Look at THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWyJJQbFago&feature=dir) this and voice your opinoin

:hula:

Pure sophistry, at best. It's generally myopic in the extreme, and it's simply my opinion here, but I believe that video was formulated by feel-good liberals who just love take jabs under the guise of (generally irrefutable) concepts such as "unity", "acceptance", and "love" (all great and noble, for sure - but let's call a spade a spade here, eh?). In short, these people need to step into my office.

Nice piece of propoganda, Dunkirk.

Statistics can be made to say anything you want. Majorities, albeit quite slim ones in Israel and Palestine want peace. The thing is they want peace on their terms. If the Israelis gave in fully to the Palestinians or vice versa there would probably already be peace. Neither side is willing to bend or give an inch though.

The attempt at sublimnal messages was rather too blunt to be effective; showing only Western leaders when asking, "Do they speak for you", talking about how a grass roots phone campaign cause Bush's party to be defeated as if some evil was turned back by volunteers manning telephones.

Calling women who are forced to wear full body coverings liberated doesn't make them liberated any more than juxtaposing pictures of Westerners and Arabs makes them think alike.

In order to be effective a propoganda piece should be less ham handed than this one was. I wasn't at all impressed.

We are not that different, but our attitude to things is. Dialogue between civilizations is a conversation between a deaf one and a blind one.

I agree with that video that we all love our children and enjoy the beach.

But I don't think many western mothers would be happy and proud if their children martyr themselves.

But I don't think many western mothers would be happy and proud if their children martyr themselves.
Exactly.

I agree with that video that we all love our children and enjoy the beach.

But I don't think many western mothers would be happy and proud if their children martyr themselves.
As well as many eastern mothers wouldn't be happy and proud if their children become.. porn stars or smth..

Dzerod,

It is not totally unknown for a Muslim mother to want her child to be a suicide bomber. It is almost unknown for a Western mother to hope her child grows up to be a porn star.

Dzerod,

It is not totally unknown for a Muslim mother to want her child to be a suicide bomber. It is almost unknown for a Western mother to hope her child grows up to be a porn star.
I'm just trying to say there are different values. Western mothers think that eastern mothers grow up suicide bombers, and eastern mothers think western ones to grow up porn stars. It's all about ignorance and confidence in own superiority.

Maybe it's not so much about different values only but of different perceptions of what the others values are.

Maybe it's not so much about different values only but of different perceptions of what the others values are.
There are fundamental values, as Brooks said, common for everybody in the world, like love, family and so on.. But you can't denie differencies in social sphere, religion, politics, culture. Sometimes people just can't deal with that.

When among those differences is one that says it is honorable to fly a plane into a building, killing 3,000 innocent people, or one that says it is honorable to strap explosives to a child and blow him up so you can kill a bunch of Jews you are right, I can't deal with it.

As well as many eastern mothers wouldn't be happy and proud if their children become.. porn stars or smth..I don't think western mothers are proud of that either.
Nice stereotyping though.

Your bigotry sums up why this video is total BS.

Don't demonize me. I'm just sayin'g as it is in real life. I am not a jihad warrior and i don't grow up fanatics. My country is already free of any ideology for 15 years.

Other values doesn't mean flying Boeing into a building, Frogger, because to say honestly american marines and israeli air force kill inocent people not less then iraqi insurgency and alqaeda. You can't deal with arabs killing 3000 innocent americans, can you deal with jews killing 3000 innocent lebanese? We may argue about their motivation for years, but one is clear: both sides use criminal methods. That's why Bush supported criminal July war, and arabs support criminal Intifada.

I condemn both fanatics from the east, who believe they are guided by Allah to kill everybody who in their opinion infringe the right of moslems to exist, and fanatics from the west who suppose that they are also guided by God and have an absolute right to dictate rules of life to others.

I don't think western mothers are proud of that either.
Nice stereotyping though.

Your bigotry sums up why this video is total BS.

earlier...

I don't think many western mothers would be happy and proud if their children martyr themselves.

Well, I wonder who's doing the stereotyping here...

Well I think it is pretty accurate. We all are starting from a human base and as such are subject to indoctrination. What we end up believing if we are not taught to think, is that we are right, our way is the only way, and by gawd you will do it my way or else.

Extremism on either side of the world is possible, well actually probable. The masses are not prone to think things through or question what they have been told. I think that pretty much sums up the majority of people in the world.

Yup, we're all the same.

Well, I wonder who's doing the stereotyping here...Here's excerpts from an article by Nonie Darwish:
"As I walked in my neighborhood I found street after street with men's names who gave their lives to martyrdom! What a disaster to many families and children, but we were taught only to be proud and retaliate!"

"A message to all Middle East women: it is in your hands to change your society. Stop being submissive in giving up your husbands and sons to martyrdom. What a tragedy when you celebrate the death of your suicide bombers sons. Value their lives so they might value theirs and maybe they will respect you more."

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5301

Here's excerpts from an article by Nonie Darwish:
"As I walked in my neighborhood I found street after street with men's names who gave their lives to martyrdom! What a disaster to many families and children, but we were taught only to be proud and retaliate!"

"A message to all Middle East women: it is in your hands to change your society. Stop being submissive in giving up your husbands and sons to martyrdom. What a tragedy when you celebrate the death of your suicide bombers sons. Value their lives so they might value theirs and maybe they will respect you more."

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5301

Oh so am I supposed to go find another article that stereotypes Westerners too? You can't base your opinion on a group of people based on what a few of them are doing.
Really Brooks, if this is what you believe in, then it's like you're saying that I, as a Middle Eastern woman, would want my son to be stupid enough to blow himself up. I'm pretty sure I don't want that. I'm also sure that no one in this forum believes that I would ever want that.
Nice stereotyping.

You can't deal with arabs killing 3000 innocent americans, can you deal with jews killing 3000 innocent lebanese?

Not only can Rightwingers here in America easily "deal with" the Jews killing 3000 innocent Lebanese, they (as exemplified by many that I have spoken to in person and several on these boards) are quite proud of it and happy about it.

In the mind of the average Rightwing cretin in this country .........

Terrorists from other countries kill 3000 Americans; "Oh!, it's a tragedy of unheard of proportions. They did it because they're jealous of us!".

America exports terrorism in the form of waging a massive, unprovoked and illegal war against a country that had never harmed an American, and 600,000 non-combatants in that foreign country are killed as a result; "Well, we gotta fight us a War On Terror, and it was all just collateral damage anyway, and anyone who dares mention it is some sort of evil traitor".

Really Brooks, if this is what you believe in, then it's like you're saying that I, as a Middle Eastern woman, would want my son to be stupid enough to blow himself up. I'm pretty sure I don't want that. I'm also sure that no one in this forum believes that I would ever want that.
Nice stereotyping.
I never said "all".
Are you saying it's not "some", and that those priorities weren't shaped by the perverse aspects of the culture?

"God willing you will succeed. May every bullet hit its target, and may God give you martyrdom. This is the best day of my life." Naima al-Obeid said to her son Mahmoud on the day he went to die."

