Religion is an impulse to explain. A natural impulse that everyone has and everyone grapples with. It's and impulses that, sadly and ironically, have been exploited to convince people to take actions that defy demean that impulse. The exploiters are the ruling elite of nearly every society, in every era, and ours is no exception. It's not hard to understand the false sense of comfort and security of faith that religion provides. A lot of us have been through it and can understand how hard it can be to shake the grip of dogma. Religion dogma, which is a set of rules, is a tool used by people in power to keep other people powerless, and to coerce them into serving the interest of the powerful. History is flooded with examples of religion used to defend and promote most of humanity's dumbest moves. Lie genocide: the holocaust and the annihilations of the world's indigenous populations. Like war: from the beginning of "civilization" to the Gulf War and beyond. Like prejudice: the continued subjugation of womin in all of the major religions. Like poverty: as a tool of capitalism, religion has taught the poor to accept injustice. Probably the worst effect religion has on us is it’s' ability to create divisions of remarkably deep that people will kill for them. ----, scratch at any major conflict in the world today and just beneath the skin of diplomacy and territorial demands you will find a fundamentalist, bloodthirsty form of one or more organized religions. Many "progressive" people involved in religions believe they can work within their religious institutions to change them for the better. It's an understandable desire-we all work within institutions to some extent, but it's kind of dumb in the same way that the Catholic Church's motivation for wanting to feed the hungry is kind of dumb: their writings and dogma tell them to. Shouldn't they be motivated by simply knowing that feeding the hungry is the right thing to do? People indoctrinated in religions seem to believe that moral code cannot exist outside of their institution. It can and it does. We have the ability to do the right think without the rhetoric of dogmas, the threat of hierarchies or the fear of some old coot in a beard firing a ----en lightning bolt at our sinful, hairy, zitty little asses. The saddest thing about religion is what is lost. Religion, or more accurately, I suppose the appropriators and exploiters of religion, have taken our purest impulses of solidarity, compassion, celebration of the wonder of mystery of our lives, and turned them against us. This, most of all, is why I reject religion: so that I can reclaim the impulses for the causes they deserve... love and justice.

what do u base ur "truth" on? what do u think happens when u die. i don't kno if u do, but if u believe that we just end when we die, that there is no afterlife, then ur ideas about truth (if based on ur own thoughts and feelings) r not relevant to the rest of the world. if truth is based on what each individual feels, then there's no point in arguing about it.
------Shouldn't they be motivated by simply knowing that feeding the hungry is the right thing to do?------- who decides what's right and wrong? how do we all kno that feeding the hungry is the right thing to do? if we all kno that, then wouldn't it stand to reason, that all of us r instilled w/some standard of what's right and whats wrong? if that's true, then basing truth on urself is rather pointless, its already there.
furthermore, if we r all instilled w/a standard of right and wrong, my next question is, where did it come from? if this is something the same in all of us, in the whole world, then something bigger than the world woulda had to be the one to put it there. so lets say, that thing thats bigger than the world is God or a god. if that god provides an afterlife, maybe heaven and hell, does that god tell us how to get there? to the heaven i mean. if he doesn't, then its every man for himself. if he does, shouldn't we pay attention to what he has to say?
i believe that he does say, and he says in the Bible, thats what i base my truth on. i don't base it on my own thoughts or knowledge bc there r many more intelligent ppl than me. i don't trust myself, i trust God.

What do I think happens to me when I die? Simple... being Agnostic I believe there may be a God. I don't believe in Hell I only believe in Heaven. If there is a god and if he really is forgiving then he will forgive me and allow me into heaven. I've done more in my lifetime than some churches ever do. Unlike Christianity I don't think I should get rewarded for my actions. I don't think I should get rewarded every time I protest for human rights. In my opinion it should not be something the church says you need to go do and then look for some type of dogma into heaven.

I don't hate god... I dislike how Religon holds its self. People constantly looking for a dogma....

who said anything about rewards?
God is forgiving, but u hafta take it. if someone offers u a piece of candy and u don't pick it up out of their hand, they're still generous, but u still don't have any candy. u gotta take the gift God offers u, if u die and u haven't accepted that gift, he has no choice but to reject u. we're not talkin about good works. bc "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." no one is good enough to get into heaven on their own.
so let me get this straight. u don't think there's enough evidence to prove there is a god, but u believe in an afterlife and u kno enough about this non-factual god to say that he's forgiving. this really doesn't make sense. if u believe in an afterlife, and in a forgiving god, which u think is God, shouldn't u learn more about him by reading what the Bible says? i personally suggest u read Ezekiel or Jeremiah, very interesting.

OK here's what I getting out of this. Youth is saying RELIGION. Isn't there something in the bible about religion and how it is bad. Anyways the division of people because they interpret the bible differently and want to promote it in their standard is Religion. I could be wrong. Honestly I never read the bible Although I want to. I'll say this. Agnostic. Youth has faith and going to church everyday does give people faith. I beleive in something. Maybe Jesus Christ was right. I'll say this the bible was written by men. Men is the key word. Right. So these are the feelings and words of men who may or may not have interpreted the message right. So you are basing your truths on men. I think Youth has a point and the fact that you can't understand what he's saying is more like you don't want to understand it. Your body is your temple right. SO why do I have to go to church to be a righteous man. In my mind I pray to something. Past friend and something greater like "God" I guess you could say. Honestly I'm not sure if he can hear us or if he cares. Honestly in Life we can't wait for prayers to be anwsered. This is my opinion and from my experience. I'll say that faith gives people hope and something to keep them going when things seem hopeless. And that is a good thing. I don't completely disagree with the bible and I feel its got its points as do other faiths. We are a people searching for some grand anwser to life and these are the measures we take to do so. Religion. Religion has been exploited since its creation though and has opressed a people mentally and physically. People are scared to think differently or act differently from what they are taught in the bible. I envy your faith Vball and I just hope that you can understand where we come from. Everything that Youth has said is truth and not from his opinion but from the trail of history that cannot be erased. Religion is the number one killer. To the mind and body.

