There is a guy that just lost his daughter to a disease. He was very religious(Christian) he held a prayer meeting every sunday in his yard. Last sunday he held his weekly prayer meeting and said "lets say a prayer for Rush so God won't think I only think of my self and family". Well as you all know, Rush is still going on with his life, probably will never get into any trouble. The guy lost his daughter, he is very hurt that God was so forgiving to Rush but let his daughter die. He took his Bible and a cross out side and burnt them. He said if there is a God then how does he let low lifes live on while others (that are innocent)suffer? I ask the same question. I was also wondering what your folks take on this are? Will this guy go to hell now because he is mad at the way his family has been treated? He never said he didn't believe, he just said God isn't very nice.

He will go to hell.

“Why do bad things happen to God’s people?” That’s one of the oldest questions in religious history. Do you want the long answer or the short one?

I don't know if he's going to Hell or not, that's not my decision to make.

Once saved, FOREVER saved!

Originally posted by mad dog
There is a guy that just lost his daughter to a disease. He was very religious(Christian) he held a prayer meeting every sunday in his yard. Last sunday he held his weekly prayer meeting and said "lets say a prayer for Rush so God won't think I only think of my self and family". Well as you all know, Rush is still going on with his life, probably will never get into any trouble. The guy lost his daughter, he is very hurt that God was so forgiving to Rush but let his daughter die. He took his Bible and a cross out side and burnt them. He said if there is a God then how does he let low lifes live on while others (that are innocent)suffer? I ask the same question. I was also wondering what your folks take on this are? Will this guy go to hell now because he is mad at the way his family has been treated? He never said he didn't believe, he just said God isn't very nice.

1) I doubt trying to trick God into granting your prayers by praying for someone else works
2) Why would one prayer be affected by the other - i.e. why would helping Rush (if God did) have any affect on any other prayer.

Originally posted by Beneck
Once saved, FOREVER saved!
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by astrapol2
He will go to hell. So you believe in hell astro?

This is the Word of a Gentleman: "if we believe NOT, YET He abids faithful: He CANNOT denie Himself!"

Originally posted by LionelHutz
1) I doubt trying to trick God into granting your prayers by praying for someone else works
2) Why would one prayer be affected by the other - i.e. why would helping Rush (if God did) have any affect on any other prayer.

[1] I don't really think he was trying to trick God I think he was just trying to show God he was not selfish.

[2] I don't think he ment one prayer affecting another. He is just questioning why God would help a sh** head and not help his daughter.

Beneck If someone is saved and then goes out and murders, rapes, tortures, etc... are they still saved? I relize this guy did not do any of those things but he sure is pi**ed off at the almighty.

Mopo I don't know either, no one really does, I just thought this was an interesting story(very sad story)

Beneck If someone is saved and then goes out and murders, rapes, tortures, etc... are they still saved? I relize this guy did not do any of those things but he sure is pi**ed off at the almighty.
I thought a little bit about this whilst listening to Fifteen's song Jesus, the lyrics "I'm not the messenger, I'm just the messenger" made sense. If Jesus was the message, and all that he was supposed to be, to cure us of our sins, to forgive us, why do the sins still exist? It makes no sense to forgive somebody and say the are saved, and then watch them do it again, forgive them again, and then watch them do the exact same thing again. Obivously, they don't care. Why should they be saved if they are just plain jackasses? Why is Gandhi in hell and Pat Buchannen*sp* going to heaven? Maybe we are still waiting for the Messiah(If it is true).

Mopo I don't know either, no one really does
I do, because he doesn't exist :D.
One possibility is along the lines that nobody is guilty. Maybe God disowns people. Maybe he's just some jerk up in the sky who enjoys watching people suffer. Maybe he's sleeping. Maybe he's dead. Maybe he never existed in the first place.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Mopo I don't know either, no one really does
I do, because he doesn't exist :D.
One possibility is along the lines that nobody is guilty. Maybe God disowns people. Maybe he's just some jerk up in the sky who enjoys watching people suffer. Maybe he's sleeping. Maybe he's dead. Maybe he never existed in the first place.
I'd have to argue the claim that he doesn't exist for the same reasons I became an agnostic. I cannot prove He exists, and I cannot prove that He only exists as a figment of our imagination. No one can.

