Lebanonese Troops have been battling an Islamist militant group following an attack on soldiers at a Palestinian refugee camp near the city of Tripoli.

At least 10 members of the Fatah Islam group were reportedly killed in a day of fighting against the Lebanonese army.

Fatah Islam fighters-said to be linked to alQaeda-killed at least 13 troops near the Nahr el-Bared camp.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6673639.stm

Every time I hear, or read, a story about Lebanon, I'm transported to the time I spent in Beirut, 1970-72. It was a beautiful city.

Lebanese*

That spelling is also included in the headline of your article if you doubt me.

Lebanese*

That spelling is also included in the headline of your article if you doubt me.
Yeah I know.
Couldnt be bothered changing it.

"Fighting erupted on Sunday morning after security forces raided a building in Tripoli to arrest suspects in a bank robbery. After resisting arrest, militants said to belong to Fatah Islam then attacked army posts at the entrances to the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp, which is home to some 30,000 displaced Palestinians."

I would suggest that a militant religous group that finances it's operations to overthrow the government by robbing banks, should expect trouble from that government.
I heard a rather insigthtful analysis of what the real issue is in this fighting. Fatah Islam is a Syrian supported group inside Lebanon. The government of Lebanon has in the last week announced that there will be a thorough investigation into Syrian involvement in the Harriri assassination a year or so ago. Many of the same individuals may well be involved in both incidents.
What this may represent is the Lebanese government acting to remove foreign sponsored terrorist groups that have long acted against the interests of the Lebanese people inside Lebanon. If so, I would have to support the right of the Lebanese government to act inside their own territory.

Lebanon is a good example of IMO US Foreign Policy is a failure.
As we all know, The US loans and aids Israel to the tune of $5 billion pa.
Israel for its size has the most advanced Defence Forces in the world,
the US should stop financing them and concentrate on the Palestinians
and countrys like Lebanon, who is struggleing to take control of their country.

Lebanon is a good example of IMO US Foreign Policy is a failure.
As we all know, The US loans and aids Israel to the tune of $5 billion pa.
Israel for its size has the most advanced Defence Forces in the world,
the US should stop financing them and concentrate on the Palestinians
and countrys like Lebanon, who is struggleing to take control of their country.

Now, Paul, just last week you were running the U.S. down for "meddling" in mid east affairs. Is it OK to meddle for one side, but not the other? Come on, Irish, you can't have it both ways. The U.S. should emulate the British (1946-47) and just leave all those fools to their own devises.

i agree.

Now, Paul, just last week you were running the U.S. down for "meddling" in mid east affairs. Is it OK to meddle for one side, but not the other? Come on, Irish, you can't have it both ways. The U.S. should emulate the British (1946-47) and just leave all those fools to their own devises.
Thats true I did, but.
My whole thing about the middle east boils down to basic reasoning.
The US always backs whoever will benefit business interests, and right wing thinking.
Let me try and explain.
Extremeist Muslims are active all over the world, why.
Israels refusal to cut a decent deal with the Palestinians,
and the blatantly unfair distribution of wealth in the region.
Who backs all these rich little kingdoms, and the state of Israel.
The United States of America.
This is why groups like alQaeda gain popular support, from the poor, and
politically frustrated.
This is also why incidents like 9/11 took place, and may happen again
sometime in the future.
IMO the US should try gaining support from the Muslim masses, making sure
that the small guy over there gets a cut of the regions wealth, plus a
feeling of justice for themselves and they're fellow Muslims.
By achieving this the US would start isolating groups like alQaeda, Hezbollah and the Iranians.

Thats true I did, but.
My whole thing about the middle east boils down to basic reasoning.
The US always backs whoever will benefit business interests, and right wing thinking.
Let me try and explain.
Extremeist Muslims are active all over the world, why.
Israels refusal to cut a decent deal with the Palestinians,
and the blatantly unfair distribution of wealth in the region.
Who backs all these rich little kingdoms, and the state of Israel.
The United States of America.
This is why groups like alQaeda gain popular support, from the poor, and
politically frustrated.
This is also why incidents like 9/11 took place, and may happen again
sometime in the future.
IMO the US should try gaining support from the Muslim masses, making sure
that the small guy over there gets a cut of the regions wealth, plus a
feeling of justice for themselves and they're fellow Muslims.
By achieving this the US would start isolating groups like alQaeda, Hezbollah and the Iranians.


I still like the idea of leaving them to sort out their own problems, alone. Its cheaper, and other countries can't bitch about it, because thats what they are doing.

I think doing that just lets scum like alQaeda win.

I think doing that just lets scum like alQaeda win.

When you are reacting to what alQaeda, might or might not do, they have already won.
By getting out of the region, not funding any of them, terrorist groups lose their main argument, and recruiting tool.