"I have two children and love them very much. But my love to see God was stronger than my love for my children." - Reem Saleh Riyashi, first Hamas female suicide bomber

"Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." - Golda Meir

I never said "all".
Are you saying it's not "some", and that those priorities weren't shaped by the perverse aspects of the culture?
Bingo.

It's (for the most part, that is) a very sick culture, and I'd like to see someone (effectively) argue to the contrary.

The fact that Innocent Sweety lives in the most westernized section of the Middle East also doesn't (IMO) bolster her contention that normalcy is pervasive there. Face it, I.S. - the whole region is only slightly better (and this point is moot) than North Africa.

and 600,000 non-combatants in that foreign country are killed as a result...
Prove it. Seriously, prove the non-combatant part, you slimy fucking subversive.

Oh, and BTW, shouldn't that number be higher, Dop? :rolleyes:

Innocent Sweety,

You do not represent the average Arab Muslim. You live in one of the most liberal of the Arab countries as is shown by the fact that you attend college. In most of the Arab world girls do not and instead stay home. Just look at the pictures of street scenes. The people in the pictures are always men and boys, never women or girls.

At least part of the Muslim mindset is caused by their interpretation of the Quran. As they see it God made man and woman unequal. Man is a reflection of God but woman is merely a reflection of man and must be kept subservient. While you live in a less restrictive Arab nation there is no Arab or Muslim country in which women are the equal of men.

Muslims and Christians (ie Westerners) also have a different view of martyrdom. The majority of Christians do not think that killing innocent people will somehow gain them access to paradise. In fact, they believe just the opposite.

These differences are not racial but are cultural. They are taught to people from the time they are children and by the time they are adults are so ingrained they are almost impossible to change.

Holy crap, Frogger.

Whether you meant it to be or not, that's probably the most condescending post I've ever read. :eek:

I very much look forward to Innocent Sweety's response.

Innocent Sweety lives in Dubai, UAE. Dubai is no more representative of the Arab world and its people are no more representative of the average Arab mindset than Berkely and its people are of the American mindset.

Were countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, etc. to be more like the United Arab Emirates the world would be a better place. The same goes for other Muslim countries. If more were like Malaysia and fewer were like Iran the world would be a better place.

If condescension means saying it is wrong to subjugate women and to kill people of other religions than call me condescending.

I never said "all".
Are you saying it's not "some", and that those priorities weren't shaped by the perverse aspects of the culture?

Honey, I'm just saying that minorities' radicalism exists everywhere, not just the Middle East.
I could argue well and hard over what priorities shaped these perverse aspects of the culture; starting with North American forced exploitation of the Middle East's vast resources. That, however, is another topic.

It's (for the most part, that is) a very sick culture, and I'd like to see someone (effectively) argue to the contrary.

The fact that Innocent Sweety lives in the most westernized section of the Middle East also doesn't (IMO) bolster her contention that normalcy is pervasive there. Face it, I.S. - the whole region is only slightly better (and this point is moot) than North Africa.

Innocent Sweety,

You do not represent the average Arab Muslim. You live in one of the most liberal of the Arab countries as is shown by the fact that you attend college. In most of the Arab world girls do not and instead stay home. Just look at the pictures of street scenes. The people in the pictures are always men and boys, never women or girls.

At least part of the Muslim mindset is caused by their interpretation of the Quran. As they see it God made man and woman unequal. Man is a reflection of God but woman is merely a reflection of man and must be kept subservient. While you live in a less restrictive Arab nation there is no Arab or Muslim country in which women are the equal of men.

Muslims and Christians (ie Westerners) also have a different view of martyrdom. The majority of Christians do not think that killing innocent people will somehow gain them access to paradise. In fact, they believe just the opposite.

These differences are not racial but are cultural. They are taught to people from the time they are children and by the time they are adults are so ingrained they are almost impossible to change.

Frogger: I never said that I represent the average Muslim. I don't know why, but I get the feeling that you think that I'm one of those high-class Arab citizens who are priviliged enough to get an education. fyi, I attend a community college; all its expenses are paid by the government, my family pays nothing. I do live in a city that with a strong economy, and I realize that most other Middle Eastern countries' economies aren't as strong.

In most of the Arab world, women do go to college.
You might be speaking about Afghanistan and Pakistan (they're not Arab, but yes Middle Easterners) but that fact is due to their corrupt governments, who force citizens to live in low poverty, they simply can't afford education for neither men nor women. Yes, there do exist families here who have an extremely backwards way of thinking, making men go while the women stay at home. However, those families are a minority and not a majority. Perhaps our minority is larger than the North American minority of such families, but the fact remains: due to economical reasons, this kind of behavior is more common here than it is in developed countries. I think you'll see this happening in developing countries all over the world, not just in Middle Eastern ones.
I think I made my point clear. Islam has nothing to do with this backwards way of thinking.

About pictures of street scenes. Well, there are strict rules regarding photography in Arab countries. The photographer has to ask the person they intend on photographing whether or not they're fine with it. More often than not, women don't grant them that permission.

See here, most American's see Middle Easterner's as backwards people, while that's not true for many M.E's. Most of the thoughts others have about us are stereotypical. I don't blame them, though, especially when biased news channels such as Fox News get high ratings.

The majority of Muslims do not believe that killing innocent people will gain them access to paradise. The few who do so are misguided. They change Islamic words to suit their corrupt needs. The reasons behind their actions are not Islamically justified. No part of their mindset is set by the Quran. They explain the words to suit their own means (like most anti-Islamist's do... take part of the verse and explain that, without explaining it within its context). Man is NOT a reflection of God. There is no species on this earth that could ever be close to being like God. Do you know how Muslims think God looks like? He doesn't look like a man (as Christian's believe). He is a light, so bright that it appears to be like black light. I think you get the picture.

These differences are not cultural. They were not taught to people since they were kids. Do understand me, I do not mean to imply that such acts do not occur; I'm well aware that they do. What I mean to say is if that were true, then almost all M.E's would commit matryrdom.
Islam is the second largest religion in the world after Christianity. If most Muslims were raised that way, they would've blown up the USA a long time ago. That's not happening though. I wonder why?

The majority of Christians do not think that killing innocent people will somehow gain them access to paradise. In fact, they believe just the opposite.

Well, yeah.

Except of course if the innocent people in question happen to be sitting on top of immense oil reserves.

Then murdering a few hundred thousand of them can be rationalized, by right-thinkin' Christians, as simply being the "spreading of democracy".

[QUOTE=sedan]Holy crap, Frogger.

Whether you meant it to be or not, that's probably the most condescending post I've ever read. :eek:
****************************************
Gee Willikers ! I don't done diddy knowed if that Bodes well
for any aspiring Condescenders in the making.
Or those feud fuddy-duddy seniors,rejuvenated by a combo
of Posting hears and Viagra.

Islam is the second largest religion in the world after Christianity. If most Muslims were raised that way, they would've blown up the USA a long time ago.
Riiiiiight. With what? Plastique? Dynamite? Semtex?

That doesn't mean the zealots living outside of the UAE aren't trying to develop nuclear weapons for exactly that purpose.
That's not happening though. I wonder why?
Cause we'd wholesale slaughter everyone in the region without thinking twice.

