I saw Sen. Carl Levin on CNN opposing setting time limits for
troop withdrawl from Iraq the other day.
If that's the case he'd better start packing his own kids off to camp.
That goes for Congress, the current administration, and Bush's two
party animal daughters as well.
Empty rhetoric about supporting our troops means nothing unless they're
willing to put their own on the front line along with everyone else.
There are troops who are on their third, fourth, fifth, and even
SIXTH rotation according to the Washington Post.
Many are having their enlistment prolonged against their contract.
Unbelieveably, some are being sent back into combat with injuries
sustained during battle!
And this is all other people's kids -- not theirs.
Let em put their money where their mouth is and
step up to the plate with their very own first.

Where did people get this idea that you're somehow allowed to send your kids off to the military whether the kids want to or not?

Some people think that parents own children, Lionel. Even more ridiculous is the idea that the children are somehow responsible for the actions of their parents.

GM1258 seems to be of the opinion that no one can advocate for keeping troops in Iraq unless they have children of their own there. I wonder if he also thinks no one can advocate for welfare reform unless he sends his children out on the street to beg.

Regarding Bush's two "party animal daughters?" at least they were not clocked at 100mph in a Toyota Prius with pot and prescription drugs for which there were no prescriptions in the car. I don't think any of their party antics endangered the lives of others as Al Gore III's endangered those of other drivers. It wasn't Bush's fault that his daughters liked to have a good time any more than it is Al Gore II's fault that his son is a drug user. It is really kind of silly blaming the parents for the actions of grown children.

:YAWN:

Frogger, nothing marks you as the partisan hack you are more than this constant whine of "but the democrats did ...X"


:rolleyes:

Dharmabum,

Are you unable to read and understand a post or are you simply so partisan that you refuse to. I did not blame any Democrat. In fact I went out of my way to say the actions of Al Gore III were not the fault of his father. Just as the Bush parents can not be blamed for their daughter's former partying the Gore family can not be blamed for their son's apparant drug use and endangering the lives of others by speeding. This is not a Republican vs Democrat thing but an adult children being responsible for their own behavior thing.

Frogger,
I read your nonsense and I understand you perfectly. You only have one argument for every issue. :rolleyes:

My argument on this issue is that the parents should not be blamed for the actions of their adult children. Do you have a problem with that argument? Are you saying Al Gore II should be held accountable for the actions of Al Gore III?

My argument on this issue is that the parents should not be blamed for the actions of their adult children.

Can you point out where anyone advocated that?
Seems to me GM was proposing the exact opposite - making the children responsible for the actions of their parents.
Not an uncommon idea when you have rich people sending poor people's kids off to die in a war.

:matrix:

Dharmabum,

Parents are being blamed for advocating a war in which their children have chosen to not take an active, fighting role. According to GM1258 Carl Levin has no right to defend the war if his children aren't fighting in it. President Bush has no right advocating the war if his daughters aren't fighting in it.

I would say that is a pretty good example of someone making parents accountable for the actions of their adult children.

Frogger,

That is an interesting.. if backwards, perspective you have there.

:rolleyes:

Not an uncommon idea when you have rich people sending poor people's kids off to die in a war. Those "kids" are adults who are capable of making their own decisions and taking responsibility for their actions. You make it sound like it's the decision of the parents whether their kids join the military or not. That's just ridiculous.

just another slap in the face to the military by the "compasionate" left wing. "they are to stupid to make their own decisions, their war monger parents must ahve brainwashed em into going and dying for oil". I am sure all of your military buddies agee with you though right drama queen?

I guess I can can say any damn thing I want about the conflict(s), since my son is in the military.

Of course, I'm too poor and stupid to know anything worthwhile to say...

I guess I can can say any damn thing I want about the conflict(s), since my son is in the military.

Of course, I'm too poor and stupid to know anything worthwhile to say...
And your son is an indoctrinated zombie, brainwashed into believing he's fighting for his country while fattening the wallets of corporate executives.

And your son is an indoctrinated zombie, brainwashed into believing he's fighting for his country while fattening the wallets of corporate executives.

Yeah, thats what I've inferred from several posters here.

