http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/part1.htm

Shouldn't we be asking some hard ass questions about how we went from THIS - to the passage of the PATRIOT AXE.
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.....But even though the Declaration built upon generations of American and British experience, it went far beyond those ideas, and, in fact, as many modern writers have noted, it is a radical statement in its view of the purposes of government. As nation-states began emerging in Europe in the late middle ages, the common assumption had been that governments existed to ensure order and protect the stability of society. But the Declaration of Independence, while not denying the need for order, asserts that the PRIME purpose of government is to PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL. For the first time, it is the individual and not the society that is paramount, and the success of government is to be measured not by how well society is regulated, but by how FREE THE INDIVIDUAL IS FROM GOVERMENT.....

Name me one right you have lost, or one freedom you no longer have becasue of the patriot act. How has your life changed since it was passed? What can you no longer do?

Travh I can't believe I'm going to do this, but here it goes.......The government has stepped in and told private business men how to run there business. I'm speakin of this new no smoking law in bars, etc... Bars are legal, smoking is legal, but the governemt is stepping in and telling bar owners they can not let people smoke in there private business. This should be up to the owner, it is kind of like telling wal-mart they can no longer sell womens underwear. I am not a smoker, if I don't like smoke then I'll go to a no smoking place. The government has no right telling a private business owner he can not allow something that is legal.

Sorry Travh but the government is starting to get alittle to busy in our private lives. I still think we have one of the better governments but it could use a little fixin.

Mad dog,
funny how they can go from knowingly selling us cancer sticks, to making it illegal to smoke them - i smell new hidden tax/fines - while all their nuke, chemical, and oil megalopolies can walk away with a 5 cent fine over any number of Love Canals, and Exxon Valdezes, and every other manner of deadly pollutants and toxins they subject us to every where they have developed and expanded their Corp empires. .
One of the biggest and least know deadly crimes they commit against humanity comes to us via the KNOW cancer causing, synthetic estrogen/growth hormones, and the immune system destroying, antibiotics, their agribusiness' pump into our gorcery meats/livestock. No wonder we have more deadly health problems surfacing in all age groups, and more people and animals are being born of confused sexual orientation and little girls as young as 8 are hitting puberty.

You especially don't want to read Our Stolen Future, if you want to go on loving our real true gov't and all the Bushco's they buy into office to aid and abet in their world wide holocasting efforts.

Originally posted by mad dog
Travh I can't believe I'm going to do this, but here it goes.......The government has stepped in and told private business men how to run there business. I'm speakin of this new no smoking law in bars, etc... Bars are legal, smoking is legal, but the governemt is stepping in and telling bar owners they can not let people smoke in there private business. This should be up to the owner, it is kind of like telling wal-mart they can no longer sell womens underwear. I am not a smoker, if I don't like smoke then I'll go to a no smoking place. The government has no right telling a private business owner he can not allow something that is legal.

Sorry Travh but the government is starting to get alittle to busy in our private lives. I still think we have one of the better governments but it could use a little fixin.

I didnt realize the no smoking bills being passed were part of the war on terror. Dude, come on, I was talking about the patriot act, those anti smoking bills were around long before 9-11. Dont get me wrong, I agree about the smoking thing, its BS the government lets women abort babies, saying its their right to choose, yet they wont let others choose anything else.

I was asking black helicopter man to name me a right or privledge he has lost since the signing of the patriot act.

Sorry Travh you are right, I was just showing something small that our government is screwing us on.

Willow you are correct about all the sh** they are pumping into our bodies. This is why I like to kill my own meat, I hate buying any meat from the store. It's funny you mentioned the puberty deal, our family doc just said the same thing a couple of weeks ago. Doc said it was caused by all the chemicals and crappy food that society is throwing at our kids. You are also correct about all these antibiotics cutting down our immune systems.

What can we no longer do, Trav? Be INNOCENT until proven guilty...

Ashcroft knows the answer ta that popular phraseology: "Who's yer daddy?"

Joe McCarthy... (Check out some history books in those "communistic" public libraries ta see some similarities in their methodologies...)

By the way, I DO wanna thank ya fer postin' more, if ya can... I've got limitations on this end, but if we all don't keep this board active enuff... well, ya know the rest... :)

I give up on you odder, you are a lost cause. Go take some English and typing lessons and come back.

Say Words,
have you heard about their Omnivore/Carnivore electronic surveileance systems that allows them to collect info and spy on all of us "accidently."
Since they scrapped FOIA it's hard to get any new info on this scarey, monster technology.

I think we should have a team of FBI agents shadowing Willow 24/7, if there isnt one already.

Trav,
Does any thing compute with you? Why don't you spend some time doing some research since they aren't going to be devoting any more air time to this Carnivore System and, the violation of our 4th amendment rights, any more than they did to all their 40 some articles of their Patriot AXe.
Stop being such a 12 yr old, and learn that it takes being vigilant about what your so called gov is up to at all times in order that we can remain a country free of total gov control and intrusion into every aspect of our lives.

Odder counteracts the Carnivore system by writing all of his posts in his own unique style of slangy old timey stream of consciousness thinking. No computer could figure any of that out.