www.beliefnet.com

alright, i will conceed that point. ppl acting in the name of religion have killed many many people. often times the claim the name of God. i kno this may be hard to accept, but they weren't really acting in the name of God. God didn't endorse what they did; they took scriptures out of context and twisted them around to fit their beliefs."All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly eqipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16.
Jesus Christ was one of three things, he was a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. there is no other option. through out history there is no place recorded in which a man would die for a lie. he just won't do it. if he was a lunatic, then why was all of his teachings and principles so great? what sense does that make? he was the greatest man in history, and he was insane? i don't think so. the only option left is that he is Lord. He came to earth as God in the flesh and told us the truth of his being.
in a similar way, the bible is either true through and through, or false through and through. to pick parts out of it, defeats the purpose... to only accept the things that u want to accept is the easy way out. ur supposed to be confused about things, there's supposed to be a sacrifice. i don't really like to accept that i hafta forgive someone, i honestly don't like to do it. but God gives me strength and i'm able to. and when i'm talkin about forgiving, i mean someone that wrongs me, someone that lies about me behind my back or something like that.
i don't kno if this has helped u understand my point of view. i agree that "religion" can be bad. it often becomes a list of dos and don'ts that legalistic people feel they must enforce. what i have isn't religion, its a relationship. i don't kno if that makes sense, but its the way i am.

I totally see your point Michal, and frankly, I hate violence, I feel so angry when I hear about it, I want to seek revenge, and I dunno, I forgive for somethings. But like the guy who messed my eye up, and the teachers and administrators, I have not forgiven them, justice has not been served. I tried to forgive, but the fire inside me, that sounds corny, but I am mad, I usually dont get angry about certain things, but this is something that just makes me upset at the word.

But I do feel that so many have died in the name of God, when it really was about another G word, Gold, or Glory, take your pick on the situation.

But the most over used, mis understood verse "An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, brother for a brother"

I totally disagree with that.

I'll say this. I always enjoy seeing a common ground or finding understanding in some ones point of view. I think you are right Vball Jesus is the MAN! True he is right and alot of what I hear from the bible is truth in life. And I do understand your point of view now. Forgiving is divine though. Forgivness is something people need to take more seriousley on both ends. As far as Jesus goes though I think a lot of these conservitive bible based people wouldn't even accept him if were to show his face. A bum basically walking the earth preaching the word. Truth is people and their religions have lost there way. Like I said though all you need is some faith. Something to believe in. Curious though. Are you going to say HIndhus, Toaist, Buhddist, etc... are all going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus?:hmmm:

[quote:b2a94f1196="ConfusedYouth"]
It's not hard to understand the false sense of comfort and security of faith that religion provides.[/B] [snip] [/quote:b2a94f1196]
Please don't generalize like that if you don't know what you're talking about. What you're criticizing is mainly the Christian and Catholic religions. Pagans like me don't do all that bull. We have no set rules, no power hungry monsters at the top.. some to think of it we don't even have a general power structure. We are intelligent individuals trying to live at one with nature. I have yet to meet one Pagan who's allowed his / her religion to rule his / her life. IMO there are intelligent religious people and then there are the lemmings who never question their faith and just do something because the next one in line does it.

alright, i think we keep getting caught up on this "forgiveness" thing. but if i forgive a homosexual then the very fact that i forgave them means there's something to forgive right? (i'm referring to the other thread on HIV/AIDS, but i really don't wanna get into it over here too) or at least when i forgive them, its not saying they've done nothing wrong, its saying, i'm goin to look past that wrong.

Mugya, yes, i do believe that. it sounds harsh, but Jesus very clearly stated, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." he's very straightforward and he isn't lying. the only way we can get to heaven to be w/God the father, is through his son Jesus. it sounds bad, but he hasn't exactly made it a secret. its all right here, in the Bible.

Computer Guy, you said "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" has been taken out of context. i totally agree, here's why:
"'You have heard that it was said, "Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth." But i tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other cheek also."' Matthew 5:38-39. that one might be a lil harder to accept, but its straight from the mouth of Jesus.
i hope this has helped u understand my point of view a little better. and for the record, even tho things might get a lil heated, i really enjoy this, its helped me more finely define what i believe in. its made me think a lot. thanx.

[quote:2364505129="VBallAngel4377"]
Mugya, yes, i do believe that. it sounds harsh, but Jesus very clearly stated, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." he's very straightforward and he isn't lying. the only way we can get to heaven to be w/God the father, is through his son Jesus. it sounds bad, but he hasn't exactly made it a secret. its all right here, in the Bible.[/quote:2364505129]

Not all of us believe in a Path to the Father or Heaven. Jesus was a great guy and had some good ideas but he isn't the answer that all of us believe.

I am with gr8Geezer in that I also follow a Pagan path and don't believe in the dogma surrounding the Judeo/Christian/Islamic world. We have but one rule or commandment and it is eight words long: "Do what you will, but ye harm none". I don't believe in a Merciful God but a Loving Goddess who will punish me immediately in this life if I do something wrong through Karmic Retribution.

Just don't lump everyone who is religious into one big organized group. We aren't.

Well, I think a lot of people do lump people together, and I find myself doing it sometimes, but I try to find and talk to people so they can make my knowledge on their beliefs, so that I know.


Welcome to the board Wayne Luke, its an honor to have you on the board.

-------....in this life --------
i'm curious, do u believe in reincarnation?

Ok, so Jesus was a great guy, but nothing more. he was a good teacher, right? how many wonderful teachers do u kno that lie about their very identity? or that lie at all? doesn't that defeat the purpose of being a teacher?

you kno guys, there was a man and he was atheist like, dogmatically. and he set out to prove that Jesus Christ was not who he said he was and that the resurrection never happened. he wrote a book about what he found. i've looked over it some, but i honestly couldn't get into it. i'm considering making it into like a study for myself. the book was called Evidence That Demands a Verdict; it's by Josh McDowell. I kno sometime i can be a lil forceful; sometimes i don't get my point across very well, but this guy really tried to prove it all wrong. and you kno what he found? he found that anyone who reads the book w/an open mind will be convinced that Jesus Christ is Lord and that he rose from the dead. i kno most of u prolly won't, but i'd like to challenge all of you to at least look over the book. its frustrating, bc the adult version is very indepth, but the teen version is, in some ways, oversimplified, its called Check Your Brains at the Door i think. anyways. if your secure in your faith, but open to test it, please read this book.

