Funs Things to do to When Jehovah Witnesses Come to Visit...

Answer the door naked and carrying weaponry. (immediate results)

Pretend to be the slowest talking person in the world and see how long their spirit of Christian charity lasts.

Answer every one of their questions with "What do you mean by that?" This might take a while, but you and your loved ones can have fun placing bets on how long it takes for them to get flustered and leave.

Ask them to explain the story of Elisha and the Forty two children. You may have to resort to another method to actually get rid of them, but this will definitely make them sweat. (2 Kings in Chapter 2, umm... somewhere near the end).

Excuse yourself from the front door and DO NOT come back.

Make a series of increasingly reprehensible fake phone calls. (bookie, order for pornography, drug deal, obscene call, and if they are STILL there, a tearful confession to the police for the murder of the last Witnesses who visited you.)

Pick an often repeated word in their vocabulary (God, Jesus, heaven, it, the etc.) and giggle whenever they utter it. If they ask you what's going on, say "nothing, why?" in very even tones, and giggle again.

Same as above, except say "beep" instead of giggling.

Guys can show an intense interest in their spiel. Part way through, begin putting on make-up, hosiery, a dress, the whole works. (make encouraging noises [uh huh, I see...] throughout and if they ask you what you're doing, pull a #7) If they're still there when you are done, Ask them if they would please kindly leave as you have a hot date in ten minutes.

Look smug and tell them that your God can beat up their God.

I didn't thing Jehovahs were Christian?

Jesus said,"happy are the pure in heart'.This means that i am brutally honest.




I'm Danny Haszard from Bangor Maine USA.Former member of the abusive,Kingdom hall of Jehovah's witnesses Rockland Massachusetts USA.

Exited out 1-5-92 was in for 33 years.I was 3rd generation,so they still are holding most of my family hostage.The Watchtower swindled most of my family assets,left me destitute at first but i have recovered much.

The worst thing that high demand destructive Bible based cults do to their victims is they 'soul rape' you so you become angry at God.

It's been called."surrogate displacement" rage.You become 'mad at the world' and it takes a long time to recover.

God is good and gracious and i am stronger for it.I have a counter-cult home page please visit and browse.I am determined to provide education and support to warn others of these,'wolves in sheep's clothing'.
peace, http://www.DannyHaszard.com


The anguish and the agony of having to renounce the lifelong convictions of one's heart.The surreal horror to know that it was all a lie!

{Note:}

What forensic psychologist say about cult leaders like Jim Jones and David Koresh.They are control freaks who will never abdicate control.They will choose death by suicide or a fiery fight to the very end.We can indeed see a comparison with the arrogant watchtower cult.

Awe..I hate it when people bash a whole religion..

I am not a jw but it is a shame to hear people talk like this.

I wish I could have pulled up your site but for some reason I am not able to?!? I have road runner, I know nothing about computers really and it says I need to install java. I tried but it won't work...so I guess I will never "be educated".

Sorry..

Haszard, you are one childish jerkoff. My God you used to be one of them. This is bias and totally bullsh*t. I wish you could be banned for those comments. Its bad when your fellow allforum members dont even respect you.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Haszard, you are one childish jerkoff. My God you used to be one of them. This is bias and totally bullsh*t. I wish you could be banned for those comments. Its bad when your fellow allforum members dont even respect you.
Be careful what you say...I seem to recall someone posting a make money fast scam...he wasn't even banned for it, and makes posts today...he could've been banned, and certainly was not respected among Allforums members at first...he used to be "one of them" too (spammers, that is)...

:D That was during my dummer years. You guys still remember that? I had no respect back then but ive changed, at least when it comes to spam. You have to admit though, he's flaming this religion, and what makes it so repulsive is the fact that he used to be one of them. He's a traitor. I hate traitors. But point taken BorgHunter. I'll try to do better:D

The "traitor" probably knows more about what he's talking about than most people. Jehovah's Witnesses are considered by many to be a cult or at least have cult-like tendencies. I can't speak with any authority on the matter, but I don't think he should be flamed for posting about his experiences.