Look at THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWyJJQbFago&feature=dir) this and voice your opinoin

:hula:

Thats a good video and it makes a valid point. We are "the parade" and we can either choose to sit back and be led or we can get off our asses and lead the parade ourselves.

Thanks for posting it.

:thumbs:

Honey, I'm just saying that minorities' radicalism exists everywhere, not just the Middle East.
I could argue well and hard over what priorities shaped these perverse aspects of the culture; starting with North American forced exploitation of the Middle East's vast resources. That, however, is another topic.
If by "forced" you mean "discovered", then yeah - you're right; we discovered it and took it for roughly 30 years. If by "exploited" you mean "dicked" by your own governments because we've paid Platts price for your "vast resources" for more than 50 years while you people got collectively fucked over, then yeah - we're two for two here.

Up until just recently, without the US and Britain (amongst other "western" nations), who would you have sold your "vast resources" to?

What other industry do you people have that we don't know about?

Riiiiiight. With what? Plastique? Dynamite? Semtex?

That doesn't mean the zealots living outside of the UAE aren't trying to develop nuclear weapons for exactly that purpose.

You'd be surprised :)

Cause we'd wholesale slaughter everyone in the region without thinking twice.

Um, no. Suicider bombers wouldn't be afraid of death, so that's not the reason. It's cause Muslims are simply not interested in blowing themselves up (except for a misguided few).

If by "forced" you mean "discovered", then yeah - you're right; we discovered it and took it for roughly 30 years. If by "exploited" you mean "dicked" by your own governments because we've paid Platts price for your "vast resources" for more than 50 years while you people got collectively fucked over, then yeah - we're two for two here.

Up until just recently, without the US and Britain (amongst other "western" nations), who would you have sold your "vast resources" to?

What other industry do you people have that we don't know about?

Discovered? When? When the gulf states were still colonized by the British Empire?
By "exploited" I mean, as an example, taking oil out of Iraq and "dicking" Iraqi's by forcefully taking that oil with no real justification, and "collectively fucking them over".

Selling is different. What your government is doing is stealing.

There are many industries in the M.E; unfortunately, I can't recall them at the moment as crude oil and natural gas are the most common.

By "exploited" I mean, as an example, taking oil out of Iraq and "dicking" Iraqi's by forcefully taking that oil with no real justification, and "collectively fucking them over".
Oh, so now we're "stealing" their oil, eh? If that's truly happening, then this war could be easily subsidized while ultimately costing our taxpayers next to nothing. Unfortunately, that's not the case. The new Iraqi government and people stand to gain a lot by what we're doing there, but I suppose as long as certain rogue Middle Eastern "presidents" are greasing the palms of western leaders for political favor when they're in violation of multiple UN resolutions, then the status quo is okay with you.

You'd be surprised :)
Yeah, sister, I would be. What....are you going to jihad us to death with our own shit?

Oh, so now we're "stealing" their oil, eh? If that's truly happening, then this war could be easily subsidized while ultimately costing our taxpayers next to nothing. Unfortunately, that's not the case. The new Iraqi government and people stand to gain a lot by what we're doing there, but I suppose as long as certain rogue Middle Eastern "presidents" are greasing the palms of western leaders for political favor when they're in violation of multiple UN resolutions, then the status quo is okay with you.

That is a bunch of bullshit. Polls show that Iraqi's preferred the old regime to the current occupation. Facts and statistics back this fact. You cannot honestly tell me that no stealing occurs by major US corporations? Getting oil pumps and sucking it out and bringing it back to the West?

Yeah, sister, I would be. What....are you going to jihad us to death with our own shit?

If most Muslims were as you claim they were, they have their own shit to "jihad you to death" with. They're simply choosing not to. Why? Cause most aren't as you claim them to be.

That is a bunch of bullshit. Polls show that Iraqi's preferred the old regime to the current occupation. Facts and statistics back this fact.
Yeah, Saddam was a swell guy. He could keep those fucking whackos in check far better than we can, that's for sure. Mustard gas goes a long way when you're trying to keep the peace....

Hey, here's an idea - maybe we should start using it to stop them from strapping explosives on their 5 year olds for your fucked up religion.

You show me one place in the west where we ROUTINELY kill each other over cartoons, or for expressing our beliefs in public, or for NOT being Christian, and we'll talk, lady. Short of that, shouldn't you be out protesting (AK in hand) with the "peaceful" Iraqis to stop the "evil" infidel Americans from opening a Disney Land in Baghdad?

You want us to stop firing at the Iraqis? Do you want 'em to make some money a la Dubai? Then alalalalalalalalalaala!!! your way up to Iraq and tell 'em to lay their fucking weapons down so we can stop spending 10 billion a month on their shithole of a country.

We'd all stand a lot to gain.
You cannot honestly tell me that no stealing occurs by major US corporations? Getting oil pumps and sucking it out and bringing it back to the West?
Well, if that's the case, then the books are seriously cooked, sister. IOW, we're not seeing a dime of that money - and if it's at all possible, instead of shooting off your privileged mouth in the future, prove it. I like to see you pull off that little feat.

When billions of dollars disappear, contrary to popular belief, it will leave a trail.

If most Muslims were as you claim they were, they have their own shit to "jihad you to death" with. They're simply choosing not to. Why? Cause most aren't as you claim them to be.
Well, there's that, and then there's the fact that they'd be reduced to a smoldering pile of burnt bodies in less than an afternoon if they tried.

I'd say that's a fairly good deterrent.

If you people had our firepower, we'd cease to exist.

Geesh, didn't Innocent Sweety win Allforum's Sweetest Poster award? If that's the case, I'm surprised Dharma didn't win Most Popular Boy.

Maybe her turban's too tight today.

:confused:
SMW

This video is obviously vile liberal subjective post modernist propaganda.

When western fanatics kill doctors, oppress minorities and repress workers rights, it's in the name of God.

When Muslims do the same thing it's in the name of Allah.

Totally different.

Maybe her turban's too tight today.

:confused:
SMW
No, she's "liberated", SMW - they allow her to walk around without a hijab, and they also allow her drive a car. I think she's sooooo liberated that she can speak whenever she wants. To males, too!!!

Dubai is really making progress. Soon, the people living there will actually be able to choose how they're killed if they renounce Allah.

I'd like to see the video that explains how the two major Islamic sects in Iraq are not so differant after all. You know, the folks who keep blowing each other up in the market or while in prayers, or eating luch in the cafeteria...the folks who stone their own daughters for dating a guy from the wrong mosgue? Their not so differant, after all.

InnocentSweety,

I don't think you are rich because you go to college. I think you are rich because you post stuff about laughing at your maid when she took off her sandals to cross the bridge and talking about going to Europe to escape the heat. Poor people don't have maids or take off to another continent to escape the heat.

Cause most aren't as you claim them to be.Then the majority that you claim exists should rise up and do something about the crazies, don't you think? Until then, it will be the wise, unfortunate positsion of self-preservation, that we in the West will view many with limited trust, or outright defensive aggression. Sorry, but until the Muslim world is able to clean its own house, how can one expect it to be otherwise?

