Russia and the EU have a long list of grievences to discuss at their summit in the Volga City of Samara on Friday.

In a break from previous practise, no joint declaration will be issued, because there would not be enough to say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6665309.stm

I understand such problematic issues as enery and missiles, but geez.. human rights and Estonia.. Both are obviously artificially created "problems" used as pre-election cards - first in Europe, second in Russia. I can't believe that our relations became so primitive.

Are you suggesting human rights are not an issue in Russia D.
Estonia has handled the Red Army memorial issue very badly.
There is a large ethnic Russian population living there,they're sensitivities were not taken into consideration so conflict was ensured.
I guess it comes down to anti Russian sentiment. The Communists left a very bad legacy behind them.

Paulc, where is your pragmatism?
Estonia made a barbaric action to remove the monument, but in russian media they surely overreacted. Estonia is really sovereign state which may rewrite history as it wishes - let them pay for that in future. There are many human rights problems in Europe, and it is not Russia's business. As well as Russia's democracy is not Europe's business.

I am not sure though, if we have the same view on human rights importance. I can surely name Ireland a welfare state comparing with Russia, and your president's liberalism towards homosexuals for exampe doesn't surprise me in this case. I mean in Russia everybody is concerned about economical reconstrucion, not human rights - that's why soft-authoritarian politics of Putin is supported by 80% of people. I just don't understand why Europe is so interested in Russian internal politics.

When it comes to Kosovo I agree with the Russians. The EU has no right to expect the Russians to simply allow part of their country to declare independence even if it is independence under U.N. control. I don't think any of the EU nations would accept such conditions either.

Concerning trade, Russia is far too protectionist. It has high tarrifs and uses trade to punish countries it has arguments with. The refusal to buy meat from Poland is an example.

Estonia is a sovreign nation and Russia no longer controls it. If the Estonians wish to move the Russian War Memorial that is the business of the Estonians and not the Russians or the EU's.

I fully agree with Frogger, but still i have to add that ecomonical pressure is a usual tactics among big and ambitious countries, isn't it? ;)

When it comes to Kosovo I agree with the Russians. The EU has no right to expect the Russians to simply allow part of their country to declare independence even if it is independence under U.N. control. I don't think any of the EU nations would accept such conditions either.

Concerning trade, Russia is far too protectionist. It has high tarrifs and uses trade to punish countries it has arguments with. The refusal to buy meat from Poland is an example.

Estonia is a sovreign nation and Russia no longer controls it. If the Estonians wish to move the Russian War Memorial that is the business of the Estonians and not the Russians or the EU's.
Ah Frogger, Kosovo is part of Serbia, its none of Russias business if these people want to become independant. Moscow seems to adapt the view that its still its duty to protect the slavic peoples of Europe.

Sorry, Paul. I didn't mean Kosovo. For some reason I was thinking Chechnya.

Regarding Kosovo; I don't think it should be granted independence. I think it should remain part of Greater Serbia. In my opinion the U.N. made a big mistake going into the area. All they succeeded in doing was replacing Serbians with ethnic Albania Muslims who are killing the remaining Serbian inhabitants of the region.

I just want you to remember that I am discussing NON_AMERICAN issues with you, Paul.:lolhit:

Paulc, where is your pragmatism?
Estonia made a barbaric action to remove the monument, but in russian media they surely overreacted. Estonia is really sovereign state which may rewrite history as it wishes - let them pay for that in future. There are many human rights problems in Europe, and it is not Russia's business. As well as Russia's democracy is not Europe's business.
I think using the word 'barbaric' is a bit strong.Lets face it,even tho the Red Army defeated the Nazis in Estonia, Estonia wasnt actually freed until 1991.
Im concerned by the term -''let them pay for that in future''- please explain.

I am not sure though, if we have the same view on human rights importance. I can surely name Ireland a welfare state comparing with Russia, and your president's liberalism towards homosexuals for exampe doesn't surprise me in this case. I mean in Russia everybody is concerned about economical reconstrucion, not human rights - that's why soft-authoritarian politics of Putin is supported by 80% of people. I just don't understand why Europe is so interested in Russian internal politics.
Yea, I bet you dont put as much importance on human rights.
As for Ireland being a welfare state, I dont know where you get this from. Ireland dosent have enough workers to fill the vacencys it has.
Putins soft-authoritarian politics, yea right.
The EU likes to export human rights and democracy, aswell as cars,computers,food and many more things.