Of course, I'm poor and conservative (on fiscal matters anyway), so therefore I belong to the "little Eichmann" society along with all the other "gawd, guts, and glory" idiots.

I think I'll just open a can of PBR and watch an old tape of a NASCAR race... I wonder who will win when I watch it this time?

Shit... gotta run, the front porch just collapsed due to the dogs and old toilets that was on it... I need to break up some pallets so I can prop it back up.

Yeah, thats what I've inferred from several posters here.

Of course, I'm poor and conservative (on fiscal matters anyway), so therefore I belong to the "little Eichmann" society along with all the other "gawd, guts, and glory" idiots.

I think I'll just open a can of PBR and watch an old tape of a NASCAR race... I wonder who will win when I watch it this time?

Shit... gotta run, the front porch just collapsed due to the dogs and old toilets that was on it... I need to break up some pallets so I can prop it back up.

ROFL...good one OP. :)

Empty rhetoric about supporting our troops means nothing unless they're
willing to put their own (kids) on the front line along with everyone else.


Forget the kids of the warmongers.

I say let all the little toadying rightwing war-lovers themselves get their ass on a plane with a one-way ticket for Iraq.

"Iraq awaits you, conservatives! Looking at what is going on in Iraq, one has to wonder why all these loud mouthed conservatives who are so enamored of this wonderful war effort aren't packing up and moving over there. After all, this is what they want: lots of guns, less or no government, no pesky regulations, few laws. You can grab what you want, treat people any way you want, and just run wild. It's a goddamned conservative paradise! So how come I don't see the conservatives heading in droves for Iraq? After all, they believe that more guns = less crime, right? So they should be perfectly safe."

Ironic that this should be the topic today;
I myself will likely be going back over there in about a month and a half.
As part the requirements of the job.

Freethinker, my team could always use another good man.
Please send a resume detailing your skills and qualifications to
john@sparkman.name

I'll be all too happy to help you put your money where your mouth is, sir.

While we're there doing some training, problem solving, and data-collecting, let's go visit my close personal friend Nicole.
She is a volunteer Army nurse. Young Captain, very sharp.
Her parents are exceedingly wealthy New Englanders, and they are proud of her for her service and sacrifice.

We should have time while we are there to visit my old friend Reece. He is a dedicated and motivated Army aviator.
His parents are upper-middle-class Arkansans.
They too are proud of their son for his service and sacrifice.

I wish we had time to go to Afghanistan to see my old friend James.
He too is an Army aviator, and like Reece, he is on his third tour in theater.
James' father is a wealthy New Orleans businessman.
Last I spoke to Dad, he is plenty proud of his son for his service and sacrifice.

None of these friends fit the convenient stereotype of the mumbling, shuffling, disenfranchised and poverty-stricken darky who was snatched from the cotton fields and sent to war against their wishes to fight in an illegal war designed solely to make money for Gee Dubya and his oil rich cabal of evil henchmen.

They are instead, simple, noble volunteer service members, doing their jobs and serving their country.


Next time one of you internet heroes brush into a service member in the local Wal Mart, please be sure to say, "Thank you."

I'll be all too happy to help you put your money where your mouth is, sir.


I happen to oppose the war. "sir"

I invite al those who make endless excuses for B*sh and his band of crooks as to why it was such a good thing that we wage a war against Iraq to go with you.

Well, we regret that you won't be coming along.
We'll miss you, that much is true.

You're such a cuddly teddy bear, after all.

Sir.

:smile2:

Well, we regret that you won't be coming along.
We'll miss you, that much is true.


Have fun storming the castle!

Ah...War-mongering for fun and profit... :thumbs:

Have fun storming the castle! Well it's good to know that you can still make light of this whole thing. Not everyone is that lucky. You must have quite a blissful existence.

And by the way, adding a :thumbs: or a :rolleyes: to your posts doesn't make them any better or wittier. Just thought I'd let you know.

Well it's good to know that you can still make light of this whole thing.

I will leave being humorless to you. :)

And I guess the rest of us will leave being nasty to you.

And I guess the rest of us will leave being nasty to you.

You never let anything stop you from being nasty, Frogger.