Lionel, if you can't speak with authority on the subject, then why speak. Your whole post was based on the assumption of "many people", the same people who think Pres. Bush is being controlled by aliens(hmmm...). Seeing that I am the only one in this allForums environment that has the ability, or shall I call it nerve, to stand up for this religion, I will. I know what he is saying is lies and I know that in reality he cant believe some of the sh*t he wrote himself. It see this alot. Its like the "since I can't be a member of your clubhouse nobody else can" syndrome. And that is childish and ignorant. And I wont stand for it.

So in other words, you're a Jehovah's Witness?

Yes I proudly hold my head high as a Jehovah's Witness. and yes we are Christians. ;)

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Yes I proudly hold my head high as a Jehovah's Witness. and yes we are Christians. ;)
I plan on knocking on your door during dinner asking you if you'd like a Satanist's Bible.

My aunt is a Jehovah's Witness. That was about the time we stopped hearing from her. Not that she's disappeared or anything sinister, she just doesn't seem to have time to talk to us anymore.

come on down Borg. What do ya think i'm gonna do, slam the door in your face?

Just out of curiosity James, why do Jehovahs Witnesses' go door to door? And please don't tell me "to convert people", I know that, but what is it in your doctrine that makes you think you should do that? I know this isn't the first time you've heard the comments, so what gives? Talk man...Talk...:)

o.k. we are following what Jesus Christ said. I believe it was: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations,..." I cant think of the exact scripture. Unlike what most people believe we don't walk around with Bibles in our hand always;) But thats why. Of course, this doesn't make sense if you don't believe in the Bible. I would be lying if I said that we are not out to "convert people" because otherwise we wouldn't be following Jesus' counsel, but we will respect your wishes and if you don't want us to come back all you have to do is ask us not to. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, just please don't group the entire witness organization into one lump if one stays at your door to long or comes back when told not to.

I'm not a lumper :D

Truth is James, I believe that when it comes to religion, a person has a right to believe anything they want to, as long as they don't expect me to believe the same. You can try to convince me if you want, but I have been known to get irritated with people who make what I consider to be stupid statements, to defend, or promote their religion.

In my neighborhood I get visited by two somewhat elderly black ladies from the local Kingdom Hall....maybe once every six months or so. They are sweet old ladies who are very polite and not pushy at all, and I actually look forward to their visits. Next time they visit I'm going to ask them if they want to sit and have some lemonade or something. It actually makes me feel bad to have to say "I'm sorry, but I'm an atheist". They look at me with that sweet grand-motherly look that says "you poor child". Then they smile, and I smile, we chat for a little while, and then they continue on their way. It's always a very pleasant experience for me, and I hope, not an unpleasant one for them.

Vilepagan, if others on this site and in the world believed and acted the way you do about what they believe in, the world would be a lot more intelligent place :)

Thank you James, that's very kind of you to say...have some flowers...:flowers:

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Yes I proudly hold my head high as a Jehovah's Witness. and yes we are Christians. ;)


How can a Jehovah's Witness claim to be a Christian when they don't even use a traditional Bible? The founder rewrote the Bible to fit his needs. Not re-translate, re-WROTE.

Originally posted by Streyeder
How can a Jehovah's Witness claim to be a Christian when they don't even use a traditional Bible? The founder rewrote the Bible to fit his needs. Not re-translate, re-WROTE.

Mormons are Christians too even though they have their own book. I think they call themselves Christians because they believe in Jesus.

VilePagan...utter brilliance. And Streyeder, that was utter stupidity. Nobody rewrote the bible to fit their needs. We translated the Bible into its purest form, and took out all of the thous, and thys. Or do you believe THe ten commandments really said"Thou shalt not kill..." You gotta come stronger than that if you want a real debate a JW being christian.

And if you read page for page a KJ bible wrote 50 yrs ago with one wrote today, you would really know that what you said was stupid. Thats what i call rewriting!

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Nobody rewrote the bible to fit their needs.
That is complete B.S. The Catholic Church did a lot of revising all the way into the 1500's, and it all was to fit the political needs at the time. The King James is probably the most contaminated, because King James and his lackeys did a lot of editing.

when i said nobody i was referring to JW. U helped to prove my point Thanks!!

