Did you know that there are more christians in Africa than PEOPLE in the united states?

Did you know that Africa and China are the two biggest hotbeds of christianity today...

It is safe to say that, with our culture being the way it is, no one is seeing true christianity here in the states. It is more of a perverse form... people who lash out, need to be right to console their egos. Christianity can not co-exist with a capitalist society, at least a secular one.

The reason there has been such an explosion of christianity in Africa is because of the relentless missionary efforts by the "non-true" and "perverse" forms of christianity here in the U.S. I seriously doubt that African christianity is any more pure than american christianity. In fact, from what I know, it's rather mindless. They don't have access to materials for in-depth research into christianity, so their simplistic understanding of it is easily corrupted by non-christian influences. Many african christians retain many of their non-christian practices - including the subjugation of women.

Did you know that there are more christians in Africa than PEOPLE in the united states?
I find it hard to believe statistics that tell me the religious demographics of Africa, due to the very rural living conditions that many tribes and villages find themselves in.
Did you know that Africa and China are the two biggest hotbeds of christianity today...
I'll assume hotbed means high conversion rate.

Elaborate on why this is an important, positive development.
It is more of a perverse form... people who lash out, need to be right to console their egos.
Yes, human nature is now perverse. Christianity is perfect. Who knew?
Christianity can not co-exist with a capitalist society, at least a secular one.
Been drinking with some Irish socialists at the pub recently?

:rolleyes: Christianity can not co-exist with a capitalist society, at least a secular one. Sure it can and it has been. Just because the United States is not a Christian nation does not mean that it does not flourish here. Gee, just look around you! We have freedom of religion in our nation and most people do consider themselves christians and who are you to say they are true xtians or not?

and who are you to say they are true xtians or not?

Well it seems that some Christians pretty much feel it is their right if not their moral Christian duty to judge others and defend their God even when it leads to non Christian behaviour. Sort of like: screw the love ethic... we are God's little soldiers...

No?

Not that I'm saying this with regard to Decka... just a certain "mind set".

Perhaps it's more a matter of geography than some sort of nefarious scheme on the part of Western Christian missionaries to shove Christianity down the throats of the African people.

They are after all closer to the actual homeland of Christ than we are here in the continental United States.

Food for thought.

Perhaps it's more a matter of geography than some sort of nefarious scheme on the part of Western Christian missionaries to shove Christianity down the throats of the African people.

They are after all closer to the actual homeland of Christ than we are here in the continental United States.

Food for thought.

Um, I don't think the Jews do much proselytizing.

Did you know that there are more christians in Africa than PEOPLE in the united states?

Did you know that Africa and China are the two biggest hotbeds of christianity today...

It is safe to say that, with our culture being the way it is, no one is seeing true christianity here in the states. It is more of a perverse form... people who lash out, need to be right to console their egos. Christianity can not co-exist with a capitalist society, at least a secular one.

Do you mind giving me the source of this statistic or article, thanks. I've been hearing both in class and seeing in papers and television, of an increase in Islam. Many Africans, mostly within the leadership realm, see westernization as a threat to their cultures and traditions, and what better religion from keeping away the miniskirts and lagers than Islam. The specific aspect of Islam that is rising, is sadly that of radicalism, especially in North Africa, which can be seen in Darfur.

There are Christian churches EVERYWHERE here in Korea. Everywhere. Id be willing to be there are more here per capita than anywhere in the US. Just thought Id through that out there.

The reason there has been such an explosion of christianity in Africa is because of the relentless missionary efforts by the "non-true" and "perverse" forms of christianity here in the U.S. I seriously doubt that African christianity is any more pure than american christianity.

ummm do I have to explain what different lifestyles means to a religion?

Do you honestly think that a person with a 100,000 a year job, 2 kids, a huge house mortgage, porsche payments, and living in a society that encourages greed as prime motivation will have the same basis and practice of faith as someone who lives in poverty?

I'll just sum it up by saying that the common american, myself included, let's their busy lives be the center of their world, and just happen to remember to go to church on sunday, while these people center their lives around God. While many parts of the American Gov't are based on Christian and Religious teachings, one that really doesn't fit the bill is that we have the RIGHT to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Christianity teaches humility, and explains that life is a gift. We should be thankful for that gift every time we see the sun come up... but in the hustle and bustle here in the states, it just doesn't happen. We don't have the RIGHT to life, and we really don't DESERVE anything... I know it's hard for most athiests to understand..


