm)

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In a period of 14 days, the court's verdict changes from the death penalty, to life in prison, to releasing the guilty prisoners?!!
If the case were of a Libyan doctor and 5 Libyan nurses purposely infecting children in Bulgaria with AIDS I wonder how the Bulgarians would have acted then!

This is sickening. These are children. If I were the judge, I'd tell the EU to screw that deal and I'd go ahead and make sure these criminals get the death penalty.

You are assuming that the Libyan court acted on the facts and not a political basis. I think the truth is that the prisoners did not infect anyone, but instead were treating children who were infected with the HIV virus. If they did not infect the children, then the children may well have been infected at birth because their mothers were infected. That would mean that either the mothers or fathers were having extra-maritial sex or pre-maritial sex; or that the blood supply was contaminated because testing was not performed and either the children or one of their parents had a transfusion; or possibly one of their parents was infected from a contaminated hypodermic needle. The last two would imply that standards in Libyan Hospitals were not up to reasonable healthy standards. The government might be blamed for that, and it is easier to blame the foreigners than to admit that your own institutions are to blame. The first option would imply immorality had taken place.

This way, the government of Libya can appear merciful and generous without admitting their own mistakes, at least in their own press. What would the proper response from the west be to this? I think any foreign doctor or nurse should refuse to help treat anyone in Libya. Then, when the children are still dying of AIDS, there will be no one to blame but the Libyan health care system.

You are assuming that the Libyan court acted on the facts and not a political basis. I think the truth is that the prisoners did not infect anyone, but instead were treating children who were infected with the HIV virus. If they did not infect the children, then the children may well have been infected at birth because their mothers were infected. That would mean that either the mothers or fathers were having extra-maritial sex or pre-maritial sex; or that the blood supply was contaminated because testing was not performed and either the children or one of their parents had a transfusion; or possibly one of their parents was infected from a contaminated hypodermic needle. The last two would imply that standards in Libyan Hospitals were not up to reasonable healthy standards. The government might be blamed for that, and it is easier to blame the foreigners than to admit that your own institutions are to blame. The first option would imply immorality had taken place.

This way, the government of Libya can appear merciful and generous without admitting their own mistakes, at least in their own press. What would the proper response from the west be to this? I think any foreign doctor or nurse should refuse to help treat anyone in Libya. Then, when the children are still dying of AIDS, there will be no one to blame but the Libyan health care system.

I'm not assuming that they're acting on facts, I know that they're acting on a political basis, which is why I think it's sickening.

There could be many reasons, as you pointed out above, to why the children had HIV in the first place; however, these nurses and that doctor were found guilty of purposely contaminating the children with the AIDS virus.

I'm not defending the Libyan government in any way as I think that what they did was wrong. They're obviously seeking what you mentioned: looking good for the press.
Instead of letting politics influence the court's decision (money, class, ethnicity and skin color have a big influence), they should be absolutely objective in their trial.

This is sickening. These are children. If I were the judge, I'd tell the EU to screw that deal and I'd go ahead and make sure these criminals get the death penalty.

I apologize if I misunderstood your comment. I had assumed that you were calling for the death penalty for the Doctors and Nurses who were released.

I apologize if I misunderstood your comment. I had assumed that you were calling for the death penalty for the Doctors and Nurses who were released.

You didn't misunderstand. I was calling for the death penalty.
It's not about being with or against this penalty. I just think these people should get maximum punishment.
For those against it: at least life in prison!

You didn't misunderstand. I was calling for the death penalty.
It's not about being with or against this penalty. I just think these people should get maximum punishment.
For those against it: at least life in prison!

But Innocent what Imagineer is trying to say is that on the surface these people have been found guilty of infecting these children with aids. What if that is not an accurate scenario?

What if these were foreign doctors and nurses who were accused and found guilty but were set up.

The government there is suspect. I can assure you that had my girlfriend not left there she would have been executed for treason because of the way she taught in school. Ghadafi and his government are not exactly on the up and up.

Why would you execute possibly innocent health care workers?

But Innocent what Imagineer is trying to say is that on the surface these people have been found guilty of infecting these children with aids. What if that is not an accurate scenario?

What if these were foreign doctors and nurses who were accused and found guilty but were set up.

The government there is suspect. I can assure you that had my girlfriend not left there she would have been executed for treason because of the way she taught in school. Ghadafi and his government are not exactly on the up and up.

Why would you execute possibly innocent health care workers?

I'd execute them if they were found 100% guilty.
I couldn't - and it would be narrowminded of me to do so - assume that they could possibly be innocent.
While the Libyan government may be corrupt in many ways, I don't think that it's after Westerners just to execute those who are trying to help children. They probably found them guilty with good reason. Tests must have been involved, as it is a medical case.

