Nope I still don't believe the bible just because I happen to match two thing together to keep christains from being so freaked out and defensive about evolution.

again the bible condones slavery, selling woman to neighbors, stoning woman to death for being unfaithful, killing homosexuals which today we know is wrong.

If god is perfect he would not have condoned those things that today we know is immoral behavior. God never made commandment or rules against these and specically told people these things were ok.

God is not perfect and is immoral.

or you could say since the bible was inspired by god and written by people that the people who wrote down these laws misintrepreted god.

But then that leaves the whole bible discredited due to humans writting the bible wrong.

hmmm?

Scientic proof that the earth is older than 6,000 years

http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/Evolve1.html

Also read up on carbon dating. Scientic proof not theory on how old the earth layers are.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm

So you didnt read what I left?

It explains that.

Warrior, where in the Bible does it say that the earth is 6000 years old?
And where does it say that the earth is flat?

It is HIS book you know? It's not like you can pick out a handful of verses you want to believe and call thousands of other verses lies.


ALL christians do this, even those who think they don't. They ALL pick and choose.

God is not perfect and is immoral.

Again, you're holding him to HUMAN standards of behavior. He's not a human being, He's the Creator.

Just because you think He's immoral, doesn't make Him so.

And how can Someone, who you don't believe in, so He must not exist, be immoral?

Or do you believe in God?

Warrior, where in the Bible does it say that the earth is 6000 years old?
And where does it say that the earth is flat?
Ussher was the man who used the bible to date the Earth. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology)is how he did it:

Flat Earth:
In Daniel, the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth ... reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to "the earth's farthest bounds," but this is impossible on a spherical earth. -source (http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/flatearth.htm)

Ussher was the man who used the bible to date the Earth. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology)is how he did it:
From wikipedia
However, there are some biblical scholars, as well as a number of evangelical Christians, who declare their literal interpretation of the Bible and a 6000-year-old Earth
Actually a literal interpretation doesn't say how old the earth is at all. The Bible starts out with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth." That is verse one, from there, (verse 2) it says: "Now the earth was formless and empty..."
The question is; how much time passed between verse one and verse two? I don't know, the Bible doesn't say. It could be 30 seconds or a 130 billion years, or more. So one can say that some Christians teach a young earth, but the Bible does not.

Flat Earth:
In Daniel, the king "saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth ... reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to "the earth's farthest bounds," but this is impossible on a spherical earth. -source (http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/flatearth.htm)
Here's the verse:
Daniel 4:10-11 "These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous.
The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth."
The "seeing" that was taking place was a vision, a vision from God, taking place in the mind of the king, it wasn't intended to taken as literally seen or actually happening. A question: what are the ends of the earth, and what would a tree like that on the earth look like in a dream? This, in no way, suggests the author thought the world is flat.
It's interesting that anyone could have read that in context and have seen that this was a dream from God that had a particular meaning, part of which the tree represented the king. I wonder why the authors of the site you directed us to didn't catch that? Could it be that they had an agenda and would use anything to further their point, even if it wasn't honest?

A few days ago, SMW stated that she was "a God-fearing woman." I'm not trying to single you out, SMW, but this sort of talk has always bothered me. What do you have to fear from your god? Why would anyone need to be afraid of their "savior?"

Being God fearing does not mean that you are afraid of God. It is an older usage of the word fear and means to be in awe of. I am also a God fearing person. I am not at all afraid of God but I stand in awe of Him.

Awe-an emotion variously combining dread,reneration and wonder. So there must some fear in being God fearing. Even the older usage of the word fear!

It should be said in the Christian's defense that the very concept of God, if believed in, is enough to put a little fear in your heart.

It should be said in the Christian's defense that the very concept of God, if believed in, is enough to put a little fear in your heart.I've heard "wisdom begins with fear of the Lord" from a Christian before. In debate, the whole "atheists can't find god like criminals can't find cops" theme comes through in various guises.

F. de Marzipan
A few days ago, SMW stated that she was "a God-fearing woman." I'm not trying to single you out, SMW, but this sort of talk has always bothered me. What do you have to fear from your god? Why would anyone need to be afraid of their "savior?"

Being God fearing does not mean that you are afraid of God. It is an older usage of the word fear and means to be in awe of. I am also a God fearing person. I am not at all afraid of God but I stand in awe of Him.

Exactly what Frogger said, Frannie. God-fearing is an old term that I've heard all my life and it just seem to fit in the conversation in which I used it.

Doesn't mean scared... means reverent.

:)
SMW

Heard this quote over the weekend...

"Atheism is a religion like bald is a haircolor."

