Cameron Diaz was in Peru sporting a bag with a Mao symbol and quote.
Many people were offended because to them communism represents The Shining Path who caused much death and destruction in their country.
She had absolutely no idea of the real history and simply thought it was a hip thing to own.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=paDiazMon03Diazbag&show_article=1

It very much reminds me of the kids you see wearing their Che Guevara T-Shirts around town.

"The fog of time and the strength of anti-anti-Communism have obscured the real Che. Who was he? He was an Argentinian revolutionary who served as Castro's primary thug. He was especially infamous for presiding over summary executions at La Cabana, the fortress that was his abattoir. He liked to administer the coup de grace, the bullet to the back of the neck. And he loved to parade people past El Paredon, the reddened wall against which so many innocents were killed. Furthermore, he established the labor-camp system in which countless citizens — dissidents, democrats, artists, homosexuals — would suffer and die. This is the Cuban gulag. A Cuban-American writer, Humberto Fontova, described Guevara as "a combination of Beria and Himmler." Anthony Daniels once quipped, "The difference between [Guevara] and Pol Pot was that [the former] never studied in Paris."
http://www.nationalreview.com/nordlinger/nordlinger200509270142.asp

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/queun/25296940_240x240_Front1-2.jpg

Exactly.

I wanna punch those little Che, t-shirt wearing shitheads at the mall every time I see one (and they're usually about 16 to 20; they frequent Starbucks and Hot Topic - the "rebel" store for all of your canned package non-conformity needs...explain that. :rolleyes:).

In short, they know NOTHING about history, and moreover, they haven't a clue what that murderer would've done to our country if he had control of the missiles in Cuba. Truly sad.

Although, I usually calm down and smile when I think of the fact that my father was lucky enough to be flying a C-130 gunship right overhead when Che was plugged in the head by Bolivian soldiers with a Russian made AK. One of his crewmen lowered the gate and took pictures of the aftermath, and from what I've been told - it's a nice picture of him lying in a pool of his own blood. Now there's a t-shirt idea if you ask me.....

As much as I agree with the complaints about Che T-shirts, I sympathize with Cameron Diaz on this one. I mean, I don't think I would've thought a red star and the words "Serve the People" would offend people people in Peru either. Hell, I can't even tell you anything about Peru besides the name of the capital and the previaling language.

[QUOTE=Brooks]Cameron Diaz was in Peru sporting a bag with a Mao symbol and quote.
Many people were offended because to them communism represents The Shining Path who caused much death and destruction in their country.
She had absolutely no idea of the real history and simply thought it was a hip thing to own.

It's not the first time Miss Diaz choreographed her Political
persuation in order to be seen or heard.
It's a fast track to heightened popularity.
No easier way for a Hollywood Star to get noticed or
talked about than by making a Political statement,as they
sashay their way to a night on the town.

As much as I agree with the complaints about Che T-shirts, I sympathize with Cameron Diaz on this one. I mean, I don't think I would've thought a red star and the words "Serve the People" would offend people people in Peru either. Hell, I can't even tell you anything about Peru besides the name of the capital and the previaling language.

I heard oince they got Good Flake in Peru.
I mean,one wants ta git good flake from Peru.
At least,that's what the guy down to the Cracker Barrel was tellin
all the dudes at lunch break.

As much as I agree with the complaints about Che T-shirts, I sympathize with Cameron Diaz on this one. I mean, I don't think I would've thought a red star and the words "Serve the People" would offend people people in Peru either. Hell, I can't even tell you anything about Peru besides the name of the capital and the previaling language.
What's a "Peru"? ;)

All kidding aside, I love Ceviche, and in addition to what you mentioned, that's pretty all I know about Peru.

Exactly.

I wanna punch those little Che, t-shirt wearing shitheads at the mall every time I see one (and they're usually about 16 to 20; they frequent Starbucks and Hot Topic - the "rebel" store for all of your canned package non-conformity needs...explain that. :rolleyes:).

In short, they know NOTHING about history, and moreover, they haven't a clue what that murderer would've done to our country if he had control of the missiles in Cuba. Truly sad.

Although, I usually calm down and smile when I think of the fact that my father was lucky enough to be flying a C-130 gunship right overhead when Che was plugged in the head by Bolivian soldiers with a Russian made AK. One of his crewmen lowered the gate and took pictures of the aftermath, and from what I've been told - it's a nice picture of him lying in a pool of his own blood. Now there's a t-shirt idea if you ask me.....
Hey, I like Hot Topic! But I can actually admit that I'm not a non-conformist...

