Why is our Govt making a trade Pact with Vietnam, but still has a trade embargo with Cuba :confused:

Vietnam president signs trade pact with U.S.

Story Highlights• Triet said it was "passe" for Americans to associate his country with conflict

• Triet said Vietnam's business climate still has "much to be desired"
• Triet to meet with U.S. President Bush at White House on Friday
• U.S. lawmakers urged Bush to raise human-rights issues with Triet

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Vietnamese President Nguyen Minh Triet signed a trade and investment pact with the United States on Thursday and vowed to improve the business climate in the fast-growing Southeast Asian communist state.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5167/storysu1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Triet, on the first visit to the United States by a postwar Vietnamese head of state, said it was "passe" for Americans to associate his country with conflict when it is now wide open for business.

"We'll widely open our arms to welcome you," he said through a translator in a luncheon speech to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and U.S.-ASEAN Business Council in Washington.

While more than a decade of reforms and entry to the World Trade Organization this year had opened Vietnam's economy, Triet said, there was still "much to be desired" in the country's business climate.

"It is our determination to improve the overall business environment for businessmen and investors," he said.

He later joined Deputy U.S. Trade Representative Karan Bhatia in signing a Trade and Investment Framework Agreement designed to open more markets and streamline business.

Microsoft signed pacts under which a Vietnamese bank and other state agencies committed to install genuine software on their computers to combat rampant piracy, which has been an irritant in the two countries' $9.7 billion in annual trade.

'Evasive' on human rights
Triet said his meeting with U.S. President George W. Bush in Washington on Friday would "elevate our relations to a new height" after Bush's visit to Hanoi last November.

The Vietnamese leader visited the U.S. Congress on Thursday for talks with House of Representatives majority leader Nancy Pelosi and other lawmakers.

Rep. Ed Royce, a California Republican who attended Pelosi's meeting with Triet, said human rights was a dominant theme. He said the Vietnamese leader "had a response to the individual points, but it was very evasive."

"It's important that the world learn about the human-rights abuses there," Royce told reporters.

Vietnamese democracy activists visited Pelosi a day earlier and asked the California Democrat to urge Triet to uphold freedom of speech, religion and assembly and to release about 20 political activists detained or put on trial since Vietnam hosted an Asia-Pacific summit last November.

"In the long run, a free and democratic Vietnam will be a much more reliable partner than a communist one," said Diem H. Do, chairman of the Vietnam Reform Party, a group banned in one-party state but active in overseas Vietnamese communities.

Party activists would stage a pro-democracy rally near the White House while Bush hosted Triet, Do said.

A group of 25 U.S. lawmakers sent a letter to Bush on Thursday urging him to raise the cases of detained activists and broader human-rights issues with Triet.

Triet began is his trip in New York and is scheduled to visit California after two days in the U.S. capital.

See HERE (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/22/vietnam.us.reut/index.html) for source

Anyone :confused:

Beats me. I never understood why we still aren't on good terms with Cuba, at least economically.

For starters, you're premise of we Darkfantasy, is a presumption -- not fact. I know you didn't mean it that way so I let it pass with just this small mention that it's only the right wing that wants to keep Cuba isolated. The left wing, given a chance, would heal the wounds today and I'd be in Habana pulling the slot machine arms and drinking Cuba Libra's instead of discussing this. :D

Anyway ... here's how I see it ...

The U.S. is still pi$$ed-off over how foolish and stupid we looked after the mess they made of Playa Girón, AKA Bahía de Cochinos and best known as the Bay of Pigs. FWIW: I attended that little party.

The U.S. is still pi$$ed-off over how foolish and stupid we looked after a handful of assassination attempts on Fidfel all failed miserably.

The U.S. is pi$$ed off that Cuba has the best health care in the world -- that many countries travel there to study the Cuban methods of research and distribution of that system, making our feeble attempts to cure the masses, look like a fluster-cuck.

The U.S. (right wing only) is pi$$ed off that they have to kiss a$$ of all the Miami Cubans to keep Florida in the Republican column on election day, always giving hints to how they will be allowed to someday return home to Cuba and regain what was taken from them, but deep down inside, none of them give a crap about the welfare of the Miami Cubans other than their votes. Most of the Miami Cubans now know the Muriel boatlift was a one-way ticket.