Originally posted by Jwjames111
when i said nobody i was referring to JW. U helped to prove my point Thanks!!
Well you should be more precise. I thought you meant nobody, ever.

im sorry :(

JWs believe so many different things about the Bible and Jesus. They are called JWs for a reason. True Christians do NOT believe that is order to be saved we have to follow this:

"Salvation requires that one must accept doctrines as interpreted by the Governing Body from the Bible, be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness and follow the program of works as laid out by the Governing Body."

Who is the governing body???? The only governing body of true Christians in the Holy Trinity....which JWs don't even believe in.

Originally posted by Core
Who is the governing body???? The only governing body of true Christians in the Holy Trinity....which JWs don't even believe in.
I thought the Trinity was just a Catholic thing. Or does it extend to other denominations?

See that's a sticky question because these days there are different denominations popping up calling themselves Christians. So do all denominations believe in the Holy Trinity? I don't know. I know that I was raised Baptist until 6 and taught to believe in the Trinity. I then went to a Methodist church cuz we moved and we studied the Trinity, and now I go to a Bible Fellowship Church and we worship the Trinity. Funny thing though. My father has recently converted to Catholism and we went to a Christmas service there and they did not mention the Trinity except in the Lord's Prayer.

Core, you really made yourself look real dumb. Please move on to another post and leave this one alone before I have to start refuting everything you just posted and make you look real stupid. Im trying to help you out, but if you really want to debate this with me, bring it...

Originally posted by Jwjames111
Core, you really made yourself look real dumb. Please move on to another post and leave this one alone before I have to start refuting everything you just posted and make you look real stupid. Im trying to help you out, but if you really want to debate this with me, bring it...

Why in the WORLD would I need you to help me out?

Ah, a new age baptist and a methodist...
(Yes that is a direct denominational insult)

I just keep reading your post over and over to make me laugh. I think I'm going to save it as a screen saver. LMAO...come on...come one...rrrrrrrufff! HAHAHAHAHA! :hitout:

Originally posted by Blibblob
Ah, a new age baptist and a methodist...
(Yes that is a direct denominational insult)

Ahhhhhh, and it wouldn't be an intelligent thread without commentary from good ol' Dildo....I mean Blibblob.

Well, it was getting tense(with stupidity), and I thought it needed some stupid jokes.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Well, it was getting tense(with stupidity), and I thought it needed some stupid jokes.

Well again, you must understand that we are all not as brilliant as the likes of you and we do what we can.

I'm not the one that thought Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons were the same. I also don't make arrogant comments about how my church is the only real one, and everybody else is going to hell.

But then again, how could this not turn into a thread on mythology, it was started by willow...

Blib does have one point: this is the Humor section and we're throwing insults at each other.

Originally posted by Blibblob
I'm not the one that thought Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons were the same. I also don't make arrogant comments about how my church is the only real one, and everybody else is going to hell.

But then again, how could this not turn into a thread on mythology, it was started by willow...

First off......I educated myself of the differences between the two thanks to Borg's supply of links, and I don't remember saying ANYTHING about condemning someone to hell or MY church being the only "real" one. I simply stated that JWs are JWs.....and I do not consider them Christians.

AND.....as I studied the differences of the two, I also learned more and more about the differences between what I consider Christianity, and what I don't.

Originally posted by BorgHunter
Blib does have one point: this is the Humor section and we're throwing insults at each other.

I completely understand and agree, however on the very first page of this thread the joke turned into this..... stimluated by James' freak session on Hazsard.......I merely got tired of him professing he was Christian. I would not be opposed to you moving this conversation to religion.

Originally posted by Jwjames111
:D That was during my dummer years. You guys still remember that? I had no respect back then but ive changed, at least when it comes to spam. You have to admit though, he's flaming this religion, and what makes it so repulsive is the fact that he used to be one of them. He's a traitor. I hate traitors. But point taken BorgHunter. I'll try to do better:D

He's a traitor? That is interesting. He's a NUTCASE....but a traitor?

As I said stupid debates = stupid jokes.

