I believe in God. I dont try to force my opinion on other people and to be honest with you i do not particularly care what others believe.Whatever works for them is fine with me. I think that a lot of non-religious people seem to concentrate on the negative aspects of religion. It seems to me that they look at every negative thing they see within the context of religion as verification of what they think is correct. Questions like: "How can there be a God who would allow an innocent child to die like that?" or "Why does God allow AIDS to kill people?" I am not here to preach and tell you what i think, because i dont have the answers. But i do have a question.


What kind of world would this be if there were no religion at all? I think that whether you believe in God or not, you have to at least see the value that belief in God brings. Could you imagine what kind of world this would be if no one believed God existed? I can and i dont like what i see.

Havok that is a hard question. I don't know if it would be worse or better. On one hand religion made some folks God fearing. On the other hand wars have been started because of religion. Our laws here in America were put into place by following religion. The women with red hair from Salem Mass. were burned at the stake because of religion. I think good and bad things would happen with or without religion.

Originally posted by mad dog
Havok that is a hard question. I don't know if it would be worse or better. On one hand religion made some folks God fearing. On the other hand wars have been started because of religion. Our laws here in America were put into place by following religion. The women with red hair from Salem Mass. were burned at the stake because of religion. I think good and bad things would happen with or without religion. I agree with what you are saying completely. I just feel a little more strongly about the calming effect of religion in general. I think that the people who perfomed atrocities in religion's name (throughout history) would have been murderer's had religion never existed. They just used the word "religion" to allow them to do their crimes. And none of those killings were done for God, they were done because of fear of the unknown. And im not just talking just about Christianity, i mean ALL religion. Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, etc. Without the moral guidance of religion, this world would be utter chaos. We would be no better off than animals.

Are you implying that atheists are no better than animals?

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Are you implying that atheists are no better than animals? I usually dont imply anything. Anyone who has read my earlier posts on any subject know that i am blunt in all my opinions. So if i wanted to compare atheists to animals i would have done so.

What i intended to convey was that without the moral guidance of religion (note that i didnt say christianity, since i know you hate christians in particular) this world would be filled with no laws, morals, etc. Therefore we would be like the animals we share this world with.

Animals have laws within their groups which usually involves survival of the fittest. I see the human way of life this way as well. Life is a struggle in both instances, and no religion makes that struggle easier.

I also do not need religion to teach me morals. I live by, and also teach my daughter, to treat people with respect and to treat people as you wish to be treated. That has nothing to do with religion, it is just about being a decent human being.

I find that a lot of religions treat other with disrespect if they do not follow their beliefs. This makes their followers believe they are somehow superior, and this doesn't appeal to me.

It is great that you found something that works for you. I have not been trying to speak of non religious people or cast any blame on them. I am talking about the millions and millions of people who HAVE turned to religion. And IMO, without something to believe in, this world would be chaos.

Originally posted by HaVoK
And IMO, without something to believe in, this world would be chaos.



What is wrong with believing in yourself? Why do we have to have something else like a god?

Originally posted by Dreamweaver
What is wrong with believing in yourself? Why do we have to have something else like a god? Im not saying that you do. Like i said, i am not trying to condemn non-religious people. I dont think anyone should judge other people for the beliefs they have. And if belief in yourself works for you, then fine. But let me ask you the same question. What is wrong with me believing in God?

What do you tell your daughter when she asks what happens when she dies? Would you be upset if your daughter came to you one day and told you she believes in God?

If im coming across as a butthole, then i apologize. I am honestly just trying to find out what other people think. I am not trying to say either path someone chooses is better. But i shudder at the thought of a world filled with people who believe there is nothing to live for.

HaVoK, you are not being a butthole............lol..........I enjoy the discussion.

I don't think there is anything wrong in believing in God, if that is what you like. All I say is to remain true to yourself, and not to accept anything in life blindly, and that includes religion.

My daughter has lost both her father and grandfather in the last 6 years, so death is something we have talked about a great deal. I have told her that we pass on to the next stage in life, but that isn't necessarily 'heaven'. If at some later time she chooses to go to church (which I had taken her to for a time), or decides she believes in God, I have no problem with that. Religion is a personal choice. My mother believes in God, but not the church type of religion. She was brought up Catholic and saw many things she didn't like which turned her off the church itself. You don't need to go to church to believe in God though, and that is how she feels.

I respect anyone's choices in life as long as they don't hurt other people.

I have a hard time understanding that you dont believe in God yet you do believe in existence after mortal death. What do you use as your source of faith?