In fact, from what I know, it's rather mindless. They don't have access to materials for in-depth research into christianity, so their simplistic understanding of it is easily corrupted by non-christian influences. Many african christians retain many of their non-christian practices - including the subjugation of women.

No, I disagree. The church is much more moving, potent, and alive overseas than here in the states. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there is no such thing as a good christian over here.. I'm just saying the majority never take a step back, stop and smell the roses, and give their life to God the way others do.. they have too much to hold on to. Meanwhile.. People china, who aren't in poverty and have the threat of death are converting like lightning... It's not just an economic thing. Why would they do that? Why would they put themselves in danger? I guess there is some proof in the pudding...

Do you honestly think that a person with a 100,000 a year job, 2 kids, a huge house mortgage, porsche payments, and living in a society that encourages greed as prime motivation will have the same basis and practice of faith as someone who lives in poverty?

I understand what you're saying Decka. I have never been to Africa, but many years ago, I spent some time in Southern India working with an evangelist friend who travels throughout third-world countries doing huge evangelistic crusades. During that time, our primary contact was a wonderful man named Bose. He was a very fun and intelligent man. He had college degrees in five different fields, yet was content to work for God. He, his wife, and their two wonderful children all lived in a tiny house (we, at best, would call it a "shack"). The whole family slept in the same bed, yet there wasn't the slightest hint of inappropriateness. That's commonplace in India. This was perhaps the closest, most loving family I have ever met.

During another part of our journey, we stayed in the home of a wealthy landowner, who was also a christian. Even by American standards, this man would be quite wealthy. Yet he chose to live in a modest home with no running water and no stove. The cooked on a campfire, and the shower consisted of nothing more than a bucket of water and a ladle. They even did our laundry for us - by beating each item of clothing repeatedly against a rock, in order to dislodge the dirt particles. But again, that's also common practice in India.

One of these men could have been wealthy, but chose not to. The other man was wealthy, but chose to use his wealth for things other than personal comforts.

I too wish American christians could get a clue. Still, I really don't think it's about American christians being inherently more selfish than third-world christians (and I know you didn't say that) - it's a result of the cultural influences we have grown up with. We didn't choose to be born in America. We just were. Each culture has it's own distinct cultural obstacles to overcome - even those in the less developed countries. I agree with you that wealth and prosperity does tend to have a corrupting influence, but African christianity also has much to overcome. We don't see their sin and temptations though because we aren't looking for them. We look at them and notice that they don't wrestle with our cultural pitfalls, when we should be looking at their cultural pitfalls.

Yet in all honesty, on the whole, I think you're probably right. The Bible says "to whom much is given, much shall be required". American christians have been given much...

...and spent it on themselves.



No, I disagree. The church is much more moving, potent, and alive overseas than here in the states. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there is no such thing as a good christian over here.. I'm just saying the majority never take a step back, stop and smell the roses, and give their life to God the way others do.. they have too much to hold on to.

Having met many christian ministers in India, I have to say I was not all that impressed with most. Their knowledge of the Bible is pathetic, although that's not entirely their fault. The majority tend to be either extremely lame and lifeless in their faith, or they are extremely legalistic and controlling towards their congregations. It's hard to tell just how bad they really are though. You have to go with your ability to see through their bullshit. Around Americans, they are on their very best behavior, because it's from the Americans that they get their bucks.

You see, greed is not something only the rich possess. The poor also possess it - in the form of envy. And given the opportunity, most Indian pastors would be willing to sell out their integrity if doing so will insure some much-coveted American dollars.

Godsandmen's post really took a 180 from replying to first quote to replying to second quote. .

So let me get this straight. People who live extremely poor lives are better christians, unless they run churches? You wrote in a couple places that the 'poor' activities they took part in were commonplace in India. If someone dropped off a washer and dryer or a few beds for the kids--I don't think they would turn them down.

