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warrior1972
05-07-2007, 03:34 PM
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Death Penalty for Child Molesters?
Wednesday, May. 02, 2007 By HILARY HYLTON/AUSTIN The lethal injection chamber in Texas State Prison at Huntsville, Texas.
Mark Jenkinson / CorbisArticle ToolsPrintEmailReprints In the state that is the nation's undisputed death penalty leader, Texas, you might think there is no such thing as a punishment considered too harsh. But as legislators there consider joining the small but growing number of states making certain convicted pedophiles eligible for the death penalty, a surprisingly vocal group of critics has emerged, arguing that the measure is shortsighted, counterproductive and probably unconstitutional.

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"There's tough. And then there's Texas tough," Republican Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst declared at his January inauguration as he pledged to press for mandatory 25-year sentences and a two-strikes death-penalty provision for convicted child predators. The proposal is a more extreme version of the so-called " Jessica's Law " passed by the Florida legislature in the wake of the February 2005 rape and murder of nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford. That landmark statute imposed mandatory 25-year prison terms and life electronic monitoring for sex offenders, and since its passage in May 2005 42 states and Congress have implemented or are considering their own very similar laws.

Dewhurst's stance made headlines and has won him kudos from national backers of Jessica's Law such as Fox News's Bill O'Reilly and John Walsh, producer of America's Most Wanted. But it also sparked the formation of an unexpected coalition of opponents, featuring some of the state's toughest prosecutors as well as victims' rights groups, both of whom worry that the measure could backfire and result in fewer convictions.

"We saw the tsunami wave coming to Texas," said Shannon Edmonds, state lobbyist for the Texas District and County Attorneys Association. Last year, South Carolina adopted the death penalty for the second offense of raping a child under age 11. Oklahoma followed, passing Jessica's Law with a death penalty provision for raping a child under age 14. Texas already had some of the toughest child predator laws on the books with its two-strikes rule that sends child predators to jail for life. But the push for even harsher punishment was coming from the state leadership, rather than from the grass roots, as tightening of criminal laws often does. "Prosecutors will tell you these are the most difficult cases to get a guilty verdict on," Edmonds said. "Prosecutors lose more of these cases than any other."

The Texas Association Against Sexual Assault also voiced its concerns about "unintended consequences" of Jessica's Laws. The mandatory sentences can backfire, said TAASA spokeswoman Karen Amacher, as prosecutors lose the flexibility to seek lesser sentences in cases where a jury trial may prove too taxing for a child witness, or a jury or judge may not feel a 25-year sentence is warranted. Since an estimated 80% of child sexual assaults are committed by family members, groups like Amacher's are concerned that mandatory sentence laws, not to mention the death penalty, might dissuade certain people from reporting abuse to authorities. "With sex offenders we want to say let's lock them up and throw away the key — these folks are just awful, after all — but it's just not realistic," Amacher said.

Even avowed supporters of the death penalty in murder cases think the Texas proposal would be a bad idea. "If you give the same sentence for molesting a little girl as for molesting and killing a little girl, it seems an incentive to go ahead and kill her," said Michael Rushford, head of the pro-death penalty Criminal Justice Legal Foundation in Sacramento, Calif.

Legal scholars from both sides of the political spectrum have warned Texas legislators the death penalty for repeat sex offenders would likely be declared unconstitutional. In 1977 the Supreme Court ruled in Coker vs. Georgia that the death penalty in rape cases was cruel and unusual punishment. Nevertheless, several states have retained old laws providing the death penalty for rape of minors — including Florida, Montana and Louisiana. Only one state, Louisiana, currently has someone on death row charged with raping a child: Patrick O. Kennedy, who faces the death penalty after being convicted in 2003 of raping an eight-year-old. His case is being appealed and could make its way to the Supreme Court, according to Richard Dieter, head of the Death Penalty Information Center.

Even so, prosecutors aren't willing to sit and wait for the highest court in the land to sort it all out. Instead, district attorneys around the state told the legislature that what they really needed were more tools to win cases, not limits on their choices. Working in committee, prosecutors and victims' rights groups managed to include evidence rule changes that would give them more flexibility in presenting child witnesses. The 25-year mandatory-minimum requirement was fine-tuned to apply only to egregious cases such as those involving children under the age of 6 or the use of a deadly weapon. But while it is optional in the bill adopted by the Texas senate, the death penalty remains mandatory for a second offense in the House version. With overwhelming support in both houses for at least a death penalty option, it is likely some kind of capital punishment provision will survive in the final bill that is passed.

