Is denying evolutionary biology as absurd as denying that 2 and 2 make 4?

Quite literally yes:

[Winston:] 'But the world itself is only a speck of dust. And man is tiny helpless! How long has he been in existence? For millions of years the earth was uninhabited.'

[O'Brien:] 'Nonsense. The earth is as old as we are, no older. How could it be older? Nothing exists except through human consciousness.'

'But the rocks are full of the bones of extinct animals -- mammoths and mastodons and enormous reptiles which lived here long before man was ever heard of.'

'Have you ever seen those bones, Winston? Of course not. Nineteenth-century biologists invented them. Before man there was nothing. After man, if he could come to an end, there would be nothing. Outside man there is nothing.'

'But the whole universe is outside us. Look at the stars ! Some of them are a million light-years away. They are out of our reach for ever.'

'What are the stars?' said O'Brien indifferently. 'They are bits of fire a few kilometres away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out. The earth is the centre of the universe. The sun and the stars go round it.'

George Orwell, 1984 (http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/books/1984.html)

Wow! Orwell has done probably the best impression of a straw man argument I've ever seen.

saying creationist and big brother are one in the same based on this passage is a bit of a stretch. Obrien was no religious creationist. If anything they were lar left athiests who cliam they were god.

I'm scared.

Wow! Orwell has done probably the best impression of a straw man argument I've ever seen.If there is a straw man here I am to blame not Orwell.

Anyway, it's just a bit of tongue-in-cheek fun.

Obrien was no religious creationist. If anything they were lar left athiests who cliam they were god.Very true. You get locked up just for saying the word god in 1984:

Ampleforth paused, mildly startled. His eyes focused themselves slowly on Winston.

'Ah, Smith!' he said. 'You too!'

'What are you in for?'

'To tell you the truth -- ' He sat down awkwardly on the bench opposite Winston. 'There is only one offence, is there not?' he said.

'And have you committed it?'

'Apparently I have.'

He put a hand to his forehead and pressed his temples for a moment, as though trying to remember something.

'These things happen,' he began vaguely. 'I have been able to recall one instance -- a possible instance. It was an indiscretion, undoubtedly. We were producing a definitive edition of the poems of Kipling. I allowed the word "God" to remain at the end of a line. I could not help it!' he added almost indignantly, raising his face to look at Winston. 'It was impossible to change the line. The rhyme was "rod". Do you realize that there are only twelve rhymes to "rod" in the entire language? For days I had racked my brains. There was no other rhyme.'

Blob, wasn't that a quote from Orwell?

Blob, wasn't that a quote from Orwell?Yes, both quotes are from 1984. The full text is available from the above link.

If the quote is from Orwell, why do you say:
If there is a straw man here I am to blame not Orwell.

If the quote is from Orwell, why do you say: If there is a straw man here I am to blame not Orwell.Orwell did not have religion in mind when he wrote that scene. It's just a coincidence that nowadays it resonates with theistic creationism.

That was a lot of reading, sounds of the type of message you would see in the Grapes of Wrath.

That was a lot of reading, sounds of the type of message you would see in the Grapes of Wrath.
Great book.

far left athiests
You mean fascists. The far left atheism was a farce. There was no communism, only war and thought control. The reason god was outlawed was only because it was in contention with 'the party'/big brother.

Facades are all some people remember of history. Rather then looking at the facts of the situation and who did what they judge things based on what certain people said they were.

so then you agree that people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of jesus are not really christians then? Just as the athiest soviets were not really communist? its a facade? I personally have never gotten a leftist to make the distinction between the kooks and the christians, as it is to beneficial to them and thier arguments to lump them all together. They do however make sure that we know the soviets were not real communists, and there has never been a truly communist regime, that all regimes who claim they were communist are not. I personally do not know so I will take your word for it.

so then you agree that people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of jesus are not really christians then?
If they hold Jesus as a deity, they're Christians regardless of what they do.
Just as the athiest soviets were not really communist?
Socialist dictatorship*
I personally have never gotten a leftist to make the distinction between the kooks and the christians, as it is to beneficial to them and thier arguments to lump them all together.
Those who bomb abortion clinics are insane to the point of being psychotic, whereas the average Christian is just partially insane.

so then you agree that people who bomb abortion clinics in the name of jesus are not really christians then? I would not consider them followers of christ. However Evak brings up a good point. Suppossedly all you have to do to be a christian and go to heaven is to accept christ as the son of God. I also see this as a lie by those in power have communicated through religion. the actual phrase is "accept Jesus (into your heart)" to me that means you would try to act like him. For organized religion looking to herd the masses it simply mean believing he was the son of god.