All too many people are too concerned with the rules of religion and what god they swear and pray to, instead of simply leading morally and ethically upright lives. IMNSHO, even if there proves to be some god, then I would bet He'd prefer to see humans behaving in a morally and ethically upright manner even FREE OF RELIGION, than killing, murdering, torturing, and devastating entire countries under the claim of following one.

MadDog, I think we had this discussion already before: someone who is saved, and really believes, does NOT go out and rapes and murders! It's only those that have no idea of Salvation and God and Jesus that do that, or those that have gone nuts and belong in the insane asylum. Just because some nut says he believes and then does what you said, doesn't make it so. He is erring and deceiving himself. A CHRISTIAN, one who follows Jesus' teachings does NOT do such things.
And Blib: Jesus is not only the message, He is THE Way, THE Truth and THE Life. When they brought the adulterous woman to Him to judge, He didn't say to her, "Go and do it again and you'll be forgiven", He said instead, "Go and sin no more!". Free will, see??? Apostle Peter asked however how many times he should forgive others, and he asked "till 7 times?" and Jesus answered him, "till 70 times 7", so at least 490 times, ha. But seriously, answer is the same as above to MadDog. But don't forget that people ARE weak, and might fall in the same sin again. Don't you? Jesus didn't say that once you believe in Him you will be a sinless saint. He said however that you will be saved! And they get forgiven every time, why? Because of God's mercy, which, by the way, He also has for you! And, by the way, WHY would Ghandi be in hell? Although being a Hindu, he was well aquinted with New Testament teachings, and had no objections against it. And WHY would Buchanan go to Heaven? (Who the hell is he?) Only if he's saved. There are lots of Christians that are NOT saved, just ask any Catholic if they go to Heaven if they would die THIS MINUTE. Just ask any Jehovah Witness if they go to Heaven. All people that consider themselves Christians. It's not what you consider yourself that gets you to heaven, it's what you DO: and that is receive Jesus as your Saviour. And by the way, He IS the Messiah, and no need waiting for Him anymore. You can receive Him righ now, this minute!

Beneck I agree if you truely believe then you are probably not going to go around killing. This brings up a good point, how about Salem Mass. and those that burned the "so called witches", are they going to be forgiven? How about all the good Christians that killed because the nasty indians would not believe in the Christian way. Those Indians were sitting here minding there own business and along came the good Christian telling them to convert or else. Was it right for them to murder, and is it right to murder today if someone doesn't except the Christian teachings? What about those from the church that turned there backs on Joan of Arc, are they forgiven?

I agree with Age, God would rather see atheist getting along peacefully then to see a bunch of holy rollers going around killing in the name of the lord?

Ha, I never heard that saying from Age before, but it sounds good! I certainly can believe that and say "Amen" to it. As far as the Salem witches, or the Indians, or Joan of Arc etc, I wasn't there and don't know all circumstances about it. Although I believe witches excist, and even have Dreamweaver on the Forum to acknowledge it, I don't know if all the people in Salem were witches. I don't know that priests or pastors were killing the Indians. I always had the impression that being the army or the white man settlers wanting the gold, or the land, or the what not. As far as Joan of Arc, here we have a real case of big mistake. Catholics burning a real saint. But you know what? They have apologized for it, and Joan is now Saint Joan. I know, that didn't help HER much, but I believe the church to have made many mistakes. But the CHURCH is not Jesus or God. The CHURCH claims Gods or Jesus' righteousness here on Earth, but where did they ever say that THE CHURCH will replace them? They didn't! There's no need for "A" church, as with Gods Word one is very capable of following Jesus' teachings. But I guess that's why "THE" church persecuted everyone that wanhted to read the Scriptures, as it was so against their teachings. I guess there are lots of other examples, like the Crusades, Dreamweaver mentioned about the Aboriginees in Australia, Protestants killing Catholics and the other way around. Yes, all CHURCH politics, but not Jesus' words.

All too many people are too concerned with the rules of religion and what god they swear and pray to, instead of simply leading morally and ethically upright lives. IMNSHO, even if there proves to be some god, then I would bet He'd prefer to see humans behaving in a morally and ethically upright manner even FREE OF RELIGION, than killing, murdering, torturing, and devastating entire countries under the claim of following one.
You know what, some Bishop said the same thing, guess what, he took it back.