Lebanon is a good example of IMO US Foreign Policy is a failure.

of course. what isn't an example of US failures in your world?

Cold War was good, very little fighting, very little killing, just lots of money.
Marshall Plan, pretty good, western europe turned out pretty well.
Maybe we need a Marshall Plan for the mid east.

When you are reacting to what alQaeda, might or might not do, they have already won.
By getting out of the region, not funding any of them, terrorist groups lose their main argument, and recruiting tool.
I would agree broadly with this mod.
theres only one little problem, were it all began.
Israel.

I would agree broadly with this mod.
theres only one little problem, were it all began.
Israel.


Yes, it began in Israel, in 1946-47. It won't end until Arab and Jew learn to live together. Nothing the West does will aid accomplishment of that goal. Its something THEY must work out, between them.

Yes, it began in Israel, in 1946-47. It won't end until Arab and Jew learn to live together. Nothing the West does will aid accomplishment of that goal. Its something THEY must work out, between them.Yes Mod that is true, but Israel has been built up to a position of power so much that it dominates its neighboours.
Heres a couple of examples of why theres Muslim Extremeist hell bent on attacking everything American and Israeli:

Take the Israeli Invasion of Southern Lebanon last year. 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah, as a result, S. Lebanon was destroyed and large parts of Beirut, resulting in hundreds of dead and millions worth of damage, the 2 soldiers are still being held.
During the bombardment the world condemed the Israeli actions, apart from one country,the USA.

Iraq-self explanatory.

Saudi Arabia and the other oil kingdoms. These nations whom are ran by familys are wealthy beyond belief. They are protected and armed by the American Gov. and American arms companys. These oil rich familys are hated by most Muslims.

Yes Mod that is true, but Israel has been built up to a position of power so much that it dominates its neighboours.
Heres a couple of examples of why theres Muslim Extremeist hell bent on attacking everything American and Israeli:

Take the Israeli Invasion of Southern Lebanon last year. 2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah, as a result, S. Lebanon was destroyed and large parts of Beirut, resulting in hundreds of dead and millions worth of damage, the 2 soldiers are still being held.
During the bombardment the world condemed the Israeli actions, apart from one country,the USA.

Iraq-self explanatory.

Saudi Arabia and the other oil kingdoms. These nations whom are ran by familys are wealthy beyond belief. They are protected and armed by the American Gov. and American arms companys. These oil rich familys are hated by most Muslims.

Gosh, Paul, do you think that, just maybe, the FOUR times Israel was attacked by the combined might of the Arab countries, is the reason they have built such a strong military. If someone were to attack me four times, I become VERY aggressive, every time I saw them. I sure would not wait for them to hit me again, nor would I ever believe they would not do the same again. Especially when they keep saying I should not exist.
As for oil rich countries being armed by American companies: You need to look again, the British, French, German and Swiss seem to be suppling just as much MAJOR military hardware as the U.S. does. Not to mention all the AK47s Arabs seem to love so well.

Mod. The Israelis didnt build anything. They were/are suplied and financed by the US.
Your right about the British, French, dont know about the other 2,
and definatly the Russians.Tho these are small fry compard to US support.

the US is not the major supplier of weapons to the middle east, sorry. If you look at any army over there is is mostly comprised of Russian or European equipment. They sometimes buy planes from us.

Mod. The Israelis didnt build anything. They were/are suplied and financed by the US.
Your right about the British, French, dont know about the other 2,
and definatly the Russians.Tho these are small fry compard to US support.

Gee, Paul, I learn more about you daily. Not only are you Anti-American (govt?), but anti-semitic as well. Maybe you could find more people to agree with on a skin-head site.
Sorry Irish, they still need to learn to live together.

I think youll find that the US is #1 supplier in the middle east.

Gee, Paul, I learn more about you daily. Not only are you Anti-American (govt?), but anti-semitic as well. Maybe you could find more people to agree with on a skin-head site.
Sorry Irish, they still need to learn to live together.
Very good mod.
Im not anti semetic or anti American, nice try tho.

I think youll find that the US is #1 supplier in the middle east.

what weapons?

You mean, we're the one's giving the Aye-rabs their AKs?:confused:

Jews get funds from everywhere that jews are stationed. Many wealthy Jews in United States sends money to Isreal but so do the Jews in Russia, Europe and other places.

It is the same with how mega mosques are built in the United States. Muslims here do not fund them all by themselves. Saudi Arbia an others countries in the middle east fund the mega mosques here.

Very good mod.
Im not anti semetic or anti American, nice try tho.


Paul, I'm relatively new here, so please direct me to some of your recents posts where you did not belittle, or blame, the American people, or The American Government, for most of the problems in the world. And just one where you have not blamed Israel for problems in the mid-east.
I'm sorry pal, but your words don't ring true.