No offense but if you think they are stupid then why are you still reading this thread and trying to talk through it?

you know, my first question is who is the nutcase? me or haszard. and im sorry for the insults, its just i cant get why you cant see any of my points. But believe what you want to believe. I see u didnt email me to ask one on one, so obviously you dont wnt to know. Im willing to drop it if you all are

Originally posted by Jwjames111
you know, my first question is who is the nutcase? me or haszard. and im sorry for the insults, its just i cant get why you cant see any of my points. But believe what you want to believe. I see u didnt email me to ask one on one, so obviously you dont wnt to know. Im willing to drop it if you all are

I apologize too...and the nutcase is Haszard. I do NOT think you are a nutcase at all. And James, you came with heat to me after my comment, somehow it didn't encourage me to write one-on-one. I can't see any of your points because I really didn't hear a lot of them. We can drop this. If you would like to talk in religion that's cool. We can have don't get mad and insulting rules? And I do believe in what I want to.....do you?

you know whats funny is that haszard has never spoken in his defense...

if i didnt believe i wouldnt be here. I never would have told you all that i was a JW. The force is strong with this one ;)

I so admire that you question though. When I first came on here, all I read about you was that you were asking us for advice or thoughts on your religion. That's very brave. Learn as much as you can. Then make your choice. I've done it several times, and came to the same conclusion.

Call me a little naive, James, don't isn't this forum the place to express opinions? besides other people having a different opinion keeps the spice in life. ;)

You are right Chotch. One thing though, didnt ur English teacher in that one horse town teach you about double negatives. GEEZ!!!! ;) :D

Hey give a girl a break! I had people screaming in my ear to get off the cpu. and I did catch my grammer mistake, though considering where I live (Hicksville) The double negative actually works. ;)

A s both a grammar and tech Nazi, I have to interject. "CPU" is not short for "computer", it is an acronym for "Central Processing Unit", which is something inside the computer.

picky, picky

lol

I think when any religious missionary comes to my house (I've never experienced this yet) I'll just tell them honestly and upfront that I'm not an athiest but I'm not interested in becoming religious and you will waste your time. Have a nice day. They will not be invited in. The whole thing will be brief, like in 1 minute. I do this to salepeople all the time, or charity people, donation people, phone plan...etc. Except I change the phrase thusly and say: I'm a college student and I live on government aid and scholarship, so there is no extra money here to spare, waste not your time just go next door because that boy is a waiter at Steak & Ale and got lots of money from tips.

I had to chuckle when I read this post because it can be so challenging to deal with the cults. Great idea's for sure. The problem with cults is that they can seem like the real thing to the undiscerning and present a deadly lie to those who believe it. It is only through the discernment of the Holy Spirit, and the Word, that we can truly see what's right, from what's error.

I truly love all people as Gods wonderful creation. We were lost and thought a bunch of silly things as well, until God had mercy on us, but when someone is preaching a different gospel to people who don't know the difference, I feel a sense of responsibility to tell the truth according to God's Word. Prayer, love, and living what you preach is a powerful tool, but God's Word should decide all problems with false religions.

SO, I'm sure one of you will correct (or berate?) me if I'm wrong, but haven't CT Russell AND the Watchtower organization prophesied the end of the age, like, four or five times but have yet to actually SEE the end of the age?

Isn't that in conflict with the Biblical mandates (notably Deuteronomy 18, I think) for Prophets of God?

dave

if jw's are christians than why do they proclaim that only 144,000 chosen jw's go to heaven. does that mean the rest are just jonadabs with nothing else to do. in revalation it states only 144,000 chosen jews will go to heaven. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. somewhere, the watchtower decided to rewrite the bible as they seem fit to. besides, charles taz russel was never a ordained minister and could never read greek or hebrew.

One of my wifes aunts is a JW. Their son dropped out and they have disowned him - the whole JW church has been told to shun him.

Lets face it - the JW's are a complete bunch of loonies. They are not alone - Southern Baptists, Mormons, the list goes on and on of cults just waiting for suckers to join up.

It must be human nature to affiliate. I guess that is easier than thinking for yourself.

it's comfortable to belong to a group. cutls provide a veyr strong sense of belonging. frankly, I think anybody has a right to believe what they want, but how can one possibly abandon their own child with a clear concsience? it makes very little sense to me.

Originally posted by PatchesPal
...I truly love all people as Gods wonderful creation. We were lost and thought a bunch of silly things as well, until God had mercy on us, but when someone is preaching a different gospel to people who don't know the difference, I feel a sense of responsibility to tell the truth according to God's Word. Prayer, love, and living what you preach is a powerful tool, but God's Word should decide all problems with false religions.
Patches, this is so right on. The J.W.s rarely come by my house any more, although I invite them when ever I see them, and when they do stop by they won’t sit down, they just hand me a track and get out as fast as possible. I’ve got to add they are very polite, I just pray that I could introduce them to the real Jesus, not an angel but the creator of everything; God in the flesh.