Now Beneck, I don't care what a Christian is supposed to be, I care what they ARE. The bible appears to have conflicting points on being saved, one section said that you have to act and you shall be saved, not caring if you beleived and another section said that all you had to do was believe, and didn't give a shit what you did.

Beneck if someone claims to be a witch does this make them evil? I noticed you compared Dreamweaver to the Salem witches, should she be burned at the stake? Just because someone claims to be, or practices something, does not make them evil, or does it? There were alot of reasons indians were killed and yes alot were killed in religions name. I'm just wondering do you think those that killed back then..., are they going to heaven? I can understand them getting into heaven because they were just plain stupid, but at the same time religion told them to be peacefull. I do agree the church and people are not God or Jesus, but I'm not asking if Jesus or God can get into heaven (I would hope they are allready there:)). I'm asking if those folks back then would still be allowed in heaven, even after some of the stunts they pulled? If God would allow the Salem witch hunters into heaven then what is heaven going to be like ......hell? I hear people all the time say follow Gods word and you will be with him/her/it for eternity. So if these killers from yesteryear believed they were killing in the name of the lord, are they going to heaven? If yes, then what kind of a God would let killers into heaven?

MadDog, in answer to your question about comparing Dreamweaver to the Salem witches: on this forum Dreamweaver herself said she's a witch. Those other guys are called the Salem WITCHES. Now, where did I say that these guys were bad? In fact I said I don't know that many details about them, so I don't know about the situation. I didn't say or imply that Dreamweaver is bad, or those Salem guys were bad. From all I see from what Dreamweaver is writing, she sounds like a nice person, and not an evil one. Sometimes I wonder why you read what you read in my words. Are you continually on the defensive about this? Anyways, she said she's a witch, and those guys were called witches, so I mainly implied that witches excist, even today, because Dreamweaver told us that she's one.
As far as those "back then" going to Heaven: I don't know! I don't know who they were, or if they were indeed Christians, well-meaning or not. I doubt they go to Heaven for killing the "Salem witches", it says in the Bible that you go to Heaven by believing on Jesus. Now anyone can kill witches without having to be a Christian, or kill Christians without having to be a witch, but killing doesn't get anyone to Heaven at any time. It doesn't matter that they believe that or not, just like the Muslim Holy War or suicide bombers: that's a religious idea that's so off, and so far from what Jesus preaches. Jesus also said about HIS disciples that there will come a time that people will kill them and think they do God a favor, implying that they're NOT doing GOD a favor. "Thou shalt not kill". Is there anywhere a loophole, or some (un)reasonable doubt in these few words??? And... dear MadDog, my God lets ANY and ALL killers in Heaven, providing they repent, turn around and receive Jesus and get saved, because, THEN, they will be born again, and no longer be the old man, but a new person. And the old things are done away with. Not so on earth, where murders and killers still have to pay for their crimes, but as far as God is concerned, once they get saved, that's it, they are forgiven and go to Heaven!

[1] Sorry Beneck, I read more into your post then I should have. The Salem witches were killed under Christian laws (of coarse these laws were made by humans, at the time), because they posed a threat to Christians(or atleast that is what they believed back then). So when you compared DW to the Salem witches this is why I got confussed. I do agree alot of the folks back then were never even proven to be witches. In fact there is a show on TV that tells how little children accussed people of being witches and the "judges" believed them.

[2] I have not taken offence to anything you have written, but it seems like you are taking offence to my posts?

[3] Yes DW has said she is a witch or atleast practices that type of religion. Usually when a "good" Christian talks about witches(devils, demons, etc...)they mean it in a bad way. From what you have just written I can see you don't feel this way, sorry to have assumed.

[4] I am still alittle confussed first you say God won't let killers into heaven then you say if they accept Jesus then they will get into heaven. I understand that if someone kills and relizes it was wrong then they can repent. Now these Salem witch hunters believed what they did was right(in the name of Christ) so why would they repent? They considered witches to be devils, so they killed them. My question is if they believed they were right then how does God look at them? Now you wrote "Thou shalt not kill"..... would you kill the devil if you could? If you decided to kill the devil what is your proof that the one you killed was really the devil? Maybe you just played into the hands of the devil by killing someone that was innocent? Now you believed you did right by God, but in reality you killed an innocent, how is God going to look at this? Are you given a chance(in heaven) to repent for something you did that you believed was right?

I hope I did a better job with my questions this time sorry to have gotten your blood pressure up :).