Poor people don't have maids or take off to another continent to escape the heat.Sometimes those of us in Texas who are not rich still travel to another continent to avoid the heat, like, say the Northeast.:banana:

Yeah, Saddam was a swell guy. He could keep those fucking whackos in check far better than we can, that's for sure. Mustard gas goes a long way when you're trying to keep the peace....

Hey, here's an idea - maybe we should start using it to stop them from strapping explosives on their 5 year olds for your fucked up religion.

You show me one place in the west where we ROUTINELY kill each other over cartoons, or for expressing our beliefs in public, or for NOT being Christian, and we'll talk, lady. Short of that, shouldn't you be out protesting (AK in hand) with the "peaceful" Iraqis to stop the "evil" infidel Americans from opening a Disney Land in Baghdad?

You want us to stop firing at the Iraqis? Do you want 'em to make some money a la Dubai? Then alalalalalalalalalaala!!! your way up to Iraq and tell 'em to lay their fucking weapons down so we can stop spending 10 billion a month on their shithole of a country.

We'd all stand a lot to gain.

Well, if that's the case, then the books are seriously cooked, sister. IOW, we're not seeing a dime of that money - and if it's at all possible, instead of shooting off your privileged mouth in the future, prove it. I like to see you pull off that little feat.

When billions of dollars disappear, contrary to popular belief, it will leave a trail.

Okay.
I can see that there's no convincing you; you're just trying to play with my temper. Just because the exact same thing that's happening by M.E's doesn't happen in the West doesn't mean that that the West is perfect.

Well, there's that, and then there's the fact that they'd be reduced to a smoldering pile of burnt bodies in less than an afternoon if they tried.

I'd say that's a fairly good deterrent.

If you people had our firepower, we'd cease to exist.

Fact? Right.

Geesh, didn't Innocent Sweety win Allforum's Sweetest Poster award? If that's the case, I'm surprised Dharma didn't win Most Popular Boy.

Maybe her turban's too tight today.

:confused:
SMW

:)

No, she's "liberated", SMW - they allow her to walk around without a hijab, and they also allow her drive a car. I think she's sooooo liberated that she can speak whenever she wants. To males, too!!!

Dubai is really making progress. Soon, the people living there will actually be able to choose how they're killed if they renounce Allah.

I'm not liberated, I consider myself moderate. I never walk around without a hijab, I wear it as a personal, religious choice.

I'll refrain from replying to the rest of that post.

InnocentSweety,

I don't think you are rich because you go to college. I think you are rich because you post stuff about laughing at your maid when she took off her sandals to cross the bridge and talking about going to Europe to escape the heat. Poor people don't have maids or take off to another continent to escape the heat.

Okay, fair enough.
I guess that Dubai's standard of living is high, which explains the Europe trips. Regarding the maid, however, even poor families here have them. I think it's because a maid's average monthly salary is $190.
My family and I are considered middle-upper class here.

Then the majority that you claim exists should rise up and do something about the crazies, don't you think? Until then, it will be the wise, unfortunate positsion of self-preservation, that we in the West will view many with limited trust, or outright defensive aggression. Sorry, but until the Muslim world is able to clean its own house, how can one expect it to be otherwise?

Yes, that's true; and I, as a private individual, started out on this forum trying to do exactly that. This thread is one example.
Gulf-state governments send all the people that the U.S. suspects as terrorists to them straight away. Some people make documentaries and sitcoms to show people how average, moderate Muslims live. The majority is trying, it's just going to take time, especially when terrorist threats happen from time to time.

Just because the exact same thing that's happening by M.E's doesn't happen in the West doesn't mean that that the West is perfect.
The West is far from perfect, however it's heaven compared to the M.E. Don't believe me? Move to Iran, Syria, ..... hell, you pick the place - it doesn't matter. Anywhere but where you're living currently - I dare you.

Do you honestly believe you're free, I.S.? What would daddy say if you fell in love with a nice Muslim girl, or Christian boy? What would daddy say if you told him you thought your faith was a farce?
Fact? Right.
Indisputable and irrefutable fact, yes. Why? You don't think it's a fact? WTF is wrong with you???

Then the majority that you claim exists should rise up and do something about the crazies, don't you think? Until then, it will be the wise, unfortunate positsion of self-preservation, that we in the West will view many with limited trust, or outright defensive aggression. Sorry, but until the Muslim world is able to clean its own house, how can one expect it to be otherwise?
That's easier said than done, at least in a lot of cases. A lot of the time you wouldn't even know who the crazies are since they carry out their activities covertly. And in some cases, such as that in Iraq, rising up could land you in a ditch with a bullet in the back of your head. Despite all that, however, many Muslims do fight against the fundies among them, though it seems to go ignored or unnoticed.

The West is far from perfect, however it's heaven compared to the M.E. Don't believe me? Move to Iran, Syria, ..... hell, you pick the place - it doesn't matter. Anywhere but where you're living currently - I dare you.

Do you honestly believe you're free, I.S.? What would daddy say if you fell in love with a nice Muslim girl, or Christian boy? What would daddy say if you told him you thought your faith was a farce?

Heaven? Right.
Okay, I'll pick a place and move there just to prove that I'm right for the sake of this debate I mean what the...? But seriously, if I were to pick a place I'd pick a gulf state because I'm used to its culture and norms - different Arab countries have different ideologies.
This discussion is becoming childish... I could easily ask back: what would a Christian father say if his son fell in love with a nice Muslim girl? Or in love with a Christian boy? It's the same thing all over the world; can you honestly tell me that you're free?

Indisputable and irrefutable fact, yes. Why? You don't think it's a fact? WTF is wrong with you???

No, what on earth is wrong with you? Why are you insisting on attacking me and making this personal?! I'm trying to be as fair as possible but it's difficult when you keep throwing nasty attacks at people who have done nothing to you except argue that perhaps what you think could be wrong.
And to answer your question: No, I don't think that what you're saying is "a fact". I think that the reason I gave you is more realistic.

Heaven? Right.
Comparatively speaking, yes, heaven. Let's see if you can follow me here, I.S. - can you say s-h-i-t-h-o-l-e? Good, then you know what to call the rest of the Middle East.
Okay, I'll pick a place and move there just to prove that I'm right for the sake of this debate I mean what the...?
You don't have to actually move to another country in the M.E. for me to know I'm right, I.S.

Sorry, but that's a "fact" too - or maybe you like living in squalor - you know, like in a home where your living room and kitchen can double as a toilet and a weapons cache respectively.
what would a Christian father say if his son fell in love with a nice Muslim girl?
Nothing. Or at a minimum, at least I wouldn't fear death for falling in love with the wrong person (or, even more importantly, I wouldn't fear 99.999999% of the citizenry because they don't believe such a thing should result in being drawn and quartered).
It's the same thing all over the world...
Complete horseshit. In other countries, people aren't being bull whipped, or systematically and ruthlessly slaughtered by their contemporaries for their own personal decisions regarding spirituality and love.
can you honestly tell me that you're free?
Parental consternation is one thing. Being able to do what I want where I live gives me a decidedly powerful advantage in this argument - our situations aren't anywhere near the same, and the kicker is, you come from one of the most advanced, liberal, economically prosperous regions of the M.E., period. People who live outside the confines of your pampered, educated, European vacation-taking, humorous maid residing, surroundings must really be screwed, eh?

