I'm curious--If so, why? If not, why? Thanks for everyone's reply!


the Capt.

Not really. At least as far as I can tell. It's interesting that you ask that on the religious forum, though.....at least it is to me, because I think that's one of the major reasons most people are religious. That is, religion is a manifestation of a lot of people's fear of death.

To support this view, I point to the elderly. Do you ever wonder why relgion becomes so prevalent among the elderly? Do you go to church, look around, and say "Why aren't there hardly any young people here?" The answer is simple: Some old people are beginning to realize they are going to cease to exist and they're having trouble accepting. Thus, they turn to "god" and his enticing you-will-live-forever-in-paradise beliefs.

The saying "There are no atheists in fox-holes" already acknowledges this to be true. Senior citizens live their lives in a fox hole of a different kind.

Nope...no death-fearing for me. It's the stuff that happens before death that scares the bejeezus out of me.

When your time runs out, that's it. No sense fearing it. Behavior doesn't hasten it, or slow it.

In response to Leper's point, I have found that many of the elderly people go to church for the company. In many cases their partners have died, their families are miles away, and they go their for someone to talk to.

I agree with Borghunter about life scaring you more than death does.

I don't fear death, I am more upset about leaving my family and not being able to cuddle my little girl again, or sitting down and having a cuppa and a chat with my mother. This thought brings tears to my eyes while I am typing. YOu could say I fear what I would leave behind.

Interesting replies. The reason I ask, I was watching a program on the Discovery Channel the other day called the "Roots of 9/11" and it made me think about how those people felt on the flight that went down in Pennsylvania, who knew without a doubt that they were gonna die. I have flown several times, and I can imagine being in that "comfort zone" one minute, and the next facing the reality that this was how my life was gonna end. I'm pretty happy with everything that I've accomplished in the past 26 years. I think God would, too. I've often wondered just how I was gonna die. I don't fear death anymore--it's inevitable. I don't go to church, but I do think I'll start. I don't like the whole denominational thing. Looks like Episcopal is gonna make a split. Oh, well.

Fear of death? No sir! I am saved and am in full confidence that when I die, life only begins! I have no fear of dying because I have full confidence that I will go my reward from Jesus.

That's a good point you made Borghunter, and that worries a lot of people: the time before you die. Will I be crippled, or in great pain or what? On the other hand, Dreamweaver, although I love to cuddle my sweet little boy too, I am in full confidence that we will be together eternally after we die. Death to us is only the beginning of everlasting life! And, Leper, I don't think that these old people only start going to their churches when they got to be old. They have done it all their lives, and don't know anything else, and that's it. Like in Russia, people are totally ignorant about religion after 70 years of communism, but old people that were communist all their lives are not turning to the ortodox church, but instead try to revive communism.

Fear of death? No sir! I am saved and am in full confidence that when I die, life only begins! I have no fear of dying because I have full confidence that I will go my reward from Jesus.
This is the part of religion that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside...the feeling that religion has made someone happy. Unfortunately, a lot of religion (pretty much every religion, except Wiccan and Buddhism) insists on forcing their beliefs down other people's throats, especially if that particular religion is in the majority in a particular area. I think that people who are religious should quit trying to "save" people and just be happy with their religion without putting down other people's religion (or lack thereof).

Borgie: it says in my Bible: "For though I preach the Gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me: yea, woe is unto me, if I preach NOt the gospel!' So, I have a choice, listen to Borghunter or listen to God via the Bible. Guess what I will always choose?
I don't cram my religion down your throat! You say your views/opinions, and so do I. Every once in a while I invite you to try it out for yourself, but so far you haven't done that. I am not a Jehovah Witness that bugs and bugs till people get upset at them. In fact, I believe I don't owe anyone more then one opportunity to get saved. If they refuse: that's their loss. In your case: that's your loss! But your own choice, so you yourself are to blame.
I am sure you are an atheist by choice as well. What DO you believe in, my friend?

Originally posted by Beneck
Leper, I don't think that these old people only start going to their churches when they got to be old. They have done it all their lives, and don't know anything else, and that's it. Like in Russia, people are totally ignorant about religion after 70 years of communism, but old people that were communist all their lives are not turning to the ortodox church, but instead try to revive communism.

Very good point. I think elderly peple go to church not because they are afraid of death, but because they have grown up in a world where going to church was the norm. If the fear of death was the main reason to go to church, churches would be full of younger people crippled with diseases.

To answer the first question, I am not specially afraid of death, not because I am a believer or for some particular self-confidence, but mostly because I do not feel I am going to die soon. But when I really consider death, I am not particularly brave - and, like Dreamweaver, I feel I do not want to leave the ones I love !

Originally posted by Dreamweaver
I don't fear death, I am more upset about leaving my family and not being able to cuddle my little girl again, or sitting down and having a cuppa and a chat with my mother. This thought brings tears to my eyes while I am typing. YOu could say I fear what I would leave behind.

I think this post is the best, death happens to everyone, leaving loved ones is the sad part of death.