I just want you to remember that I am discussing NON_AMERICAN issues with you, Paul.:lolhit:
So I see, but youll need to dig out your map of Europe again.
Its on the top shelf,just below, Hansel and Gretel.

So I see, but youll need to dig out your map of Europe again.
Its on the top shelf,just below, Hansel and Gretel.

Is that my English version of Hansel and Gretel or my German version, Hansel und Gretel?

show off

I think using the word 'barbaric' is a bit strong.Lets face it,even tho the Red Army defeated the Nazis in Estonia, Estonia wasnt actually freed until 1991.
Im concerned by the term -''let them pay for that in future''- please explain.
In 1991 Estonia (which was within Russia since XVIII century) gained independence. In 1944 they gained the right to exist as a nation. For estonians nazism seems to be a lesser evil than soviet annexation. Though i am not sure nazis were more humanistic about estonians, i understand that it's all Estonia's deal to define "bad guys" and "good guys". If they prefer to praise nazis who fought on furher's side - it is their problem. But i think it is contrary to the european understanding of WWII. Or i'm wrong? Somebody said, nation which can't respect its history is doomed to survive it again.

Yea, I bet you dont put as much importance on human rights.
As for Ireland being a welfare state, I dont know where you get this from. Ireland dosent have enough workers to fill the vacencys it has.
Putins soft-authoritarian politics, yea right.
The EU likes to export human rights and democracy, aswell as cars,computers,food and many more things.
I'm just saying that more people are rich (you can't denie that comparing with Russia Ireland is rich), more they care about civil rights. You are very right about comparing democracy with cars and computers. When you export smth you expect some money for that. I hardly believe european authorities really care about human rights in Russia, while russians themselves don't care. I more believe that they expect some profit for "democratizing" Russia, which in fact means making russian authorities more persuadeable.

Dzerod,

You seem to have a different view of Estonian history than I do. You make it seem that Estonia peacefully became part of Russia in the 1700's.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Estonia became part of Russia by the Treaty of Nystad ending the Great Northern War. They were annexed. They didn't peacefully join Russia.

In 1918 the Estonians gained their independence from Russia and proclaimed themselves a republic. This repulic lasted until Soviet troops invaded the country in 1940 and once again annexed it. It was forceably made part of the Soviet Union in 1944.

If the Estonians dislike the Russians they have good reasons. They became part of the Soviet Union through force, not because the people wanted it.

Frogger, i am glad you have such knowledge. I am sure you also know that Estonia wasn't independent in that time, as it was part of Sweden. Before that it was under Poland, before that it was under Teutonic order and so on.. So i don't see a principal difference between russian/polish/german/swedish pretensions over this region. I am sorry to admit that, but small countries are doomed to become penny coins in disputes of superpowers, wether it is Russia, Sweden or Germany.

You don't understand me correctly. I am not offended by estonian russophobia, and i don't pretend for their love and respect. I understand their reasons to dislike russians. I'm just saying it is short-sighted of them to praise nazis just because they were against russians.

I agree with you that it is shortsighted of them to praise the Nazis but you have to remember than many Estonians were Nazis themselves. They freely joined the Nazi army including the Waffen SS. Many of them joined the German armies when they retreated from Estonia. Many of those who remained in Estonia were badly mistreated by their Soviet conquerors. They were killed or deported to Siberia.

It is a common trait to consider the enemy of my enemy my friend. In this case the enemy of the Estonian's enemy just happened to be Nazi Germany.

Hansel und Gretel?
I can't read german! What does this mean?! Little Red Riding Hood?

No, it means, Polish/American teenagers are smart asses.:woohoo:

Dzerod. The EU is interested in Human Rights for all people in all places. As the EU is mostly a trading bock, it will use its trading power as a weapon.