I don't know.... The idea that they do not want to live a rich life because they are devoting their life to a god doesn't seem like something to look up to. Seems like an even creepier version than organized religion in the United States.

Godsandmen's post really took a 180 from replying to first quote to replying to second quote. .

So let me get this straight. People who live extremely poor lives are better christians, unless they run churches? You wrote in a couple places that the 'poor' activities they took part in were commonplace in India. If someone dropped off a washer and dryer or a few beds for the kids--I don't think they would turn them down.

I don't know.... The idea that they do not want to live a rich life because they are devoting their life to a god doesn't seem like something to look up to. Seems like an even creepier version than organized religion in the United States.
the family bed concept isn't unique to India. it was the rule in America, Europe, and Asia before fuel became so cheap. it's just more frugal to heat one room at night than several, and easier with that many bodies huddled together.

Do you mind giving me the source of this statistic or article, thanks. I've been hearing both in class and seeing in papers and television, of an increase in Islam. Many Africans, mostly within the leadership realm, see westernization as a threat to their cultures and traditions, and what better religion from keeping away the miniskirts and lagers than Islam. The specific aspect of Islam that is rising, is sadly that of radicalism, especially in North Africa, which can be seen in Darfur.
According to wikipedia, US population around 300 million, Africa more than 900 million. About 70~80% Americans are Christians, depending on the source. African Christians and Muslims are roughly 40~45% each, depending on the source.

So that gives
210~240 million American Christians
360~405 million African Christians
360~405 million African Muslims

Godsandmen's post really took a 180 from replying to first quote to replying to second quote. .

So let me get this straight. People who live extremely poor lives are better christians, unless they run churches? You wrote in a couple places that the 'poor' activities they took part in were commonplace in India. If someone dropped off a washer and dryer or a few beds for the kids--I don't think they would turn them down.

I don't know.... The idea that they do not want to live a rich life because they are devoting their life to a god doesn't seem like something to look up to. Seems like an even creepier version than organized religion in the United States.

It does seem like a 180 doesn't it? But it really isn't. There are wonderful christians in India, and there are not-so great ones. There are also wonderful Hindus, and not so great ones. It isn't just christians, and it isn't just in India. It's the same way here.

As far as the wealthy landowner who chose to live a relatively simple life, free of modern conveniences, I suspect that, in his case, it wasn't just because of devotion to god, though that is a part of it. He had lived that way all his life. It's all he knew. We are used to all our modern conveniences and would never part with them. He was used to none of that, so he wasn't "parting" with anything. It's not so much of a "sacrifice" if you've never lived that way in the first place. He did have several servants though who took care of all the mundane details of life - cooking, cleaning, etc. - so in that respect, he still had it pretty easy.

So let me get this straight. People who live extremely poor lives are better christians, unless they run churches? You wrote in a couple places that the 'poor' activities they took part in were commonplace in India. If someone dropped off a washer and dryer or a few beds for the kids--I don't think they would turn them down.

I don't know.... The idea that they do not want to live a rich life because they are devoting their life to a god doesn't seem like something to look up to. Seems like an even creepier version than organized religion in the United States.

It seems that one of the original attractions of Christianity was that suffering here was o.k., the rewards were in heaven. This aspect kept the poor working in the fields to serve the wealthy.

I often wonder if the hear-say about rich Americans makes Christianity attractive to the poor in other countries. Possibly they feel that to take on Christianity improves their chances of attaining material things. They see seemingly rich Christians show up with wealths of food, medicines, etc.

I would say the movie "Fight Club"... as little as it has to with the subject, sums it up quite nicely.

Your possessions end up owning you.

It's only when you have nothing that you are free to do anything.

I Halfway agree with you... but someone who is through-and-through devoted to God would in no way turn to greed or fall temptly to it... Everyone sins, but selling yourself out for american dollars is a pretty obvious sign that you aren't what you claim to be.

Looking at the history of both Christianity and Islam, I'd say Africa having such large populations of both is a curse rather than a blessing.

The church is much more moving, potent, and alive overseas than here in the states...

ROTFL.

Children can, for the most part, be taught to believe ANYthing.

Hence, the extremely high percentage of them who grow into adulthood believing --gasp! what a coincidence!! <wink wink> -- in the same religion that their parents happened to "believe in.