You are going to introduce them to God in the flesh? Is he renting your spare room? What does he look like? Does he have a beard - what is his ethnic background?

I never did understand that God in the flesh line.

sorry i havent been on in a while but i see yall have taken advantage of my absense...lol. I just have to say that this is the definition of a cult. People throw that word around very loosely:
1) A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
or:
2)Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

How are JW's any of these things? Were not extreme. You never hear of JW's doin anything crazy or stupid. We live like anybody else. And whose our authoritarian, charismatic leader? And yeah the Watchtower Society was wrong in the past about some dates, and they OPENLY admitted they were wrong to be presumptous about the matter. People make it out to be like they tried to hide it. All of our meetings, except our private meeting among the Elders(Which is understandable), are open to the public. What cults meeting are open to the public? If people stoppped listenin to ppl who dont know JW's and their beliefs and get the gumption to ask a JW about their beliefs maybe you wouldn't post some of the comments some of u just didl.:rolleyes:

To me the Roman Catholic church is a cult too.

If the JW's work well for you then thats great.

Just don't ever cross them :) - just kidding

ha ha :D

Originally posted by Jwjames111

How are JW's any of these things? Were not extreme. You never hear of JW's doin anything crazy or stupid. We live like anybody else

personally, I think disowning your children because they choose not to participate in your religion is pretty extreme, and quite cultish. I find any religous sect that encourages that to be cultish.

and you are wrong Whammy. If they choose not too, thats O.K. We still associate with them. Its ONLY after they accept the truth as right and then disown the truth, thereby rejecting God, will the parents tend to keep there distance from them. The bible says this at 2 john 9,10, among other places. Because its your child and not your friend should it be different. The admonishon is the same regardless.

it is so much fun to get hate mail from one side of the family once you are ex-communicated from the catholic church. it shows how low ones relatives really are.

Its ONLY after they accept the truth as right and then disown the truth, thereby rejecting God, will the parents tend to keep there distance from them

Nice! - now that is screwed up.

Classic way to ensure nobody ever leaves the cult.

What if they are brainwashed from birth and they reject it once they realise it's a bunch of rubbish?

nobody's brainwashed DrewM. Let me take it u must b an Atheist. If you are then of course any religious views are going to sound like hogwash to you. Showing u anything from the Bible would do u no good, b/c u dont believe in it. All of our teachings are Bible-based, so if you dont accept the Bible there's not much I can explain to u.

JwJames: if I'm not mistaken. the bible teaches kindness, correct? so you should be nice to everyone, not just those that don't agree with you. do you honestly beelive there isn't any degree of indoctrination in telling young children, who aren;t yet capable of procesing the ideas, about things like religion? I don't see anything particularly terrible about bringing up a child in a religious manner, but as son as they begin to grow up they question. one shouldn't be rejected from one's family because they choose not to participate in the family religion. I'm not sure how you can justify being so cruel using a ibble that so strongly emphasizes kindness.

cruel? My God nobody's being cruel. Don't pick and choose what part of the Bible to agree with. Its more than a little frustrating that people keep emphasizing the scriptures that correspond to their arguments but forget the others. Nobody is punished for questioning. And did you not see the scripture, one of many that I can bring up. You didnt allude to that? Is that because you didnt see it, or it just doesnt fit ur argument?

personally, I don't beleive every word in the bible. as an athiest, I don' think any of it is true, but there are definitely some important lessons in there. what I got from studying the old testament for basically my whole life was that treatin people kindly is most important. excomunicating someone from the family is most definitely cruel. although I'm not familiar with the new testament, I can't think of anywher in the bible where it says that it's ok to be cruel to someone, under any cirumstances. and outside of he bible, simple eithics would dictate that doing that is wrong.