:rolleyes:

Actually there are things that would stop me from being nasty. Knowing that someone has a child in the military in harm's way would stop me from making nasty comments. It doesn't seem to stop you though. You just go right on merrily making your mean comments. If I knew a poster had a child who was taking part in a demonstration that turned violent I would not make comments indicating his/her child was somehow evil. I would instead offer my hopes to that parent that his/her child would be okay.

You seem to have the maturity level of a five year old, saying whatever you want, whenever you want with no thought for how hurtful it might be.

A Knowing that someone has a child in the military in harm's way would stop me from making nasty comments.

Ok, in that case, I have a child over in Iraq.

Now STFU.

:stfu

Ok, in that case, I have a child over in Iraq.

Now STFU.

:stfu
Dhrama...Stop breathing our precious air you god-damned oxygen thief.

I say let all the little toadying rightwing war-lovers themselves get their ass on a plane with a one-way ticket for Iraq.

"Iraq awaits you, conservatives! Looking at what is going on in Iraq, one has to wonder why all these loud mouthed conservatives who are so enamored of this wonderful war effort aren't packing up and moving over there. After all, this is what they want: lots of guns, less or no government, no pesky regulations, few laws. You can grab what you want, treat people any way you want, and just run wild. It's a goddamned conservative paradise! So how come I don't see the conservatives heading in droves for Iraq? After all, they believe that more guns = less crime, right? So they should be perfectly safe."

... and all the Socialists here can go enjoy the wealth, beauty, and freedom that North Korea has to offer. You might want to pack some food and candles, I understand those a pretty scarce unless you are in the military. Of course if you are 17 - 25 you most likely will have no choice....

As of mid-1993, North Korea had national conscription for males that included significant pre-induction and post-enlistment obligations. Initial draft registration is at age fourteen, and two pre-induction physicals are conducted at age sixteen. Preinduction student training includes both high school and college training corps. Senior middle school students are enlisted in the Red Guard Youth and receive about 300 hours of rudimentary military training annually. Approximately 160 hours of this training takes place at school; the remainder is conducted during a one-time, week-long summer camp. College students are organized into College Training Units. They train for 160 hours annually on campus and participate in a one-time, six-month training camp.

The typical draft age is seventeen--after high school graduation. Some youths are able to postpone entering the military through temporary deferments based on college attendance or civilian occupation skills. The maximum legal draft age is believed to be twenty-five. Eligibility for the draft is based on economic and political factors as well as physical condition. Technicians, skilled workers, members of special government organizations, and children of the politically influential often are excluded from the draft. Most service personnel are single.

Women are recruited on a limited scale for rear area duties: psychological warfare units, hospitals, administration, and antiaircraft units. Most women are assigned to units defending fixed installations near their workplaces.

In mid-1993 the legal term of service for enlisted army draftees was believed to be forty-two months. The term of service for draftees in the navy and air force was forty-eight months. However, legal limits regularly are extended. Draftees in regular army units typically are discharged at age twenty-six, regardless of the time of entry into service. Those assigned to special operations forces or the air force often are not discharged until age thirty. Terms of service for draftees, therefore, range from less than four to more than ten years.

Recruits undergo initial military familiarization before being sent to a basic training center. Induction and a month-long basic training program for conscripts are held between March and August. New recruit training is conducted by a training company at the regiment or division level depending on the service. Advanced training varies according to service and branch: infantry and armor training is for one month, artillery training for three months, and communications training for six months. Once assigned to a unit, the individual soldier receives further training, most of which is conducted at the company or platoon level.

Training is conducted under constant supervision and essentially emphasizes memorization and repetition but also includes a heavy emphasis on technical skills and vocational training. Lack of a technical base is another reason for the emphasis on repetitive training drills. Night training is extensive, and physical and mental conditioning also are stressed. Remedial training for initially substandard performances is not uncommon. Such training methods produce soldiers well versed in the basics even under adverse conditions. The degree to which they are prepared to respond rapidly to changing circumstances is less certain.