Parents who were taught by their parents to "believe in" it. Who were taught by their parents.........ad infinitum.

In adult converts, the fervency of 'religious belief' exists in direct proportion to the ignorance and gullibility of the people who are having religion drummed into their heads.

Do you honestly think that a person with a 100,000 a year job, 2 kids, a huge house mortgage, porsche payments, and living in a society that encourages greed as prime motivation will have the same basis and practice of faith as someone who lives in poverty?

Christianity isn't just about "being poor" so, I would have to say they could if their focus was correct.


I'll just sum it up by saying that the common american, myself included, let's their busy lives be the center of their world, and just happen to remember to go to church on sunday, while these people center their lives around God. But Decka isn't that exactly why Christianity fits the bill for so many in our society. Just accept Christ as your savior... zing... instant admit card to heaven. People acctually believe that crap. Like there's no accountability for behaviour or the tenents of the Christian faith.


We don't have the RIGHT to life, and we really don't DESERVE anything... I know it's hard for most athiests to understand.. Now here's where you are completely and totally wrong Decka. It's not aethists who have a problem with that belief. It's Christians.

It has been my experience that my friends who are atheist are good, kind, loving and giving people. More so than most Christians and there's a reason for that Decka. It's because they THINK more than the average individual. They ask them self what is right in this particular situation? What is correct behaviour? How can I be the best person I can be? Not because some big dude with a club is going to punish them for eternity, but because they have set standards for them self that they have thought long and hard about arriving at.

There are good Christians and bad Christians. Good atheists and bad. But if Christians were truly Christians the world would not be so messed up. It is not about rich and poor financially it is about richness or poverty of spirit and that goes regardless of belief or bankbook. Belief will not help anyone, behaviour is what counts.

It has been my experience that my friends who are atheist are good, kind, loving and giving people. More so than most Christians and there's a reason for that.......

My experience has been the same.

The majority of the simpleminded, God-fearing, flag-waving, "This hyar is a Christchun nayshunn!" Christians that I have ever known (and that comprises a very large group of people), I would not trust as far as I can throw a mule.

My experience has been the same.

Mine too.

What if a spaceship landed and had all the answers to creation?
The aliens demonstrated that they had in actuality seeded the earth.
Scientifically demonstrated the beginning of all life in the universe.

What do you think would be the reaction of fundamental religionists?

What if a spaceship landed and had all the answers to creation?
The aliens demonstrated that they had in actuality seeded the earth.
Scientifically demonstrated the beginning of all life in the universe.

What do you think would be the reaction of fundamental religionists?


They'de crucify the aliens?

What if a spaceship landed and had all the answers to creation?
The aliens demonstrated that they had in actuality seeded the earth.
Scientifically demonstrated the beginning of all life in the universe.

What do you think would be the reaction of fundamental religionists?
Then at least for a religion like Christianity, the question of conducts still need to be answered.

I look at it this way. Natural beliefs, myths, folklores, and most religions solve the problem of metaphysics by providing explanations of how things happen. However, only big religions, especially the ones with formal scriptures, solve the problem of conducts by providing absolute morality and rules to live by, with all kinds of punishments and rewards. Cultures that lack such tradition (for example, ancient China, and interestingly the Greeks and Romans) developed solution for the problem of conducts separate from religion, in forms like virtue, law, and philosophy. Personally I find such traditions a lot more sensible than following some unchanging god rules, because they are constantly tailored to people's needs. But anyway, the point is, if the alien situation does occur and exaplains away the problem of metaphysics, I imagine a fundamental Christian (but indeed since the situation is so dramatic, perhaps humans in general) would still ask: "then for what rules shall I live by such that I may be rewarded now or in the afterlife, and how do I know that these are 'good'?".

ROTFL.

Children can, for the most part, be taught to believe ANYthing.

Hence, the extremely high percentage of them who grow into adulthood believing --gasp! what a coincidence!! <wink wink> -- in the same religion that their parents happened to "believe in.

Parents who were taught by their parents to "believe in" it. Who were taught by their parents.........ad infinitum.