Originally posted by Beneck
Borgie: it says in my Bible: "For though I preach the Gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me: yea, woe is unto me, if I preach NOt the gospel!' So, I have a choice, listen to Borghunter or listen to God via the Bible. Guess what I will always choose?
I don't cram my religion down your throat! You say your views/opinions, and so do I. Every once in a while I invite you to try it out for yourself, but so far you haven't done that. I am not a Jehovah Witness that bugs and bugs till people get upset at them. In fact, I believe I don't owe anyone more then one opportunity to get saved. If they refuse: that's their loss. In your case: that's your loss! But your own choice, so you yourself are to blame.
I am sure you are an atheist by choice as well. What DO you believe in, my friend?
You misunderstand me. I never said you were doing that; I was referring to religion in general.

Anyway, I once was a Christian, hated the "sinners", tried to "save" them, yadda yadda. So I had once tried it, and look where I am now. Happier than ever and no worse off without "God".

Well, here's my question for all of you: Does fear of death play a role in making people religious? In other words, is there anything to the C.S. Lewis (I believe that's who the person who said it) quote, "There are no atheists in fox holes."?

Fear of death, maybe, but questions about death, sure.

Leper I do believe you have something, just look back at 9/11, alot of folks started going to church. I don't believe it was to pray for our troops, I believe is was so if something happened they would have a foot in the door(heaven). All of a sudden they saw death and relized it could happen to anyone at any time.

Originally posted by BorgHunter

Anyway, I once was a Christian, hated the "sinners", tried to "save" them, yadda yadda. So I had once tried it, and look where I am now. Happier than ever and no worse off without "God".
What made you lose faith?

When I go to church, I never ask, “why aren’t there any young people here?” because there are just as many young members of my church as there are older ones. People have many different reasons for turning to religion. When I first started going to church, I was more interested in finding answers than being saved. I went through countless different churches before I finally found one I was comfortable with. I was never really afraid of death, I just wanted to understand Christianity a little better. Looking back, I think finding religion was the best choice I ever made. Religion really can change your life if you stick with it.

I imagine a lot of people do turn to religion because they fear death and want consolation. Problem is, they often want to be told, “don’t worry, everyone ends up in Heaven.” No Christian is going to tell you this. We believe Hell is just as real as Heaven and there is a chance you can end up there. However, no real Christian is going to say YOU WILL end up there. My point is that if you choose to turn to religion, be prepared to receive the full package instead of just the good parts.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
What made you lose faith?
I began to think for myself.

I've been a Christian for years and I've always been able to think for myself.

Most religions only allow you to think for yourself as long as you stay within their guidelines. I don't consider this, thinking for yourself.

I've been a Christian for years and I've always been able to think for myself.
Do you look at everything through a scientific point of view, and not a "God did this" point of view? Are you God-fearing? You have no hope if you have it situated in your mind that God exists, you can be punished, and don't think scientificly.

Dreamweaver, that IS absolute **BS** if you ask me, that "most" religions "allow" you to think for yourself as long as you stay within their guidelines. People are made with a free will, and nobody or nothing can stop them thinking what they want. What you don't seem to be able to accept is that people think the way they do BECAUSE they believe in their religion. You talk like you wouldn't be able to think for yourself, as this is how you see other religions!
And Blib, where does that nonsense of the "scientific approach" come from? God is not approached scientifically, but from a viewpoint of belief and faith. "He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that dillegently seek Him!" Has nothing to do with science, falsely so-called!

What if science proved a type of God but not the one that you have prayed to all along, being religious would you change your point of view? What if Jesus were proven to exist but he was also proven NOT to be the son of God would you change your thought, or would you still follow blindly and ignore the evidence or say the evidence was made up by the devil himself?

Originally posted by Beneck
And Blib, where does that nonsense of the "scientific approach" come from? God is not approached scientifically, but from a viewpoint of belief and faith. "He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that dillegently seek Him!" Has nothing to do with science, falsely so-called!

While I agree with you that most religions allow you to think for yourself, your penchant for quoting the bible several times in every post doesn't really do much to prove that you can think for yourself.

MadDog, If SCIENCE proved a different type of God, or a different Jesus than I believe in, I am not sure that I would believe in it. SCIENCE is also for 150 years already trying to prove the THEORY of Evolution, so far with remarkably little success. In fact, REAL scientist seem to be getting back to the Bible rather than away from it!
And, my dear Blib, the reason I quote from the Bible is not because I can not think for myself, but rather I prefer to let someone say it, who said it already a few thousand years ago, and still people like you seem to have a hard time with it. Just because I quote the Bible means I can't think for myself? Ha! I know a lot of people quoting a lot dumber books than the Bible, and they certainly look like they can't think for themselves. And it seems almost that everyone here on the forum is so buddy-buddy in their thinking that God doesn't exist and all that, that I wonder if some of you are thinking for yourselves, or maybe are just following the trend of the forum. I don't want to offend anyone, although like HaVok, I am bit blunt sometimes. I feel that the logic of most statements here can be applied to both sides. As far as "proof" and all, no one here has disproven Gods existance or Jesus not being the Son of God. Everyone is always asking me where the proof of my belief is. So how about you guys disproving a few of these "things", huh? (Or is that another hard one that can not be answered?)