Well if put like that looking at it from ana theist view then it probably would look cruel. It takes belief in the Bible to see the logic Whammy

Originally posted by Jwjames111
nobody's brainwashed DrewM. Let me take it u must b an Atheist. If you are then of course any religious views are going to sound like hogwash to you. Showing u anything from the Bible would do u no good, b/c u dont believe in it. All of our teachings are Bible-based, so if you dont accept the Bible there's not much I can explain to u.

I'm not an athiest - but you are right I cannot take the Bible as proof of anything. The Bible is a book written by people. It may be a good and useful book, but its not proof of anything at all.

Religious views do not necessarily sound like hogwash to me. Disowning your kids because they choose to think for themself and make their own decisions is certainly hogwash of the worst kind.

People get sucked into things so deep that there is no way out for them anymore. It doesn't make them bad people - just miss-guided.

You and I both know that you have moments of doubt. The unfortanate thing is your doubt is immediately followed by a feeling of guilt. That's religions golden trick - Affiliation and value mixed with guilt. The JW's may have it fine tuned but they have no monopoly on it.

Feel free to pray for my lost soul :)

Jw, I nkow plenty of extremly religious people who are extremely devoted to thier fsith, and place extreme value in the bible. they would never desert thier children because they choose a diferent way of life. if you choose to involved yourself with people who would convince you to do this (you being a general you, not actually refering to someone sepcifiaclly) then that is your choice. at the same time, it's sad that people are incapable of seeing life outside relgion.

Whammy, if u dont believe in the Bible, you cant intelligently debate this issue with me b/c you can never see my side. You are looking at it from a physical/emotional human standpoint instead of a spiritual standpoint. Therefore the principle behind it goes unnoticed, and it looks barbaric. I understand your argument, but sadly, you cant understand mine.

I cannot find any justification for disowning your kids.

Sorry - but any religion that actively engages in such activities is a cult - not to be taken seriously - in fact to be pitied.

The simple fact that a member of such a group could justify such an act is pure testiment to the level of brainwashing involved.

DrewM, what religion do u believe isnt a cult. Stating opinions is one thing, but geez. Its funny though, b/c i have never taken cheap shots at one of yalls religions or non-religions, yet you continue to disrespect mine. IIf you dont see my view then fine. But i am no one to be pitied, and im no where close to brainwashed. I resent your statement and I really wish that you would leave this post b/c u really lost a lot of respect in my eyes. To brainwaash takes a person with a very weak mind, so do you take me down to the lvl of such a person? I've never questioned ur intelligence, so why question mine. I told you if u dont believe the entire Bible then it wouldn't make sense to you, yet you continue to post the same argument. Your point is tired, give it a rest.

can you explain to us what justfies diwowning a child? I understand that I won't agree with it, becuase I don't follow everything thw bible says, but I would like to see where you egt the idea that its right from.

Whammy, if u dont believe in the Bible, you cant intelligently debate this issue with me b/c you can never see my side. You are looking at it from a physical/emotional human standpoint instead of a spiritual standpoint. Therefore the principle behind it goes unnoticed, and it looks barbaric. I understand your argument, but sadly, you cant understand mine.
So, if you don't believe something, then you can't understand it? Now that logic is what doesn't make any sense. You don't have believe religion to understand psychology. To say that you have to believe in something to understand it completely undermines any attempts at gaining intelligence on opposing sides. You're the one that doesn't understand.

To brainwaash takes a person with a very weak mind
Or an underdeveloped one.

To brainwaash takes a person with a very weak mind

Actually it doesn't take a weak mind at all. Most fervent religious groups exploit the basic human need to belong. Being part of a group is safe, it validates and it's comfortable. I am not suggesting that your elders etc are evil people out to brainwash innocents. I am sure they are equally as brainwashed.

Jwjames - I haven't attacked you at all in any of my posts. I've attacked one thing - the concept that that disowning a child because they wish to think for themselves has validity. I haven't heard you give any argument why that can be justified, apart from the stuff about if you don't believe in the Bible then you'd never understand it, which is a cop out, sorry.

You should show this thread to your elders and ask them to come on here and post their opinions and explanations. My guess is they would tell you to never post here again - no doubt they do not want any risk that you might start questioning.

No matter what you believe - there is always room for question. It's healthy and it's wise. If any church tells you not think then run.

Just to re-iterate. I am not attacking you personally Jwjames. I don't know you so how could I do that?