Hey, I like Hot Topic! But I can actually admit that I'm not a non-conformist...
You're one of the few Hot Topic customers that realizes it.

Those kids are (by and large) like, "too kool for skool" :rolleyes:, what with their multiple piercing, tattoos, and Skinny Puppy t-shirts (like they've ever even listened to Skinny Puppy.....). In short, I just wonder where the fuck their parents are.

Things really went to hell in a hand basket during the last 12 years I've been out of high school. 90% of the girls I went to school with (at least, in my district) used to dress (and not to mention, act) like ladies.

Now 90% of ‘em just look like punk whores - ridden hard and put away wet.

But I can actually admit that I'm not a non-conformist...That admission from someone your age makes you the real non-conformist.

That admission from someone your age makes you the real non-conformist.
Brooks, please define conformist and non-conformist for me in your view.

Things really went to hell in a hand basket during the last 12 years I've been out of high school. 90% of the girls I went to school with (at least, in my district) used to dress (and not to mention, act) like ladies.

Now 90% of ‘em just look like punk whores - ridden hard and put away wet.

I must say in all seriousness, that after being exposed for many years to reactionary Archie-Bunkerish pricks like you, it is quite possible that they have eschewed men and become lesbians.

Hence the dress that you see as so un-ladylike.

Brooks, please define conformist and non-conformist for me in your view.
A couple years ago Spy magazine had an article called "Wittingly Hip".
In it they described how celebrities' stylists spent hours and hours to make their clients look like they put no effort into their look.

I think a non-conformist is someone who doesn't care if they conform or not. The other side of the coin is someone who takes pride in being a non-conformist. There's something pretentious and artificial about that.

A non-conformist is not self-conscious (I don't mean that in the colloquial sense which means to be shy or embarassed, but in the true sense).
Someone who acts or dresses differently with the intention of being different is too conscious of their image to be a non-conformist. They are conforming to an image that they have chosen.

A non-conformist would do what he or she wants to do whether it is different or not.

Once one declares himself to be a non-conformist he no longer is.

You're one of the few Hot Topic customers that realizes it.

Those kids are (by and large) like, "too kool for skool" :rolleyes:, what with their multiple piercing, tattoos, and Skinny Puppy t-shirts (like they've ever even listened to Skinny Puppy.....). In short, I just wonder where the fuck their parents are.

Things really went to hell in a hand basket during the last 12 years I've been out of high school. 90% of the girls I went to school with (at least, in my district) used to dress (and not to mention, act) like ladies.

Now 90% of ‘em just look like punk whores - ridden hard and put away wet.
LOL I don't dress or act like a lady, in general. I like to wear guys' pants and no bra sometimes. But I do sometimes make the effort to put on a nice flowery dress and a push-up bra because guys just go wild for that shit. Even if it's uncomfortable and I can't breath! And they wonder why girly girls are bitches.

A couple years ago Spy magazine had an article called "Wittingly Hip".
In it they described how celebrities' stylists spent hours and hours to make their clients look like they put no effort into their look.

I think a non-conformist is someone who doesn't care if they conform or not. The other side of the coin is someone who takes pride in being a non-conformist. There's something pretentious and artificial about that.

A non-conformist is not self-conscious (I don't mean that in the colloquial sense which means to be shy or embarassed, but in the true sense).
Someone who acts or dresses differently with the intention of being different is too conscious of their image to be a non-conformist. They are conforming to an image that they have chosen.

A non-conformist would do what he or she wants to do whether it is different or not.

Once one declares himself to be a non-conformist he no longer is.
That's a good definition. Like a lot of other young people, I started out as a conformist of sorts. That didn't last too long once I realized that I was a flat-chested nerd and the popular kids wouldn't like me even if I did dress exactly like them. So then I was a self-avowed non-conformist for a while. But the effort of wearing all that jewelry and eyeliner and listening to horrible punk music got tiring after a couple years. Since then, I wear anything I want, listen to anything I want, shop anywhere I want (including Hot Topic, which I avoided for a while because only "posers" shop there. I pretty much avoid it now because it's expensive though), and act any way I want. I have a tattoo now, but it certainly wasn't so I would be "different", since I know many, many people who have them (including my dad, mom, and step-mom).

Once one declares himself to be a non-conformist he no longer is.
She*

At least, amongst the youth of today you'll find most of these "non conformists" to be female, either undeclared or declared.

There are very few nonconformists. Most who think they are simply conform to a non-traditional group. Goths think they are nonconformists yet they hang around with other people who act and dress just like they do. Metros are the same. They hang out with other metros. Emos think they are so different yet congregate and hang out with other emos.