Still, if the mandatory death penalty provision for a second offense survives in the Texas bill, it would be 25 years before anyone could face that punishment. They would have to be found guilty of the first offense under the new law initially and serve the mandatory 25 years. If the Senate version with the optional death penalty survives, the politicians will surely trumpet it, but it is unlikely prosecutors would use that new tool, given the time and resources that would have to be poured into a case that would almost certainly be appealed. "I think prosecutors would wait for guidance from the Supreme Court first," Edmonds said.

Just two weeks before the Senate passed its version of Jessica's Law, two men freed on DNA testing after serving 27 years in prison between them for adult sexual assault visited the state capitol. The lone senator to vote against the bill reminded his colleagues of their visit. "At some point we have to decide where do we draw the line on something that's politically right but morally wrong," State Senator Rodney Ellis, a Houston Democrat, said as he cast his vote. "I'm for the death penalty, but I think it would be nice if we had a system where we got the right one."

moderate
05-07-2007, 04:01 PM
I'm all for the death penalty. But only for crimes that involve the death of the victim. Killing a criminal for anything less than causing the death of another is over the line.

warrior1972
05-07-2007, 04:04 PM
Yes I agree. They should be monitored and locked up but killing them is a bit extreme.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 04:33 PM
I'm all for the death penalty. But only for crimes that involve the death of the victim. Killing a criminal for anything less than causing the death of another is over the line.

Raping a child may well be the equivalent of killing another human being since if not dealt with properly the kid's life is altered and put on a different path permanently. And some kid's would be better off dead in my estimate.

I am against the death penalty in all instances but won't go into it here since Marzi and I have gone at it at length before.

My point being that "death" is subjective. If you are pro death penalty, child rape should be one of those rare instances that would justify the needle in the arm in my estimate. These predators can never be rehabilitated. Not only that, but we release them back into society. Ridiculous in the extreme. Then we compound the problem because there is no safe place for them to live.

Also the public ignorance regarding child rape or rape in general for the matter is horrendous. The general public can not grasp that rape is not about sex. They view it purely from an emotional view. No matter how one tries to inform people, they just do not understand it is about power. Thus public ignorance and their unwillingness to educate themselves about it contributes significantly to the habituation.

moderate
05-07-2007, 04:47 PM
Raping a child may well be the equivalent of killing another human being since if not dealt with properly the kid's life is altered and put on a different path permanently. And some kid's would be better off dead in my estimate.

I am against the death penalty in all instances but won't go into it here since Marzi and I have gone at it at length before.

My point being that "death" is subjective. If you are pro death penalty, child rape should be one of those rare instances that would justify the needle in the arm in my estimate. These predators can never be rehabilitated. Not only that, but we release them back into society. Ridiculous in the extreme. Then we compound the problem because there is no safe place for them to live.

Also the public ignorance regarding child rape or rape in general for the matter is horrendous. The general public can not grasp that rape is not about sex. They view it purely from an emotional view. No matter how one tries to inform people, they just do not understand it is about power. Thus public ignorance and their unwillingness to educate themselves about it contributes significantly to the habituation.

Altering someones life is a far cry from ending it. Granted, child molesters deserve their own special place, but death row is not that place.
I find death rather definite, not subjective. But then I a literal type person.

Vilepagan
05-07-2007, 04:56 PM
I'm against the death penalty period, but the best reason for not implementing it in the case of child rape was given in the article itself..."If you give the same sentence for molesting a little girl as for molesting and killing a little girl, it seems an incentive to go ahead and kill her".

500lbguerilla
05-07-2007, 05:01 PM
The Death penalty is wrong for one simple reason. What if you have the wrong person?

I certainly would hope that people aren't stupid enough to kill people on the words of a child.

Had a student who utterly craved attention. She lied about being molested. The guy had to leave the state. It was over a year before the truth was discovered.

warrior1972
05-07-2007, 05:11 PM
that makes since Vile. Also if the child knows her preditor will be killed and ithappens to be her favorite uncle or father she may not report it in fear of losing her father or uncle. She may try to protect him.

Sal Many like 70 percent cannot be rehibilitated but some are. There is a famous author who is a pediphile and he has not reoffended. He is still attracted to young teen boys but does not act on his impulses. He was on cnn. So there are some that can be helped. sadly we do not know which ones can be helped and the ones who cannot.

jerejerebinks
05-07-2007, 05:43 PM
I'm against the death penalty period, but the best reason for not implementing it in the case of child rape was given in the article itself..."If you give the same sentence for molesting a little girl as for molesting and killing a little girl, it seems an incentive to go ahead and kill her".


Good point, Vile. The only logical conclusion then is to find something worse than death.

Vilepagan
05-07-2007, 05:48 PM
The only logical conclusion then is to find something worse than death.