Sorry, but you won't get anywhere with that Vball... People who are not Christians are so on purpose and with a purpose. They are satisfied with their religion and don't need a different one. It's stuff like what you just said that really annoys me about you xtians.. Why do you always think your religion is better and how come you can't just leave people be? I don't give a toss what "the book" says, I wanna know above all what YOU think, not what you've been spoonfed by whomever within yyour religious circles.
I know "the book" may tell some people to go out and rob others of their own free will, but there's that and then there's being a good neighbor. So why don't you be a good neighbor and accept people for what they are?

i am not "spoonfed" by anyone. what i want to know is what u base ur truth on. u people who say, oh, Jesus was a good man, but religion is crap and God is forgiving and nothing else. i want to kno where u get that from. honestly, if its just ur average homegrown version of eternity, it doesn't hold muchc water. i heard a guy say once, "all arguements are circular, our's just start and end with the Bible". I kno u don't like "the book" but "the book" is a part of my very being. when people mention homosexuality, it's like, they think i'm a horrible person bc i don't agree w/it. but i quote "the book" so that i'm simply repeating what God himself said. i'm sorry that u have a problem w/it, but i will continue to quote the Bible and will continue to respond to topics.
a miconception many ppl have about Christianity is that they think everything is laid out and there's no room to think for urself. that really couldn't be farther from the truth. the important things r clear. Jesus is the only way and if we confess w/our mouths and believe in our hearts that Jesus is Lord we'll be saved. but other issues (predestination, eternal security, systematic theology, free will, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib) r not particularly clear. there r verses that support each theory and in our own finite minds, they're impossible to reconcile. there's a lot of room to think for urself, to think about the things that God has done or will do.

u said --People who are not Christians are so on purpose and with a purpose. They are satisfied with their religion and don't need a different one. -- did u mean, ppl who are Christians? if u didn't, i'm a lil confused. could u explain what u mean?

But you see, that's just it. Instead of putting down your own thoughts you cheaply repeat what your God allegedly said all those years ago. Just a reminder: There are places in which your book lies. There is proof that many of the men in there were actually women, so sorry to burst your bubble but that book was written by some men. They very probably like any author and added some subjective views to it.

And this also brings me back to calling you people religiously narrowminded. You hover over that one book for all your lives and never very seriously consider other religious books. Sure, it might be the most sacred, but does that automatically mean that other less sacred ones would be less valid?

And no... non-Christians, mainly people of Pagan kind of religions, native or nature-based religions are very satisfied with what they have. Telling them that Christianity is the only way is like taking the bible away from you and saying you are never to touch it again, rude and unnecessary.

geezer, please enlighten us on the source of this "proof" that some men were women. How was this "proof" attained?

It wouldn't matter if you took the Bible away from me, it wouldn't change my belief or my faith. Nor would it change the truth.

Ok, first you have to take into account the status women had in those days. They were regarded as barely more than house slaves and birthing machines. Now do you seriously think that any religious man would have allowed a Woman's name to appear in the bible? I think not. Sure, women were good enough to work hard as shit but would never have been allowed to recieve credit for later sacred writings. Also, just to prove it to you even more: I'm going against my ideals here by referring you to your sacred text. According to this article (http://www.belief.net/story/77/story_7788_2.html#prophet) there were not only prophets but also prophetesses like Deborah (Judges 4-5). Now seeing as that possible factoid even made it into your book, don't you think that there is a good chance that there were also female authors of parts of the bible?

As for you and your "facts".. They may be that to you but to me they are not as I do not believe in them, so don't call them facts.

God Hates Fags (http://www.godhatesfags.com)

Anyone has some sort of explanation for this site?

just because some could be written by women in no way proves they were. there were definately women prophetesses. no one i kno can refute that fact. but to say that because a book could have been written by a woman when it clearly states that it was written by a man in no way proves it was written by a woman. when the books of the Bible were written, the authors didn't realize their writings would one day be included in the Bible. so the authors had no reason to lie about their identity. as you said, there were women prophetesses so if these women wrote down their thoughts, why would they lie?
i believe that other religious writings are important and they have valid points. but if they say the Bible is wrong, then they loose all validity in my eyes. i'd talk some more, but i gotta go.

[quote:d214ed220d="VBallAngel4377"]
to say that because a book could have been written by a woman when it clearly states that it was written by a man in no way proves it was written by a woman.[/quote:d214ed220d]
So where does it state that? Ever heard of aliases? That's not the point though, just 'cause a book says it was written by writer x doesn't mean it couldn't just as well have been written by writer y under a different name.
[quote:d214ed220d][B]as you said, there were women prophetesses so if these women wrote down their thoughts, why would they lie?[/quote:d214ed220d]
You got it the wrong way around here. They weren't the ones lying, the men that "owned" them did. Whoever had the role of publisher or editor then must have changed the names to the male versions or just put men's names there.

In my mind all of this could not happen with out a main creator. And what a waste it would be for just us to be here.


But I believe in something that does have flaws, because it was written by man. There are books not listed in the book.

And I would like to see more proof as their not being women written in The Bible as well, as so far I ee nothing but heresay

[quote:379c3ce576][b:379c3ce576]alright, i think we keep getting caught up on this "forgiveness" thing. but if i forgive a homosexual then the very fact that i forgave them means there's something to forgive right? (i'm referring to the other thread on HIV/AIDS, but i really don't wanna get into it over here too) or at least when i forgive them, its not saying they've done nothing wrong, its saying, i'm goin to look past that wrong. [/b:379c3ce576] [/quote:379c3ce576]

-What are you talking about?