Let me ask you this, though.... Do you think if these medics were actually guilty, that they deserve maximum punishment? Or should they be released even if guilty?

I'd execute them if they were found 100% guilty.
I couldn't - and it would be narrowminded of me to do so - assume that they could possibly be innocent.
While the Libyan government may be corrupt in many ways, I don't think that it's after Westerners just to execute those who are trying to help children. They probably found them guilty with good reason. Tests must have been involved, as it is a medical case.

Let me ask you this, though.... Do you think if these medics were actually guilty, that they deserve maximum punishment? Or should they be released even if guilty?
But we don't know any facts or details about the circumstances so you can just execute people without first looking at the system that found them guilty. I do not trust their government. I do not know anything about their circumstances. The fact that the government went from kill them to set them free would indicate to me that things are suspicious to say the least.

The other highly suspicious thing here is that the families are willing to take compensation for their dead child. That is not likely. Unless of course they are being strong-armed for whatever reason.

I don't think it matters whether they were Western or European or Eastern. I think that may have become an issue because the whole mess leaked out of country. Maybe these babies were injected with AIDs but by whom.

Some foreign aid agencies just came into their country, took healthy kids and injected them with AIDs Does that not sound highly suspicious to you. They would risk their life to experiment in a foreign country.

No. And tests can be faked. Anything can be faked these days.

If these foreign aid people are guilty they should be given the maximum penalty.

Now having said that Innocent, you have to understand that the country where I live does not have the death penalty. I personally do not support the death penalty. So had Canadians been involved my country would have petitioned to have them sent home rather than executed. That does not always happen unless the country cooperates. They would not however have been set free upon arrival.

And neither would most countries set them free if they were guilty. That's why this whole thing is suspect.

But we don't know any facts or details about the circumstances so you can just execute people without first looking at the system that found them guilty. I do not trust their government. I do not know anything about their circumstances. The fact that the government went from kill them to set them free would indicate to me that things are suspicious to say the least.

The other highly suspicious thing here is that the families are willing to take compensation for their dead child. That is not likely. Unless of course they are being strong-armed for whatever reason.

I don't think it matters whether they were Western or European or Eastern. I think that may have become an issue because the whole mess leaked out of country. Maybe these babies were injected with AIDs but by whom.

Some foreign aid agencies just came into their country, took healthy kids and injected them with AIDs Does that not sound highly suspicious to you. They would risk their life to experiment in a foreign country.

No. And tests can be faked. Anything can be faked these days.

If these foreign aid people are guilty they should be given the maximum penalty.

Now having said that Innocent, you have to understand that the country where I live does not have the death penalty. I personally do not support the death penalty. So had Canadians been involved my country would have petitioned to have them sent home rather than executed. That does not always happen unless the country cooperates. They would not however have been set free upon arrival.

And neither would most countries set them free if they were guilty. That's why this whole thing is suspect.

What reason would the Libyan government have to hold medical workers in their jail for 5 years? Just to go through this whole mess?

What reason would the Libyan government have to hold medical workers in their jail for 5 years? Just to go through this whole mess?

No not to go through this whole mess but to cover any potential problems within their system from being revealed to the world....

I took a part of the case from Wikepedia to illustrate a possible problem with this particular case:

The epidemic at El-Fath and the subsequent trials are highly politicized and controversial. The medics say that they were forced to confess under torture and that they are innocent, and some of the world's foremost HIV experts have written to courts and the Libyan government on their behalf, blaming the epidemic on poor hygienic practices in the hospital.[3] The epidemic is the largest documented outbreak of HIV within a hospital in history, and it was the first time AIDS became a public issue in Libya. Two of the world's foremost HIV experts supported the medics' case, and reaction to their convictions was swift, with a number of appeals from scientific and human rights organizations, and various official condemnations of the verdict along with diplomatic initiatives. With each new result, the case drew more international attention.

I have been raised to question government or indeed any institution and it's actions. It's about self protection.

Bad things happen to good people.

What reason would the Libyan government have to hold medical workers in their jail for 5 years? Just to go through this whole mess?

to save face and to show the world thier country is not HIV ridden for whatever reason. I have a hard time believing doctors from any country would infect children with HIV intentionally.

Innocent Sweety, ask yourself what the reaction of the Libyan people would be if they found out that the government run hospital was being run so poorly that hundreds of children were infected with AIDS because of poor sanitation practices. I think you would agree that they would be very angry, and that they might think that the maximum penalty should be applied to the government officials responsible for running the hospital.
Now try to imagine what you would do if you were one of those officials. Would you try to blame the foreign doctors and nurses? Might you imprison and torture them until they confessed, and then put them on trial and convict them? This would insure you continue to hold your job, and that no one would blame you. Then you can mercifully release them to deflect the anger of the Europeans, and just maybe because you would have trouble living with yourself if you ordered the executions of innocent people.