Comparatively speaking, yes, heaven. Let's see if you can follow me here, I.S. - can you say s-h-i-t-h-o-l-e? Good, then you know what to call the neighboring countries.

Some shithole countries are supported by the West. The West should stop sending mixed messages.

Do they hate the Middle East or do they support them?

You don't have to actually move to another country in the M.E. for me to know I'm right, I.S. Sorry, but that's a "fact" too - or maybe you like living in squalor; you know, like in a home where your living room and kitchen can double as a toilet and a weapons cache respectively.

In many areas in the Palestinian territories there toilets are holes in the ground. I'd highly doubt they hide their weapons there.......:)

Nothing. Or at a minimum, at least I wouldn't fear death for making that decision (or, and even more importantly, I wouldn't fear 99.999999% of the citizenry because they don't believe such a decision should result in being drawn and quartered).

My uncle married an American Christian woman. My family resented him at first but later it was accepted.

Complete horseshit. In other countries, people aren't being bull whipped, or systematically and ruthlessly slaughtered by their contemporaries for their own personal decisions regarding spirituality and love.


Parental consternation is one thing. Being able to do what I want where I live gives me a decidedly powerful advantage in this argument - our situations aren't anywhere near the same, and the kicker is, you come from one of the most advanced, liberal, economically prosperous regions of the M.E., period. People who live outside the confines of your pampered, educated, European vacation-taking, humorous maid residing, surroundings must really be screwed, eh?

Like I.S stated, the cultures are different. Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories are very similar. Many women in the West Bank walk, dance, and workout in public without the wearing the hijab.

I for one lived both lives as someone living in America and someone living in the Middle East. They are quite similar. I've lived in the West Bank in a town called Beit Hanina. (Beit Hanina is considered part of East Jerusalem) And currently I live in California. The schools in Beit Hanina and here in America are similar. Although the classes were divided between boys and girls, the boys still had their crushes on girls and vice versa. In the marketplaces, Christians and Muslims and Women and Men often mix. In weddings, men dance with women.

Arabs love American music. I remember the Backstreet Boys were something big. And in Jordan, Applebee’s is big shit. In the West Bank, Checkers is also something big. :@@:

As for the gulf regions, I can't comment. But it does look like you can.:)

[color=firebrick]Yes, that's true; and I, as a private individual, started out on this forum trying to do exactly that. This thread is one example.
Gulf-state governments send all the people that the U.S. suspects as terrorists to them straight away. Some people make documentaries and sitcoms to show people how average, moderate Muslims live. The majority is trying, it's just going to take time, especially when terrorist threats happen from time to time.I appreciate the sentiment.

That's easier said than done, at least in a lot of cases. A lot of the time you wouldn't even know who the crazies are since they carry out their activities covertly. And in some cases, such as that in Iraq, rising up could land you in a ditch with a bullet in the back of your head. Despite all that, however, many Muslims do fight against the fundies among them, though it seems to go ignored or unnoticed.If it is difficult to know who to believe/trust from within one's own cultural constructs, imagine how much more difficult it is for the West to trust those who may well be innocent, but appear so similar in so many ways to those who wish to harm them.

And there are cultural imperitives which present very telling ideological differences. Consider the video which attempts to illustrate our similarities:It compared the American Beauty Queen with the burka clad conservative Muslim woman. (I presume it's a woman.) Both pictures present something I personnaly feel is objectifying and demeaning. But the beauty queen isn't beaten if she chooses not to participate. Furthermore, the soccer/football pictures sure didn't show the Saudi Women's team...but then the bare legs would mean that the women were whores and the men would be incapable of raping them, or lusting after them? This is a most offensive objectification of women and degredation of men's will and self-responsibilty. If these notions are supported by a community, we have very little of real value in common.

Pictures of crying mothers are sad in any language. Perhaps if those women had the vote or respect of the men in their societies, their young sons wouldn't go picking fights all the time.

If it is difficult to know who to believe/trust from within one's own cultural constructs, imagine how much more difficult it is for the West to trust those who may well be innocent, but appear so similar in so many ways to those who wish to harm them.

And there are cultural imperitives which present very telling ideological differences. Consider the video which attempts to illustrate our similarities:It compared the American Beauty Queen with the burka clad conservative Muslim woman. (I presume it's a woman.) Both pictures present something I personnaly feel is objectifying and demeaning. But the beauty queen isn't beaten if she chooses not to participate. Furthermore, the soccer/football pictures sure didn't show the Saudi Women's team...but then the bare legs would mean that the women were whores and the men would be incapable of raping them, or lusting after them? This is a most offensive objectification of women and degredation of men's will and self-responsibilty. If these notions are supported by a community, we have very little of real value in common.

Pictures of crying mothers are sad in any language. Perhaps if those women had the vote or respect of the men in their societies, their young sons wouldn't go picking fights all the time.

Great critique on Saudi Arabia. But it doesn't represent the rest of the Muslim population.

Great critique on Saudi Arabia. But it doesn't represent the rest of the Muslim population.By that do you mean to suggest that "the rest of the Muslim population," ie non-Saudi, is somehow homogenous, liberated and peaceful?

By that do you mean to suggest that "the rest of the Muslim population," ie non-Saudi, is somehow homogenous, liberated and peaceful?

I mean that the Muslims ruled under the Saudi government are put under scrutinity that other Muslims don't go through. Muslims in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt the West Bank, Indonesia. etc have more freedom than Muslims in Saudi Arabia.

In many areas in the Palestinian territories there toilets are holes in the ground. I'd highly doubt they hide their weapons there.......:)
Re-read what I said, and if you still don't understand it, I'll explain what I meant.
My uncle married an American Christian woman. My family resented him at first but later it was accepted.
Do they still live in Lebanon? If so, then how many death threats do they receive on a daily basis? Just curious.
Like I.S stated, the cultures are different. Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories are very similar. Many women in the West Bank walk, dance, and workout in public without the wearing the hijab.
I can imagine a stiff "workout" in public with a hijab on would result in heat exhaustion. That aside, walking, dancing, and working out are all acceptable activities so long as the women in question aren't driving cars, talking to men, or dating someone of a different creed.

God damn it, Googs, I can't even make fun of you - you're such an unbelievably good-natured kid.

I mean that the Muslims ruled under the Saudi government are put under scrutinity that other Muslims don't go through. Muslims in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt the West Bank, Indonesia. etc have more freedom than Muslims in Saudi Arabia.
Which isn't saying much.

I mean that the Muslims ruled under the Saudi government are put under scrutinity that other Muslims don't go through. Muslims in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt the West Bank, Indonesia. etc have more freedom than Muslims in Saudi Arabia.
Fair enough. But no Middle Eastern country that I know of had a team represent them in Women's World Cup. Not one! Why not, if one doesn't consider the cultural limitations placed on women. The Saudis may be worse than many, but they aren't the only ones with problems in this area. (It would be too easy, and unfair?, to use the Taliban examples. But surely you will accept that the promblems are not limited to the peninsula.)