[quote:379c3ce576][b:379c3ce576]"'You have heard that it was said, "Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth." But i tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other cheek also."' Matthew 5:38-39. that one might be a lil harder to accept, but its straight from the mouth of Jesus. [/b:379c3ce576] [/quote:379c3ce576]

-Not straight from the mouth of Jesus...straight from the pen of man.


I don't think quoting the bible will help answer questions of faith, only confuse/frustarate more.

I am a new member, but I have had some experience at another vB board, so forgive me for jumping in. First off, let me preface my statements by telling you that [i:bc93975e45]I am a non-denominational Christian[/i:bc93975e45]. Now, I am going to address some specific points that people made earlier.

[quote:bc93975e45][i:bc93975e45]Youth[/i:bc93975e45]: Unlike Christianity I don't think I should get rewarded for my actions. I don't think I should get rewarded every time I protest for human rights. In my opinion it should not be something the church says you need to go do and then look for some type of dogma into heaven.[/quote:bc93975e45]
True Christians know that works will not get you into Heaven. Jesus said so.

[quote:bc93975e45][i:bc93975e45]Wayne[/i:bc93975e45]:
Not all of us believe in a Path to the Father or Heaven. Jesus was a great guy and had some good ideas but he isn't the answer that all of us believe.

[i:bc93975e45]VBallAngell[/i:bc93975e45]:
Ok, so Jesus was a great guy, but nothing more. he was a good teacher, right? how many wonderful teachers do u kno that lie about their very identity? or that lie at all? doesn't that defeat the purpose of being a teacher?[/quote:bc93975e45]
Absolutely. A "good teacher" cannot lie about his identity to his disciples. Jesus was either God or a big liar, not both.

[quote:bc93975e45][i:bc93975e45]gr8geezer[/i:bc93975e45]: Now seeing as that possible factoid even made it into your book, don't you think that there is a good chance that there were also female authors of parts of the bible?[/quote:bc93975e45]
Possibility does not prove probability. Besides, if some had been written by women (the ones for which the authors are unknown) there would be no problem with that.

[quote:bc93975e45][i:bc93975e45]GodHatesFagscom[/i:bc93975e45]:
...all impenitent sodomites (under the elegant metaphor of "FAGS" as the contraction of faggots, fueling the fires of God's wrath) will inevitably go to Hell (e.g., Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Timothy 1:8-11, Jude 7, etc.)...[/quote:bc93975e45]
Let me show you the full versions of those passages, [i:bc93975e45]in proper context[/i:bc93975e45].
[quote:bc93975e45]1 Corinthians 6:9-11 MKJV
(9) Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor abusers, nor homosexuals,
(10) nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[color=red:bc93975e45](11) And such were some of you. But you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.[/color:bc93975e45][/quote:bc93975e45]
As I have said repeatedly to members in another forum site, this obviously implies that those who are saved naturally will not want to engage in immoral, sinful acts due to the Holy Spirit affecting them. Thus, a presently or formally homosexual Christian will probably still go to Heaven. Now, there is only one sin that "sends you straight to Hell," as some like to say, and that is the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The point is, "white" lying is just as bad as homosexuality:
[quote:bc93975e45]James 2:10 KJV
(10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[/quote:bc93975e45]
Thus, it is foolish to put homosexuality over the other sins merely based on man's idea of a scale of sins from 1 to 10, if you will. However, all can be forgiven if you accept Jesus as Christ, [i:bc93975e45]including homosexuality and murder[/i:bc93975e45], the two sins that, apparently, are considered "worse" than the rest.

first off...

[quote:b119fe579c="ConfusedYouth"]

I don't hate god... I dislike how Religon holds its self. People constantly looking for a dogma.... [/quote:b119fe579c]

um.. thats kinda wrong there bud, not EVERYONE looks for "dogma" in the definition as I know it ((A formally stated and authoritatively settled doctrine; a definite, established, and authoritative tenet/A doctrinal notion asserted without regard to evidence or truth; an arbitrary dictum. ))

I for one do not, and i am pretty sure that gr8geezer doesnt either ((if he didnt already say something along these lines))


Second off...

[quote:b119fe579c="TheComputerGuy"]
I But the most over used, mis understood verse "An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, brother for a brother"
I totally disagree with that. [/quote:b119fe579c]

I am kinda rusty on my reading but i think that was Hamurabi who coined that phrase in his code of laws he had written on a big monolith ((which the judeans saw in babylon))

What the fvck is wrong with the people who made that godhatesfags.com site? i am just so fvcking pissed at all this merda from haters like them!!

and finaly, unlike people with dignity, which I have absolutly none of, I am not afraid to stoop to other peoples level to deliver my own little brand of karma. how about a TheGodandTheGodessHateFvckingDumbazzHaters.com? anyone up for a site like that? sounds good to me. lets trash them like they trash others. well not realy, I dont think I would be able to do that -computer illiterate- and I doubt that site would be well funded -poor too- ((just dont bring up the fact that this whole paragraph is one big oxymoron))


well thats all i have to say for now

Ta

[quote:5be02c3ffd="LHelix"]
True Christians know that works will not get you into Heaven. Jesus said so.
[/quote:5be02c3ffd]
And how do you know? Did you meet him? Jeez, the blind faith you people put in that old rag, pfft... It was written by people, your God didn't have anything to do with the actual process. And you should know.. people are biased and their survival instinct makes them portray things the way they like 'em and not the way they are sometimes.

[quote:0597f4e6ec="Daedalus"]
I for one do not, and i am pretty sure that gr8geezer doesnt either ((if he didnt already say something along these lines))
[/quote:0597f4e6ec]
Hell yeah. I don't listen to anybody just because of who they are or what post they're in. I believe what I want and not what some ponce tells me is right.

[quote:f0ad587cfe]LHelix:
True Christians know that works will not get you into Heaven. Jesus said so.