If the peoples of Estonia wish to free themselves of Russian influence, thats they're choice, but Russia uses its gas supplies as a weaponagainst its neighbours, something the EU wont stand for.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6668111.stm

Dzerod. The EU is interested in Human Rights for all people in all places. As the EU is mostly a trading bock, it will use its trading power as a weapon.
"Human rights" word combination is understood differently worldwide, Paulc. Who's rights in Russia is Europe protecting, if majority of russians don't want european (as well as anyone's) involvment in this sphere? If you give such a high respect to people's rights, so respect their right for independent development without any "protectors" from the west. Is that so hard to understand?

If the peoples of Estonia wish to free themselves of Russian influence, thats they're choice, but Russia uses its gas supplies as a weaponagainst its neighbours, something the EU wont stand for.

Estonia is already free of Russian influence, it is not a member of Soveit Union, it is member of EU, OSCE, NATO and all possible and impossible western alliances and blocks. What do you want more from Russia? To give them gas and oil free as an excuse for occupation? It's not Russia's problem that they have no other sourses of energy.
What's more, russians who live in Estonia don't wish to "free themselves of Russian influence". They don't wish american jets and soldiers there. They don't wish populist russophobic government there. They wish Estonia to be closer to Russia. They wish to speak native language freely. They wish to watch russian TV and listen to russian radio. They wish to give a respect to soviet soldiers's memory, whom they suppose to be liberators, not occupants. The EU is interested in Human Rights for all people in all places? So protect their rights for that, paulc. They are citizens of Europe, and there are thousands and thousands of them. And stop involving in Russia's affairs.

"Human rights" word combination is understood differently worldwide, Paulc. Who's rights in Russia is Europe protecting, if majority of russians don't want european (as well as anyone's) involvment in this sphere? If you give such a high respect to people's rights, so respect their right for independent development without any "protectors" from the west. Is that so hard to understand?
Dzerod,theres days when I say to myself,whats really changed in Russia since the days of the Comunists.Its easy for some people in Russia to say they dont want European involvment,an isolationist policy isnt good, whats Russias leaders afraid of from the outside world.


Estonia is already free of Russian influence, it is not a member of Soveit Union, it is member of EU, OSCE, NATO and all possible and impossible western alliances and blocks. What do you want more from Russia? To give them gas and oil free as an excuse for occupation? It's not Russia's problem that they have no other sourses of energy.
What's more, russians who live in Estonia don't wish to "free themselves of Russian influence". They don't wish american jets and soldiers there. They don't wish populist russophobic government there. They wish Estonia to be closer to Russia. They wish to speak native language freely. They wish to watch russian TV and listen to russian radio. They wish to give a respect to soviet soldiers's memory, whom they suppose to be liberators, not occupants. The EU is interested in Human Rights for all people in all places? So protect their rights for that, paulc. They are citizens of Europe, and there are thousands and thousands of them. And stop involving in Russia's affairs.
You say that Estonia is free of Russian influence,unfortunatly,Estonians dont seem to share your view.I would say,that they have handled the Memorial issue badly,and can understand they're joining NATO is frowned upon in Moscow.The closer NATO edges against Russias borders,the more chance on confrontation,which has the potential of global catastrophy.
As for the ethnic Russian minority,these people are victums of history,a left over from the cold war,Im surprised that Russia dosent financially help these people to relocate home.They more than anything else,are probably what the Estonians fear most,and yes they have human rights,which should be protected also.

Dzerod,theres days when I say to myself,whats really changed in Russia since the days of the Comunists.Its easy for some people in Russia to say they dont want European involvment,an isolationist policy isnt good, whats Russias leaders afraid of from the outside world.
There's a famous quote on that matter: "I never knew Russia is an authoritarian state before i turned on the TV". Paulc, you will never know what changed in Russia since the days of socialism, because you hardly ever been here: neither before nor after 1991. As well as the most part of europeans, who are anyway sure that Russia is going "back", because they heared smth about that on TV.

Who's and which namely rights does Europe want to protect in Russia, and why? To say more concrete: which of my personal rights? I never asked anything from Europe, what Europe can offer me? Only without ideological terms, please.

You say that Estonia is free of Russian influence,unfortunatly,Estonians dont seem to share your view.
I'm very sorry for estonians and their feelings, and repeating my question: what is Russia's fault?