The quality of life of the enlisted soldier is difficult to evaluate. Conditions are harsh; rations are 650 to 750 grams per day (80 to 90 percent of the South Korean ration), depending on branch and service. Leave and passes are limited and strictly controlled. A two-week leave is allowed only once or twice during an enlistment. A ten-day leave normally is granted for marriage or parental death. Passes for enlisted men are even rarer; neither day nor overnight passes are granted. During tours of duty, day passes are granted for public affairs duties or KWPrelated activities. There is conflicting information about the frequency of corporal punishment and the harshness of military justice.

A typical daily routine can run from 5:00 A.M. to 10:00 P.M., with at least ten hours devoted to training and only three hours of free or rest time, excluding meals. In addition, soldiers perform many duties not related to their basic mission. Units are expected, for example, to grow crops and to raise livestock or fish to supplement their rations.

Sounds like fun! Gotta love that great socialist society!

... and all the Socialists here can go enjoy the wealth, beauty, and freedom that North Korea has to offer. ............Sounds like fun! Gotta love that great socialist society!

:rolleyes:

a) Making much ado over how repressive and brutal the system of governance is in N Korea does nothing to excuse the fascist --aka Corporatist-- system that the U.S.A. is run by.

b) If you imagine N Korea to be "socialist" system, then you are extremely ill-informed as to what comprises socialism.

Totalitarianism (which is what prevails in N Korea) and socialism are very, very different.

I guess lots of people are ill-informed then...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries

You might want to join Wikipedia and correct these "mistakes"

I guess lots of people are ill-informed then...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries

You might want to join Wikipedia and correct these "mistakes"

You are the one making a mistake, in the way that you read (or more likely failed to read) the topic on Wikipedia. I will repeat; if you imagine N Korea to be "socialist" system, then you are extremely ill-informed.

Wikipedia states (concerning the list of countries among which N Korea is included) that --

"" In accordance with Marxism-Leninism, the constitutions of these countries claim that all power belongs to the working class, that a democratic dictatorship of the proletariat has been implemented within their borders, and that they are building socialism, with the goal of achieving communism one day.""

IF the working class people in N Korea did indeed possess all the political power there, then *Yes*, it could be said to be operating under *socialism*. But they do not. Quite the opposite.

I don't care what the constitituion of N Korea happens to say, you and I both know full well that the claim that a **democratic dictatorship of the proletariat has been implemented within its borders** is a claim that is grotesquely false.

N. Korea is a dictatorship; i.e, the virtual opposite of true socialism.

N. Korea is a dictatorship; i.e, the virtual opposite of true socialism.

No I READ just fine thank you. You apparently read, but can't comprehend.

Socialism almost always evolves into a totalitarian regime. I hate to bust your Socialist "bubble". Look at the list of countries that claim socialism in their constitution again. Want to move to one of those?

Just follow Hugo Chavez over the next few years... and learn something.

No I READ just fine thank you. You apparently read, but can't comprehend.

We disagree. You are the one who seems to have a comprehension problem.

You seem not to understand that N Korea is not --contrary to what they may claim to be-- a country run by socialist ideals.

Socialism almost always evolves into a totalitarian regime.

Maybe.

But if and when they do, then they are no longer socialist countries, but totalitarianist countries.

I hate to bust your Socialist "bubble". Look at the list of countries that claim socialism in their constitution again. Want to move to one of those?

Key word; claim.

I would very much like to move to a country run by truly socialist ideals, such as those described by the Socialist Party USA, wherein there would be --""the elimination of the power of big business through public ownership and workers' control, production for use instead of profit, the establishment of a classless society and a committment to internationalism and to the struggle against racism, sexism, classism, heterosexism, and homophobia. ""

Better still, i'd like to see THIS country turn back from the abyss it is about to (thanks to being run by ConservaFascists) hurtle over and embrace that very form of democratic socialist government.


Just follow Hugo Chavez over the next few years... and learn something.

I will. I very much admire him.

My argument on this issue is that the parents should not be blamed for the actions of their adult children. Do you have a problem with that argument? Are you saying Al Gore II should be held accountable for the actions of Al Gore III?