I'm not sure that's the only logical conclusion, or even the best one. The only thing I can think of worse than a simple execution would be a complicated execution, and that's called torture. No thanks.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 06:20 PM
I'm not sure that's the only logical conclusion, or even the best one. The only thing I can think of worse than a simple execution would be a complicated execution, and that's called torture. No thanks.
I do not speak from personal experience only from what I have been told by people that have lived in countries in which they were not free. But from what they have said to me, a lack of freedom is worse than death. They were willing to risk not only their own lives, but that of their children in order to flee the regime for a life of freedom in Canada.

I believe that because we have been born and raised in freedom we do not value it in the same way that others do who have lived in constant fear and have had to modify their behavior and been controlled by others. Thus people think incarceration is not real punishment but a life of luxury. Our understanding is limited by our ignorance and inability to understand freedom.

Put them away for life and be done with it.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 06:26 PM
Sal Many like 70 percent cannot be rehibilitated but some are. There is a famous author who is a pediphile and he has not reoffended. He is still attracted to young teen boys but does not act on his impulses. He was on cnn. So there are some that can be helped. sadly we do not know which ones can be helped and the ones who cannot.

I would question your 30% rehabilitation figure since the figures here in Canada say that at this time, we do not have enough understanding of the disease in order to alter their behavior sufficiently to trust them alone, around children ever again.

I do agree with you that no one is beyond hope and that likely some can be helped. But yeah, I would not want to gamble with a child's safety. They gave up their right to freedom on the day they inappropriately touched a child.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 06:27 PM
Good point, Vile. The only logical conclusion then is to find something worse than death.

On the contrary jere, that is not logical, but highly emotional.

Frogger
05-07-2007, 07:14 PM
As horrid as child molestation is I don't support the death penalty even for that crime.

There is a difference between someone killing a child molestor in a fit of passion and anger and the State coldly and calculatingly killing that person. I think the death penalty lessens each of us as citizens.

Lock them up with no chance of parole and that means no chance of being released not simply a long sentence. Let them die in prison but don't actively take their life.

Evakian
05-07-2007, 07:43 PM
I don't want the death penalty for my crimes! Leave me alone you fools!

Oh wait, you say you cannot molest yourself? Well I'll be, that masturbation isn't illegal after all. I have some words for the deacon this Sunday, then.

mikezila
05-07-2007, 07:46 PM
I don't want the death penalty for my crimes! Leave me alone you fools!

Oh wait, you say you cannot molest yourself? Well I'll be, that masturbation isn't illegal after all. I have some words for the deacon this Sunday, then.
it's not a crime until you get caught, and if you get caught molesting yourself you've got bigger problems than Johnny Law.:lolhit:

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 08:24 PM
it's not a crime until you get caught, and if you get caught molesting yourself you've got bigger problems than Johnny Law.:lolhit: hehe

can you say schizophrenia


and something even worse if you are wearing your purple bunny thongs Evak...

Freethinker
05-07-2007, 08:33 PM
I was thinking --"Yes, i'm for it", -- until I read the following ---

Even avowed supporters of the death penalty in murder cases think the Texas proposal would be a bad idea. "If you give the same sentence for molesting a little girl as for molesting and killing a little girl, it seems an incentive to go ahead and kill her," said Michael Rushford, head of the pro-death penalty Criminal Justice Legal Foundation in Sacramento, Calif.

He has a point.

mikezila
05-07-2007, 08:36 PM
I was thinking --"Yes, i'm for it", -- until I read the following ---



He has a point.
:eek:me too! i had even copied that paragraph and was going to quote it until i read VP's post.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 08:36 PM
I was thinking --"Yes, i'm for it", -- until I read the following ---



He has a point.

That's also the problem with the three strikes initiative. If you are doing armed robbery and get identified you may as well kill the witness and at least try to cover your crime.

mikezila
05-07-2007, 08:41 PM
That's also the problem with the three strikes initiative. If you are doing armed robbery and get identified you may as well kill the witness and at least try to cover your crime.
or not screw up, and commit the 3rd felony....robbing banks isn't a compulsion on par with molesting children.

DarkFantasy96
05-07-2007, 08:41 PM
I think that life in prison is worse than the death penalty for child molesters... The other criminals don't take too kindly to them.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 08:47 PM
or not screw up, and commit the 3rd felony....robbing banks isn't a compulsion on par with molesting children.

Actually unlike moderate, I think child molestation is quite on par with murder...so I agree with you that robbing banks or hell almost any crime other than serial murder is not on par with a pedophile.

Unfortunately once one is in the system for felony I think the rate of recidivism is high, which is why three strikes is not an effective deterrent.

mikezila
05-07-2007, 08:50 PM
Actually unlike moderate, I think child molestation is quite on par with murder...so I agree with you that robbing banks or hell almost any crime other than serial murder is not on par with a pedophile.