SCIENCE is also for 150 years already trying to prove the THEORY of Evolution, so far with remarkably little success. In fact, REAL scientist seem to be getting back to the Bible rather than away from it!
Wrong. It has been proving it with countless successes, natural progression has proved time and time again that evolution occurs. Time and time again we have found fossils that tell us of our ancestors, it's the religious right that has been attempting to smash science down. The progression of genetics shows the proff of evolution, dinosaurs to birds, mammals spreading out to the countless millions of species we have today. We have tons of proof of god being nonexistant, and all you can say is "the bible told me so". We don't need this "god". People run back to god because of the title of this thread, death. Death scares the shit out of most people, and athiest's view of death seems even more scary, becoming nonexistant. So we have this god, and an afterlife, it doesn't seem so scary anymore. But there is still no proof, science has theories, but only because it cannot be SOLIDLY proven. Thats the key, you have to find solid evidence, evidence that says this and no other. Religions say "faith". Also in science, you can question a "law". Einstien did, and so far, his makes more sense than just a mystical gravitational force.

Oh, and exactly what I meant by saying "thinking scientifically" was that you find proof to back up what you think, not using blind faith.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Wrong. It has been proving it with countless successes, natural progression has proved time and time again that evolution occurs. Time and time again we have found fossils that tell us of our ancestors, it's the religious right that has been attempting to smash science down. The progression of genetics shows the proff of evolution, dinosaurs to birds, mammals spreading out to the countless millions of species we have today. We have tons of proof of god being nonexistant, and all you can say is "the bible told me so". We don't need this "god". People run back to god because of the title of this thread, death. Death scares the shit out of most people, and athiest's view of death seems even more scary, becoming nonexistant. So we have this god, and an afterlife, it doesn't seem so scary anymore. But there is still no proof, science has theories, but only because it cannot be SOLIDLY proven. Thats the key, you have to find solid evidence, evidence that says this and no other. Religions say "faith". Also in science, you can question a "law". Einstien did, and so far, his makes more sense than just a mystical gravitational force.

Oh, and exactly what I meant by saying "thinking scientifically" was that you find proof to back up what you think, not using blind faith. Blib, you just basically said that since evolution is a scientific theory, it has not been "solidly" proven. So that means belief in evolution is actually a leap of faith. Why do religious people having faith in something else cause you so much discomfort?

Also, in religion you can question anything you want. No one forces me to be a catholic. If i dont agree with what a catholic says then i simply search for others who think as i do. In my case, i dont even bother attending a man made church. I dont believe there are many legitimate churches in the U.S.A. that actually worship God more than they simply want to further their own earthly agenda. So how is it that i am not being allowed to question again?

On what Borghunter was saying:

I too was once a christian, and am now an agnostic.

What changed? I really began to look at things. I'm not saying that all Christians are blinded by faith, but I will say that from the perspective of someone who has experienced both sides, I found myself repeatedly being diverted from thinking for myself.

I left my church when I came to the conclusion that I could be a better person, both morally and ethically without it, then I was being with it. I finally decided that my tolerance for those that are gay, my tolerance for those that practice other religions, my tolerance for those that are DIFFERENT was being overrun by a 'need' to follow rules placed upon me, or those preaching to me. So I left.

And I haven't gone back since.

Do I feel like I'm damned to some eternal hell? No. Do I feel like I turned my back on God? No. Why? Because I believe the same thing that Galileo does:

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei

I am a better person now, a more tolerant, loving, accepting, kind, and peaceful individual then I ever was while a "Christian". While I do not "believe" in a God, I do not deny one either... I cannot prove either way. And if there is a God, I'm fairly sure he would understand my skepticism, and would fully support my goal to simply be a better person in any way I can... regardless of whether or not I left 'his' church.

Back to the topic at hand:

Do I fear death? Not so much death as I do how I will die, and all that I'll leave behind. I fear dying, with my last words to someone being in anger or in an argument, I fear dying and leaving something undone. I don't fear dying, I fear not living anymore.

Originally posted by Age

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei


I don't fear dying, I fear not living anymore. Great quote from Galileo. I agree with his thoughts.


And your last thoughts on fear of dying are dead on mark. None of us can stop the fact that we are gonna die. But we can change the quality of life we do have left to us. Great thoughts Age.

Originally posted by Beneck
Dreamweaver, that IS absolute **BS** if you ask me, that "most" religions "allow" you to think for yourself as long as you stay within their guidelines. People are made with a free will, and nobody or nothing can stop them thinking what they want. What you don't seem to be able to accept is that people think the way they do BECAUSE they believe in their religion. You talk like you wouldn't be able to think for yourself, as this is how you see other religions!


Things are not so set in stone for me. My opinions change as life and situations change around me. This is what I mean when I talk about thinking for myself. Mosts religious scripture and laws were written so long ago, that other than the ten commandments, they have little relevance to life now, and especially my life.

The issues which really annoy me, are where Catholic women put their lives at risk having more children than their bodies are able to handle, or their finances allow, simply because the church tells them not to use birth control. How dare someone put another human beings life at risk like that! Their beliefs are so strong that they believe the church is acting in their best interests. What a joke! They are there to make MONEY. Money seems to be the thing many churches are wanting. Why do you have to put money on a plate anywhere up to 2 or three times during the Sunday service?