Paul, I'm relatively new here, so please direct me to some of your recents posts where you did not belittle, or blame, the American people, or The American Government, for most of the problems in the world.
*points in the vague direction the Middle East* You'll find them there. And don't neglect the khoresht. It's divine.

Paul, I'm relatively new here, so please direct me to some of your recents posts where you did not belittle, or blame, the American people, or The American Government, for most of the problems in the world. And just one where you have not blamed Israel for problems in the mid-east.
I'm sorry pal, but your words don't ring true.

Paul has stated many times that he likes Americans but not our government at the moment.
I guess I am anti -american too because I agree with him.
I also agree with the fact that our meddling in the middles east caused 9/11. I am not condoning what the terrorist did but I can see why arabs are mad. at us.
Paul is not anti-semetic either. He does not hate Jews. Jews are just as much fault for the problems with fighting with thier neighbors as the Muslims in the neighborhood. Each group agtagonizes the other. They each break U.N laws and both commit atrocities against each others. Jews are not innocent.

Paul is not blaming Jews for everything nor America but giving thier share of responsibility in world affairs.

what weapons?
The weapons and technical support for using these weapons.

Israel:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/notif_db.php?regionin=%&ctryin=isr&descin=&date1in=1992&date2in=2002&typein=%

On top of this $5 billion pa in aid and loans, not bad.


Saudi Arabia:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/notif_db.php?regionin=%&rctryin=sau&descin=date1in=1992&date2in2002&typein=%

Kuwait:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/notif_db.php?regionin=%rctryin=kwt&descin=&date1=1992&date2in=2001&typein=%

On top of these dont forget US military personnel stationed in the region,
private companys doing business with these countrys also.

Paul has stated many times that he likes Americans but not our government at the moment.
I guess I am anti -american too because I agree with him.
I also agree with the fact that our meddling in the middles east caused 9/11. I am not condoning what the terrorist did but I can see why arabs are mad. at us.
Paul is not anti-semetic either. He does not hate Jews. Jews are just as much fault for the problems with fighting with thier neighbors as the Muslims in the neighborhood. Each group agtagonizes the other. They each break U.N laws and both commit atrocities against each others. Jews are not innocent.

Paul is not blaming Jews for everything nor America but giving thier share of responsibility in world affairs.

Since Paul has not directed me to any of his posts that don't blame the American People and/or the American Government for MOST of the problems in the world, MAYBE YOU CAN. I'll wait around awhile, I think you'll need a LITTLE time to find any.

LOl, yes we supply isreal. I never doubted that, but it appears the list for saudi arabiaand kuwait are empty.

Mod. Prehaps you should look thru my posts and tell me were Im anti American.
Anti American now.
Dont get it confused with anti American Government.

LOl, yes we supply isreal. I never doubted that, but it appears the list for saudi arabiaand kuwait are empty.
So I see. Sorry Trav dont know what happened there.
Maybe theres a flight from Langley to my house as we speak.

The weapons and technical support for using these weapons.

Israel:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/notif_db.php?regionin=%&ctryin=isr&descin=&date1in=1992&date2in=2002&typein=%

On top of this $5 billion pa in aid and loans, not bad.


Saudi Arabia:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/notif_db.php?regionin=%&rctryin=sau&descin=date1in=1992&date2in2002&typein=%

Kuwait:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/notif_db.php?regionin=%rctryin=kwt&descin=&date1=1992&date2in=2001&typein=%

On top of these dont forget US military personnel stationed in the region,
private companys doing business with these countrys also.

lol, the list for sale of arms to Saudi Arabia says zero items pending. way to prove your point!

Since Paul has not directed me to any of his posts that don't blame the American People and/or the American Government for MOST of the problems in the world, MAYBE YOU CAN. I'll wait around awhile, I think you'll need a LITTLE time to find any.

I am not your secretary. You got something to proof go back and repost his words to support your view that he is anti-american and anti semetic.

the only reason you are accusing him of these things is the mere fact he is european.

Who by the way gets information not censored by the American government. I suggest you watch BBC for a while and you will see the stuff the amerian media omits from its reports.

if we censor information how can we have access to the BBC? The very fact aht you have access to outside news sources kind of makes censoring news irrelevant. DOnt ya think? Only if only state run media was available would censoring and fixing news work.

lol, the list for sale of arms to Saudi Arabia says zero items pending. way to prove your point!
It dosent have to be an up-to-the-minute-post to prove my point.

Mod. Prehaps you should look thru my posts and tell me were Im anti American.
Anti American now.
Dont get it confused with anti American Government.