I agree.But parents Need be held responsible for the actions
and behavior of underage teens.Because a parent is the legal
Guardian,and Kids should be disciplined at home,first.
That is the problem with Todays Youth.
Parents more often than not,want to be friends or Pals with
their kids.That's a really bad mix.A parent needs friends their
age and so do the Kiddie.
Kids were far better off when Parents just ignored them.
I just visited another favorite Actor Bio today and learnt,
he too,ran off and joined the circus ar age 16.
Most Golden Agers,HAD to act and Be grown up at a very early age.
It's exactly the Opposite today.
Those kinda kids from that Era,were far more mature and
responsible,than Today's litlle pansy - Queer Brats.
Because they had to go out and learn the hard way.
And often still in their Youth.There was no safety net.
It was called .... School of hard knocks !

I will. I very much admire him.

I sure hope you never live to regret that statement, brother Freethinker.
Humans like Hugo Chavez have a nasty habit of proving their human frailty and moral flexibility/bankruptsy in the long run.

Be careful who you hitch your star to, is what I guess I am saying.

.

I sure hope you never live to regret that statement, brother Freethinker.
Humans like Hugo Chavez have a nasty habit of proving their human frailty and moral flexibility/bankruptsy in the long run.

Be careful who you hitch your star to, is what I guess I am saying.

.

Sparky ...Schnarky !
No guessing allowed.
If you don't KNOW,then kindly step aside.
This hears board is for the Knowing.
Or Knowing impaired.
Got it !

I very much admire (Hugo Chavez).


Be careful who you hitch your star to, is what I guess I am saying.


?!???

I am not "hitching my star" to Chavez or anyone else. I simply said that I admired him.

I would be extremely curious to know, however, just what it is you think that Mr Chavez could do that would cause me to "regret" expressing admiration for him..........?!?!?

We disagree. You are the one who seems to have a comprehension problem.

No, my point is that there is no "true" socialist countries. I doesn't work.

You seem not to understand that N Korea is not --contrary to what they may claim to be-- a country run by socialist ideals.

* see above statement
Maybe.

But if and when they do, then they are no longer socialist countries, but totalitarianist countries.

* again... see first statement


I would very much like to move to a country run by truly socialist ideals, such as those described by the Socialist Party USA, wherein there would be the elimination of the power of big business through public ownership and workers' control, production for use instead of profit, the establishment of a classless society and a committment to internationalism and to the struggle against racism, sexism, classism, heterosexism, and homophobia.

And I would like to see the elimination of all police, jails, laws, and military (if we just all were good people). But as my grandfather used to say "You can wish in one hand, and shit in the other, then see which one fills up quicker"

Better still, i'd like to see THIS country turn back from the abyss it is about to (thanks to being run by ConservaFascists) hurtle over and embrace that very form of democratic socialist government.

Your opinion... and you are entitled to it (and free to express it here thanks to the "conservafascists" that are "running" things)

I will. I very much admire him.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. As Herr Chavez gains more power... he will turn his country into a abomination of socialism akin to Kim Jong Il's North Korea today. I hope I'm wrong (for the people's sake), but I highly doubt it.

No, my point is that there is no "true" socialist countries. I doesn't work.

How odd.

If that was truly what you were trying to say all along then I cannot imagine why you would have posted --



""... and all the Socialists here can go enjoy the wealth, beauty, and freedom that North Korea has to offer. Gotta love that great socialist society!""

It seems to me that your point was very much that N Korea was *a socialist country*.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As the ConservaFascists running this country have clearly demonstrated.

________________________________

The most cold-blooded, murderous people involved in the Iraq conflict are to be found in Washington D.C., atop the nation’s military-industrial and war media complexes – at the soulless pinnacles of Empire and Inequality, Inc. They stride in expensive suits through the safe, tranquil, air-conditioned corridors of power while brown-skinned children weep in anguish and U.S. soldiers’ lose their limbs in the sweltering bloodbath of “liberated” Iraq.

As Bob Dylan noted in 1962, -- “They fasten the triggers for the others to fire; and sit back and watch while the death count gets higher. They hide in their mansions, while young people’s blood; flows out of their bodies and gets buried in the mud”

How odd.

If that was truly what you were trying to say all along then I cannot imagine why you would have posted --

I wonder the same about many of your posts and responses.