If religion is for you, great, but the whole thing is too one sided for my liking.

It seems from all that I can gather that all of you are afraid. Not so much of dying itself, but the time before. My "imaginary" God gives me peace. About the time before, and especially after. My "imaginary" God tells me that I will live with Him eternally afterwards. You guys are always saying, "assume this" and "assume that". Well, if assume for a moment that God doesn't excist and it's all fake and all, at least I live unafraid and die unfraid, so in the long run I am still better off than you "believe nuttin'" guys. I think that just looking at the recent stream of books of near-dead experiences should give you a fair account of what it's like. Very few seem to be coming back that they were thrown in Hell or something. In fact a lot of them seemed to be thinking to be very close to Jesus. Wonder why...?

Dreamweaver, I agree with your part of the collection plate, and even with the Catolics telling women to have so many babies (do they still do that?), but I do side with them about abortion, and as far as the 10 Commandments are concerned: Jesus said a lot of other things than just the 10 Commandments. A lot about love, something everyone believes in, although they do not believe in God or Jesus. However, "God IS love!"
You mentioned already a few times though about "how dare they...", but that's their rules, their opinions, their church books. I am sure it's not any different in your Wicca believes. Don't tell me you can be a Wicca and do whatever you want, at any time you want, and never give a dime to further the cause, an no one tells you what to think, and you're all free to think what you want. You are controlled by your faith, as they are with theirs. Only they think they're doing good work, for God!

Originally posted by Beneck
Dreamweaver, I agree with your part of the collection plate, and even with the Catolics telling women to have so many babies (do they still do that?), but I do side with them about abortion, and as far as the 10 Commandments are concerned: Jesus said a lot of other things than just the 10 Commandments. A lot about love, something everyone believes in, although they do not believe in God or Jesus. However, "God IS love!"
You mentioned already a few times though about "how dare they...", but that's their rules, their opinions, their church books. I am sure it's not any different in your Wicca believes. Don't tell me you can be a Wicca and do whatever you want, at any time you want, and never give a dime to further the cause, an no one tells you what to think, and you're all free to think what you want. You are controlled by your faith, as they are with theirs. Only they think they're doing good work, for God!


Wiccans do not ask for money, as far as I am aware. It is also a religion which can be practised as a solitary (which is the path I follow). I do not like organisations of any kind where religion is concerned. You are right when you say that Wiccans can't go around behaving as they please. They show respect for the earth, and the things on it. Many also believe in the threefold law, which means that whatever you give out, you get back X 3, so it doesn't pay to treat others badly.

I don't believe that you need to give money to further any cause. Giving your time and putting a little effort in to make a difference means more than throwing money at a charity. Money breeds contempt, and causes people to be dishonest as has been shown time and time again as those in charge are being found to be 'cooking the books' of various charities.

I am not controlled by my faith. I am controlled by my ethics which were instilled in me as a child, by my parents. I could never intentionally go out to hurt anyone, but I can't say that I have always been treated with the same respect. That is life, and I have to accept that.

I am also not a believer in abortion, unless it is a pregnancy which will put the life of the mother in danger, or the child will be severely handicapped. Abortion is a very personal thing, and it is not a decision which should be taken lightly. It should never be used as a form of contraception as I have seen it sometimes used.

In answer to your question about the Catholic church, yes they are still telling people not to use condoms or to use birth control. This has been an issue with the risk of AIDS, and also the overpopulation of many poverty striken countries who are staunch Catholics. At least the women in the western societies have the common sense to practise birth control, it is a shame that others don't.

Originally posted by Blibblob
I've been a Christian for years and I've always been able to think for myself.
Do you look at everything through a scientific point of view, and not a "God did this" point of view? Are you God-fearing? You have no hope if you have it situated in your mind that God exists, you can be punished, and don't think scientificly.
Let's see: 1)It IS possible to apply science AND religion to a subject. This is usually my approach. 2) No, I am God-loving. 3) Your last sentence was completely unsound and unnecessary. If that’s what you believe, then YOU are the one who has no hope.

Some Christians do use the intimidation tactic. However, a lot of us don’t agree with this measure.

"There are no atheists in fox holes."? Perhaps, but there WAS one in a machinegun bunker back in the 'Nam War, once... Oh, what wuz his name? Such an... Odder... fellow... :)

Fear death? Sure, to an extent... dyin' means losin' at least the amount of control we have over our bodies which is somewhat disconcertin'... (Think of paralyzed folks as bein' partially dead, if ya will... ) Of course, if all brain functions cease, as I believe they do, then ya really wouldn't be WORRIED about that kinda thing. But the operative word is "if"...

An even GREATER fear I have is... immortality... considerin' the kind of world we just happen ta be stuck in at present... :) Seems ta be turnin' into a real yucksville sometimes... :)

Thanks fer yer question, it's a good one...