Most true nonconformist don't have that many friends because people tend to like to be around people who are pretty much like them.

Most who think they are simply conform to a non-traditional group.
If this were true, there are no nonconformists in existence.

Thoreau was a nonconformist. Jeffrey Raskin was a nonconformist. There are a few although they are few and far between.

Thoreau was a nonconformist. Jeffrey Raskin was a nonconformist. There are a few although they are few and far between.
They are conforming to a non traditional group.

Jef never conformed. He didn't conform when we were kids growing up together and he didn't conform in later life. He was truely sui generis.

Jef never conformed. He didn't conform when we were kids growing up together and he didn't conform in later life. He was truely sui generis.
Does he have a job and pay taxes? A family? Go to school?

He had to conform to a bunch of groups else he'd be a wildman in the woods or dead.

She*

At least, amongst the youth of today you'll find most of these "non conformists" to be female, either undeclared or declared.
Bullshit. I don't think this is true at all. I think there are equal amounts of stupid people with weird clothes and hair complaining about how "different" they are.

If this were true, there are no nonconformists in existence.There are different levels of it. I don't think there can be any pure examples of non-conformity since no one has time to design and produce their own clothing and everyone must learn a preset curriculum in school.
But to the extent that it is possible to be a non-conformist, you wouldn't recognize someone who was. They wouldn't have a set look and they'd be pretty non-descript.

But more importantly they don't think of themselves as non-conformists because they wouldn't be fretting about it at all.

Bullshit. I don't think this is true at all. I think there are equal amounts of stupid people with weird clothes and hair complaining about how "different" they are.
Step into a high school, especially the art classrooms, and then tell me that again.

There are different levels of it.
Of course. But the only reason I'm involved in this conversation is because I have been given this rather ambiguous label by others but always viewed myself as rather mundane.

I also have never been able to figure out why Che is the symbol of rebellion that people latch onto, since he was both violent and a proponent of hardline communist ideals.

What of peaceful and wise faces like Gandhi? Blame the pop art movement for that Che picture.

Just because someone doesn't share your opinions about history doesn't mean they are all "ignorant" of it.

A lot of Americans also conveniently forget that the founding fathers were all considered by many to be traitors, terrorists and murderers.

:thumbs:

I also have never been able to figure out why Che is the symbol of rebellion that people latch onto, since he was both violent and a proponent of hardline communist ideals.


He's also Hispanic, which happens to be the fastest growing sector of the population. That might answer some of his growing popularity.

Also, I think Communist ideals are growing in popularity. Things like socialized healthcare are now becoming accepted ideas within our society, despite our success within a capitalist system.

Evakian,

Jef died not too long ago. He is the guy who first proposed human computer interfacing and the driving force behind the Macintosh computer.

He and I coresponded until shortly before his death due to prostate cancer.

Jef started marching to a beat only he heard in elementary school and the beat became more divorced to the beats of other drums the older he got. In high school he was the only student who toted around one of those old, gigantic leather schoolbags like those used in the forties.

He and his wife and kids used to sit at the dinner table and speak to each other in different languages. Each of them was multi-lingual and one would speak French, another Hebrew, another Greek or German or Italian and so forth.

When he met youngsters who were bright but whose parents could not afford to send them to school he would arrange for the students to live with him and attend private schools. He would pay for their schooling right through college.

Jef was a nonconformist by any criteria you care to use.

Also, I think Communist ideals are growing in popularity.

Communism and Socialism are not the same thing. Socialism is growing in popularity but Communism... not so much.

Things like socialized healthcare are now becoming accepted ideas within our society, despite our success within a capitalist system.

The only "success" in our for-profit health care system is that the executive class has been successful at getting a lot more wealthy by denying needed health care to human beings.

In terms of providing for the health care needs of the citizens our for-profit system is a complete and utter failure.

On the other hand, socialized health care has proven very successful at providing for the needs of the vast majority of citizens in other nations across the world.



.

Communism and Socialism are not the same thing.

Thanks dharma, what would I do without you? However, both systems tout socialized healthcare, which was what I was using as an example of our society's acceptance of Communistic ideals.

Socialism is growing in popularity but Communism... not so much.


I would hypothesize otherwise. I can't say I've seen any polls or surveys on this topic, but you're replying on a thread where we are discussing a top Hollywood figure's decision to sport a Communist symbol and slogan on her bag. A few decades ago, that Hollywood figure would've been condemned for such action.

The only "success" in our for-profit health care system is that...