No need to look Paul, just a few days ago you were going on about how American don't do enough for the less fortunate in the world. Then you complained that we (Americans) are trying to control the world through our meddling.
Sorry chum, in this country, the People are the government. Attack one you attack the other. We Americans can say what we want about OUR govt. But meddling foreigner need to clean their own sty before worrying about anyone else's.

we can watch BBC but you usually cannot get it mainstream in America. Usually on the internet and other sites. THe masses do not watch BBC. So no they are not banned but they do not influence main stream viewers as does CNN, CBS, ABC, FOX and other American channels who omit information that makes Americans look too terribly bad.

It dosent have to be an up-to-the-minute-post to prove my point.

seeing that it says zero items pending I think it porves the opposite of what your point was. taht we supply arms to saudi arabia and others.

I am not your secretary. You got something to proof go back and repost his words to support your view that he is anti-american and anti semetic.

the only reason you are accusing him of these things is the mere fact he is european.

Who by the way gets information not censored by the American government. I suggest you watch BBC for a while and you will see the stuff the amerian media omits from its reports.

I already have sweetheart. And honey, you could never be a secretary, for anyone.

No need to look Paul, just a few days ago you were going on about how American don't do enough for the less fortunate in the world. Then you complained that we (Americans) are trying to control the world through our meddling.
Sorry chum, in this country, the People are the government. Attack one you attack the other. We Americans can say what we want about OUR govt. But meddling foreigner need to clean their own sty before worrying about anyone else's.

why does he not get to criticize the U.S? he never said that Europe was perfect in fact I am sure he will agree that they let way too many muslim immigrants into Europe and many of them are out of control.

We criticize Europe all the time especailly france because they did not support the war on Iraq and our kitchen wasn't clean.

Why is his criticism of us off limit of the United States when we criticize the middle east, europe and Russia. I think that is a bit hypocritical.

I already have sweetheart. And honey, you could never be a secretary, for anyone.

I wouldn't want to be a secretary for anyone because I am in Business Administration for a real job not a piss ant job.

No need to look Paul, just a few days ago you were going on about how American don't do enough for the less fortunate in the world. Then you complained that we (Americans) are trying to control the world through our meddling.Thats correct. On one hand the US Government take sides with certain countrys, and spend a fortune arming and financeing them. On the other hand the US Government spend buttons on feeding people.

Sorry chum, in this country, the People are the government. Attack one you attack the other. We Americans can say what we want about OUR govt. But meddling foreigner need to clean their own sty before worrying about anyone else's.No prbs there man. Anything BAD you wanna say about Ireland that I agree with, or is true, I'll back you up, no problem.
As for 'the people are the Government', get real.
It dosent work that way in the real world.

yes the people are the government which is why almost 1/2 the nation voted against bush. Just because Bush and his cronnies got voted in does not mean he does the "will" of the people. Especailly since America is divided.

Thats correct. On one hand the US Government take sides with certain countrys, and spend a fortune arming and financeing them. On the other hand the US Government spend buttons on feeding people.
No prbs there man. Anything BAD you wanna say about Ireland that I agree with, or is true, I'll back you up, no problem.
As for 'the people are the Government', get real.
It dosent work that way in the real world.

Guess we don't need anymore elections then.
And we should spend nothing, for both, until we, as a Nation, are debt free.
Whats to know about Ireland? With the "troubles" behind them, they don't make the news, much, anymore.

yes the people are the government which is why almost 1/2 the nation voted against bush. Just because Bush and his cronnies got voted in does not mean he does the "will" of the people. Especailly since America is divided.


Hey, half the nation didn't even bother to vote. Can't really blame them, as long as we have choices like Bush vs Kerry, and the antiquated electoral college.

Sorry chum, in this country, the People are the government. Attack one you attack the other. We Americans can say what we want about OUR govt. But meddling foreigner need to clean their own sty before worrying about anyone else's.What are you, about 4' 11"?

Palestinian refugees are not assimilating with lebanese population, they live like in an other world. Closed from authorities, poor and dark, such places as Nahr el-Bareed become home for crime and islamism. Lebanese liberalism and confessionalism highly contrasts with what is inside of these camps.

It does and they do my Ruskie friend.
Tho Palestinians dont want to become Lebanonese.

In Tripoli right now, the Lebanese army is pounding a Palestinian refugee camp with tank shells and other heavy weapons far less discriminating in their lethal effects than anything fired by Israeli ground troops in Jenin—and many Lebanese are cheering them on. The choir of Europeans and American leftists who routinely champion the Palestinian cause is strangely silent—or maybe not so strangely silent. Perhaps their real interest lies not in defending Palestinian rights but in bashing Israel—and Israel, of course, is not engaged in this particular fray.

Now of course they'll all come out with their criticism but only after their hypocrisy has been pointed out. How beleiveable will that be?

Has anybody got the number for BBC in London.
Theyve live pics on now, saying the ceasefire is holding.