In answer to the question:

Simply, no. If the same god many claim is the epitomy of love would not accept BillX just because he left his church, but still led an ethical and morally upright life, it would be a sad situation indeed.

In the event there is a god, I would think he would judge each man by who and what they are, their virtues, their vices, and whether or not they are a good person... not just by whether or not they're a member or former member of a particular group.

I agree Age. This guy was on talk radio and it was very sad to listen to him. He believed very strongly in his pray and religion, so not only did he loose his daughter, but he also lost faith in something he believed was good,.... very sad.

MadDog: apologies accepted, please accept mine too, maybe I overreact too! My bloodpressure is down again, ha! God bless!
If these guys in Salem believe that they did God a service, or it was "good" to kill a few people that are accused of being witches: that doesn't get them into Heaven. Once they die they will find out that their "good works" (and their bad ones too) have gone on before them, and will be a witness against them. Maybe they will not be sent off to hell, maybe they will land up for half an eternity in purgatory, but still, they will not get to hear "well done, thou good and faithful servant" from the Lord. You see, it's NOT what they believe, but what the Bible says to DO what gives salvation. I don't know if I would kill the devil, I have never felt any need for it, since I have never met him in person (I believe), like for instance Martin Luther claimed. However, with Luther I will say in his song "A mighty fortress", "One little word will fell him (the devil)", and that little word is the name of Jesus! Anyways, according to the Bible Jesus Himself will deal with that guy at the end of the Millenium of Gods rule on Earth.
According to some Bibles Jesus was crucified together with 2 murderers. One of them repented, and called on Jesus to save him, the other cursed him and Jesus. And Jesus answered the "good" murderer that he would be in Heaven with Him that day! I believe in the mercy of God. That He has mercy even on those that do not have mercy on others, that He gives forgiveness freely, but repentance is an important part of it. And of course acknowledging that your wrong.

Perhaps it would be instructive fer some of you folks inclined towards that ancient art known as "readin' " ta take a gander at Bertrand Russell's "Why I am not a Christian" and Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason"... I believe they're well worth perusin'...

In addition, ponder about when there's a terrible accident like a car crash or a train wreck or somethin'... If a HUMAN causes it, he's a dumb as-- dumb as you please... but if not, then it's determined ta be an act of God!!! Some day that Big Boss upstairs is gonna be facin' some jail time, don'tcha think???

Thanks fer chattin'... :)

i do and dont' believe in hell. i don't believe it is a place that god sends you if you're a heathen or a pagan or an atheist or something. i do believe it is a place that we create for ourselves on earth.

Originally posted by Beneck
As far as the Salem witches, or the Indians, or Joan of Arc etc, I wasn't there and don't know all circumstances about it. Although I believe witches excist, and even have Dreamweaver on the Forum to acknowledge it, I don't know if all the people in Salem were witches. I don't know that priests or pastors were killing the Indians. I always had the impression that being the army or the white man settlers wanting the gold, or the land, or the what not. As far as Joan of Arc, here we have a real case of big mistake. Catholics burning a real saint. But you know what? They have apologized for it, and Joan is now Saint Joan. I know, that didn't help HER much, but I believe the church to have made many mistakes. But the CHURCH is not Jesus or God. The CHURCH claims Gods or Jesus' righteousness here on Earth, but where did they ever say that THE CHURCH will replace them? They didn't! There's no need for "A" church, as with Gods Word one is very capable of following Jesus' teachings. But I guess that's why "THE" church persecuted everyone that wanhted to read the Scriptures, as it was so against their teachings. I guess there are lots of other examples, like the Crusades

I realize that monotheistic religionists are forced to make some incredible mental contortions and twists of logic to keep all the superstitious nonsense that they subscribe to 'straight' in their minds, but the above statement is truly sickening.

Beneck knows all about "witches" who exist in the here and now, but has no inkling of the tortures and degradations that the "holy" Fathers of the Church of Salem put the "witches" of that era thru before they murdered them in cold blood.

He "knows" all about the wonderful and "merciful" Christian God, but has no knowledge of the horrendous abuses and abominations that his anti-human "Christian" religion has presided over throughout Church history. He "doesn't know" about the Inquistion. He "doesn't know" about the Crusades. He "doesn't know" about the Salem witch trials. He "doesn't know" if priests and pastors were guilty of supporting and inciting genocide against the native American population in this country during the past 225 years.