"Scared ta death of dyin', so I try my best ta live..." (Words from an old Kris Kristoffersen song... not a religious song; more of a "drinkin' " song... :)

FACT: "The only way to the Father is through Me." -- Jesus Christ Oh, how I wish You faithless people would only believe. Why must You have "solid evidence" or "physical proof"? Why not just believe? I Love You people is why I'm telling You this! For God's sake, please, understand! Jesus is Your only hope from eternal damnation. How do You explain Life?? God created Life--there is no other explanation, no perhaps, no by-chance. The answer is God! If You don't believe in God, then surely You believe that satan is behind all the madness in the world goin' on today! The Church is the One who holds back the "Lawless One" (Satan). I urge You, You don't have to go to church to be saved. Read the Bible, the word of God, and accept Jesus, and "You shall be saved". If You only believed....

Steve Nixon

Captain, you're exactly the type of person who gives Christians a bad name.

If there is a god, he will understand my choices, and he will love me for making the right decisions in being a better person.

As for yourself, I hardly think intolerance is what your Lord intended to teach you.

I do not fear eternal damnation. I know who I am, and in the event there is a god, so does he. Your words are empty.

I don't understand Your reply. If You believe proclaiming the word of God to be "giving Christians a bad name", then I'm guilty. I feel the Ten Commandments are perfectly understandable. God is exact in His Ten Commandments. "If there is a God..." gives me no confidence in Your beliefs--please explain. If there was no God, You would not be sitting where You're at. Everyone here wants proof that there is a God. My challenge is for anyone to prove there is NOT God. If You feel I'm too blunt in expressing my feelings for Jesus Christ, then I don't apologize, because I am. I am not ashamed of Jesus.

God bless,


Steve

I challenge you to provide proof there is.

Look in any mirror. God created Life, Brother. Nothing else can do the same. It is so amazing!

People try to convince themselves that this is all some big accident. That there was this "Big Bang" and life eventually evolved from what happened. If You believe this, then I have some "Ocean front property in Tennessee" to sell. What are the chances??? I mean, think about it. Simply look at the way the planets are perfectly balanced as to the gravitational pull that everything rotates around each other....I'm sorry,but it's too big of a coincidence. I'm not here to prove or disprove Jesus Christ--that's a personal choice whether to accept Him as the Savior or not. It's just frustrating for me, as for all Christians, to get people to turn to Jesus. "He is the only way to the Father".

Steve

p.s. If there was some "Big Bang", then God started it!!! ;-)

First of all, I'm a she. Not 'brother'.

Second of all, none of that is any proof.

Originally posted by captain
[B]FACT: "The only way to the Father is through Me." -- Jesus Christ Oh, how I wish You faithless people would only believe.

where is your proof.

Why must You have "solid evidence" or "physical proof"? Why not just believe? I Love You people is why I'm telling You this!

People believed in Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc... How do you know you love anyone here, we could be serial killers for all you know.

For God's sake, please, understand! Jesus is Your only hope from eternal damnation. How do You explain Life?? God created Life--there is no other explanation, no perhaps, no by-chance. The answer is God!

How do you explain Jesus as being the truth? Life is just that life, why do we need it explained at all? I believe in a greater power, but do question Jesus.

If You don't believe in God, then surely You believe that satan is behind all the madness in the world goin' on today! The Church is the One who holds back the "Lawless One" (Satan).

I don't believe in Satan, once again where is the proof that this evil one lives? I don't think the church holds back anything..... If there is such a thing has evil then it would be the believers that hold it back not the building. Besides there are alot of churches out there that are only in it for money, money, money.

Originally posted by captain
Everyone here wants proof that there is a God. My challenge is for anyone to prove there is NOT God.

Poor logic.

Proof of the existence of something is not equivalent to non proof of non existence.

To be more precise :
either God exists, either he does not.

A -If he exists, he may occasionnally give proofs of his existence. Then it is possible to prove he exists. But he could also decide to never manifest himself. Then it could not be proved he exists.

B- if he does not exist, it is not possible to prove he exists.

So even if it is impossible to prove he exists, that does not prove he does not exist. It is impossible to prove he does not exist.

Only a proof of his existence could settle the everlasting debate. Until then, we still have to live with our convictions - this is what christians call "faith".

Originally posted by astrapol2


Only a proof of his existence could settle the everlasting debate. Until then, we still have to live with our convictions - this is what christians call "faith". So what do you believe will happen when you die Astro? Do you have "faith" in anything? Or are you going to just be worm dirt?

Originally posted by captain
FACT: "The only way to the Father is through Me." -- Jesus Christ Oh, how I wish You faithless people would only believe.

Either it's a fact or it's a faith, not both. I have faith that there's a God, but there's no proof. Why do so many Christians have a problem with 1) having faith without proof, and 2) people that have other, perfectly logical beliefs. I'm a Christian (one of those quiet denominations that keeps to itself), but I realize that given what we know about the world it doesn't make a lot of sense and that I might be wrong.

Thank you for this opinion, Lionel. I could write quite the same thing from the atheist point of view : my belief is that there is no god, but I respect people who think otherwise and admit I may be wrong. I also consider most christian teachings as very wise.

To answer Havok : yes, I think there is nothing after death. In a way i hope I am wrong, and I may even be admitted in heaven if they have enough room. ;)

Hey, at least ONE Christian feared death...