As for the ethnic Russian minority,these people are victums of history,a left over from the cold war,Im surprised that Russia dosent financially help these people to relocate home.They more than anything else,are probably what the Estonians fear most,and yes they have human rights,which should be protected also.
Russia has no money to transfer that crowds to Russia and give them place for living. As soon as those people will decide that they better go to Russia and earn some money for that, they will return. But today don't put responsibility for them on Russia from EU. They are citizens of EU, and if their rights should be protected so protect them please first of all.

There's a famous quote on that matter: "I never knew Russia is an authoritarian state before i turned on the TV". Paulc, you will never know what changed in Russia since the days of socialism, because you hardly ever been here: neither before nor after 1991. As well as the most part of europeans, who are anyway sure that Russia is going "back", because they heared smth about that on TV. [/QUOYE]
You got a couple of points right here.
Ive never been to Russia,which is ok,nice looking country tho.
I'll never know whats changd in Russia, ok,tell me.

[QUOTE=Dzerod]Who's and which namely rights does Europe want to protect in Russia, and why? To say more concrete: which of my personal rights? I never asked anything from Europe, what Europe can offer me? Only without ideological terms, please.[If you feel your rights are ok and your happy with them, that suits me just fine,and Im happy for you.
What concerns me is that when theres anti Putin protests in Russia,the Internal Security Forces are down on them like a ton of bricks.
When anti Putin figures speak out against his rule,they suddenly contract radiation poisonig and die a terrable death in London Hospitals, those sort of things concern me.
[QUOTE=Dzerod]
I'm very sorry for estonians and their feelings, and repeating my question: what is Russia's fault?
Well the Estonians feel that they're being victumised by Russian elements, especially with internet access,and they're links to the rest of the EU.
http://www.newsalerts.com/news/article/estonia-suspects-kremlin-in-web-attacks.html:scitech2:935271


Russia has no money to transfer that crowds to Russia and give them place for living. As soon as those people will decide that they better go to Russia and earn some money for that, they will return. But today don't put responsibility for them on Russia from EU. They are citizens of EU, and if their rights should be protected so protect them please first of all.
Your right,as Estonian Citizens they are Citizens of the EU. I already said that Estonia dealt with the war memorial very badly.

You got a couple of points right here.
Ive never been to Russia,which is ok,nice looking country tho.
I'll never know whats changd in Russia, ok,tell me.
I am not sure i can tell you about that in a few words, Paulc. It's not just black and white. Of course there are, some positive moments, some negative moments, but the whole picture is too complex. If you want i'll try to give a complex answer on that, but the only thing i can state clearly: Soviet Union is dead and buried with all the honors, and Russia is moving forward with respect to its history and making conclusions of what happened to it in past.

If you feel your rights are ok and your happy with them, that suits me just fine,and Im happy for you.
What concerns me is that when theres anti Putin protests in Russia,the Internal Security Forces are down on them like a ton of bricks.
When anti Putin figures speak out against his rule,they suddenly contract radiation poisonig and die a terrable death in London Hospitals, those sort of things concern me.
If anti-Putin figures have business with terrorist Zakayev and criminal Berezovsky, their terrible death in London hospitals can not be a surprise for me. But you couldn't expect anything more from a person who wrote a book about FSB blowing up houses in Russia and noted in a newspaper that Putin kissed a boy in a stomach because he is a pedophile.
Please understand me right, i am not protecting Putin. I am not denying that he has his own disadvantages. But speaking about mentally healthy opposition leaders.. i can not say that there is a real need to prevent their manifestations with such diligence. To say honestly i can't be non-biased here, because i hate all radicals (those who are beaten up by police). I hate nationalists, "bolsheviks" because they are dumb and stupid. In such manifestations those who call themselves liberals go side by side with nazis. Maybe it is not very democratic of ministery of internal affairs, but i think they're doing right but too cruel maybe. Still, many people wouldn't agree with me, and they won't be jailed for that. Those who make disorders have problems with law - it is everywhere.
There is of course normal opposition in Russia - Communist party, Liberal-democratic party, "Rodina".. They reside in Parliament, and make politics. Yes, they are weak, because not popular. Though, some parties gain popularity rather quickly last months. Anyway they have their voters and protect their interests, and nobody jails them for that.