The U.S. is still pi$$ed off that a handful of rag-tag soldiers, led by Fidel, his brother Raul, Celia Sanchez, and a doctor-turned-revolutionary from Argentina, could spend years living like rats in exile on the jungle hillsides of the Sierra Maestra mountains and never give up on their dream of taking Cuba from the clutches of Fulgencio Batista, a U.S. a$$-kisser.

The U.S. is pi$$ed-off that a young man named Ernesto Guevara de la Serna -- better known as Che could travel the world as a loved-revolutionary, except in only one country ... the United States where the right wing media turned him into a boogeyman, many of whom, still believe it today.

Most of all, the right wing of america is super-pi$$ed-off that Che, still today sells more t-shirts, ball caps and posters than any person in history, including Jesus and their fake Jesus, Ronald Reagan.

On edit: Added Celia Sanchez to the list of militants and revolutionaries

Thanks Lungdop. An interesting read. I know zero about the relations between Cuba and the US. Someone told me the relations were fractured due to a Russian move into Cuba during the cold war. They told me the States were merely defending their borders.

I still don't understand it. Just know many Canadians love to vacation there. Also when a former prime minister died the only person who they could sit beside Fidel (who attended the funeral) was Jimmy Carter. So that was who they sent.

Thanks Lungdop. An interesting read. I know zero about the relations between Cuba and the US. Someone told me the relations were fractured due to a Russian move into Cuba during the cold war. They told me the States were merely defending their borders.

I still don't understand it. Just know many Canadians love to vacation there. Also when a former prime minister died the only person who they could sit beside Fidel (who attended the funeral) was Jimmy Carter. So that was who they sent.

It appears you are referring to the Cuban Missile Cirisis of 1962 when the U.S.S.R. installed some missle sites in Cuba, causing a rhubarb that could have led to a nuclear showdown. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and we are still here on planet earth, attached by gravity and acting out our part of the great experiment.

Certainly that period strained some relations, but many events have built up over the years between us and Cuba as outlined in my intentionally sarcastic post, most of which is true, all of which is opinion and none of which is entirely inclusive.

Bottom line for me ... the U.S. is being stubborn beyond compare as we witness country after country mending fences with Cuba, travelling there freely and enjoying the wonderful history and tradition that country offers.

Someone needs to tell the U.S. people that the 60's is over. We killed er.... make that murdered Che in 1967 in the La Higuera area of Vallegrande, Bolivia -- there is precious little left that would be meaningful after that.

I'm pretty sure that Cuba and Fidel allowed the former Soviet Union to move nuclear weapons into Cuba to use against the US. A mere 90 miles from the Florida coastline. I'm pretty sure that Fidel is still in charge of that country. What more do you need? Fidel is hostile to the US. Vietnam has actually made progress since The Vietnam War and the Cold War.

I'm pretty sure that Cuba and Fidel allowed the former Soviet Union to move nuclear weapons into Cuba to use against the US. A mere 90 miles from the Florida coastline. I'm pretty sure that Fidel is still in charge of that country. What more do you need? Fidel is hostile to the US. Vietnam has actually made progress since The Vietnam War and the Cold War.

Yep. It's pretty much that simple in reality.

I'm pretty sure that Cuba and Fidel allowed the former Soviet Union to move nuclear weapons into Cuba to use against the US. A mere 90 miles from the Florida coastline. I'm pretty sure that Fidel is still in charge of that country. What more do you need? Fidel is hostile to the US. Vietnam has actually made progress since The Vietnam War and the Cold War.
I wonder what kind of progress do you mean in this context? Forgiving the United States its war crimes?

For starters, you're premise of we Darkfantasy, is a presumption -- not fact. I know you didn't mean it that way so I let it pass with just this small mention that it's only the right wing that wants to keep Cuba isolated. The left wing, given a chance, would heal the wounds today and I'd be in Habana pulling the slot machine arms and drinking Cuba Libra's instead of discussing this. :D

Anyway ... here's how I see it ...

The U.S. is still pi$$ed-off over how foolish and stupid we looked after the mess they made of Playa Girón, AKA Bahía de Cochinos and best known as the Bay of Pigs. FWIW: I attended that little party.

The U.S. is still pi$$ed-off over how foolish and stupid we looked after a handful of assassination attempts on Fidfel all failed miserably.

The U.S. is pi$$ed off that Cuba has the best health care in the world -- that many countries travel there to study the Cuban methods of research and distribution of that system, making our feeble attempts to cure the masses, look like a fluster-cuck.