Wuzn't there once a Mr. Christian who fled the scene with a

buncha... Bounty hunters on his trail??? :)

May God bless all of us...

Originally posted by astrapol2


To answer Havok : yes, I think there is nothing after death. In a way i hope I am wrong, and I may even be admitted in heaven if they have enough room. ;)
I don’t get you astra; you say you’re an atheist, yet you’re always talking about going to Heaven or Hell. What’s the deal? You seem like a very confused individual to me.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
You seem like a very confused individual to me.
Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

May God bless Captain

May God make everyone get back on topic. Please.

Why, thank You mad dog! And may God bless You too! :-)

Can I hear a BIG GOD BLESS for Borg

Originally posted by mad dog
Can I hear a BIG GOD BLESS for Borg
AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!! :p

Originally posted by Age
Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
OK Age, now how bout’ explaining what you have against me. Do my Christian beliefs frighten you THAT much?

I wouldn't say i fear death, though i'm not too keen on it happening, say, right now....

Originally posted by Mopoloton
OK Age, now how bout’ explaining what you have against me. Do my Christian beliefs frighten you THAT much?
Oh god yes... your Christian beliefs touting love for your neighbour, and leading a morally and ethically upright life scares the shit out of me.

I'm quaking in my boots.

No, really.

/sarcasm. :rolleyes:

you're canadian, age?
COOL
especially if you're really canadian. i just go around pretending to be canadian. pretty sad, eh?

Originally posted by Age
Oh god yes... your Christian beliefs touting love for your neighbour, and leading a morally and ethically upright life scares the shit out of me.

I'm quaking in my boots.

No, really.

/sarcasm. :rolleyes:
That was the only explanation I could come up with. Why else would you make such an inappropriate comment about someone you don’t even know?

Originally posted by Beneck
Fear of death? No sir! I am saved and am in full confidence that when I die, life only begins! I have no fear of dying because I have full confidence that I will go my reward from Jesus.

Not surprising that you and those who think like you would not fear death.

Those who have been able ---thru some incredible feat of willfull blindness and self-deception--- to convince themselves that they are going to "live forever" need not fear death at all.

And if I could have a frontal lobotomy performed or have some powerful hypnotic spell worked on me, I might very well consider joining the True Believers in the pleasant delusion that I would *live forever*.

But......the closest to describing the way I feel about it was something once expressed by Marian Noel Sherman--

""Religious people often accuse atheists of being arrogant and placing ourselves in the position of god, but really it is the theist who has all the vanity. The religionist is an ignorant coward who can't stand to think that he will ever cease to exist"".

Originally posted by Freethinker
But......the closest to describing the way I feel about it was something once expressed by Marian Noel Sherman--

""Religious people often accuse atheists of being arrogant and placing ourselves in the position of god, but really it is the theist who has all the vanity. The religionist is an ignorant coward who can't stand to think that he will ever cease to exist"".

If I've noticed a theme running through your posts it's that anyone that doesn't think like you, a supposed freethinker, is ignorant. Nice.

I've noticed this also LionelHutz

Please, don't get no one get a bad impression of atheists from Freethinker. Not all of us hate religion as he/she does.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Please, don't get no one get a bad impression of atheists from Freethinker. Not all of us hate religion as he/she does.

Its "he".

And even if you do not share my utter loathing for the monotheistic religions, I am happy to note that you are fully aware --judging from the tagline at the end of your posts-- that religion=insanity.

(How anyone could dispassionately and objectively view the Christian religion and what it has perpetrated and what it has stood for throughout human history and NOT despise it is a mystery to me).

Freebaser please give us your mighty wisdom of how the Christian "RELIGION" has done something bad? If you noticed I said the religion not the people. I do realize that humans have twisted all religions from time to time to meet there actions but show me where the religion itself did horrible acts????????

Borg I don't base all atheist on Freebaser, I've met alot of atheist that are very nice and respectfull folks.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Its "he".

And even if you do not share my utter loathing for the monotheistic religions, I am happy to note that you are fully aware --judging from the tagline at the end of your posts-- that religion=insanity.

(How anyone could dispassionately and objectively view the Christian religion and what it has perpetrated and what it has stood for throughout human history and NOT despise it is a mystery to me).

Hell... forget religion for a moment. How anyone could view the human race and what it has perpetrated and stood for throughout it's history and NOT dispise it is a mystery to me as well.

But some of us are mature and caring enough about our fellow people to not spend every moment we're awake spewing insults and making degrading comments simply because of what someone believes.

There's no proof to prove either the certain existance of a God, nor to prove (beyond doubt) that there isn't. To parade around telling someone that what they believe is moronic and insane, when what YOU believe has almost the same amount of factual support, is TRULY moronic.

And yes, I'm agnostic. But that doesn't mean I have to shit on other people and tell them they're half-witted loonies.

Thank you Borg and Age, you are voices of reason in a world of Travs and Freethinkers.

Originally posted by Age

But some of us are mature and caring enough about our fellow people to not spend every moment we're awake spewing insults and making degrading comments simply because of what someone believes.