And i agree with you on the fact that people's beliefs should never come at other's expense. True religion should be about love for God and mankind. I think true religion should be founded on tolerance above all. My God is a tolerant God, not a vindictive one.

What i intended to convey was that without the moral guidance of religion (note that i didnt say christianity, since i know you hate christians in particular) this world would be filled with no laws, morals, etc. Therefore we would be like the animals we share this world with.
Bullshit. Religions only convey the ideological and moral views of the time. The laws of Rome were written without religion in view, there were countless high power athiests in Rome. The bible just took moral views of the time and compiled them, added an imaginary friend to give more incentive and for fear(so the priests had more power over people), and said that it was law. Same thing with the Koran and any other religion.

But i shudder at the thought of a world filled with people who believe there is nothing to live for.
We'd live for today, not throwing others in ditches because we have to get to heaven when we die.
And now I'd like to end with a song:

Imagine- John Lennon
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

[/B][/QUOTE] Bullshit. Religions only convey the ideological and moral views of the time. The laws of Rome were written without religion in view, there were countless high power athiests in Rome. The bible just took moral views of the time and compiled them, added an imaginary friend to give more incentive and for fear(so the priests had more power over people), and said that it was law. Same thing with the Koran and any other religion.

Yeah use Rome as an example. Im sure the gladiators felt the love and morality that was Rome as the lions ate their asses. Great example how a society doesnt need the guidance of religion. I mean, they turned out ok didnt they? :rolleyes:

We'd live for today, not throwing others in ditches because we have to get to heaven when we die.

Live for today? What would be the use of living for today? Knowing that nothing you do matters in the least. In the end, all you will be is worm dirt. If i felt that way, it would make me want to throw others in the ditch and just gratify ALL my earthly desires. Since there would be no consequences for any of my actions. And i guarantee you that i would not be the minority either.

And John Lennon was a dreamer. A beautiful dream he had, but a dream nonetheless.

I think religion and belief in God are two separated things.

The ethymology of "religion" is "what creates links" between people. Religion are mostly social creations, based on beliefs that for most of mankind's history were not personal or chosen in any way.

Historically speaking, religions have structured the world. Most of our institutions and values are still based on religious structures, even when these are not religious.

Only in our individualist societies it is now possible to choose one's religion, or even to decide to be atheist. In most of this planet, the question of religious choice is not only impossible - it is not even thinkable.

Yeah use Rome as an example. Im sure the gladiators felt the love and morality that was Rome as the lions ate their asses. Great example how a society doesnt need the guidance of religion. I mean, they turned out ok didnt they?
Actually it was the religion of the masses that destroyed the empire. They got lazy, because their Gods loved them if they gave them alchohol. The Emperor got too egotistical because he thought he was from God, and the less religious Celts and Germanic tribes crushed the Northern front. The people of the Roman Empire were up to their necks in mythology, the laws weren't because the Empire encompassed multiple religions and had to please all of them. The Gladiator fights were sacrifices to their Gods.

Live for today? What would be the use of living for today? Knowing that nothing you do matters in the least. In the end, all you will be is worm dirt. If i felt that way, it would make me want to throw others in the ditch and just gratify ALL my earthly desires. Since there would be no consequences for any of my actions. And i guarantee you that i would not be the minority either.
Then obviously you aren't a very good mammal. Don't give a shit about your kids?

Historically speaking, religions have structured the world. Most of our institutions and values are still based on religious structures, even when these are not religious.
I believe it is more a circle. A long time ago, it wasn't a good idea to kill a fellow human, they helped you survive, it, it was quite stupid to be mean to them also. Then the smart leaders came up with magical properties of fire(that they created(showed as proof that they were worth following, "see, god gave me fire")), the sky, the massive earth. They took the "morals" and added something to make those less smart follow blindly. They created a god, those less smart decided to follow this newly created god so they wouldn't have problems in the "afterlife". Thus the smart ones had reigns on the rest. It evolved, the smarter ones started to believe also, and it became embedded within the society untill somebody else came along and showed more magical things, such as the fire long ago, and became the new leader and set down new rules with a new god. Religion has been keeping the masses under check and subordinate for thousands of years. It pooled off of the morals/ideologies, and in turn used those morals/ideologies to inspire later institutions with them. And the circle continues, those new morals/ideologies will again start up a new religion.

John Lennon was not only a dreamer: he is also dead!! And believe you me, he knows the Truth now! No more dreaming about it, he knows it will come all true...but only when Jesus comes for the second time, and all will see Him when He comes, then the world will change.

Originally posted by Blibblob
[
The Gladiator fights were sacrifices to their Gods.