Blib, not in all cases but in this one if Whammy doesnt believe everything the Bible says, then on this issue he cant see my point, because it takes belief in the bible and everything it contains to see how disfellowshipping(which is what JWs call it, not expelling) makes any logical sense. And this has nothing to do with psychology, so wats ur point? And u clearly misstated ur last point:
"To say that you have to believe in something to understand it completely undermines any attempts at gaining intelligence on opposing sides. You're the one that doesn't understand."

In any intelligent debate. The debatees must agree on something, otherwise its just an argument. If you think Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter ever, and I believe Hank Aaron is, then at the core we both have to believe that each play(ed) baseball at one time or the other. Otherwise you cant ever see my point. If Whammy doesnt believe in the Bible or parts of it, he cant ever see my point. He cant see it b/c he doesnt believe where we get our information is right. So whatever I say it comes out as not reasonable to him.

Whammy, a person isnt disfellowshipped for just anything. The person must have showed that he/she wasnt repentant in whatever they did and blatantly disregareded the teachings of the Bible. Then that person is disfellowshipped. A person who never wants to be a witness isnt "expelled" as u called it; otherwise JWs would be totally antisocial to family members who are not witnesses. Disfellowshipping is the same as expulsion from school for a child that has brought a gun to school. Will the principal not expel the student b/c he or she is their child? If the child is not disciplined who is to say that others could be hurt, even killed if the gun was used in anger? In the same way a person who blatantly shows disregard for the teachings and principles of the Bible and all other applicable teachings must be removed from the congregation to protect it. Whether that be a friend, relative, even a child(which you all continue to pound in, as if the only ppl disfellowshipped are children) the person must be removed, lest the entire congregation falls away.Those who have been disfellowshipped may be received back into the congregation if they manifest sincere repentance. Its not like their being expelled for life. Paul himself gave an applicable scriptural example:

1 Corinthians 5:11-13:
11_But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12_For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13_while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

This scripture shows that Christians(specifically JWs) do not hold themselves aloof from people. We have normal contacts with neighbors, workmates, schoolmates, and others, and witness to them even if some are ‘fornicators, greedy persons, extortioners, or idolaters.’ Paul wrote that we cannot avoid them completely, ‘otherwise we would have to get out of the world.’ He directed that it was to be different, though, with “a brother” who lived like that: Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that [has returned to such ways], not even eating with such a man.” A brother of course being one of like faith. The Bible holds each person responsible for their own actions and to single out parents of disobedient children and exclude them from what the Bible clearly states is wrong. Its that simple

And do you not think that I have questioned my faith? for A while i wasnt sure if i believed it. I havent had this conviction throughtout my life. So I can feel you on both sides. But I do believe the Bible in its completeness is correct and when something is shown to me from the Bible, then its not valid to keep questioning. At some point you have to believe what's clearly stated is true, am i right?

Thanks for the detailed info on disfellowshipped - I think this is interesting.

Basically the logic is one bad apple can ruin the crop.

If you have one person questioning then you need to kick them out before the disease can spread.

You should think hard about this - because the reason for this is not what you believe it to be. The christian approach would be to remain open and acceptant and trust that the rest of the congregation would not be on such weak ground that they may be 'ruined'

The reason is clear to me - this does 2 things

- Drives home fear of explusion from the group - keeps people in line.
- Removes any form of questioning from the group. Afterall somebody would only exhibit the necessary requirements for disfellowshipped if they started to question.

Very very effective mind control tool. Man these guys have you sucked in hook line and sinker. You'd need years of therapy to get them off your back.

There are an awful lot of books out there about recovery from JW mind control - this should at least set off some alarm bells. Check them out - give them a read - it may not change anything, but you always owe it to yourself to maintain personal choice.

DrewM, for one what you said is ignorant,remain open and acceptant and i guess as you see it let them stay and possibly ruin everyone. Otherwise why was the inquisition or the salem witch hunts performed. I'm sure the people thought they should just stay in, as if sin is something to play with. But you taught me a vauable lesson. No matter how clear a reason can be, a person can twist it to fit his own ideals. you said that disfellowshipping does this:
- Drives home fear of explusion from the group - keeps people in line.
- Removes any form of questioning from the group. Afterall somebody would only exhibit the necessary requirements for disfellowshipped if they started to question.