The U.S. (right wing only) is pi$$ed off that they have to kiss a$$ of all the Miami Cubans to keep Florida in the Republican column on election day, always giving hints to how they will be allowed to someday return home to Cuba and regain what was taken from them, but deep down inside, none of them give a crap about the welfare of the Miami Cubans other than their votes. Most of the Miami Cubans now know the Muriel boatlift was a one-way ticket.

The U.S. is still pi$$ed off that a handful of rag-tag soldiers, led by Fidel, his brother Raul, Celia Sanchez, and a doctor-turned-revolutionary from Argentina, could spend years living like rats in exile on the jungle hillsides of the Sierra Maestra mountains and never give up on their dream of taking Cuba from the clutches of Fulgencio Batista, a U.S. a$$-kisser.

The U.S. is pi$$ed-off that a young man named Ernesto Guevara de la Serna -- better known as Che could travel the world as a loved-revolutionary, except in only one country ... the United States where the right wing media turned him into a boogeyman, many of whom, still believe it today.

Most of all, the right wing of america is super-pi$$ed-off that Che, still today sells more t-shirts, ball caps and posters than any person in history, including Jesus and their fake Jesus, Ronald Reagan.

On edit: Added Celia Sanchez to the list of militants and revolutionaries

The 60's were the best ever weren't they. Some people just can't over that.

That interpretation is so facile it makes a high school sophmore look like a foreign policy expert.

I'm pretty sure that Cuba and Fidel allowed the former Soviet Union to move nuclear weapons into Cuba to use against the US. A mere 90 miles from the Florida coastline. I'm pretty sure that Fidel is still in charge of that country. What more do you need? Fidel is hostile to the US. Vietnam has actually made progress since The Vietnam War and the Cold War.

The USSR put the missles in Cuba as a direct response to the US placing similar missiles in Turkey, within 15 minute flight time to both Moscow and Lenningrad.

And I guess you're sure that Fidel was really going to launch those missiles at the US and watch every square inch of Cuba turned into glass.

The USSR put the missles in Cuba as a direct response to the US placing similar missiles in Turkey, within 15 minute flight time to both Moscow and Lenningrad.

And I guess you're sure that Fidel was really going to launch those missiles at the US and watch every square inch of Cuba turned into glass.


What gives you the idea Fidel would have been making the decision, on whether to launch those missiles, or not? I'm not so sure he had any control over the situation.

What gives you the idea Fidel would have been making the decision, on whether to launch those missiles, or not? I'm not so sure he had any control over the situation.

Fidel did have control over the missiles. The soviets sent their technicians there only to install / calibrate the missiles and train the cubans. Any direct on-site support beyond that had not arrived yet in Cuba and most think there was no intent of the soviets directly supporting the missiles. The crisis never lasted long enough to get a clear answer on the soviet intent.

Apparently you don't understand that in 1962 Cuba, Fidel controlled everything -- absolutely no one told Fidel how to handle his business.

Fidel did have control over the missiles. The soviets sent their technicians there only to install / calibrate the missiles and train the cubans. Any direct on-site support beyond that had not arrived yet in Cuba and most think there was no intent of the soviets directly supporting the missiles. The crisis never lasted long enough to get a clear answer on the soviet intent.

Apparently you don't understand that in 1962 Cuba, Fidel controlled everything -- absolutely no one told Fidel how to handle his business.


As long as there was a Russian tech. on those missiles, I doubt Castro had very much control, of them. He may have been able to kill someone who launched one, but I doubt he could have stopped it from happening. But all is mute.
Why we have not, in the last 46 years, normalized relations can only be answered by the Presidents who have served during that period. Anything else is speculation.

As long as there was a Russian tech. on those missiles, I doubt Castro had very much control, of them. He may have been able to kill someone who launched one, but I doubt he could have stopped it from happening. But all is mute.

I'll say it again ... no one in 1962 Cuba told Fidel what to do or what not to do -- no one.


Why we have not, in the last 64 years, normalized relations can only be answered by the Presidents who have served during that period. Anything else is speculation.


Again I see the use of the word we implying all americans are in favor of Cuba's isolation.

It's only the right wing that hates Fidel and Cuba and they do so because of talk radio and party affiliation (in for a penny, in for a pound). So please do not speak for the rest of us that want to normalize relations and truly do understand that period. It is not speculation to those od us that can think for ourselves.