Although I would deny that Americans are worse off than the rest of the world in terms of health care, I was talking about capitalism generally, not our health care system specifically.

LOL I don't dress or act like a lady, in general. I like to wear guys' pants and no bra sometimes.
I used to date a girl just like you. :) It's okay to be casual - I have nothing against that. There's a time and place for casual, and there's a time and place for formal. The problem with my ex-girlfriend was that she couldn't ever differentiate between the two, which was the primary reason we broke up.

Well, that, and she caught me cheating on her.

I used to date a girl just like you. :) It's okay to be casual - I have nothing against that. There's a time and place for casual, and there's a time and place for formal. The problem with my ex-girlfriend was that she couldn't ever differentiate between the two, which was the primary reason we broke up.

Well, that, and she caught me cheating on her.
Lol now THAT might be the reason!

you're replying on a thread where we are discussing a top Hollywood figure's decision to sport a Communist symbol and slogan on her bag. A few decades ago, that Hollywood figure would've been condemned for such action.
Maybe Joe McCarthy was right about Hollywood. It's just that nowadays they get to openly adorn their bags and wallets with symbols of communism when they're paid anywhere from 10 to 20 million dollars per picture. :)

Lol now THAT might be the reason!
That's funny.

You know, she said the same thing, but I contend that was just a clever ploy to avoid talking about the real problem here; her lack of fashion sense.

I must say in all seriousness, that after being exposed for many years to reactionary Archie-Bunkerish pricks like you, it is quite possible that they have eschewed men and become lesbians.
Possibly.

It's rather funny to think that with the surplus of Truman-Capoteish, limp-dicked, intellectual cretins like you in contention, they'd still choose to become lesbians.....

I'm guessing that by your own admission, you guys never really had much of a chance anyway, eh? :( :)

Good thing my boyfriend is just about in the middle of "reactionary Archie-Bunkerish prick" and "Truman-Capoteish, limp-dicked, intellectual cretin". He somehow manages to be both a computer nerd and a redneck. He works construction but is getting his degree in video game/software design.

Although if I had to choose one extreme it would probably be the reactionary prick :D

getting his degree in video game/software design.
The most limited, short-sighted, and least-growth technical field in existence, eh?

Thanks dharma, what would I do without you?

You're welcome! Without me, you would probably be mired in rightwing wackos like Prat, Frogger and gmsisko. :thumbs:


However, both systems tout socialized healthcare, which was what I was using as an example of our society's acceptance of Communistic ideals.

Again, I take exception to you conflating socialized health care with Communism. I would submit to you that there are more Democracies with socialized health care in the world than there are Communist countries.


A few decades ago, that Hollywood figure would've been condemned for such action.

A few decades ago we were also mired in the insanity and ultra-paranoia of the cold war. I call this a vast improvement.


Although I would deny that Americans are worse off than the rest of the world in terms of health care,

I have to disagree with you based upon my personal experiences traveling to other countries.


I was talking about capitalism generally, not our health care system specifically.

You brought up the health care system specifically so I responded on topic.

It's rather funny to think that with the surplus of Truman-Capoteish, limp-dicked, intellectual cretins like you in contention, they'd still choose to become lesbians.....

Nice riposte.........but I have to point out one salient fact in all this banter....

In the U.S., whether they be of the "Truman-Capoteish limp-dicked" variety or any other variety, I assure you that not only is there no 'surplus' of them, but that people of anything approaching an intellectual bent are in extremely short supply.

The two staunch Republicans below....

http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/swamprat/images/RedneckFreeptardsWeb.jpg

....are far more representative of the intelligence level of the average male in Amuurica.

The most limited, short-sighted, and least-growth technical field in existence, eh?
That stuff shouldn't matter if you're doing what you like. I'm getting my degree in history for god's sake. Even I know that I can't do shit with that.

Although if I had to choose one extreme it would probably be the reactionary prick :D
Dammmmmmn! Brownie points for DF! :D

And we have better senses of humor. :)

Oh, and we're better in the sack. (Or at least, that's what I keep telling myself....;))

Nice riposte.........but I have to point out one salient fact in all this banter....

In the U.S., whether they be of the "Truman-Capoteish limp-dicked" variety or any other variety, I assure you that not only is there no 'surplus' of them, but that people of anything approaching an intellectual bent are in extremely short supply.

The two staunch Republicans below....

http://www.seedsofdoubt.com/swamprat/images/RedneckFreeptardsWeb.jpg

....are far more representative of the intelligence level of the average male in Amuurica.
Hey, I think the one on the left is my cousin. He lives in Mississippi too.