Geezer:
And how do you know? Did you meet him? Jeez, the blind faith you people put in that old rag, pfft... It was written by people, your God didn't have anything to do with the actual process. And you should know.. people are biased and their survival instinct makes them portray things the way they like 'em and not the way they are sometimes.[/quote:f0ad587cfe]
You missed the point: Christians who say they believe the Bible will have to believe that faith saves, not works; anyone who claims to be a Christian but believes that works are what saves needs to read the Bible. You guys often mix up when we are talking from within our religion and from without: if I had said, "It is proven that faith saves," then your quote would have applied, but as it is I said, "Jesus said that faith saves," and thus your quote means nothing.

You all write such long and intelligent letters but the botton line is not what you think or what I think .Its what God says."You must be saved" Now if you dont believe in hell Thats your thing.Iwould not take any risk if I were you.What is wrong with trying to live a good life?What is wrong with believing in God?To get along in this life one must believe in something.You will find out you cant trust man because they are human just like you.Who gave you your beautiful mine?Where did we come from?Where are we going? The devile is powerful but not that powerful.Use your interlect to bring people to God not to try and confused them.Cant you find something better to do with your time? keep it up and God will take it from you.

Why should one believe what one does not believe. Others don't think there ever was a god so just to be safe they should start believing in one? I live a great life and I pursue happiness just like anyone who would read the bible. I believe in evolution that we have evolved over the billions of years. And stop imposing your religon on us. Just because one does not follow or believe in a god does not mean they walk around moraless. Learn what you are talking about before you say it!

How old are you? How did you learn so much? you have the anwers to all things? I am just passing through.I found something good and thought I would share it.Your logg in name tells me a lot about you.I would not follow you from here to the corner.When your name becomes LordJesus Than you can say I dont know what I am talking about.Sounds like I hit a sore spot.

I'm old enough to grasp what my values are. I've educated my self over the past years as have my peers, parents, and school teachers. My nickname has nothing to do with how intelligent I am it’s simply a name why can't you comprehend that.

I feel that all beliefs are valid and useful. However, I do have issue with religious extremists and people who use their religions to preach intolerance and not as a personal guide. So I ask you not to tell us what are values and belifes should be but rather explain to me why you follow Christanity. I told you why I reject religon in the opening post so explain to me why you embrace Christanity.

Glad you ask. I believe in God and religon because I was taught by my parents to do so.They both came up the hard way and if they had not the bible to go to they too would have been confused .Than I would have been confused.But I believe there is a God and He knows more than I will ever know.So when I get up in the morning the first thing I do is thank God for last nights sleep and ask for His leadership during the day..Is there any one like that you can go to?When you are haveing a bad day do you call on Jack? I dont think so.I can truely say I am not confused.I am happy and hope some day you will.You have one thing in your favor you relize you need help.

Hiya folks!!! I'd just like to butt in here for a moment and say that someone in this thread is full of it. I think I'm somewhat comparable to CY's beliefs in this debate - I don't believe in God or any organized religion, but I'm still a very happy and functional person. If anyone thinks that you can't be happy with "Gord" or "Jebus Christ" in your life obviously doesn't pay much attention to the people around them.

Personally, I've always thought that God, as presented by the Bible, is a bunch of hoopla. Some of the stuff in that book is good stuff as far as morals go (don't kill people, don't steal), but that's all just common sense. If someone wants to follow what the rest of it says, great, but don't go pushing it on me. I know who I am, and that I have pretty strong morals and all, and to have someone say that those morals don't really mean anything if I'm not praying to almighty Jebus every day is just plain annoying.

I dont mined being called crazy.I concider it a tribute to speak for Jesus.Who do you represent?

[quote:0ee121c3e8]Who do you represent?[/quote:0ee121c3e8]
According to your religion: The Devil? The Anti-Christian? The evil infidels who try to distract the good cattle from their holy way?

According to me: NOONE! I don't need to represent someone. Why should I? I'm just me! Period.

Probably, this applies to the others, too.

[quote:0ee121c3e8]I believe in God and religon because I was taught by my parents to do so.[/quote:0ee121c3e8]
That's one of the worst answers I can imagine. It makes me sick and sad. Do you know why? Because you did not find your own way. You did not form your opinions because you came to certain conclusions but because you were told to believe in it. Reminds me of the short story "The Lottery" (by Shirley Jackson) which I read in English some days ago...

[quote:05b2148814="missvee"]
Who do you represent? [/quote:05b2148814]

Me? I represent myself, because I believe that only I am accountable for my actions as an individual.

We have to get a start somewhere.Thats why we have parents.Birds listen to big birds.Puppies listens to big dogs .I happened to listen to my parents and It got me to where I am now.So be it. You are smarter and you dont need anyone .They should clone you and make a whole new generations.We could do away with parents they get old and in the way.You my friend will stay young and smart.I hope you never have any children because they will be just like you.Get real we all need guide lines.I got mine from my parents and the other older people in the niegborhood .Thank God most of them got their infomation from the bible.How did you learn how to do math? From a book.I learned how to treat people from the bible.

I have parents who have educated me and also made me a more intelligent human being. But whether it be parents or peers no one has a right to force a religon upon you. I will one day have children and I will educate them to be smart and relize what is right and wrong. But never will I up hold any religon upon them. I will teach them to respect people of all nature and never to judge them by an appearence. I will tell them to care for all even when diffrence come about. I learned math from a book, school teachers, and I've also taught my self. I have learned to treat people with respect not because a book told me so but because it is the correct manner to go about things. You seem not to understand just because one does not follow christianity does not mean they walk around moraless. This past month alone I spent 20 hours of my time protesting for human rights I also gave my time feeding the homeless, and making a plea for equality and peace at a recent protest. I feel that all beliefs are valid and useful. However, I do have issue with religious extremists and people who use their religions to preach intolerance and not as a personal guide. So I ask you stop assuming others have no morals because they don't follow Christanity. Would you like others to base Christanity upon the KKK? Educate your self on the topic of religon instead of making you half-witted remarks on a topic such as this.

I represent my self and feel I'm accountable for my own actions. I think one should treat everyone the same whether it be male, female, black or white. I think one should feed the poor because your actions tell you to do so not because some bible said so. I feel one should make a plea for peace around the world instead of going out and killing innocent victims. I feel I don't need a book or a god to tell me whats right from wrong. I feel it's human nature to do all the above. You wish for me one day not to have a child is that what Christanity tell you wish hate upon one because they don't follow your religous belifes. I wish you the best of life!