... and all the Socialists here can go enjoy the wealth, beauty, and freedom that North Korea has to offer. Gotta love that great socialist society!

That's what I said (being facetious about socialism - it doesn't work). Look at all the "socialist" countries. See a pattern?

It seems to me that your point was very much that N Korea was *a socialist country*.

No.... There is no such thing. Sort of like a true democracy... it does not exist other than in the heads of dreamers.

As the ConservaFascists running this country have clearly demonstrated.

I'm most likely one of your categorized "Conservafascists". Show me how that I am Fascist in any of my beliefs. Yep, I'm calling you out. I have many conservative ideals (smaller government, personal accountability, fiscal responsibility, etc.) although I tend to be more liberal on social issues (gay civil unions, abortion, the death penalty, etc.). Tell me why I need a swastika tattoo on my forehead.... I'm all ears.

Ok, in that case, I have a child over in Iraq.

Now STFU.

:stfu


Oh and BTW dhrama.... screw you and the horse you rode in on.

Oh and BTW dhrama.... fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Language, please gentlemen, language.
This is, after all, an otherwise family-oriented web-forum.

I'd hate to imagine how some soccer mom is going to try and explain this concept to her little kid.

"You see, Billy, when a man and another man and his horse, really, really love each other, well then they get married of course, and then the man sticks his....."

:eek:

Language, please gentlemen, language.
This is, after all, an otherwise family-oriented web-forum.

I'd hate to imagine how some soccer mom is going to try and explain this concept to her little kid.

"You see, Billy, when a man and another man and his horse, really, really love each other, well then they get married of course, and then the man sticks his....."

:eek:

lol....

Edited to a "nicer" word.

Of course I'm sure that dhrama has a horse, and is a cowboy, and has friends that were in the indian wars, and....

?!???

I am not "hitching my star" to Chavez or anyone else. I simply said that I admired him.

I would be extremely curious to know, however, just what it is you think that Mr Chavez could do that would cause me to "regret" expressing admiration for him..........?!?!?


Because absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Because no human leader is without their failures, foibles, (and unfortunately for their devoted fans) their miserable follies.

Shoot, nobody can blame you for admiring Hugo Chavez's stated vision.
Chavez's Bolivarianism looks good on paper, and he admittedly has some impressive domestic social programs in place. But (the criticisms of the US President aside for a moment), Chavez is not without his critics right within his own borders. His own newspapers claim that crime and corruption are epidemic. Chavez is believed by many in Venezuela as a power-hungry demigod. The leading business paper in Argentina, 'Ambito Financiero' recently described Venezuela under Chavez as having a "nationalized economy, out-of-control spending, government by decree, and perpetual re-election" and compared Chavez to King Louis XIV of France, declaring his 2007 inauguration would mark "a concentration of power without precedent in Venezuela".

FT, if you admire the man because he detests the United States, her President, her policies of corporate expansionism and interference, then just own up to that. Given your own stated opinions in that same regard, then your hero worship is understandable.

I just hope, and I'm being sincere here, that history proves his critics wrong.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/hugo_chavez2.jpg

Because absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I do not see how that addresses the question -- ""what it is you think that Mr Chavez could do that would cause me to "regret" expressing admiration for him?""

Because no human leader is without their failures, foibles, and their miserable follies.

OK. But I still do not see how that addresses the question -- ""what it is you think that Mr Chavez could do that would cause me to "regret" expressing admiration for him?""


Shoot, nobody can blame you for admiring Hugo Chavez's stated vision.
Chavez's Bolivarianism looks good on paper, and he admittedly has some impressive domestic social programs in place.

I am, quite frankly, astounded. You may be the first rightwinger I ever encountered who did not immediately stick his head in the sand and deny that anyone who expressed a vision of a world different than theirs or at odds with their (far Right, conservative) ideology just might have something of merit to say.

FT, if you admire the man because he detests the United States, her President, her policies of corporate expansionism and interference, then just own up to that.

The phrase *just own up to it* dishonestly implies that I have somehow been less than forthcoming about it and have denied it. Not true. I proudly state that that is a part of the reason I admire him. I have clearly stated it before on these boards.