Unfortunately once one is in the system for felony I think the rate of recidivism is high, which is why three strikes is not an effective deterrent.
it stops them, or at least delays their 4th offense...if they're locked up, they don't have the opportunity to re-offend.

Vilepagan
05-07-2007, 08:51 PM
Unfortunately once one is in the system for felony I think the rate of recidivism is high, which is why three strikes is not an effective deterrent.

No punishment is a deterrent to a criminal who believes he won't be caught.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 08:54 PM
No punishment is a deterrent to a criminal who believes he won't be caught.

Well, good point. What criminal really truly thinks they will be caught? If they believed they would be, would they still commit the crime?

Also. I wonder how many get a high from "the risk"?

mikezila
05-07-2007, 08:56 PM
crime happens because we lie to ourselves, the biggest lie is "it'll never happen to me", the second biggest is "i'll never get caught"-Toma

MrCooper
05-07-2007, 09:03 PM
Sometimes you guys say child molester, sometimes sex offender.

There's plenty of people that are sex offenders for statutory rape. What degree of molestation needs to occur for you go get 25 years--or even death?

People who rape/rape and kill kids obviously need to disappear from society. I can't help but wonder how many of the lesser offenders can be helped with a large sentence and lots of counseling.

A year or two ago, where I live, there was a guy who killed his girlfriend's baby. Shook the baby to death. He got 1 year in prison and 5 years probation. Just earlier this year there was physical therapist that got 13 years for lewd conduct with a minor.

What's my point? I don't know.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 09:12 PM
Sometimes you guys say child molester, sometimes sex offender.

There's plenty of people that are sex offenders for statutory rape. What degree of molestation needs to occur for you go get 25 years--or even death?

People who rape/rape and kill kids obviously need to disappear from society. I can't help but wonder how many of the lesser offenders can be helped with a large sentence and lots of counseling.

A year or two ago, where I live, there was a guy who killed his girlfriend's baby. Shook the baby to death. He got 1 year in prison and 5 years probation. Just earlier this year there was physical therapist that got 13 years for lewd conduct with a minor.

What's my point? I don't know.

Well, child molester, sex offender... they are both sexual predators are they not?

Next how does one decide upon the damage done to the human psyche? It is hard to measure with an adult let alone a child.

I have heard lots of people look at young girls who wear tight, tight pants, lots of makeup and who act provocatively/suggestively way beyond their years, label them sluts. 9/10 those girls have been molested. The damage is deep and follows them in subtle or not so subtle ways for the rest of their life. How does one pay for destroying innocence even if it was "just" fondling. "Just" is not ever a word that should be used for sexual predation yet many do use it, like it can be easily swept away.

mikezila
05-07-2007, 09:23 PM
Well, child molester, sex offender... they are both sexual predators are they not?

Next how does one decide upon the damage done to the human psyche? It is hard to measure with an adult let alone a child.

I have heard lots of people look at young girls who wear tight, tight pants, lots of makeup and who act provocatively/suggestively way beyond their years, label them sluts. 9/10 those girls have been molested. The damage is deep and follows them in subtle or not so subtle ways for the rest of their life. How does one pay for destroying innocence even if it was "just" fondling. "Just" is not ever a word that should be used for sexual predation yet many do use it, like it can be easily swept away.
sex offender covers a huge range of conduct...that can include, believe it or not, urinating in public or sex in a motor vehicle...child molester is a wee more defined.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 09:36 PM
sex offender covers a huge range of conduct...that can include, believe it or not, urinating in public or sex in a motor vehicle...child molester is a wee more defined.

urinating in public... wow... I didn't know that... we need tighter definitions obviously...

mikezila
05-07-2007, 09:44 PM
urinating in public... wow... I didn't know that... we need tighter definitions obviously...
yeah! depending on the judge's mood, you might get a giggle and "go and sin no more" or 5 years and registering with the local PD because of a weak bladder.

~Sal~
05-07-2007, 09:49 PM
yeah! depending on the judge's mood, you might get a giggle and "go and sin no more" or 5 years and registering with the local PD because of a weak bladder.

See, now I just find that to be preposterous and highly irritating. No wonder some guy who has raped babies is free to live across the road from a preschool. It's because we have no balance in many cases. This all contributes in it's own tiny way to messing up everything in the justice system.

mikezila
05-07-2007, 09:58 PM
i'm thinking the judge's discretion in sentencing might not always be in the best interest of justice.

warrior1972
05-07-2007, 10:14 PM
So I have a question of a child is fondling himself is he a child molester? LOL

mikezila
05-07-2007, 11:19 PM
So I have a question of a child is fondling himself is he a child molester? LOL
YES (http://www.allforums.net/showpost.php?p=323735&postcount=15)