I belive I have said all this in the past read my opening post to this thread!!!!! Than you will better understand this.

[quote:16b2773345="missvee"]
Birds listen to big birds.Puppies listens to big dogs. [/quote:16b2773345]

No, they don't. All animals run on instinct. This is one of the things that sets us apart from other animals.

[quote:16b2773345][b:16b2773345]I hope you never have any children because they will be just like you.[/quote:16b2773345][/b:16b2773345]

Free thinkers?

[quote:16b2773345][B]How did you learn how to do math? From a book.I learned how to treat people from the bible. [/quote:16b2773345]

So now you're equating philosophy with math? Sorry, but they are two wildly different things. Math has a strict set of rules. If philosophy had such rules, we wouldn't be here debating it now.

(And yes, I know this post was directed at someone else, but I couldn't help but comment. I just really needed to mention those points).

I thank you for also responding to that even when it was directed to me. One can't understand that I have morals just as Christains do. I will allow others to follow there values and belifes much like I do. I can't seem to understand why he would say such comments like "i wish you never have a child". Ask most anyone I know or on this board and they will tell you I have better morals and belifes than some christians. Ask most people on this board and they will tell you I make a plea for peace under any circumstance and I try to treat everyone equally. If that is moraless than I suppose Christanity is also. I will allow my children to follow whatever belifes suits them unlike other parents whom force upon a religon upon there children. I belive your parents attempt to make you fit there mold unlike I who will allow my child to belive in what relgion he or she feels best. I think your turning out to be your parents. I ask you not to controdict your self in such ways!

To each his own.

[quote:764b314cf0]Potts:
If anyone thinks that you can't be happy with "Gord" or "Jebus Christ" in your life obviously doesn't pay much attention to the people around them.[/quote:764b314cf0]
Heh, I never said you couldn't be happy.

[quote:764b314cf0]missvee:
devile is powerful but not that powerful.Use your interlect to bring people to God not to try and confused them.Cant you find something better to do with your time? keep it up and God will take it from you.[/quote:764b314cf0]
Huh? Knowing that you are a Christian, I don't know how you can possibly say that to me. Number one, I do not try to force my beliefs on others. Do you see any gun pointed at you? Number two, we believe the Devil is almost infinitely more powerful than we humans, and that only the truly infinite God can shield us from him. Thirdly, as a Christian, I believe when the Bible says that I am supposed to preach. So, then, how can my God (and yours) be displeased with what I do if I am doing what He says to do?

[quote:764b314cf0]CY:
And stop imposing your religon on us.[/quote:764b314cf0]
Me? *Points to my paragraph above*

[quote:764b314cf0]Potts:
I know who I am, and that I have pretty strong morals and all, and to have someone say that those morals don't really mean anything if I'm not praying to almighty Jebus every day is just plain annoying.[/quote:764b314cf0]
Number one, again, I don't force my religion. Number two, I never said that non-Christians don't have morals. Number three, you don't have to pray every day according to my religion; salvation is not based upon works, but upon faith.

[quote:764b314cf0]missvee:
I believe in God and religon because I was taught by my parents to do so.

CY:
That's one of the worst answers I can imagine. It makes me sick and sad. Do you know why? Because you did not find your own way. You did not form your opinions because you came to certain conclusions but because you were told to believe in it. Reminds me of the short story "The Lottery" (by Shirley Jackson) which I read in English some days ago...[/quote:764b314cf0]
Hmm... yah, is that the reason you came to God? Because you just always did?

(Sorry for my late response: I only just now received my update e-mails.)

I had beautiful parents and I thank God for them.If we did not need them we would have come out of eggs or something else and raised by buzzers.You are right I am 72 years old and did not learn what I know by myself .It took a village.With your out look I doubt if you will reach half my age.Too many know it all kids .I am glad religon plays a great part in my life and I am glad my parents loved me enough to start me on the right road.You can make up your own mine.Thats one goodthing about God .He does not need you .You will some day need Him.I hope you will find this out befor you get too messed up.

[quote:e61a0a9325="missvee"]
I had beautiful parents and I thank God for them.If we did not need them we would have come out of eggs or something else and raised by buzzers.You are right I am 72 years old and did not learn what I know by myself .It took a village.With your out look I doubt if you will reach half my age.Too many know it all kids .I am glad religon plays a great part in my life and I am glad my parents loved me enough to start me on the right road.You can make up your own mine.Thats one goodthing about God .He does not need you .You will some day need Him.I hope you will find this out befor you get too messed up. [/quote:e61a0a9325]

Beautiful post.

I accepted Christ as my savior at church camp when I was 14. I love him and can never repay him for all he has done for me. I'll never miss an opportunity to confess him as savior and Lord.

[quote:04dc3f40af]can never repay him for all he has done for me.[/quote:04dc3f40af]

Just the opposite. He didnt do anything the entire world cant do themselves. My 12 year old brother can be tortured and executed. Thats a pretty sweet deal to have some guy two thousand years ago be tortured so you can get into heaven now.

By sweet deal I mean, bull----.

[quote:04dc3f40af]I had beautiful parents and I thank God for them.If we did not need them we would have come out of eggs or something else and raised by buzzers.You are right I am 72 years old and did not learn what I know by myself .It took a village.With your out look I doubt if you will reach half my age.Too many know it all kids .I am glad religon plays a great part in my life and I am glad my parents loved me enough to start me on the right road.You can make up your own mine.Thats one goodthing about God .He does not need you .You will some day need Him.I hope you will find this out befor you get too messed up. [/quote:04dc3f40af]

I have beautiful parents also who allowed me to think for my self rather them doing it for me. They showed me there religon and informed me greatly about it but I did not follow it as I began reading on others. They support me in any values I have as long as they don't oprress or offend a certain group of society. Parents educate you and give you values teach you from right and wrong but that does not mean they are given the right to impose a certain religion upon you. I'm old enough to relize I did not learn anything my self yet in what way does learning deal with religion. I know Athiest and Muslims who are much more intelligent than a christian. I also know Christians who are much more intelligent than Athiest or Muslims. I'm glad you believe in something I have no problem with others having faith in one thing I'm simly stating why I don't follow a certain religion. In what way will I be messed up. There are Christians who flood are prison cells. Looks to me they have them selves in quite the jam. I know Athiest who are living quite the productive life by helping others and plea for equality around the world to all. I also have seen others who do not follow Christ who live in a prison cell.