So you can leave off with the smarmy implications that I have refused to "own up" to liking him because he detests the President and his far-right policies of American imperialism, corporatism and armed interference.

Given your own stated opinions in that same regard, then your hero worship is understandable.

Once again; I am not "hitching my star" to Chavez....and I do not have "hero worship" for him. :rolleyes: I simply said that I admired him. I do not fucking "worship" him as a "hero". Sheesh.

*insert bad picture of Chavez's head on Superman's body here*

Once again; I am not "hitching my star" to Chavez....and I do not have "hero worship" for him. :rolleyes: I simply said that I admired him. I do not fucking "worship" him as a "hero". Sheesh.

Good for you then sir. I retract that portion of my cautionary discussion, and apologize for offending you in that regard.

But to the caution, and the spirit in which it was delivered?
I reiterate:
There is no world leader who is immune to the largesse of power.
Be it Jimmy Carter, Golda Meier, Gee Dubya Bush, Pope John Paul II, or even Hugo Chavez himself.

He’s only human, after all.


http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/fs13/300W/f/2007/016/7/9/The_cat_and_the_cream_by_NivaSimon.jpg

Here we go with timelines again. Glad i'm an independent so I can stick it to both. We started this mess and regardless of what it was started based on or its current situation we must finish what we start. This is not an America where we go around the world making mess and then saying when the kitchen gets hot lets go home with no regard for the lives and region you destroyed. We are better than this and if the democrats what to truly help come up with idea's and stop saying you figure it out by this date. When did you contribute to the problem instead of the solution. By setting dates your taking an administration that is imcapable of executing this war and forcing them to make more time constrained decisions that invaribly will lead to more mistakes.

If we don't finish the job that we came to do then if you honestly think there isn't chaos now then hell is only a phone call away. That will be as we affectionately call "the point of no return". Then the timelines and solutions that could be offered will no long be an option and then what do you have left. Then we would have to give strong thought to Richard Armitage's suggestion to that we could bomb then back into the stone age. This refering to Iraq and not Pakistan. American's will not stand for 7 bucks at the tank. That will be the day when dems say do what you have to do.

"what it is you think that Mr Chavez could do that would cause me to "regret" expressing admiration for him?"


How about having his goons shoot into crowds of peaceful demonstrators? Or do you admire and approve of the killing of innocent people who are peacefully demonstrating?

How about shutting down television stations that don't kowtow to him and toe his personal party line? Are you or are you not in favor of freedom of the press, or perhaps you are only in favor of such freedom when the press is free to attack the US government.

[QUOTE=OldPhart]... and all the Socialists here can go enjoy the wealth, beauty, and freedom that North Korea has to offer. You might want to pack some food and candles, I understand those a pretty scarce unless you are in the military. Of course if you are 17 - 25 you most likely will have no choice....

As of mid-1993, North Korea had national conscription for males that included significant pre-induction and post-enlistment obligations. Initial draft registration is at age fourteen, and two pre-induction physicals are conducted at age sixteen. Preinduction student training includes both high school and college training corps. Senior middle school students are enlisted in the Red Guard Youth and receive about 300 hours of rudimentary military training annually. Approximately 160 hours of this training takes place at school; the remainder is conducted during a one-time, week-long summer camp. College students are organized into College Training Units. They train for 160 hours annually on campus and participate in a one-time, six-month training camp.

The typical draft age is seventeen--after high school graduation. Some youths are able to postpone entering the military through temporary deferments based on college attendance or civilian occupation skills. The maximum legal draft age is believed to be twenty-five. Eligibility for the draft is based on economic and political factors as well as physical condition. Technicians, skilled workers, members of special government organizations, and children of the politically influential often are excluded from the draft. Most service personnel are single.

Women are recruited on a limited scale for rear area duties: psychological warfare units, hospitals, administration, and antiaircraft units. Most women are assigned to units defending fixed installations near their workplaces.