Re-read what I said, and if you still don't understand it, I'll explain what I meant.

I was joking about that....

But a lot of their toilets are really holes.....

Do they still live in Lebanon? If so, then how many death threats do they receive on a daily basis? Just curious.

I'm Palestinian not Lebanese. He lives in America but travels to the West Bank every summer. No, he doesn't recieve any death threats.

I can imagine a stiff "workout" in public with a hijab on would result in heat exhaustion. That aside, walking, dancing, and working out are all acceptable activities so long as the women in question aren't driving cars, talking to men, or dating someone of a different creed.

A lot of the women choose not to wear the Hijab. And women drive in those countries.

God damn it, Googs, I can't even make fun of you - you're such an unbelievably good-natured kid.

Ha. I guess that's a compliment. And I'm not a kid, I'm turning 19 in August.

:woohoo:

Fair enough. But no Middle Eastern country that I know of had a team represent them in Women's World Cup. Not one! Why not, if one doesn't consider the cultural limitations placed on women. The Saudis may be worse than many, but they aren't the only ones with problems in this area. (It would be too easy, and unfair?, to use the Taliban examples. But surely you will accept that the promblems are not limited to the peninsula.)

Didn't Iran? I might be wrong but I thought I watched a video on youtube that had said Iran had a team represented in the World Cup.... I gotta look for it...

Comparatively speaking, yes, heaven. Let's see if you can follow me here, I.S. - can you say s-h-i-t-h-o-l-e? Good, then you know what to call the rest of the Middle East.

You don't have to actually move to another country in the M.E. for me to know I'm right, I.S.

Sorry, but that's a "fact" too - or maybe you like living in squalor - you know, like in a home where your living room and kitchen can double as a toilet and a weapons cache respectively.

Nothing. Or at a minimum, at least I wouldn't fear death for falling in love with the wrong person (or, even more importantly, I wouldn't fear 99.999999% of the citizenry because they don't believe such a thing should result in being drawn and quartered).

Complete horseshit. In other countries, people aren't being bull whipped, or systematically and ruthlessly slaughtered by their contemporaries for their own personal decisions regarding spirituality and love.

Parental consternation is one thing. Being able to do what I want where I live gives me a decidedly powerful advantage in this argument - our situations aren't anywhere near the same, and the kicker is, you come from one of the most advanced, liberal, economically prosperous regions of the M.E., period. People who live outside the confines of your pampered, educated, European vacation-taking, humorous maid residing, surroundings must really be screwed, eh?

googs said it for me.

Weak.

Didn't Iran? I might be wrong but I thought I watched a video on youtube that had said Iran had a team represented in the World Cup.... I gotta look for it...If they did I missed it. Even so, I'd say that still is grossly underrepresented due soley to the accepted attitudes of the region. Muslim women are no less coordinated, talented, skilled, etc., than any others on the planet. But they are too often kept under lock and key.

(Actually, a little while ago I googled this and had an interesting hit which said that in Iran it was made illegal for women to watch soccer matches. I'd like to check more on that.)

Yeah, after 28 years it looked like women would be able to at least watch a match, but no. The change got quashed at the last moment.

I could easily ask back: what would a Christian father say if his son fell in love with a nice Muslim girl?

I raised my youngest brother from about the age of five so I guess I can be considered as a sort of surrigate father to him. His present girlfriend is a Turkish, Muslim girl named Sibel and I and the rest of our family like her and wish the two of them only the best.

When one of my other brothers announced that he was gay it didn't change the way we felt about him. He was still family and we often spent time with him and Paul. They are no longer together and haven't been for about twenty years but Paul and I still send each other Christmas cards with long letters enclosed and he considered my mother a sort of second mother.

I doubt if either scenerio would take place in a Muslim country.

If they did I missed it. Even so, I'd say that still is grossly underrepresented due soley to the accepted attitudes of the region. Muslim women are no less coordinated, talented, skilled, etc., than any others on the planet. But they are too often kept under lock and key.

(Actually, a little while ago I googled this and had an interesting hit which said that in Iran it was made illegal for women to watch soccer matches. I'd like to check more on that.)

I just looked it up. They were represented in the East Asian Cup and not the World Cup. Also, Iranian women are forbidden in attending Men's soccer matches.

I doubt if either scenerio would take place in a Muslim country.True, and in some cases they would be stoned to death by their own families.

I doubt if either scenerio would take place in a Muslim country.

You're probably right about that, but before you castigate the Muslims too much for their backwardness, remember that 50 years ago your brother wouldn't have been able to marry his Turkish fiancee in all 50 states in this country, and that 50 years ago, being gay was an invitation to arrest here as well.

You're probably right about that, but before you castigate the Muslims too much for their backwardness, remember that 50 years ago your brother wouldn't have been able to marry his Turkish fiancee in all 50 states in this country, and that 50 years ago, being gay was an invitation to arrest here as well.

Ugh ugh... ! From Masturbate to Castigate.
I don't imagine you have some hidden ... "ate" in the
bullpen, chompin at the bit,On Steroids.

You're probably right about that, but before you castigate the Muslims too much for their backwardness, remember that 50 years ago your brother wouldn't have been able to marry his Turkish fiancee in all 50 states in this country, and that 50 years ago, being gay was an invitation to arrest here as well.

Fifty years ago I was in high school and I thought it was wrong. I am now retired and I still think it is wrong. The difference is, the U.S. changed, Muslim nations haven't. Just the other day they stoned a man to death in Iran for adultry and do you remember the sixteen year old girl they stoned to death a few months back in one of the Muslim countries?

The fact that a wrong was committed in other places fifty years ago in no way excuses the fact that those same wrongs are being done to this very day in other countries.

Fifty years ago I was in high school and I thought it was wrong. I am now retired and I still think it is wrong. The difference is, the U.S. changed, Muslim nations haven't. Just the other day they stoned a man to death in Iran for adultry and do you remember the sixteen year old girl they stoned to death a few months back in one of the Muslim countries?

Believe me Frogger I share your outrage when I read about these horrid and seemingly primitive practices.


The fact that a wrong was committed in other places fifty years ago in no way excuses the fact that those same wrongs are being done to this very day in other countries.

No doubt, but I wasn't attempting to excuse the behaviors. I was merely pointing out that prejudices change over time, depending on the culture you're in. The areas where these practices occur are largely tribal areas, or areas not well controlled by the governments of various countries. It's just a mistake to attribute this practice to "Muslims" in general.

Part of the problem is that this behavior rather than lessening seems to be increasing. Muslims, and I don't by any means mean all Muslims, seem to be becoming less tolerant of dissension. Far too many of them are prepared to kill anyone who does not subscribe to their particular form of Islam and far too few of them seem ready to condemn such actions.

Part of the problem is that this behavior rather than lessening seems to be increasing. Muslims, and I don't by any means mean all Muslims, seem to be becoming less tolerant of dissension. Far too many of them are prepared to kill anyone who does not subscribe to their particular form of Islam and far too few of them seem ready to condemn such actions.

I suspect such increases are localized and temporary. In the long term, and generally speaking, the world's major religions have moderated over the past centuries. For the most part, Muslims aren't Jihading, and you guys aren't burning people at the stake for heresy anymore.