Aw Buckshot, now let's not get all wound up! I said my piece...

Confused Buckshot Travis ladies an gentlemen! Future world champion (mechanical)bullrider and a super swell dude. Let's hear it... YEEEEHAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! YOU DA MAN BUCKSHOT!!! Don't let that bull whoop ya! :D

I didn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole, but here I am.
This is specifically for ConfusedYouth, but could apply to most of the anti-establishment liberals here:

I personally am a Christian. But not a perfect one. One of my flaws is that I could not care less whether you reject Christ and suffer in hell. I really don't care. Shame on me, I know. You say you don't care if we have our own beliefs... as long as we keep it to ourselves and never express it. Gotcha. So you can go right ahead and believe what you want, I don't care, but you keep that crap to yourself and don't you dare provoke people of the Christian religion, got it? There is no double standard here. You want us to keep it quiet? Ok. You too. You want us to let you believe how you want without judgement or criticism? Ok, but you better give us the same. Apparently that compromise doesn't appeal to you.

You liberals want to tear away at Christianity every chance you get. Well what about the persecution Christians have suffered? What about that? I don't ever hear you left wingers complain about that. That just further proves that the bigger an establishment is in the USA, the more liberals hate it.

Oh and by the way, I am a Christian because I thought for myself. You really get off on accusing people of not thinking for themselves, don't you? Typical liberal.

Being an athiest I see the existence of god as trivial, that it does not matter either way. More importantly, I see religion as a mistake. There seems to be no basis for any existing religion except superstition. I do believe that people should be moral but not because that is what "god" wants.
[quote:7c7c41cc96]I would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven![/quote:7c7c41cc96]
I once heard it said. To spend your life and afterlife as a sevant seems like a waste of time to me.
I say, be greedy but dont kill for it. Live as you wish but be peaceful about it.

Besides, if god were real, why does he never show his face, why does he cower in heaven instead of help his worshipers?!?!

DaveTooner, you make a fool of yourself...

[quote:63e17cb828]I would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven![/quote:63e17cb828]
Whoever said that, no matter of what religion they are, is rather foolish. From within Christianity, we know that Hell is a place of eternal loneliness; there is no one to rule. In Heaven, we serve God, but we also rule over the angels. So, there goes that statement. But also, from without Christianity, you all know Hell is a horrible place; does whoever said this really think it is nicer to suffer in torment forever than to live in a beautifull, shining city 2,500 miles cubed?

Dave I know several Librials who are Christians. I was a Christian for many years my self but as lazy and stupid as I was (still am) began reading on other religions and spritual beliefs and found that Agnosticism better suites me.

You guys know that hell doesn't really exist in your religion, don't you? I mean in your REAL religion, in real Christianity - based upon what the bible says and not what the chirch says.

[quote:b4942654f0]Neg:
You guys know that hell doesn't really exist in your religion, don't you? I mean in your REAL religion, in real Christianity - based upon what the bible says and not what the chirch says.[/quote:b4942654f0]
LOL. Yes, Hell exists, says the Bible. I would really appreciate it if you would show me where the Bible does not mention Hell, because there is a whole book about it (Revelation) and many more passages about it.

...and if it isn't, it should be! lol. why in gods name, should there be an afterlife? (oops im an atheist) why in logics name should there be an afterlife? eternity is too long, i have trouble filling an afternoon! and besides, if there is an afterlife, i.e. hell/heaven, then the "good" people might be acting in fear of hell. that is unethical. those who rule by fear are called oppressors. now, im not calling [color=red:9ba6d707bd]god an oppressor[/color:9ba6d707bd] or anything, but that is just because too many people would harrass me about it and i dont need harrassment.

[quote:7aeb82b15d="DaveTooner"]


Beautiful post. [/quote:7aeb82b15d]

Yes, there's nothing more beautiful then having someone HORRIBLY AND MERCILESSLY BUTCHER THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IN NEARLY EVERY SENTENCE THAT THEY SPEW FORTH.
:rolleyes:

[quote:3de74a2e64]I had beautiful parents and I thank God for them.If we did not need them we would have come out of eggs or something else and raised by buzzers.You are right I am 72 years old and did not learn what I know by myself .It took a village.With your out look I doubt if you will reach half my age.Too many know it all kids .I am glad religon plays a great part in my life and I am glad my parents loved me enough to start me on the right road.You can make up your own mine.Thats one goodthing about God .He does not need you .You will some day need Him.I hope you will find this out befor you get too messed up. [/quote:3de74a2e64]

I hardly found this post to be EVEN CLOSE to what you described it. I figured you people would at least give a 72 year old grandmother some respect. I found it heartwarming and it coincides totally with my convictions. I also found it to be a sparkplug for you kids. I could bring my Muslim friend or a Chinese Buddhist I know on this board with a similar post, and you kids would welcome them with open arms. Place one or two posts on this board concerning one's faith in Christ and 90% of the board attacks the member. At least spread your agnostic ways evenly.