I'll say it again ... no one in 1962 Cuba told Fidel what to do or what not to do -- no one.



Again I see the use of the word we implying all americans are in favor of Cuba's isolation.

It's only the right wing that hates Fidel and Cuba and they do so because of talk radio and party affiliation (in for a penny, in for a pound). So please do not speak for the rest of us that want to normalize relations and truly do understand that period. It is not speculation to those od us that can think for ourselves.

No, the use of the word "we" refers to America (the country, not the people). Not right wing, not left wing, but the country. The normalization of relations is up to the President, and Congress. They are the only people who can answer the question posed at the start of this thread.

No, the use of the word "we" refers to America (the country, not the people). Not right wing, not left wing, but the country. The normalization of relations is up to the President, and Congress. They are the only people who can answer the question posed at the start of this thread.

"We the people ... " Abraham Lincoln (and others) ... study up on your history ...

only the right wing needs a president and congress to think and decide for them -- liberals have learned to think on thier own.

"We the people ... " Abraham Lincoln (and others) ... study up on your history ...

only the right wing needs a president and congress to think and decide for them -- liberals have learned to think on thier own.

Then please explain why LBJ, Carter, and Clinton, the three liberal presidents, didn't normalize relations. They all served with a sympathetic congress, for most of their terms in office. So thats no excuse. Or were they not capable of "thinking for themselves"?

Then please explain why LBJ, Carter, and Clinton, the three liberal presidents, didn't normalize relations. They all served with a sympathetic congress, for most of their terms in office. So thats no excuse. Or were they not capable of "thinking for themselves"?

LBJ and Carter were cold war presidents, fer crying out loud. Please think before you ask those kind of questions.

Clinton was too busy fighting off impeachments, interns and the Gingrich congress.

LBJ and Carter were cold war presidents, fer crying out loud. Please think before you ask those kind of questions.

Clinton was too busy fighting off impeachments, interns and the Gingrich congress.


Now your just making excuses. Have fun.

Now your just making excuses. Have fun.

Bull ... I've answered all your questions .. show me one I've ducked.

Now how about you answer one for me?

Why do you hate Cuba and Fidel? That's not rhetorical.

it's only the right wing that wants to keep Cuba isolated.

That's really not true, Lungdop. I consider myself a conservative and I am against the Cuban embargo. Most conservatives, or as you refer to them members of the right wing don't believe in embargoes. You are confusing them with Neo-conservatives and the Neos aren't true conservatives.

The people of the United States and the people of Cuba would both be better served were there no embargo. The way to change people is not by isolating them but by engaging them. All we have succeeded in doing is giving the Castro regime an outside enemy to focus on so that the people forget just how rotten they have it under Communism.

That's really not true, Lungdop. I consider myself a conservative and I am against the Cuban embargo. Most conservatives, or as you refer to them members of the right wing don't believe in embargoes. You are confusing them with Neo-conservatives and the Neos aren't true conservatives.

The people of the United States and the people of Cuba would both be better served were there no embargo. The way to change people is not by isolating them but by engaging them. All we have succeeded in doing is giving the Castro regime an outside enemy to focus on so that the people forget just how rotten they have it under Communism.

Your posting record here would probably would not show you to be a true conservative but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

I seriously doubt the folks in Cuba have it much worse than we in the US.

Bull ... I've answered all your questions .. show me one I've ducked.

Now how about you answer one for me?

Why do you hate Cuba and Fidel? That's not rhetorical.


Please show me just one post in which I even hinted at a dislike for Castro, or the Cuban people, and I mean the entire post.
Every post I have made indicates that Castro didn't have as much control as you claim, over the missiles, or that our Presidents (all of them) have failed to normalize relations. Hell, you're the only one who has offered an opinion on why.

That's really not true, Lungdop. I consider myself a conservative and I am against the Cuban embargo. Most conservatives, or as you refer to them members of the right wing don't believe in embargoes. You are confusing them with Neo-conservatives and the Neos aren't true conservatives.

The people of the United States and the people of Cuba would both be better served were there no embargo. The way to change people is not by isolating them but by engaging them. All we have succeeded in doing is giving the Castro regime an outside enemy to focus on so that the people forget just how rotten they have it under Communism.