Then obviously you aren't a very good mammal. Don't give a shit about your kids?


They took the "morals" and added something to make those less smart follow blindly. They created a god, those less smart decided to follow this newly created god so they wouldn't have problems in the "afterlife". Thus the smart ones had reigns on the rest. It evolved, the smarter ones started to believe also, and it became embedded within the society untill somebody else came along and showed more magical things, such as the fire long ago, and became the new leader and set down new rules with a new god. Religion has been keeping the masses under check and subordinate for thousands of years. It pooled off of the morals/ideologies, and in turn used those morals/ideologies to inspire later institutions with them. And the circle continues, those new morals/ideologies will again start up a new religion. To the first. The gladiators were sacrificed for the pleasure of the PEOPLE of Rome at their Emporer's discretion.

To the second. Without knowing that there is something greater than myself, why should i follow man's law? I think that all out survival of the fittest would reign. And if that were the case, there is no second place. If i had kids i would do whatever it took to provide for them.

And to the third. You are starting to sound like Willow. You are saying belief in God is a conspiracy among a small group of intellects to keep the lesser mortals in line. LMAO.

To the first. The gladiators were sacrificed for the pleasure of the PEOPLE of Rome at their Emporer's discretion.
They were just sacrifices to the gods, yes, with added joy for those who watched. Instead of boring old "stab, you dead!".

If i had kids i would do whatever it took to provide for them.
Exactly. Destroying the planet is not a very good way to provide for them.

And to the third. You are starting to sound like Willow. You are saying belief in God is a conspiracy among a small group of intellects to keep the lesser mortals in line. LMAO.
And looking at history, what has religion constantly done? Got the majority to follow the priests, blindly, I might add. I never said it was a conspiracy, however, I don't take social progression of athority as nothing more than a conspiracy. It imbeddes itself into society, and makes it "fact", but no longer a conscious conspiracy.

John Lennon was not only a dreamer: he is also dead!!
A dream never dies. "You cannot put a rope around the neck of an idea; you cannot put an idea up against the barrack-square wall and riddle it with bullets; you cannot confine it in the strongest prison cell your slaves could ever build." - Sean O'Casey. Just because somebody is dead, doesn't mean their dream is too. You should know that, you follow the religion of a long dead group who created it.

Originally posted by Blibblob
To the first. The gladiators were sacrificed for the pleasure of the PEOPLE of Rome at their Emporer's discretion.
They were just sacrifices to the gods, yes, with added joy for those who watched. Instead of boring old "stab, you dead!".

If i had kids i would do whatever it took to provide for them.
Exactly. Destroying the planet is not a very good way to provide for them.

Actually Blib, most scholars believe the first Gladitorial games began around 264 B.C. It was created by Decimus Junius Brutus to honor his dead father. Not as a sacrifice to any "gods".

Where the hell did i ever talk about destroying the planet? I only said i would have no reason to follow man's law if i did not believe in God.

Actually Blib, most scholars believe the first Gladitorial games began around 264 B.C. It was created by Decimus Junius Brutus to honor his dead father. Not as a sacrifice to any "gods".
I think it is older than that, no clue about this Decimus.

Where the hell did i ever talk about destroying the planet? I only said i would have no reason to follow man's law if i did not believe in God.
You said something about all your earthly desires. Everybody fullfilling their desires would result in chaos. Fine, I'll leave it just as destruction of the species. Why would somebody have no reason to follow man's law if they didn't beleive in god, that doesn't make any sense to me. Man creates his laws, but doesn't abide by them because they found out god doesn't exist?

Originally posted by HaVoK
I only said i would have no reason to follow man's law if i did not believe in God.

I do not believe in God but I do believe in the necessity of laws and usually follow them.
Do you mean the only reason why you follow the law is because you fear god ?

Originally posted by astrapol2
I do not believe in God but I do believe in the necessity of laws and usually follow them.
Do you mean the only reason why you follow the law is because you fear god ? I do not fear God. Since i know there is a higher power than me, i do not feel the need to satisfy every animalistic desire i have. You people act like you dont understand what im talking about here. As i said in a past post, without the morals that religion brought to civilization it would literally be survival of the fittest. If you dont understand what that is then you are leading too sheltered an existence for me to explain to you what i mean. If in fact this world were survival of the fittest, there is no second place.

I wonder if there would be no morals if religion had never existed, or if we would have developed our own set of morals in the absence of that.

Humans although chaotic by nature, usually seek ways to keep society functioning... moral 'rules' and ethical standards are one of the ways we do that.