So to me actual Christians would be more along the lines of actual communists. Feeding the hungry, clothing the poor and curing the sick. Denouncing murder, consummerism, conflict, racism, war and apathy. That is a true christian.

The 'Christian Peace Makers' are the closest I have seen to this ideal.
http://www.cpt.org/

There have been a few communist/anachist ideals throughout history. The spanish civil war was one example. Early christian communes (like 1 AD). Quite a few tribal groups the !tung being the most well known example.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/ancient.shtml

"In fact, in San Bushman culture, to eat in front of another person who is without food is an immoral act, every bit as horrific as in our culture if a person were to walk out onto a busy city sidewalk, pull down their pants, and defecate. Everybody would be shocked and horrified."

Those who bomb abortion clinics are insane to the point of being psychotic, whereas the average Christian is just partially insane.heh...

If they hold Jesus as a deity, they're Christians regardless of what they do.



what if they are athiest plants who just want to give christianity a bad name?

If I say I'm a doctor with a phd.. do you automatically take me for one, or do you want evidence? It seems anyone who says they are a christian and does something insane is just automatically lumped in without seeing what they were really all about...

If a doctor with a phd purposely kills someone, THAT is a knock on doctors. If some person who CLAIMS to be a doctor with a phd but has no evidence to prove it purposely kills someone.. that's no knock on doctors.

If a doctor with a phd purposely kills someone, THAT is a knock on doctors.
What? No it isn't. It has nothing to do with doctors.

It surely makes one think twice about their current doctor, or at least makes one a TAD more weary... wouldn't you say?

If one doctor, who is fully qualified, ever does something like that, the media makes sure to blow it up out of proportion enough so that idiots come on message boards and say "Doctors are killing patients!" when it only happened once.

what if they are athiest plants who just want to give christianity a bad name?
What the hell?

Oh, and Decka--medical doctors get MD degrees, not PhDs, to become practicing doctors.

what if they are athiest plants who just want to give christianity a bad name?
Just quit watering them, and they won't be able to pray for more water.

If they hold Jesus as a deity, they're Christians regardless of what they do.

and what if they just say they do? clearly if someone blows up abortion clinics they do not truly hold jesus as a deity. They say they do. The thing is, we tend to believe people we would not normally believe in any other situation if it helps our arguments. If you hate christians you will believe the most crazed, incoherant lunatic when he says he chopped up the family for jesus. He must be telling the truth! He said it!

and what if they just say they do? clearly if someone blows up abortion clinics they do not truly hold jesus as a deity. They say they do. The thing is, we tend to believe people we would not normally believe in any other situation if it helps our arguments. If you hate christians you will believe the most crazed, incoherant lunatic when he says he chopped up the family for jesus. He must be telling the truth! He said it!

Absolutely agreed...

and yea I don't know why i said "phd".. LOL

and what if they just say they do?
It is not your business to determine someone else's religion for them.
clearly if someone blows up abortion clinics they do not truly hold jesus as a deity.
Do expound on this idea. Because if violence is what determines if one is not Christian than many people, from popes to yourself, are not Christian, no?
If you hate christians you will believe the most crazed, incoherant lunatic when he says he chopped up the family for jesus. He must be telling the truth! He said it!
If he says that Jesus told him to do it, I won't believe him. If he justifies the attacks in the name of Jesus, that's different as he is just pointing to his own motivations rather than bringing up some sort of supernatural circumstance. Either situation however, makes me classify him as a lunatic.