Well the Estonians feel that they're being victumised by Russian elements, especially with internet access,and they're links to the rest of the EU.
http://www.newsalerts.com/news/article/estonia-suspects-kremlin-in-web-attacks.html:scitech2:935271
But those are stupid hackers, not Andropov. Hackers do not define foreign politics of Russia towards Estonia. I'm talking about political influence.

If anti-Putin figures have business with terrorist Zakayev and criminal Berezovsky, their terrible death in London hospitals can not be a surprise for me.
Please tell me why this wouldnt be a surprise to you.
To say honestly i can't be non-biased here, because i hate all radicals (those who are beaten up by police). I hate nationalists, "bolsheviks" because they are dumb and stupid. In such manifestations those who call themselves liberals go side by side with nazis. Maybe it is not very democratic of ministery of internal affairs, but i think they're doing right but too cruel maybe. Still, many people wouldn't agree with me, and they won't be jailed for that. Those who make disorders have problems with law - it is everywhere.
In the EU this sort of behaviour is a rarity.If you think that the Internal Security Forces are 'doing right',well, this upsets me.

There is of course normal opposition in Russia - Communist party, Liberal-democratic party, "Rodina".. They reside in Parliament, and make politics. Yes, they are weak, because not popular. Though, some parties gain popularity rather quickly last months. Anyway they have their voters and protect their interests, and nobody jails them for that.
Dee, I think its the norm in the west to argue your case with your opponents,even if you dont like they're views. Its also essential for the law to act seperatly from the state.


But those are stupid hackers, not Andropov. Hackers do not define foreign politics of Russia towards Estonia. I'm talking about political influence.Maybe Moscow should do something to stop these hackers then,because they seem organised.

Please tell me why this wouldnt be a surprise to you.
Because it is dangerous to play with terrorists and ciminals. Today they give you money, and tomorrow they would like to get rid of you.

In the EU this sort of behaviour is a rarity.If you think that the Internal Security Forces are 'doing right',well, this upsets me.
I'm not saying they must beat them up as strong as they can. I just don't like those people very much, and support strong action against them. I see a real threat to Russia in them.

Dee, I think its the norm in the west to argue your case with your opponents,even if you dont like they're views. Its also essential for the law to act seperatly from the state.
That's right. Those who can argue in a civilized manner, do that in parliament. I have nothing against that. I am against colored revolutions and crazy show rioting in the streets.

Maybe Moscow should do something to stop these hackers then,because they seem organised.
I'm almost sure that these are deals of "Nashi" movement. They claim to be pro-kremlin movement, but in fact are also reactionist idiots just like skin-heads.

Because it is dangerous to play with terrorists and ciminals. Today they give you money, and tomorrow they would like to get rid of you.
Strange, in this part of the world, we give terrorists the money.


I'm not saying they must beat them up as strong as they can. I just don't like those people very much, and support strong action against them. I see a real threat to Russia in them.
If Democracy is strong and healthy,you shouldnt feel a threat from these people.As for beating them up,well, thats old Russia talking.

That's right. Those who can argue in a civilized manner, do that in parliament. I have nothing against that. I am against colored revolutions and crazy show rioting in the streets.
Yes parliment is good,tho maybe these people who street protest feel they're not being heard.Theres nothing wrong with street protesting,its actually quite healthy in a Democracy.


I'm almost sure that these are deals of "Nashi" movement. They claim to be pro-kremlin movement, but in fact are also reactionist idiots just like skin-heads.[/QUOTE]

Paulc, you're saying "Democracy" in each line with capital letter, but i never said Russia is an exemplary (strong and healthy) democracy. I feel threat of that people because i really can't imagine what may happen to the country if it will be lead by ultra-nationalists. They don't have popular support, but still don't give up and i don't know what winds are blowing in their empty heads. I am not sure that it is possible to influence on them with the other way than they understand - force.

And again, i have nothing against peacefull and civilized manifestations.

Two things, Paul.

I don't like the idea of Russia using its oil as a political weapon but I like it a lot more than what the old Soviet Union used to do when they had a disagreement with a neighboring nation which was to send in the Red Army.

Russia is a nascent democracy. Democracy does not simply arise full blown especially in a country that has an almost unbroken history of autocratic rule stretching back to the days of the early Rus. There will be steps forward and steps backward as Russia becomes more democratic. That is to be expected.