It was assumed 2 years ago,that Castro was quickly running out
of money.He was spending gobs on his own security and political
survival.Very few pro=Castro Loyalists were willing to stick
by him.He was Buying favor.
Cuba needs to return to the Great Casino/Vacation spot it was
Pre-Revolution.Of course it was heavily enforced by Mob influence,then.
But Cuba will again be a place of Vacationing Americans,because I doubt
that Castro's brother cannot see the light.
Castro has fashioned himself some kind of Historic Communist Saint.
Castro was raised better.
He was rigidly schooled by the Jesuits.
I wonder where he went astray.

Your posting record here would probably would not show you to be a true conservative but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Actually I think my posting record does show me to be a true conservative, just not a Neoconservative, a horse of quite a different color. Neoconservatives are basically people who support Israel to the point where all their actions are based on that support. They don't care about smaller government, less intervention into the affairs of other countries, lower taxes, individual freedom or most of the things true conservatives care about.

True conservatives are what used to be called classical liberalsand they are not at all like today's Neocons.

Actually I think my posting record does show me to be a true conservative, just not a Neoconservative, a horse of quite a different color. Neoconservatives are basically people who support Israel to the point where all their actions are based on that support. They don't care about smaller government, less intervention into the affairs of other countries, lower taxes, individual freedom or most of the things true conservatives care about.

True conservatives are what used to be called classical liberalsand they are not at all like today's Neocons.

If you back the bush agenda you are a neocon.

Please show me just one post in which I even hinted at a dislike for Castro, or the Cuban people, and I mean the entire post.
Every post I have made indicates that Castro didn't have as much control as you claim, over the missiles, or that our Presidents (all of them) have failed to normalize relations. Hell, you're the only one who has offered an opinion on why.

OK -- I will take back the word hate, although it is implied due to you arguing so furiously against anything good about Cuba. According to you, it's nothing but a toilet and I'm willing to bet you have never been there to see what it's like.

Once more just so you understand ... when you say Fidel did not have control in 1962 you are exposing your weakness in Cuban history. A good way to get an extra hole in your head in 1962 Cuba would be to cross Fidel in any way shape or form, including telling him or even hinting that he wasn't in charge.

If you back the bush agenda you are a neocon.

So both Kennedy and Bush are Neocons on Immigration.?
Or that Education bill.?
prescription drugs.?
The Katrina Aid.?
Highway funding.?

So both Kennedy and Bush are Neocons on Immigration.?
Or that Education bill.?
prescription drugs.?
The Katrina Aid.?
Highway funding.?

You got me on that one if it makes you happy, notwithstanding you understand which Bush agenda I'm referring to.

And I believe I said you -- not kennedy.

What friggin' Katrina aid?

OK -- I will take back the word hate, although it is implied due to you arguing so furiously against anything good about Cuba. According to you, it's nothing but a toilet and I'm willing to bet you have never been there to see what it's like.

Once more just so you understand and I doubt there is a person on this board that will not back me on this one ... when you say Fidel did not have control in 1962 you are exposing your weakness in Cuban history. A good way to get an extra hole in your head in 1962 Cuba would be to cross Fidel in any way shape or form, including telling him or even hinting that he wasn't in charge.

You can not possibly be this dense. I said, and stand by it, that he did not control the missiles. He has had total control of the Cuban people for years.
Now since you can't find where I said anything against Castro, or Cuba please tell where you get the impression I think the place is a toilet.
I have never been to Cuba, as a tourist. The last time I was there was in 1972 or 73, as a Marine, at "Getmo". But everything I have read indicates that Cuba is not the paradise you seem to think it is. Otherwise so many average Cubans would not be risking everything to leave.

Actually I think my posting record does show me to be a true conservative, just not a Neoconservative, a horse of quite a different color. Neoconservatives are basically people who support Israel to the point where all their actions are based on that support. They don't care about smaller government, less intervention into the affairs of other countries, lower taxes, individual freedom or most of the things true conservatives care about.

True conservatives are what used to be called classical liberalsand they are not at all like today's Neocons.

Although I understand the ties between the neocons and Israel, I see it as more of a wedding of convenience. The US needs Israel so they can create the muslim boogeyman, cook the books for a reason to invade and kill those muslims and steal their oil while they're in the neighborhood. Without Israel, there would be no country to protect in our interest.

Said another way, should Israel ever cut her ties to the US, the neocons would still be in business without her. In fact, we would probably attack her next and kill a few hundred thousand innocents same as in Iraq and A-stan.