Localized and temporary doesn't seem to be the case when we find it in almost all parts of the Muslim world; Palestine, Iraq, Turkey, Indonesia, India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Muslim Europe, and on and on and on. Muslims killing non-Muslims, Muslims killing other Muslims, Muslims stoning people to death. Rather than being temporary, isolated and decreasing these things seem to be permenant, universall and increasing.

This thread asks the question, are we different. It is my contention that we are. These differences are not genetic but cultural. When children are raised in a culture in which women are relegated to second or even third class status, where those who believe differently even minimally differently are considered fair game for killing, where mothers raise their children to be martyred, where crimes are punished by stoning they grow up to create a different society, one that is alien to what the West stands for and believes.

Yes, there are bastions of sanity in the Muslim world but rather than increasing they are decreasing. Both Indonesia and Turkey have become more fundamentalist, Bahais are less accepted in Iran, Muslims in England try to kill their non-Muslim fellow citizens, Pakistan has clerics preaching jihad and raising armies of children and young people to enforce religious orthodoxy.

I don't think Muslim behavior is temporary and isolated. I believe it is becoming ingrained in the Muslim psyche and is becoming more universal.

Quite possibly the perfect response, Frogger. Cheers, bud.

I am honestly appalled by the horribly prejudiced behavior of some posters on this thread. Prae and SMW, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

I am honestly appalled by the horribly prejudiced behavior of some posters on this thread. Prae and SMW, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

what, you didn't like the turban too tight comment... I had to sit on my hands for a whole fucking hour over that one...

what, you didn't like the turban too tight comment... I had to sit on my hands for a whole fucking hour over that one...No kidding.

If it was hard for you just think what it was like for IS.

But her response (:)) was perfect -- she totally outclassed SMW.

Indeed. That comment honestly surprised me, as I have always thought of SMW as one of the least prejudiced posters here and admired her tolerance for Mexican immigrants.

Prae's "your fucked up religion" comment didn't surprise me at all, since it came from him. But it was still incredibly rude.

All the terrible behavior against Muslims is completely illogical. Should black people be afraid of ALL white people because a few are in the KKK?

No kidding.

If it was hard for you just think what it was like for IS.

But her response (:)) was perfect -- she totally outclassed SMW.

Why are you seemingly SO agin'un Smarty.?
I know she can appear a bit overbearing and set in her ways
at first.But that's who she is.She is strong-willed and also
very Loyal and compassionate,in the long haul.Even in the short.
You'll find few Message Board Hostess' as Welcoming and
comfortably to chit chat with as her.
I'd have to say,She's -- Tops --,
because of her everlasting good cheer,Optimism and ability
to put things in their proper perspective.
She's Wise beyond her years and you won't find a better
message board palsy than her.
After all,she managed to endure Me,me,me,me..... Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
And that's a Feat almost worse than.... well,lets just say :
---------- Purgatory ----------

Is there something between Foolie and SMW that I may have... missed? :@@:

Is there something between Foolie and SMW that I may have... missed? :@@:
They're fighting over my deliciously sexy body.

No kidding.

If it was hard for you just think what it was like for IS.

But her response (:)) was perfect -- she totally outclassed SMW.

Yes her response was perfect!

I am honestly appalled by the horribly prejudiced behavior of some posters on this thread. Prae and SMW, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
OK, I'm ashamed of myself.

Shall I prepare to be stoned to death for having an irreverant sense of humor?

:(
SMW

Yes. Now stand there waiting while the rest of us go and gather stones. The largest stones will of course be cast by those of us who are without sin.

Whatever you say, DF...

If the KKK represented a third of our population, then you'd have a decent point. If you don't think fundamental Islamism is pervasive throughout the M.E., then you've got another thing coming. Congrats on the condescension, though - you've sure done your "pie in the sky" brethren proud. Sorry you don't like the unvarnished truth when it "hurts" someone else despite being logically deducted and simply stated.

Whatever you say, DF...

If the KKK represented a third of our population, then you'd have a decent point. If you don't think fundamental Islamism is pervasive throughout the M.E., then you've got another thing coming. Congrats on the condescension, though - you've sure done your "pie in the sky" brethren proud. Sorry you don't like the unvarnished truth when it "hurts" someone else despite being logically deducted and simply stated.
Oh fuck off, Prae. I never said anything about the incidence of "fundamental" Islam in the Middle East. I don't know how many of them are fundamentalists. However, calling someone else's religion "fucked up" is just reprehensible. And don't even try to say that you were only referring to the conservative fundamentalist Muslims, because Innocent is not one of them and therefore it is NOT her "fucked up religion".

OK, I'm ashamed of myself.

Shall I prepare to be stoned to death for having an irreverant sense of humor?

:(
SMW
Irreverence and unprovoked meanness are quite different. Innocent wasn't being mean or even rude to anyone; in fact, she was the one being ganged up on and you just had to join in.

And don't even try to say that you were only referring to the conservative fundamentalist Muslims, because Innocent is not one of them and therefore it is NOT her "fucked up religion".
Maybe not, however it is the "fucked up" religion of (literally) millions who use it as an excuse to wage war, enslave the populace, and wholesale murder people who don't pray to their god.

Ever wonder why she was too chicken shit to answer a simple question - 'if you're so free, I.S., then do tell what would happen if you told your father you're no longer gonna practice the Islamic religion (IOW - be a good little, faithful Muslim drone anymore)?'

Oh, and I didn't realize that I had to specify I was talking about "fundamentalist" Muslims (as if I was being vague...:rolleyes:) As far as I'm concerned, they're all fucking fundamentalists - it's just that some don't OPENLY advocate their desire to slaughter "infidels" and plant bombs.

If you think they're so fucking nice and tolerant, then hell, go there – visit wonderful and scenic Iran or Syria. Be sure to post pictures.

Maybe not, however it is the "fucked up" religion of (literally) millions who use it as an excuse to wage war, enslave the populace, and wholesale murder people who don't pray to their god.

Ever wonder why she was too chicken shit to answer a simple question - 'if you're so free, I.S., then do tell what would happen if you told your father you're no longer gonna practice the Islamic religion (IOW - be a good little, faithful Muslim drone anymore)?'

Oh, and I didn't realize that I had to specify I was talking about "fundamentalist" Muslims (as if I was being vague...:rolleyes:) As far as I'm concerned, they're all fucking fundamentalists - it's just that some don't OPENLY advocate their desire to slaughter "infidels" and plant bombs.

If you think they're so fucking nice and tolerant, then hell, go there – visit wonderful and scenic Iran or Syria. Be sure to post pictures.
So are you only talking about Muslims in the Middle East? Because I know plenty of Muslims who live here in America and none of them have slaughtered me or anyone else I Know... And people like Innocent Sweety probably don't want to kill us. Do you think she'd even post on this forum if she hated everyone here? Do you think that she would be so nice to us?