just like someone else ws saing, there has never been any true communist state, there is no true christians. To be a perfect chrisitan you would have to be Christ. All christaisn can do is strive to be like christ. No one is perfect.

just like someone else ws saing, there has never been any true communist state, there is no true christians. To be a perfect chrisitan you would have to be Christ. All christaisn can do is strive to be like christ. No one is perfect.
To be a perfect Christian perhaps one must act as Christ, but to identify as a Christian it just takes that religious affiliation brought up by belief in His deity.

so then too does a communist. that was my point. We got people like guerilla who label every kook who claims to be christian as real chiristains yet wont say the soviet union, who claimed to be communist, were relly communists.

so then too does a communist. that was my point. We got people like guerilla who label every kook who claims to be christian as real chiristains yet wont say the soviet union, who claimed to be communist, were relly communists.
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

Soyuz Sovetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik

Ya, and most christian denominations dont specify the word christian in their official title either, whats your point?

Ya, and most christian denominations dont specify the word christian in their official title either, whats your point?
The Soviets did not profess to be communist, but socialist, despite your claiming otherwise. A place registered with our government as a Christian church, that professes to be a Christian place of worship despite their title's ambiguity, is Christian.

Now, please, stop making my blood pressure rise to old granny levels.

OK, so I guess communist was a label slapped on them by the west right?

OK, so I guess communist was a label slapped on them by the west right?
Yes. Now please disappear again for a couple months.

I will give you a couple days, only so you can try and get clever again.

We got people like guerilla who label every kook who claims to be christian as real chiristains please do provide support for your claims. As of right now your standing is "FULL OF SHIT". provide evidence and yo umay have credibility...good luck.

In fact I do quite the opposite. I ridicule those claiming to be christian who applaud war, violence etc...in fact people just like you Trav.

excuse me, I must have missed all of your posts making sure we knew psychos who claimed to be christians were not really chrisitans.

excuse me, I must have missed all of your posts making sure we knew psychos who claimed to be christians were not really chrisitans. too late to backtrack I asked you for the specific charge you laid against me...
We got people like guerilla who label every kook who claims to be christian as real chiristains
please do provide support for your claims. As of right now your standing is "FULL OF SHIT". provide evidence and yo umay have credibility...good luck. so wheres the evidence Trav...or are you just too busy denying it all?

OK, give me a year to filter through 5,000 of your posts and I will get back to you :rolleyes:

eh, Trav you have no need to go back and look... I recall the obvious anti-christian agenda 500 has had.... Now it's him that is back-tracking... because going back and digging that shit up takes time, and while he might have alot of it as he eats popcorn in his parent's basement... I can't speak for you but a guy like me surely don't. All I can do is remember what I read...

OK, give me a year to filter through 5,000 of your posts and I will get back to you theres a search engine smart guy...

If you're not willing to prove it how bout a suggestion...STFU, dammit.

You saying that 500 is like me saying "Go get some proof the John Madden likes Brett Favre!!"... there's no point, everyone knows Madden jerks off Favre with hand lotion on every telecast. You just seem to be in the state of denial.

Sure decka just keep pushing all those lies like you always do.

Sure decka just keep pushing all those lies like you always do.

what a statement... done by the elite here folks..

I guess I "always lie"...

so just don't listen to me... nothing to see here!!! Anyone who deals with absolutes is an absolute brainless jerk-off themself.

Great book.

Yes it is.

They need to update the movie so they can show some of the more graphic images that made the book what it was.

I guess I "always lie"...

so just don't listen to me... nothing to see here!!! Its true...I won't bother posting evidence because everyone knows it true. STFU, Dammit.

Its true...I won't bother posting evidence because everyone knows it true.


LMAO..

let me know when you get out of "debate 101" class..
:thumbs:

I learn from the best :)

eh, Trav you have no need to go back and look... I recall the obvious anti-christian agenda 500 has had.... Now it's him that is back-tracking... because going back and digging that shit up takes time, and while he might have alot of it as he eats popcorn in his parent's basement... I can't speak for you but a guy like me surely don't. All I can do is remember what I read...