I thought I would post this in its own thread since some among us dont think Saint Chavez could do something like this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070723/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_chavez

ROFLMFAO!!!!

Way to go Trav! You got it right for a change!

:lolhit:

I am so tired of you two bitching at each other.

I am so tired of you two bitching at each other.

What do you think....
Should I just put him on ignore and be done with it?

i don't give a flying fuck what chavez does. let venezuela solve its own problems.

Anyone say he's right? or are you going to say he's wrong

I don't think it's really our place to judge Venezuela by our own standards. Political realities often trump political ideology. Strongmen like Chavez and (dare I say it! I did!) Saddam Hussein are needed to keep unstable regions in line while a robust bureaucracy is developed. Whatever these men do to keep order in their countries is a necessary part of doing business in that part of the world.

Once the bureaucracy is developed, it's our job as promoters of democracy to encourage it and keep the strongman from destroying the bureaucracy in the name of power. Or from destroying it ourselves, as we famously did in Iraq not too long ago. Bureaucracy is a step in the process of state building, and it necessarily comes between elections and strongman governing.

yes, but strongmen do not willingly give up power via elections.

They die, don't they?

not normally. usually the dictators live longer then anyone. how many dictators have you heard of dying of cancer or a stroke while still in their prime?

That's a good thing. Keeps things on an even keel. The longer the dictator lives, the wiser he gets, and the more stable his leadership. After he does die, usually someone better at ruling succeeds him.

so you are pro dictator then?

Well, I'm all for President Bush.

please don't tell me you believe he is a dictator. Only the thickest skulls actually think that.

No, I was being flippant. Dictators have their place in the grand scheme of things, and it's often better to let nature run its course than to make uninspired and hare-brained moves to bring democracy (read: chaos) to conflicted states. Stepping in to prevent genocide is one thing, interfering with politically incorrect ruling methods is something else. Which is why the war on terror should have continued in Sudan, not Iraq.

Sudan? wtf

In case you haven't heard, there's a genocide going on there. I don't blame you for not knowing, it hasn't exactly been publicized.

I have heard, but how that will stop global terrorism I do not know.

I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty fucking terrified if death squads rolled through my neighborhood.

I think we have differnt interpretations of the 'war on terror". I think it is to stop terror agaisnt americans, not everyone on earth.

Too bad. The amount of goodwill engendered by actually doing something useful for a foreign country might be enough to forestall a few terror attacks on our soil.

LMAO, yes, Al Qeada keeps a tally of our good will vs. our bad will and uses it to decide when we should be struck :rolleyes: just when I thought you were starting to make some sense.

Al Qaeda's finished, isn't it?

No, you say? You mean Iraq wasn't... Oh! No Al Qaeda in Iraq? Well why were we there then?

I don't even know what you are babbling about anymore. You went from dictators to Sudan to good will to Iraq.

It's called a discussion, trav. Get used to it.

OK, I will have to go back and trace how we wound up with good will in Sudan stopping the war in Iraq from Chavez booting dissenters out of Venenzuela

I drew the parallels in the discussion between the two rulers, using Iraq as an example of how we screwed up a country on it's way to becoming a viable state.

Iraq was not on its way to being anything but a continuation of itself.

Had it been given enough time to mature, it sure could have. Missiles and invasions do terrible things to bureaucracy.

That is the worst plan I have ever heard of.

"we will just sit back and let them strangle themselves to death with red tape"

If that were the case there would be no USA anymore.

That's how it goes. Governments evolve gradually. But as it is, the drama I illustrated is playing forth already the world over. Here's a vid illustrating growth in the parts of the world you don't hear about every day.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/92

Can you imagine Roosevelt in 1941 "I think our best strategy is to just wait these guys out, one day their beauracracy will be so big and un-manageable they will have to surrender!"

Are you comparing Iraq of last decade to WW2 Japan?

Or are you just being flippant?

Honestly I have no clue :@@:

You should watch the vid, it's excellent, and devoid of political leanings. It's lengthy, but very much worth it, and easy to follow.

I thought I would post this in its own thread since some among us dont think Saint Chavez could do something like this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070723/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_chavezLooks like Chavez is gettin' himself a Patriot Act! Keepin' up with the Jones...

Looks like Chavez is gettin' himself a Patriot Act! Keepin' up with the Jones...

Apples and oranges... no real comparison (and if you think so... you are sorely mistaken)

Chavez will mutate his country into a dictatorship within the next 5 to 10 years.... just watch.

Apples and oranges... no real comparison (and if you think so... you are sorely mistaken)

Chavez will mutate his country into a dictatorship within the next 5 to 10 years.... just watch.

Think it will take that long? Somebody might take him out dancing before a decade is out unless he's got total control.

Apples and oranges... no real comparison (and if you think so... you are sorely mistaken)
Apples and oranges have many similarities. (and if you don't think so... you are sorely mistaken)

Apples and oranges have many similarities. (and if you don't think so... you are sorely mistaken)

Okay, I'll bite. Show me the similarities between what Chavez is doing and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

BTW would we not have expelled Chavez on his last visit to the U.S. if our policies are so similar?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=060921201049.4stienzo&show_article=1

Okay, I'll bite. Show me the similarities between what Chavez is doing and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_ActWell, to start with, I was sorta joking. But the joke stems from the similarities as they relate to concerns re overreaching governmental involvement in the erosion of civil liberties. How many times have we heard Fox "News" people bitch about treason whan someone has criticised the current administration's policies? A whole bushel! (...in keeping with our fruit theme.)

BTW would we not have expelled Chavez on his last visit to the U.S. if our policies are so similar?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=060921201049.4stienzo&show_article=1
People were calling for just such a thing in Conservative news commentaries.