Odder just isn't that weird if you read his postings carefully. He displays a unique writing talent that few others, if any, have displayed here. Grok what he's saying and glean the meanings...that's all it takes.

When the US is plunged into the dark ages you will then understand which liberties you have lost.

Unfortunately, it will by then, be too late.

See you in the dungeon.

DOP

in your dying moments, when you realize you wasted your lives running from black helicopters, you will understand. When the scimitar is at your neck, you will realize you wanted to destroy the only thing keeping you safe.

And still I have not heard of one liberty we have lost, I am still waiting on that. The only libertys I see threatened are freedom of religion and the right to keep and bear arms, and those are coming from the left. What liberties has GW taken from you? The "right" to get a partial brth abortion?

Ashcroft is one scary guy. Not that any of the Attorneys General have been "friendly", but Ashcroft is pretty special. A practitioner of an especially fundamentalist religion, he has conducted prayer sessions prior to beginning his daily activities. NOT in the privacy of his home, but right there in his offices, with staff "encouraged" to attend. This is also the clown that had statues in the Dept covered, as their bare breasted stance offended his tender eyes. No, there's not been a gross loss of freedoms, but the signs are there. The Feds are treading on thin ice with doing so much in the name of lessening & preventing terrorist threats from within the country. While a lot of these new rules may feel right now, 5 years from now they may be real old.

please spare me the end of the world doomsday drivel. A guy praying in his office is pretty scary? the level that this country has reached in hits hatred of christianity is amazing. You are worried about a statue of a naked lady being covered, but say nothing when a plywood barrier is erected around the ten commandments, as if seeing it will offend the poor secularists tender eyes. Your right, there has been no loss of freedom, not even a hint of it besides what the left has scared the gulibe into believing. Maybe you shold re-evaluate who your rel enemies are, heres a hint, go look at the gaping hole in downtown manhattan for your first clue.

Since when does a gov't official get off holding mandatory prayer sessions? That's wrong. The same with a Chief Justice deciding to place a 2.5 ton granite slab with the 10 Commandments in a Federal Building. That CJ still needs a psychiatric evaluation. If some Flag Officer -- commander of any military installation under US flag -- decided to do the same thing in his/ her HQ the pshrinks & the lawyers would have a field day.
I know --- better than you Trav, exactly who the enemies are. Don't take what I've said above to mean anything differently. My life was on the front line of this country's defense for over 20 years. That doesn't change views as stated above.

I respect your service, but I have battled Al- Queada backed muslim fighters in street to street fighting on the horn of africa, so I think I know just as well as you who our enemys are. And I recall religious items in my batallion CP back at fort drum, a cross for one, prominantly displayes as you entered the building. I was there for years, and never onece did it cme up as an issue. Of course, that was at the infancy of the CLinton admin, before his hatred of god and life had a chance to seep into every facet of our lives.

I was retired by the time that particular asshole took office

trav,
you could also go read the WH's Official Report on 9/11 and look at all the cavernous holes in that puppy.

Oh, and fear not trav. Religion is the LAST thing your masters will take away from you. Not only because religion is the bedrock of politics. But also, because, when it comes to mass mind and thought control, as well as the fleecing of the ignorant masses ...... nothing works better.

"Religion is what the common people see as true, the wise people see as false, and the rulers see as useful."
- --Seneca

"Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the old world, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival."
- Frederick Douglass
For a "christian" people to care about the boarding up of some stupid (icon) without caring at all about obeying the 6th commandment - thou shalt not kill - is living testiment to Douglass's statement.

I believe it wuz Napolean who decided ta tolerate religion among the peoples he conquered, because he said it wuz such a useful tool fer "quieting" the folks under his subjugation...

Forget who??? said - that religion was the opiate of the masses. I couldn't agree more.
Here's some thoughts from Jefferson, though you might enjoy.
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"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."

[Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spofford, March 17, 1814; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371]
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"...difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

[Thomas Jeffersion, "Notes on the State of Virginia [1781-1785] also George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.]

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"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

[Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr]

you could find a bunch of quotes from TJ in support of religion in that same book, but you continue to post only what supports your crackpot theroies, and your bloated sense of self righteousness. Hypocrits like you see only the bad in the US and Christianityand believe that what you see represents these thing entirely, while denying that the bad in your beliefs is not representitive of those beliefs, go to hell with your theorys moron, let valorous men defend your reight to be a self absorbed asshole and stay out of the way.

Yeah and this is the same good christian pope who the zionist bought off to erase all god's words about certain people who sold out jesus, and who jesus firt barred from the temples for their interest charging, money changing practises.
You know.... if even a pope can go around discarding the words of god, then one can only wonder how much stock they put in this god they have done such a god job of selling to the masses.

Pope? what are you talking about? I was talking about Thomas Jefferson. I am not even catholic.

It doesn't matter Trav - the Pope runs your life in concert with GW Bush, Boeing, the Bilderbergers, and CreditSuisse bank.

Lets not forget the Smurfs, lizards people, and that big purple Dino