And yes, I'm agnostic. But that doesn't mean I have to shit on other people and tell them they're half-witted loonies.
My, what a short memory we have.:rolleyes: You really should practice what you preach.

Apparently mopo the coward carries a mouse in his pocket. There's nothing else to suggest a "we" in his phraseology.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
My, what a short memory we have.:rolleyes: You really should practice what you preach.

Find me a place where I have ever insulted Christians and called them 'loony' for what they believe.

Originally posted by Age
Hell... forget religion for a moment. How anyone could view the human race and what it has perpetrated and stood for throughout it's history and NOT dispise it is a mystery to me as well.

Good point. We are in agreement.

Originally posted by Age But some of us are mature and caring enough about our fellow people to not spend every moment we're awake spewing insults and making degrading comments simply because of what someone believes.

Ahhh. I see. So when you make the remark -- ""your Christian beliefs touting love for your neighbour, and leading a morally and ethically upright life scares the shit out of me. I'm quaking in my boots.""-- it is not to be considered offensive in the slightest......but my remarks are to be considered extremely offensive.

Riiiiight

Originally posted by Age yes, I'm agnostic. But that doesn't mean I have to shit on other people and tell them they're half-witted loonies.

Sooooo......let me get this straight, Age.

If I should opine that people who believe in spirits and invisible deities are "loonies" or "morons", (IOW, if I express my derision for the irrational beliefs of people I happen to disagree with) then in your estimation I am doing something that is thoroughly reprehensible.

But if you suggest that my opinions are **moronic**, it is perfectly reasonable. Can you not see the irony in that???

I do not mind in the slightest your opining that what I have said is **moronic**. That is what free speech is all about. I would ask, however, that you extend me the courtesy of being alowed to state MY opinion of other people's beliefs just as you are allowed to state yours, without your hypocritical **holier-than-thou** criticisms.

M'kay?

Ahhh. I see. So when you make the remark -- ""your Christian beliefs touting love for your neighbour, and leading a morally and ethically upright life scares the shit out of me. I'm quaking in my boots.""-- it is not to be considered offensive in the slightest......but my remarks are to be considered extremely offensive.
She was being sarcastic.

But if you suggest that my opinions are **moronic**, it is perfectly reasonable.
She never did.

Originally posted by Freethinker
But if you suggest that my opinions are **moronic**, it is perfectly reasonable.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
She never did.

Uhhhh....yes, actually she did.

You have failed to read and comprehend the impetus of the conversational exchange, Borg.

Age stated, in response to my prior post, that -- ""To parade around telling someone that what they believe is moronic and insane, when what YOU believe has almost the same amount of factual support, is TRULY moronic."".

The *"YOU"* in that statement was specifically refering to statements that I had made.

There is no way to read that sentence and come to any other conclusion but that she --Age-- was implying that my own views were *moronic*.

And I have no problem with that.

But for you to state that ""she 'never did' suggest that my (Freethinker) statements were *moronic*"" is incorrect.

Originally posted by Freethinker
Ahhh. I see. So when you make the remark -- ""your Christian beliefs touting love for your neighbour, and leading a morally and ethically upright life scares the shit out of me. I'm quaking in my boots.""-- it is not to be considered offensive in the slightest......but my remarks are to be considered extremely offensive.

Riiiiight

Sooooo......let me get this straight, Age.

If I should opine that people who believe in spirits and invisible deities are "loonies" or "morons", (IOW, if I express my derision for the irrational beliefs of people I happen to disagree with) then in your estimation I am doing something that is thoroughly reprehensible.

But if you suggest that my opinions are **moronic**, it is perfectly reasonable. Can you not see the irony in that???

I do not mind in the slightest your opining that what I have said is **moronic**. That is what free speech is all about. I would ask, however, that you extend me the courtesy of being alowed to state MY opinion of other people's beliefs just as you are allowed to state yours, without your hypocritical **holier-than-thou** criticisms.

M'kay?

Hold your horses.

My comment, if you'll read it again, has a very definite ending to it.

See that /sarcasm part on the bottom there? That's a 'joke' which you might reference to html... where tags begin with a word or some letters, and then end with that same word, or letters (or similar) with a slash in front of it.

For example: html This is where html would go /html. (normally they would have triangular brackets [><] around them, but vBulletin wont let them show up)

So you could guess, that by putting /sarcasm, that which was before it was SARCASTIC.

Now, maybe you understand HTML... so where could the confusion have come in?

... How about what 'sarcasm' actually is? Maybe that's where we're getting hung up. "Sarcasm" is a way of using "irony". So what does "Irony" mean?

Irony:

1. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
2. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
3. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect.

1. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).

Now you will note that if what I said was 'sarcastic', it means that what I said, was in direct opposition to what I actually feel. Most particularily the section stating "...scares the shit out of me. I'm quaking in my boots.". This would suggest that since it is sarcasm, I actually feel the opposite. Which would mean I am NOT scared of it in the least.

In fact, for further clarification, let me state my beliefs WITHOUT sarcasm, so that no one (Mopo included) can get me wrong. I indeed find many of the 'beliefs' Christians live by (to quote myself "touting love for your neighbour, and leading a morally and ethically upright life") to be quite admirable.