In mid-1993 the legal term of service for enlisted army draftees was believed to be forty-two months. The term of service for draftees in the navy and air force was forty-eight months. However, legal limits regularly are extended. Draftees in regular army units typically are discharged at age twenty-six, regardless of the time of entry into service. Those assigned to special operations forces or the air force often are not discharged until age thirty. Terms of service for draftees, therefore, range from less than four to more than ten years.

Recruits undergo initial military familiarization before being sent to a basic training center. Induction and a month-long basic training program for conscripts are held between March and August. New recruit training is conducted by a training company at the regiment or division level depending on the service. Advanced training varies according to service and branch: infantry and armor training is for one month, artillery training for three months, and communications training for six months. Once assigned to a unit, the individual soldier receives further training, most of which is conducted at the company or platoon level.

Training is conducted under constant supervision and essentially emphasizes memorization and repetition but also includes a heavy emphasis on technical skills and vocational training. Lack of a technical base is another reason for the emphasis on repetitive training drills. Night training is extensive, and physical and mental conditioning also are stressed. Remedial training for initially substandard performances is not uncommon. Such training methods produce soldiers well versed in the basics even under adverse conditions. The degree to which they are prepared to respond rapidly to changing circumstances is less certain.

The quality of life of the enlisted soldier is difficult to evaluate. Conditions are harsh; rations are 650 to 750 grams per day (80 to 90 percent of the South Korean ration), depending on branch and service. Leave and passes are limited and strictly controlled. A two-week leave is allowed only once or twice during an enlistment. A ten-day leave normally is granted for marriage or parental death. Passes for enlisted men are even rarer; neither day nor overnight passes are granted. During tours of duty, day passes are granted for public affairs duties or KWPrelated activities. There is conflicting information about the frequency of corporal punishment and the harshness of military justice.

A typical daily routine can run from 5:00 A.M. to 10:00 P.M., with at least ten hours devoted to training and only three hours of free or rest time, excluding meals. In addition, soldiers perform many duties not related to their basic mission. Units are expected, for example, to grow crops and to raise livestock or fish to supplement their rations.

Sounds like fun! Gotta love that great socialist society![/QUOTE Communism and Socialism not the same thing!!!!

I'm most likely one of your categorized "Conservafascists". Show me how that I am Fascist in any of my beliefs.

I use the term 'fascist' and the term 'corporatist' interchangeably; both, for me, indicate the same thing.

When I say the Conservatives are fascists, what I am saying is that they are in thrall --completely-- to Corporate interests and that they are guilty of shortchanging (to put it mildly) the American People and their interests because they are so enslaved by the Corporate hierarchy; the very wealthy people who are the true power behind the political system in this country.

IF you are a stauch supporter of RightWing politicians in America today, or of the ideology of Conservatism in it current guise, then you are --in my estimation-- allied with fascists. Or Corporatists, whichever term you'd prefer.

The excerpt below explains pretty well how I view B*sh and those who support him......

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A kinder, gentler fascism ---By Carla Binion

While Bush and his rightwing supporters are not classic fascists, and their goals do not include a Holocaust, they have shown a tendency toward such fascist behavior as militarism, racism, destroying civil liberties, repressing the citizenry, crushing labor unions, deceptive propaganda and antidemocratic words and tactics. They are a somewhat lighter version of a very dark predecessor. Bertram Gross suggests that the opposite of friendly fascism is real democracy, including stronger civil liberties. He quotes “The Book of Counted Sorrows: ”“Evil is no faceless stranger living in a distant neighborhood. Evil has a wholesome, hometown face, with merry eyes and an open smile. Evil walks among us, wearing a mask which looks like all our faces.”"

Friendly fascists may talk of unity and bipartisanship while, at the same time, they work to co-opt Democratic senators and undercut the public’s right to elect its representatives. They may smile and shake hands and promise to earn our trust. However, unmask the friendly fascist and you see an enemy of democracy and civil liberties. You see Hitler-with-a-happy-face, a compassionate conservative, a kinder-gentler sort of tyrant.

How about having his goons shoot into crowds of peaceful demonstrators?

And the source of that story is.............?

Or do you admire and approve of the killing of innocent people who are peacefully demonstrating?

Believe it or not, the answer is 'no'.

Are you or are you not in favor of freedom of the press,...

In favor.