The neocons are seriously whacked out people -- I don't think Israel is quite to that point ... YET.

You can not possibly be this dense. I said, and stand by it, that he did not control the missiles. He has had total control of the Cuban people for years.
Now since you can't find where I said anything against Castro, or Cuba please tell where you get the impression I think the place is a toilet.
I have never been to Cuba, as a tourist. The last time I was there was in 1972 or 73, as a Marine, at "Getmo". But everything I have read indicates that Cuba is not the paradise you seem to think it is. Otherwise so many average Cubans would not be risking everything to leave.

Who the F said it was a paradise?

Actually I have to get some sleep. I have to hit the 405 early tomorrow to take care of some business (so I have some time left over for the beach :D)

This is a good thread.

nighty nite.

Lungdop,

How many barrels of oil have we stolen, a billion, a million, a hundred thousand? We would have had any oil at a far cheaper price had we come to an accomodation with Saddam Hussein.

Kennedy, a democrat, was responsible for the bay of pigs invasion that has knocked republicans for a loop for 40 years. :rolleyes:

The Democrats of course have been the mighty castigaters of the 'republican' position haven't they.:rolleyes:
That's why one sees how the democrats have consistently sponsored bills in congress to normalize relations, right?
That's why Democratic presidents have led the fight to normalize relations with Cuba, right?
That's why democrats have ignored the cuban vote in florida, right?
It's just a republican thing, right?

I wish I knew how to put one of those avatars at the bottom of a post about how much stupider the world gets when you post this drivel.

Wow Waldo, you certainly are one hyper-defensive Republican.

There seems to be an awful lot of that going around recently...

:rolleyes:

Defensive about what? Pointing out that the democrat's position on Cuba has been the same as the republicans for the last 40?

If you think (a gratuitous use of the word i admit) that's defensive i suggest you get back on your meds asap.

Kennedy, a democrat, was responsible for the bay of pigs invasion that has knocked republicans for a loop for 40 years

The Bay of pigs was formulated by Eisenhower ... not Kennedy.

That's why democrats have ignored the cuban vote in florida, right?
It's just a republican thing, right?


The dems have no desire to have the Miami Cubans in their camp. That's why we ignore them.

Lungdop,

How many barrels of oil have we stolen, a billion, a million, a hundred thousand? We would have had any oil at a far cheaper price had we come to an accomodation with Saddam Hussein.

Saddam was on track to switch his oil trades from Dollars to Euros ... that's all it took for the neocons to invade.

Saddam was on track to switch his oil trades from Dollars to Euros ... that's all it took for the neocons to invade.

As Greg Palast documented in his book, Armed Madhouse, Saddam was also going over his quota for oil production which kept driving down the price of gas and thus the profits of the oil companies.

That drove the neocons absolutely nuts.

Given time, the US will attack any country in the world that switches their oil trades away from the dollar. The only exception would be Russia who is simply too strong for the US to handle without going nuclear and ending it all.

Saddam was on track to switch his oil trades from Dollars to Euros ... that's all it took for the neocons to invade.

Excellent point.......yet another reason (along with controlling the oil resources in the Middle East) that the Neo-Cons were so insistent on waging war on Iraq.

Good luck trying to make ConservaZombie understand it.

Good luck trying to make ConservaZombie understand it.

Your post, besides making me laugh, struck kind of a wierd surreal note for me.

I guess it was because, although you had intentionally mangled the word conservative I still instantly understood it's meaning and context.

It made me think of how nice it will be in a generation or two when the young folks of our country will not be able to make that same connection. A time when the conservative party has been relegated to the trash pile and the only recollection of the word will be it's traditional meaning as defined in the dictionary. I can imagine a 2025 america where the average apolitical student will recoginze the word conservative along the same lines as the word Whig -- having heard of it but not really knowing it's political meaning and even caring less.

That sudden realization was the most refreshing moment in a long time. Just the thought of Grover Norquist's bathtub theory turning on the conservative movement, was awesome.

Today started out good for me, then it got better and now it's hit a real high. Kinda like my lucky day. I'm gonna grab my skateboard and head to the corner deli to buy a lotto ticket.

Thanks FreeThinker.

It made me think of how nice it will be in a generation or two when the young folks of our country will not be able to make that same connection. A time when the conservative party has been relegated to the trash pile and the only recollection of the word will be it's traditional meaning as defined in the dictionary. I can imagine a 2025 america where the average apolitical student will recoginze the word conservative along the same lines as the word Whig -- having heard of it but not really knowing it's political meaning and even caring less.