The most limited, short-sighted, and least-growth technical field in existence, eh?
No way. You're really bright, Borg - you'll find your way, and you'll probably wind up making a lot of money when you do. :)

I can't wait to be a janitor at a Whataburger.

No way. You're really bright, Borg - you'll find your way, and you'll probably wind up making a lot of money when you do. :)
Actually I was referring to my new boyfriend's choice of career... Hence Borg's scoffing. :p

Oops. :)

Oops. :)
With ya on the Oops, Prae. Damn, nobody never tells me nuthin!

:(
SMW

I think the one on the left is my cousin.

Ok.

For the record, my guess would have been -- twin brother.

Ok.

For the record, my guess would have been -- twin brother.
Ouch.

Just outta curiosity, where in your neighborhood did you snap that picture?

1. Just because someone doesn't share your opinions about history doesn't mean they are all "ignorant" of it.
2. A lot of Americans also conveniently forget that the founding fathers were all considered by many to be traitors, terrorists and murderers.

1. The point in bringing up Che isn't to criticize someone for being ignorant of history. It was the fact that their desire to be chic far outweighs their desire to find out the truth about him.
Do you really think that if these people knew the truth they'd so proudly wear the shirt?

2. By "many" you mean the loyalists who disagreed with their stand and felt loyal to the king, right?
Well Geez, I sure wouldn't have expected that.

1. The point in bringing up Che isn't to criticize someone for being ignorant of history.

I was responding to one of the other rightwing kooks who claimed they were ignorant of history.


It was the fact that their desire to be chic far outweighs their desire to find out the truth about him.
Do you really think that if these people knew the truth they'd so proudly wear the shirt?

I think you are merely repeating the sentiments of the other rightwing kook who called them "ignorant".

Why don't you find someone who is wearing such a shirt and ask them why they are wearing it instead of merely making assumptions?

What a novel idea... :rolleyes:


2. By "many" you mean the loyalists who disagreed with their stand and felt loyal to the king, right?


In other words, the Conservatives of that era.
The more things change the more they stay the same...

:thumbs:

Why don't you find someone who is wearing such a shirt and ask them why they are wearing it instead of merely making assumptions?

I've done that actually... Remember that this is a trend of people my age... I got answers like, "It looks cool." or "My boyfriend has one so I got a matching one." or "It was on sale." or "I dunno. I just like it."

Teenagers are generally ignorant and shallow. Take it from me, I am one.

Teenagers are generally ignorant and shallow. Take it from me, I am one.
Uh oh, now you're repeating the sentiments of other rightwing kooks, too.....

I mean, by Dharma's definition, I guess you can take it from me, I am one.

Welcome to the club, DF. We meet every day on Common Sense Ave at noon.

1. I think you are merely repeating the sentiments of the other rightwing kook who called them "ignorant".
Why don't you find someone who is wearing such a shirt and ask them why they are wearing it instead of merely making assumptions?
2. In other words, the Conservatives of that era.
The more things change the more they stay the same...
1. If someone wears a Che shirt (or displays a Che avatar) I am giving them the benefit of the doubt by claiming they are ignorant of the truth about him.
He was a thug who murdered innocents.
Would someone so honor him for that?

2. During the Revolution insults were hurled from both sides, and "traitor" went both ways.
There are a lot of great books on the subject.

He was a thug who murdered innocents.
So did Louise Brooks. Innocent trees, that is. Buy carbon offsets!

http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba/elian/imgs/gore_big_mouth.jpg

He was a thug who murdered innocents.
Would someone so honor him for that?

So was George Washington, according to the British.

Happy Fourth of July. :rolleyes:


During the Revolution insults were hurled from both sides, and "traitor" went both ways.

A lot like today in many ways.


There are a lot of great books on the subject.

Yes, there certainly are. You should pick one up sometime.

:rolleyes:

So was George Washington, according to the British.

Is that your real answer when it comes to Che?
I thought you were better than nyah nyah.

Is that your real answer when it comes to Che?
I thought you were better than nyah nyah.

I did not say "nyah, nyah". I said that George Washington was also considered a "thug who murdered innocents" by one side of that argument.

Likewise there is a side to this argument you are refusing to acknowledge, that there are some people who saw Che as a liberator.

:thumbs:

Likewise there is a side to this argument you are refusing to acknowledge, that there are some people who saw Che as a liberator.
Are "some people" right in this case, in your opinion?

Are those A-Holes in the t-shirts among those chosen "some" do you think?