In adult converts, the fervency of 'religious belief' exists in direct proportion to the ignorance and gullibility of the people who are having religion drummed into their heads.

I could say the same thing about your beliefs and opinions.. you are just gullible enough to believe them... that's a cop-out, which can be said about anything.

Christianity isn't just about "being poor" so, I would have to say they could if their focus was correct.

Agreed... but having lots of material possessions is a terrible lifestyle of a christian... It's so easy to fall to the temptation of greed and lust.. and not have God as the center of your life. It's much easier to do that when you don't have alot. However, China is booming with christian convernts.. and they aren't exactly living in poverty.


But Decka isn't that exactly why Christianity fits the bill for so many in our society. Just accept Christ as your savior... zing... instant admit card to heaven. People acctually believe that crap. Like there's no accountability for behaviour or the tenents of the Christian faith.

Agreed, anyone can CLAIM to be something, it's the decisions and actions you do that define who you are. Am I saying actions get you into heaven? no.. it's your accepting christ and having relationship with God. However, if you have that basis, your actions will undoubtedly show it.

Like so many of our so-called "religious leaders" in the states... their lashing out and slandering of people, along with their unacceptance and cold-heartedness doesn't lead me to believe that they are loving and caring christians. It's easy to be nice to other christians- but the point of being a christian is to be loving and caring to everyone else. One of my favorite verses is in Matthew, which tells people to shine among men, let them see your good works.. as a christian, you should stand out, not fit in.


Now here's where you are completely and totally wrong Decka. It's not aethists who have a problem with that belief. It's Christians.

It has been my experience that my friends who are atheist are good, kind, loving and giving people. More so than most Christians and there's a reason for that Decka. It's because they THINK more than the average individual. They ask them self what is right in this particular situation? What is correct behaviour? How can I be the best person I can be? Not because some big dude with a club is going to punish them for eternity, but because they have set standards for them self that they have thought long and hard about arriving at.

There are good Christians and bad Christians. Good atheists and bad. But if Christians were truly Christians the world would not be so messed up. It is not about rich and poor financially it is about richness or poverty of spirit and that goes regardless of belief or bankbook. Belief will not help anyone, behaviour is what counts.

Like I said earlier.. behavior IS a strong telling point of what is going on inside your head. I whole-heartedly agree that there are good athiests out there - respectful, kind, loving... they just don't pray to a God. However, like you said, there are bad apples... people who hate the idea of God, and need to boost their ego by claiming to be absolutely right, like they actually KNOW for certain that he doesn't exist.

I've already talked about the good and bad christians... my point is this. You say it is not about finance or the bankbook... I say its a big point. One of the most famous quotes from the bible is "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"... I consulted my bro on this, who is attending Duke's divinity school- congrats!, and it's not meant to be a threat, so he thought.. but just a warning. Having fat cash makes you comfortable.. too comfortable. When you are comfortable, you compromise, you don't do the nitty gritty. It's just like the old saying for boxers - don't get a woman, they make you weak in the knees- meaning if a boxer has a girlfriend, it distracts him from the main focus, which is training and winning the bout. It's the same thing with money/possessions and God... money is the woman that distracts you from the relationship with God.

ROTFL.

Children can, for the most part, be taught to believe ANYthing.

Hence, the extremely high percentage of them who grow into adulthood believing --gasp! what a coincidence!! <wink wink> -- in the same religion that their parents happened to "believe in.

Parents who were taught by their parents to "believe in" it. Who were taught by their parents.........ad infinitum.

In adult converts, the fervency of 'religious belief' exists in direct proportion to the ignorance and gullibility of the people who are having religion drummed into their heads.

did you terach your kids what you believe, that christians are stupid and evil and the scourge of the universe?

did you terach your kids what you believe, that christians are stupid and evil and the scourge of the universe?
Where in the post you quoted did it say that?

I am sorry, are you new here? Allow me to introduce you to Freethinker, World Heavyweight Champion of chistianophobic haters.

I am sorry, are you new here? Allow me to introduce you to Freethinker, World Heavyweight Champion of chistianophobic haters.
He didn't start getting this perspective until the internet came along, as he has stated on multiple occasions, so it is highly unlikely his son (yes, he has only one child, or at least confesses to that) was raised with such bigotry.