Sorry, Dop, but I believe that it is the opposite that will take place.

All you have to do is look at how the Corporate owned Media (aka the Rightwing Ministry of DisInformation) has transformed the word *liberal* over the past 19 years.

It has gone from simply being a word describing political ideology defined by rationality, thoughfulness and caring to becoming a word ---thanks to Limbaugh and his putrid ilk-- that evokes images of a disreputable unkempt miscreant who wants all the flags to be burned and the nation to be destroyed.

The future that I imagine in the year 2025 is an America where the average citizen will recoginze the word 'liberal' along the same lines as the word Whig -- having heard of it but having no clue as to the political stance it once described..........because the nation has been transformed into a theocratic police state so far to the Right that anything of a 'liberal' nature is but a long forgotten dream.

Sorry, Dop, but I believe that it is the opposite that will take place.



I certainly appreciate your opinion free but the math just isn't there to support the conservative movement much longer. The conservative movement is for (and by) the white christian people of the south and midwest (and a few other isolated areas) and there simply isn't enough white people left to keep that train rollin' down the track much longer.

This country is getting browner and browner ever day and that alone will send the conservative movement to the dump. The demographics are tough to deny.

The republican party is in huge trouble with it's base and it's about to get huger [sic] -- you haven't seen nothing yet ... wait until Bush signs the amnesty bill. Whoa doggy, will heads explode over that one.

The rumors are already flying about Cheney being thrown under the bus (then Gonzo) and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it happens. Someone has to go and the republicans who have seats on the line in '08 know it, especially those in the blue and purple states -- they need to cut their ties with the Iraq war and the neocon arrogance or their seats are history.

I won't say that I am necessarily right and you are necessarily wrong, but the bottom line is the facts support my side.

I certainly appreciate your opinion free but the math just isn't there to support the conservative movement much longer. The conservative movement is for (and by) the white christian people of the south and midwest (and a few other isolated areas) and there simply isn't enough white people left to keep that train rollin' down the track much longer.

This country is getting browner and browner ever day and that alone will send the conservative movement to the dump. The demographics are tough to deny.

That is a good point, in a few years the Republicans won't be able to cage enough votes to steal elections anymore.

The Bay of pigs was formulated by Eisenhower ... not Kennedy.

So the thought is now the deed. Your Lennist/Stalinst colours are showing.



The dems have no desire to have the Miami Cubans in their camp. That's why we ignore them.

Because their moral standards are so high right?:thumbs:

These are some very interesting views

Originally Posted by Lungdop Philing
I certainly appreciate your opinion free but the math just isn't there to support the conservative movement much longer. The conservative movement is for (and by) the white christian people of the south and midwest (and a few other isolated areas) and there simply isn't enough white people left to keep that train rollin' down the track much longer.

This country is getting browner and browner ever day and that alone will send the conservative movement to the dump. The demographics are tough to deny.

I remember watching an editorial on television a few years ago that stated that by the year 2015, there will be more non whites in america than whites. I never thought enough to believe it.. till now! :eek:

I remember watching an editorial on television a few years ago that stated that by the year 2015, there will be more non whites in america than whites. I never thought enough to believe it.. till now! :eek:
Yep. We built it - they can ruin it. Why? Because of politicians like George Bush. If amnesty is granted to 10 million criminals, then this country deserves to burn, and burn it will. I'll pack up my shit, take my money, and move to London seeing as to how our government is dead-set on cheapening what it is to be an American. (Although, the same shit's happening in England, so what's the difference? Who knows? More aptly, who cares??? I say, fuck 'em both.).

Yep. We built it - they can ruin it. Why? Because of politicians like George Bush. If amnesty is granted to 10 million criminals, then this country deserves to burn, and burn it will. I'll pack up my shit, take my money, and move to London seeing as to how our government is dead-set on cheapening what it is to be an American. (Although, the same shit's happening in England, so what's the difference? Who knows? More aptly, who cares??? I say, fuck 'em both.).
Maybe we should all start moving to Mexico. :D

Probably not the best idea....

As soon as we make Mexico economically viable, they'll just invade us again under the auspices of "trying to make a better life for themselves" in a country we "stole" from them.

Parasites rarely ever know they are.