As for you Confused, are you whacked? "My 12 year old brother could be tortured and killed", where do you come off? You know NOTHING about what true Bible believing Christians hold to be sacred and true. Christ's death was merely a physical one to you. True Christians believe that he died and rose again, it's the pillar of their faith just like ALL other religions have beliefs that are vital to their very existance. Like I said earlier, if your going to spread your agnostic misery, at least spread it evenly.

imagine if you will: the year is 0001, the weather is cloudy so you decide to visit the library. "a fiction book would be good", you say. in the fiction section you see the following titles: [i:986397511f]george and the wenday wind; quaran; numbskull jones, PI; book of mattew; book of mark; book of john; the complete bible set; mr. smith goes to washington.[/i:986397511f] "hmmm, this bible here sounds good", you say. then the expansion of religion and so on. (yes, i know libraries did not exist in year 0001)

what if the religious histories are not true?? show me some proof and then claim god is all powerful. otherwise, you have an unfounded arguement.

p.s. dont tell me that it doesnt matter whether i believe in him or not for him to exist.[quote:986397511f]well founded ideals are usually based on unfounded beliefs
unknown[/quote:986397511f]

[quote:15901da35e="Rammin&Thumpin"]

True Christians believe that he died and rose again, [/quote:15901da35e]


I actually believe this, too. But I ALSO believe that after stumbling around for 5 hours looking for raw human flesh, Ben shot him in the head while Barbara whimpered in the background. That's what [b:15901da35e]I[/b:15901da35e] believe really happened.

Good one Potts, really special.

[quote:88bf31f2ee]mandanus:
(yes, i know libraries did not exist in year 0001)[/quote:88bf31f2ee]
Neither did the completely compiled Bible. :) Jesus died about AD 30 (He was born about 4 BC) and the New Testament was compiled after His death.

... because it is full of anti-establishment liberals who think they can somehow prove that the Bible is false when in reality it can't be proven EITHER way.

And I still don't know why these Bible bashers think they can say "Don't shove your religion down my throat!" then turn around and shove their opinions of Christianity down everyone else's throat. I guess mutual respect is just too lofty a goal.

Again, I know several liberals who follow Christanity and are very involved.

Both sides are gulity of forcing there values upon others in this thread. There are many who teach others about there values and there are others who force there values upon others. I feel that religion or spritual values are one thing people should not force upon others. I feel that all beliefs are valid and useful. However, I do have issue with religious extremists and people who use their religions to preach intolerance and not as a personal guide.

CY, I tend to disagree, but the bible has taught me discipline, honesty, patience, the vaule of friendship, the secrets to a good life. So you tend to think I should not try to introduce you to honesty?

As this thread is rather stupid, I feel that every single one of you that jumped on a ealier poster should apoligize.

CaractacusPotts, you make me ashamed to say I know you. I mean that, how dare you ask for respect for your beliefs and then say what you did. You make me sick to my stomach.

To all that disagree with the Bible and its teachings, how dare you critize it and yet ask for respect, I think you are no better than what you critize everyone else for.

I hope that everyone will meet and talk to God, I am sadden if you do not, but I can not force you to accept God into your life, and Jesus as your savior. I have come to appreciate everything he is, and everything he means to me. I am not perfect yet I thank him for his son dying for my mistakes, and allowing me the chance to walk with him in the kingdom of Heaven.

As far as God being an oppressor, the Bible tells you of wrong actions, if you do things that are wrong you will be punished....isnt that the kind of society we live in, and have always lived in? You should always strive to be perfect in every aspect of your life, yet God knows you can not be, and allows you to come and be with him in the after life.

My $0.99 worth!

Have you shown no regaurd to my previous post. I feel that all beliefs are valid and useful. However, I do have issue with religious extremists and people who use their religions to preach intolerance and not as a personal guide. I also have morals in which I follow.

How dare you critize others values and belifes and yet demand respect.

1--god may be perfect, but he is also unfounded. im sorry, but i cannot believe in that which is not backed up with fact. that is the reasoning behind my atheism. its not an attack on religion, its a simple explanation.

2--it seems to me that almost every post writer in this thread claims to follow some sort of moral standard (including me). why can we not just ignore where the morals came from and focus on the morals themselves. we all agree not to kill or steal (i think....). so, bible, quaran, parents, school, where ever the morals came from, i dont care really, [color=red:d69446dd58]just follow them[/color:d69446dd58]. :)

[quote:c0d0166daf="ConfusedYouth"]
Again, I know several liberals who follow Christanity and are very involved.

Both sides are gulity of forcing there values upon others in this thread. There are many who teach others about there values and there are others who force there values upon others. I feel that religion or spritual values are one thing people should not force upon others. I feel that all beliefs are valid and useful. However, I do have issue with religious extremists and people who use their religions to preach intolerance and not as a personal guide. [/quote:c0d0166daf]

I actually agree with this.

[quote:c7e27ecd18="TheComputerGuy"]


CaractacusPotts, you make me ashamed to say I know you. I mean that, how dare you ask for respect for your beliefs and then say what you did. You make me sick to my stomach.

[/quote:c7e27ecd18]

While this makes me all warm and fuzzy inside, I'd appreciate if you'd quote specific posts so that I'd know what the heck you're talking about.

Also, on ramming beliefs down the throats of others......I for one, have never gone up to someone and started arguing with them for their beliefs. I've never gone door to door, harassing people about my church. I've never posted a thread about "OMG, my beliefs RULE". See, there's a difference between violently arguing one's beliefs with and without provocation. If you leave me alone, I could care less what you believe.

Once again I like how you commies hate religion but when the most oppresive religion of all, Islam, strike against the hated capitalists, you back them up and scream porfiling and say not all Islam is like that!! HA! You are such hypocrits, I want you to say not all catholic priests are child molestors and not all christians are abortion doctor killers, you and your arguments are so fucked.

your arguement wasnt worth 2 posts so this is really just the otherone again:

i hate cristians because they are always trying to convert me (from atheism), but otherwise, i have no problem with any religions. i just really dont want to be converted. so dont convert and your on my "no hate" list. is that simple enough??

There have been many communist dictators who followed Christanity. Islam does not support terrorism. Have you every studied Islam I have and never has it said it condoned violence.

[quote:23e8a204c4]There have been many communist dictators who followed Christanity. Islam does not support terrorism. Have you every studied Islam I have and never has it said it condoned violence.[/quote:23e8a204c4]

True. But Christianity doesn't support violence either. So why do anti-christians always throw things like the crusades and abortion bombers up to our faces?

Than they are not truly Christians as they are not truly Islamic.