You new here? :D

so the internet made him hate all christianity with a burning hatred so intense it makes the long Mississippi nights seem cool? ya, that's normal :rolleyes:

Did you know that there are more christians in Africa than PEOPLE in the united states?

Yes, people are accepting the gosple and the gospel is spreading like widlfire in third world countries. I believe one problem over here why many don't accept the gospel is because people think they can live self sufficient lives, they feel as if they do not need God. Also, there is a lot of complaceny in the churches over here. Many christians are not that committed to doing the will of God. They are in their comfort zones.

In China, since there is heavy persicution against christianity, those who are christians have to be real with God. They can't be hypocrites, they can't be complacent, they can't live lukewarm lives there. If you are not sincere about God when under servere persicution, you will not stand. You will fall by the wayside. Your not going to put up with persicution unless your truly committed to serving the Lord. Unfortunately, many over here aren't that committed.



It is safe to say that, with our culture being the way it is, no one is seeing true christianity here in the states. It is more of a perverse form... people who lash out, need to be right to console their egos. Christianity can not co-exist with a capitalist society, at least a secular one.

Although there are some ministires that are doing what God has called them to do, many aren't. Jesus did mention that there would be both wheat and tares, He did say that not all who call Him Lord will enter into the Kingdom. Youtr always going to have tares, your always going to have counterfeit chrsitians who worship God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.

How can I be the best person I can be? Not because some big dude with a club is going to punish them for eternity, but because they have set standards for them self that they have thought long and hard about arriving at.

You can be the best person you can be, by loving the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul, by loving others(Matthew22:37-40), by being a doer of God's Word(James1:22), by living in obedience to the commands of the Lord(John14:15). The commands of the Lord is righteousness and truth. 2nd Chronicles16:9 says "The eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong in the behalf of those who's hearts are perfect towards Him." God desires for you to ahve a perfect heart. That doesn't mean He expects you to have a perfect performance and always do and say the right thing, but a person with a perfect heart will want to do what is pleasing to God. They will want to serve God faithfully.

There are good Christians and bad Christians. Good atheists and bad. But if Christians were truly Christians the world would not be so messed up.

I totally agree that if christians were truly living for God and desiring to be Christlike, the world would not be in such a mess. in the early church days, numerous christians were walking upright with God, and the Spirit of God was moving in the church. Numerous people were being won to the Lord, even those who were right into paganism. The power of God operating in the lives of the saints was amazing. That is why they underwent such heavy persicution. They were a serious threat to those who opposed chrisitanity. But too many christians today are not threat at all. They are no threat to Satan's diabolical schemes to devour humanity and lead humanity away from Christ who is the way, the truth and the life(John14:6). They are complacent. They are not doing what Jesus commissioned us to do in Matthew28:19. They are lukewarm. Jesus said He would spit a lukewarm church out of His mouth(Revelation3:16).

It is not about rich and poor financially it is about richness or poverty of spirit and that goes regardless of belief or bankbook. Belief will not help anyone, behaviour is what counts.

Jesus said a tree is known by it's fruit(Matthew7:20 and Matthew12:33). What you produce shows who you really are.

Christians that I have ever known (and that comprises a very large group of people), I would not trust as far as I can throw a mule.

It is wise not to trust people period. But I know many christians that are more likely to have integrity than many others who are corrupt and dishonest. I know many christians who would want to help less fortuante people, and although some non christians would too, I know many who non christians who wouldn't give a darn about people living less fortunate lives. At least those who are "true christians" wouldn't oppress the poor and many big business people do. Many who aren't serving Christ, are living for "self." When you live for "self," you more opt to do wicked corrupt things to others for selfish gain. People like that, you certainly can't trust as far as you can throw an elephant.

I totally agree that if christians were truly living for God and desiring to be Christlike, the world would not be in such a mess.

Jesus said a tree is known by it's fruit(Matthew7:20 and Matthew12:33). What you produce shows who you really are.

Hey J Man...another oldie shows up... welcome back. Now see, you are back and already we have an agreement on something. We are starting off on the right foot. :D
I always liked the last quote. I never quote it directly but it is apt almost on a daily basis at some point.