You're claiming that ALL followers of Islam - that's every single one, right? - want to plant bombs and kill everyone who is not a Muslim. Patently untrue. Just because there are a lot of crazy fundamentalists in the Middle East doesn't give you a right to take it out on innocent people here and around the world and basically blame them for the actions of lunatics who happen to share their religion. How would you like it if someone in another country heard about a few groups of fanatical Mormons and decided that ALL Christians are in the practice of marrying seven underage girls at a time?

Ever wonder why she was too chicken shit to answer a simple question - 'if you're so free, I.S., then do tell what would happen if you told your father you're no longer gonna practice the Islamic religion (IOW - be a good little, faithful Muslim drone anymore)?'

And another point. This is by no means restricted to Islam. To use the Mormon example again, I read an article not too long ago about a 15 year old Mormon girl who ran away from home because she didn't want to marry a man her father's age. She was then tracked down by her older brothers and beaten within an inch of her life - had one of the brothers not had a flash of good judgment at just the right moment and stopped the others, they would have killed her.

On a less extreme note, my own father wants to convert to Judaism (the religion of my step-mother and younger sister), but he is so afraid of what his mother will think that he's continuing to pretend to be a Catholic until she dies.

My boyfriend's father was almost disowned by his Methodist family for marrying an Episcopalian woman and allowing her to raise their children Episcopalian. Had he converted as well, he surely would have been disowned.

...... it (Islam) is the "fucked up" religion of (literally) millions who use it as an excuse to wage war, enslave the populace, and wholesale murder people who don't pray to their god.

In that regard, it is pretty much identical to the way that Christianity is used in this country.

Which is why I despise both religions.

Irreverence and unprovoked meanness are quite different. Innocent wasn't being mean or even rude to anyone; in fact, she was the one being ganged up on and you just had to join in.

FYI, DF, she wasn't being GANGED UP ON -- she was having a discussion with one person in which she accused my country of stealing from her country. And although my comment might have been off-handed, it was NOT mean spirited or nasty... in fact, she appeared to accept it in the manner it was intended. It was you, Sedan and Sal who felt it necessary to jump on the bandwagon and bash me for having the nerve to address her. (no big surprise there, eh?)

Well guess what?

This ain't the playground and you ain't the playground lady. I pretty much avoid exchanges with you because, although I give you an A for intelligence, you get a D- for maturity. Not surprising... you're 17 years old. I think it's too sad you decided to grow up too soon -- and even sadder that you've decided to add a slut-ad to your signature line. Like that's necessary.

Regardless, I suggest you try to refrain from admonishing your elders in the future. I'm old enough to be your grandmother. If you wanna play hall patrol, start your own teen forum and hang with your peers.

And, BTW, while you're defending your little friend from the ME, you might spend a minute or two thinking about the lot in life of her $150/month houseslave. Guess you'll never have to deal with hearing her side of life in the richest city in the world, will you?

SMW

P.S. Feel free to accuse me of wearing my Stetson too tight. I won't mind a bit.

Part of the vitriol is the result of Innocent Sweety trying to minimize the extent of terrorism as political tool in the Middle East and trying to blame the West for what is happening. When she post stuff like the following she is going to get a strong reaction.

You cannot honestly tell me that no stealing occurs by major US corporations? Getting oil pumps and sucking it out and bringing it back to the West?

Two things wrong with the above, one, it is not true that major US corporatioins are sucking out Iraqi oil and bringing it back to the West and even if it was it does not justify killing innocent women and children.

What does oil have to do with the fact that Sunnis and Shiites are blowing up worshipers leaving mosques? What does it have to do with the death squads that are killing their fellow citizens because they belong to the wrong sect of Islam? What does oil have to do with the fact that a sixteen year old girl was stoned to death?

Innocent Sweetie is trying to paint her culture in the best possible light and that is understandable but as long as we have groups like Hamas threatening to wipe out all Jews, Shia and Sunni killing each other for no reason other than a difference in the approach to the heirarchy of Islam, people killing authors because they don't like what they write or threatening cartoonists with death, mothers strapping bombs to their children and people flying planes into buildings of innocent people Muslims will be neither trusted by or viewed as the same by people in the West.

In that regard, it is pretty much identical to the way that Christianity is used in this country.

Which is why I despise both religions.


Maybe Religion Despises,you First,thar Bub.
Ever done thought a dat.?
Dweezil Dumb !

FYI, DF, she wasn't being GANGED UP ON -- she was having a discussion with one person in which she accused my country of stealing from her country. And although my comment might have been off-handed, it was NOT mean spirited or nasty... in fact, she appeared to accept it in the manner it was intended. It was you, Sedan and Sal who felt it necessary to jump on the bandwagon and bash me for having the nerve to address her. (no big surprise there, eh?)

Well guess what?

This ain't the playground and you ain't the playground lady. I pretty much avoid exchanges with you because, although I give you an A for intelligence, you get a D- for maturity. Not surprising... you're 17 years old. I think it's too sad you decided to grow up too soon -- and even sadder that you've decided to add a slut-ad to your signature line. Like that's necessary.

Regardless, I suggest you try to refrain from admonishing your elders in the future. I'm old enough to be your grandmother. If you wanna play hall patrol, start your own teen forum and hang with your peers.

And, BTW, while you're defending your little friend from the ME, you might spend a minute or two thinking about the lot in life of her $150/month houseslave. Guess you'll never have to deal with hearing her side of life in the richest city in the world, will you?

SMW

P.S. Feel free to accuse me of wearing my Stetson too tight. I won't mind a bit.
I can see that this is a subjective matter. It seemed to me that Innocent Sweety was being ganged up on, and I thought that your comment was meant to hurt her feelings. I apologize if it was meant in good will and I just didn't understand. I just knew that if I were her my feelings would have been hurt by your comment. Perhaps I'm too sensitive.

As for my immaturity, I don't think I've done anything immature here. I can sometimes be a little juvenile, but can't we all? Defending someone who I thought was attacked without provocation is not immature, although I DO admit that I was wrong about your motives in posting that potentially hurtful comment to her. Once again, I apologize.

I don't see what's wrong with my signature... All it says is that redheads are hot. And they are.

There's the DF we all know and love. :)

That was a nice response.

I can see that this is a subjective matter. It seemed to me that Innocent Sweety was being ganged up on, and I thought that your comment was meant to hurt her feelings. I apologize if it was meant in good will and I just didn't understand. I just knew that if I were her my feelings would have been hurt by your comment. Perhaps I'm too sensitive.

As for my immaturity, I don't think I've done anything immature here. I can sometimes be a little juvenile, but can't we all? Defending someone who I thought was attacked without provocation is not immature, although I DO admit that I was wrong about your motives in posting that potentially hurtful comment to her. Once again, I apologize.

I don't see what's wrong with my signature... All it says is that redheads are hot. And they are.

TU, DF. I appreciate your response.

I had absolutely no problem with your calling me out on my first post. However, once I apologized, just didn't appreciate being scolded AGAIN for the same thing.

Far as I'm concerned, subject is closed... and you showed a lot of class in your polite response.

Now about that signature pic...

:)
SMW

Now about that signature pic...
The coarse language and scantily clad woman are not good for the young ones eyes.

Think of what it will do to our youngest members! Poor Evak and.....DF....

LOL... I'm corrupting Evak! What a thought. :D