But ask him and his ilk if their "god" is a loving, caring, gentle entity, and they will shout it from the rooftops of his compassion and his "mercy".

Makes me physically ill.

Even if i DID believe in the monstous and inhuman deity of the Christian religion, I would want to stay as far away as possible from him.

If you read all of the post you would know that Beneck blames the people not the religion. Quit attacking the Christians of today for what happened years ago, those folks of yesteryear used the church to gain power, was this the religions fault?

Originally posted by mad dog
If you read all of the post you would know that Beneck blames the people not the religion. Quit attacking the Christians of today for what happened years ago,

I will stop criticizing them when they and the leadership of the Churches publically and formally disavow the monstrous, barbaric, antihuman actions of their religious predecessors, such as the Salem witch trials, the Inquisition, the genocidal campaigns carrried out against those who did not share their beliefs.

Originally posted by mad dog
those folks of yesteryear used the church to gain power, was this the religions fault?

????!

You think that the religious factions of today ---the Religious Right being a good example--- do not use the Church to gain power??!?!

"True" believers do not use the chruch to gain power. They use the chruch to do good things, like bake sales, helping someone down on there luck, worship, etc.... Your blaming all Christians for what a few did, that's like calling all whites slave owners. I am just as mad about what happened yesteryear as anyone else but that was a different time with a different group of people. I would rather learn from that then go on with a grudge. By you waging your personal war on religious folks, what are you doing to help anything?

Originally posted by mad dog
"True" believers do not use the chruch to gain power.

I disagree.

Jerry Falwell and Fred Phelps are just as "true" in their belief as the rest of the superstionists that cling to the crutch of religion.

It is a complete avoidance of the issue --- a ploy much beloved of the religionist--- to simply dismiss all the despicable and inhuman things that religion has wrought as being the work of **people who are not "True Believers"**.

Originally posted by mad dog
They use the chruch to do good things, like bake sales, helping someone down on there luck, worship, etc.... Your blaming all Christians for what a few did, that's like calling all whites slave owners. [/b]

So in your estimation, a few bake sales counteract and negate the actions of someone like Fred Phelps, a Christian who goes around [and, it should be noted, interpreting the Old Testament of the Holy Bible exactly as it is written as regards it's murderous hatred for homosexuals] telling gays they are going to burn in Hellfire, or the words of the Christian Jerry Falwell when he says the "wickedness" of the non-religionists in America is what caused 9/11 to happen, or the Christians who are lobbying this minute to turn this nation into a rigid, unforgiving "Old Time Religion" theocracy???


Originally posted by mad dog I am just as mad about what happened yesteryear as anyone else but that was a different time with a different group of people. [/B]

True...it is not particular religious individuals [of the monotheistic faith that so thoroughly dominates and rules over America today] who deserve to be castigated, but their anti-human religion itself.

The minute that the religious masses in the America of TODAY fully disavow the actions of those "different" Christians of ages past, THAT is when they will IMO be beyond criticism and beyond bearing a shared responsibility for the terrible abuses that their religion has visited upon mankind, not before.

Originally posted by Freethinker
So in your estimation, a few bake sales counteract and negate the actions of someone like Fred Phelps, a Christian who goes around [and, it should be noted, interpreting the Old Testament of the Holy Bible exactly as it is written as regards it's murderous hatred for homosexuals] telling gays they are going to burn in Hellfire, or the words of the Christian Jerry Falwell when he says the "wickedness" of the non-religionists in America is what caused 9/11 to happen, or the Christians who are lobbying this minute to turn this nation into a rigid, unforgiving "Old Time Religion" theocracy???

As idiotic as Jerry Falwell is, Fred Phelps may be one of the most dispicable people on earth. I hope he enjoys his time in hell. But on to your point - yes, a "few" bakesales does counteract, but not negate, the actions of the religious extremists. You seem to think that the people that you read about in the paper and see on TV are somehow mainstream. The overwhelming majority of Christians don't subscribe to those views. But you refuse to recognize this fact because you want to be able to justify your hatred of all Christians.

Freethinker calling all religious people inhuman and haters, is no different then calling all gays, child molesters

Originally posted by mad dog
Freethinker calling all religious people inhuman and haters, is no different then calling all gays, child molesters
I wholeheartedly agree.