Human are basically socilal beings. Humans cannot live outside of society - they may survive a certain time but will then eventually lose their humanity.
I do not think that religion is the only thing that keeps our "animal instict" from killing each other. In fact, this "animal instinct" still has to be defined. Many animals have a social behaviour which is not agressive at all. And I do not beleive that people's basic "instinct" is to go against their next of kin.

Originally posted by astrapol2
Human are basically socilal beings. Humans cannot live outside of society - they may survive a certain time but will then eventually lose their humanity.
I do not think that religion is the only thing that keeps our "animal instict" from killing each other. In fact, this "animal instinct" still has to be defined. Many animals have a social behaviour which is not agressive at all. And I do not beleive that people's basic "instinct" is to go against their next of kin. Without morals and laws there would be no society. That is what i have been saying from the start. We would not "lose our humanity", we would have never have had any from the start. And merely killing each other is not the only thing im talking about. There are plenty things humans can do to each other worse than killing.

I understand that what i am saying does not apply to every human being. But the strongest among us would take whatever they wanted, damn the consequences. Because there would be none.

I know that you and i see things differently, and that is cool. This is just my opinion and i know im not the authority on the subject. I admit i could be wrong. Its happened plenty of times before. :)

I think we do not disagree so deeply. I agree with you on the fact that law and morals are necessary. I agree that the "law of the jungle" is something that would lead mankind to its end.
I agree that religions are usually the basis of morals.

I just think that the law, in modern societies, can be separated from religion. And I also think that, even if religions had not been created, a system of law and morals would exist anyway. In a way, Confucianism in ancient China was that : a philosophical and moral system used as a common reference to keep the society working, but not a religion with gods and afterdeath life.

if there were no religions, there would be something similiar. I don't think that mankind can live without believing or Not believing in something they cannot completely understand and it doesn't have to be spiritual you know. Humans, as opposed to animals, have an imagination that sometimes even goes beyond the limits of sanity. Just think about all people believe without having proof... No, we WOULD find something else. I studied anthropology for some time and a recurring element in all cultures is the belief in something. And as for morals, i don't think it has to do with faith, but yeah in most cultures morals are dictated by religion.
oh and by the way, i don't think that believing in a god doesn't necessary means being scare of god.

In fact there are many examples of societies that found or were imposed replacements for religion.
Communism in USSR : they had rituals (military parades), belief in a (future) better world, saints ("communism heroes" such as Stakhanov), even a trinity (Marx-Engels -Lenine) and unquestioned "spiritual" leaders (Staline or Mao). They even had their Satan (Trotsky the fallen angel). And of course hell for many people in Siberia.

Nazism also worked like a religion. Many totalitarian states do. Nationalism can replace religion.
In fact, for social cohesion, it is only necessary that most people believe in the same, supra-human thing (the nation, communism…) and accept a set of rule they do not question.

Today, the "Free Market" and the so called "laws" of economy play this role in the dominant belief : Capitalism.

religion isn't the only thing that creates morals; it is really your consience that does. sure, religious extremists believe in god, but are they exactly the kind of people you'd like to invite to dinner?
if there's no religion in the world, people are going to kill, steal, fight and act altogether unpleasant. if there's religion in the world, people will still act the same.

Originally posted by sputnik
religion isn't the only thing that creates morals; it is really your consience that does. sure, religious extremists believe in god, but are they exactly the kind of people you'd like to invite to dinner?
if there's no religion in the world, people are going to kill, steal, fight and act altogether unpleasant. if there's religion in the world, people will still act the same. Granted, people are going to kill, steal, fight, etc., no mattter. What i was trying to get across is that IMO the scale of the population who do these deeds would be drastically bigger without religion. But again, as i said, it is my opinion.

"Granted, people are going to kill, steal, fight, etc., no mattter. What i was trying to get across is that IMO the scale of the population who do these deeds would be drastically bigger without religion. But again, as i said, it is my opinion."

well, what on earth can i even say? it's impossible to know what the world would be like without religion. we'd have to go back to the very beginning of mankind and start everything over. whatever is posted here is all opinion. there's no way to know anything except that everything would be very, very different.

I can imagine it and i don't think it would be so horrible. So people would have to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. They would have to have faith in themselves and the people around them rather then what they consider a higher power. They may realize fate lies in their own hands and not in someone elses.

Religion mak e to many wars

Religion has never made a war, people make wars, and use there religion as a cover.

Originally posted by mad dog
Religion has never made a war, people make wars, and use there religion as a cover.
Quite true. The Inquisition wasn't about religion at all, it was about politics. Same goes with most other religious wars that I can think of.