The fear should first of all be of displeasing God.
Somebody would exhibit the necessary requirements for disfellowshipping if they turned awway from what they have been taught, not if they just questioned. That would be cultish. get your facts straight. I gave you the reasons for disfellowshipping earlier, so i really dont feel like repeating myself. If you read that you would see i clearly did not say a person is disfellowshipped for questioning. But once again, anybody can twist a statement into whatever they want it to be...

Either way - what I said is truth.

Originally posted by Blibblob

To brainwaash takes a person with a very weak mind
Or an underdeveloped one. [/B]

looking at your profile, you call my mind underdeveloped?:rolleyes:

Wow thats easy to say. It really sounds more of a "cop out" than anything. But truth is relative, whats my truth may not be true to you. So why do we continue to debate/argue about this?

Jwjames. I have not attackled you personally although you are taking this very personally.

From the outside it's very easy to see how the JW's control people's thinking. The examples you gave are classic psychology designed to limit deviation from group thinking.

I know you cannot accept that and it annoys you when you read what I posted. That is understandable.

drewM i appreciate your points and this has been an enlightening debate on both sides i guess. I salute you ;)

Blib, not in all cases but in this one if Whammy doesnt believe everything the Bible says, then on this issue he cant see my point, because it takes belief in the bible and everything it contains to see how disfellowshipping(which is what JWs call it, not expelling) makes any logical sense.
The only way to understand it is to have a closed mind?

And this has nothing to do with psychology, so wats ur point?
It has everything to do with psychology. You say it has to be understood in a spiritual sense. Well, I undestand the psychology behind a human wanting spirituality, and as such understand the motivations. Same thing. You just want an aloof term.

In any intelligent debate. The debatees must agree on something, otherwise its just an argument.
An argument can't be intelligent? I don't have to believe a word that comes out of your mouth to destroy the logic and truth behind it. You don't have to believe the truths to destroy the logic, or have a better supported truth. Well, unless you want to hide in the corner talking to your immaginary friend, and all of your reasons are from a schiztophrenic mind. And that is what I see when people go, "Because God said so!"

looking at your profile, you call my mind underdeveloped?
How long have you been a JW?

But truth is relative
It is not. Theories are.

You know Blib, a person who is an theist and a person who very strongly believes in God and the bible can argue for days and get nowhere. So therefore I choose not to argue this point(or lack of) with you, b/c neither one of ours opinion can change the others' mind. And who are you to say that truth is not relative. Depending on your background, educational status, etc. most truth is relative

no you are somewhat right, all truth is not relative. When you get down to the basic, some truths, such as gravity and the like, are not relative. Some truths apply to everone. But when it comes to religion, thats a different story

You know Blib, a person who is an theist and a person who very strongly believes in God and the bible can argue for days and get nowhere.
Depends on how they argue. If it's just, "God exists, because (add such religious text) says so!" and "No he doesn't, you can't trust that!", then of course they're not going to get anywhere. If neither can give any logical basis other than "because I said so", then it's moot. But if they actually attempt to use logic and facts, then they can be turned. I used to be quite religious, I believed everything the bible said. Then I met logical arguments other than, "it says so!"

no you are somewhat right, all truth is not relative. When you get down to the basic, some truths, such as gravity and the like, are not relative. Some truths apply to everone. But when it comes to religion, thats a different story
Exactly, truth isn't relative, but theories are.

Blibblob - fyi - put the quote tag around the quotes it makes it much easier to read. I keep thinking the bold stuff is stuff you are writing

Originally posted by DrewM
Blibblob - fyi - put the quote tag around the quotes it makes it much easier to read. I keep thinking the bold stuff is stuff you are writing
I actually like the way he does it, and I think it's quite easy to read. It interrupts the flow less than multiple quotes in a post do.

i concede that point bliblob. But u or Drew answer me this. Earlier someone mentions psychology and it relation to JWs in the field of mind control. But my question is that aren't psychologist in fact trying to control your mind? Are they not trying to tell you what you should believe, about yourself and other things. Thats one reason I don't respect psychologist, they have the possibility of having too much power in the world.

Psychology is not about trying to tell you what to believe - its about helping you understand what you believe - typically what you believe about yourself.