Gods. I hope that clears that up, if not, I'm not sure how to put it in any simpler terms.

BTW, thanks Borg.

Age, you could always use a Crayola & print very large one syllable words.

Originally posted by Age
Find me a place where I have ever insulted Christians and called them 'loony' for what they believe.
Page 4, post 8. I’m still offended!!!

You'll note I insulted -you-, not Christians.

You insulted me BECAUSE I am Christian; there’s no other reason.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
You insulted me BECAUSE I am Christian; there’s no other reason. You're a christian in name only. Your purported actions show you to be something other than a christian. While i know that no one is without sin, pride in your sin is the very antithesis of what a true christian is all about. We all make mistakes, but it takes a very basic understanding of right and wrong in order to learn from these mistakes. You, it seems, do not have this simple skill. Either that or you are simply putting on a show to get a reaction from people.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
You insulted me BECAUSE I am Christian; there’s no other reason.

Actually I didn't.

I could explain why I insulted you, but it would only further insult you and add to some meaningless flamewar.

So just accept that the fact your being Christian has nothing to do with the fact that I happen to hold a less then flattering opinion of you.

What would be less then "flattering opinion", infatuation, lust ?????????
:D :D :D

Originally posted by Age
Actually I didn't.

I could explain why I insulted you, but it would only further insult you and add to some meaningless flamewar.

So just accept that the fact your being Christian has nothing to do with the fact that I happen to hold a less then flattering opinion of you.

Since you know nothing about me other than my religion, the only other reason for you to dislike me would be if you were some sort of hate monger (Canada seems to have a lot of those). You didn’t seem like one when you first appeared on this forum.

Havok, tell me… if you are ordered by your employers to do something that doesn’t seem very nice, but are reassured by those same employers that it must be done, wouldn’t you do it? Also, should you be held accountable for it even though those who sign your checks told you to do it?

Originally posted by Mopoloton

Havok, tell me… if you are ordered by your employers to do something that doesn’t seem very nice, but are reassured by those same employers that it must be done, wouldn’t you do it? Also, should you be held accountable for it even though those who sign your checks told you to do it? No. That arguement sounds to me like the same one the Germans from WWII would use.
Accountable? Of course. We should all be held accountable for our actions. Your analogy is nothing more than graduated "peer pressure" anyway. Ultimately we control our own actions and are the one to answer for them.

Originally posted by Mopoloton
Since you know nothing about me other than my religion, the only other reason for you to dislike me would be if you were some sort of hate monger (Canada seems to have a lot of those). You didn’t seem like one when you first appeared on this forum.
Actually, I didn't even know you were a Christian until I read this post. My dislike for you stems from the fact you like to make broad, sweeping, uninformed generalizations.

And as for being something I didn't appear at first, I've never faked who I am. I get along with everyone on these boards with the exception of 2 people... and I -would- get along with them if they'd just be able to accurately and intelligently argue their points.

Have a nice day.

Age, I’ll ask you the same thing I used to ask my high school teachers: is proper argumentation etiquette really that important? I mean, is it really necessary to stay prudent ALL THE TIME?
Originally posted by HaVoK
No. That arguement sounds to me like the same one the Germans from WWII would use.
Accountable? Of course. We should all be held accountable for our actions. Your analogy is nothing more than graduated "peer pressure" anyway. Ultimately we control our own actions and are the one to answer for them.
Even if it means getting fired? Or at the very least, suspended without pay?

Do i fear death? No not at all, what i fear is the dying process, cause it can be pretty horrible.

Why don't you just all put on boxing gloves and go have a spirited debate in the alley... i see a lot less talk of any sort of religion or death and a lot more talk of jobs... i uderstandyou're making a point, but death, to me, is a much more debatable topic than losing your job (kudos to goleafs).

I don't fear my own death it is what is going to happen to other people after they die that scares me. I know this, because my grandfather almost died with out being saved. I am a christian and I am freakishly afraid of what will happen to you people when you die.

Don't worry about us just be happy with your choices in life.

Originally posted by mad dog
Don't worry about us just be happy with your choices in life.
I agree. Trying to "save" other people doesn't work anyway, it usually just makes them resent you.

yeah, i also agree w borg and mad dog. dont' worry about us because we're not "saved." if there really is some god up there, which you seem to think there is, then i would like to believe he's a kind and gentle god who wouldnt' hold it against us because we didn't believe in him. after all, he didn't present any proof. so please don't worry about the fire and brimstone, since none of us really knows what "god" wants, if there is a god or if there's actually any fire and brimstone down there anyway.

YAY THIS IS MY 100TH POST

Each time I've encountered a proselytizer attempting to save me, or someone else, I'm reminded of a single frame cartoon from years ago. This cartoon depicted a burnt-out appearing, bearded youth holding a bible. The caption read: " I used to be all fucked up on drugs, now I'm all fucked up on the Lord ".

You can resent me all you want, but it is not going to stop me from at least trying. Some one has to keep trying and there is not alot of people out there who are willing to carry this heavy burden.

Element what are you trying for, a higher place in heaven? I believe in God I do not believe the same as you, maybe my way is the right way?