;)

If you say atheism is a religion your retarded.

I have never yet asked that a poster be suspended but I am close to making an exception in the case of Warrior1972. It is one thing to discuss religion including discussions of The Bible. It is quite another to call The Bible crap.

Unless Warrior1972 tones down her hateful rhetoric I suggest that the rest of us simply stop responding to her. It is one thing to discuss issues. It is another thing to be a troll.

Whether or not one believes in God is a personal issue. I can accept the fact that not everyone does. I even find it interesting sometimes to ponder atheists' attempts to 'prove' God doesn't exist.

But this Warrior1972 took things to the extreme last week and I greatly resent the fact that, while she was insulting to 80% of the world's population, I was the one called down for 'overreacting' to her rantings. I notice our atheist mod never once called her down, but allowed her to go from bad to worse as the week progressed. Very disappointing, Vile.

Unless the 'devil' makes me do it, I will not be responding to Warrior1972 either. I strongly suggest others do the same if the rhetoric starts up again.

SMW

Do you believe in evolution? Do you know that evolution was invented before Micro Bioligy? The human eye is way too complex to have just existed by chance. What about brain matter?

These things need a creator to exist.

In order for me to believe in evolution, I will need to see a real flying Turtle Dove. (Half dove and half turtle)






Sorry I don't buy any of it. I listened to it and see no proof of god just proof we cannot explain how it works yet. Just because we are ignorant of how things work or are incapable of understanding it does not mean "god" created it. If a being or beings on a highest plane of existance did great the Universe i doubt it would have been the Judeo christian from of god but many beings with intelligent working together to design the universe much like many scientist working togehter to engineer a way to get into space.
I am not saying there is not some higher form of being that could have designed the Universe or whatever. I refute that the Judeo-christian form of god was responsible for it.

Do you believe in evolution? Do you know that evolution was invented before Micro Bioligy? The human eye is way too complex to have just existed by chance. What about brain matter?

These things need a creator to exist.

In order for me to believe in evolution, I will need to see a real flying Turtle Dove. (Half dove and half turtle)

We have many flaws biologically, however. For all of our complexity, we have just as many flaws. We are not perfect biological machines created in the image of God.

"Atheism is a religion like bald is a haircolor."

;)I know atheists use that but I find it silly because because it makes atheism sound like an inadequacy. Who wants to be bald rather than have hair?

But then if you swap it round so that atheism comes out on top - "Atheism is a religion like health is a disease" - it just sounds hostile.

In order for me to believe in evolution, I will need to see a real flying Turtle Dove. (Half dove and half turtle)I know what you mean. My de-conversion happened after I saw one of those.

Watched a documentary over the weekend about Christianity vs Science. Very interesting stuff including one segment on new studies called Neuro Theology. Seems the human brain has strong reaction (that can be followed on brain scans) when one is praying... in the same area of the brain known to be active during times of high emotions. Also interesting to note that it doesn't seem to be prevalent in ALL human brains... leaving researchers to question whether there is indeed a BIOLOGICAL reason some people believe in God and others don't.

Question of evolution seems to come down to one unanswerable question -- where does the sense of 'right & wrong' come in? If we simply evolved from apes, how could we have acquired that 'humans only' trait that separates us from animals?

SMW

We are not perfect, we all will die oneday. We make mistakes, we sin.

We are created in the image of God.


We have many flaws biologically, however. For all of our complexity, we have just as many flaws. We are not perfect biological machines created in the image of God.

We are not perfect, we all will die one day. We make mistakes, we sin.

We are created in the image of God.

Heh, that statement I made kinda doesn't make sense, I said the same thing twice. Oh well it was late when I did it. Anyways...

I was under the impression that the God of the Bible is a perfect god, and we all fall short of His glory.

God is perfect. God did not choose to make man perfect.

Man also has free will. Free will can lead to problems.

Heh, that statement I made kinda doesn't make sense, I said the same thing twice. Oh well it was late when I did it. Anyways...

I was under the impression that the God of the Bible is a perfect god, and we all fall short of His glory.

God is perfect. God did not choose to make man perfect.

Man also has free will. Free will can lead to problems.

It pretty much just makes me feel like we're all a big science experiment for God.

Why would he give us free will if He loves us all, and if we use our free will and choose not to believe in Him, we go to hell?

It pretty much just makes me feel like we're all a big science experiment for God.

Why would he give us free will if He loves us all, and if we use our free will and choose not to believe in Him, we go to hell?


Why would he creat something he wants to love and not give us the option to love him back?

Why would he creat something he wants to love and not give us the option to love him back?

Why would he send us to hell if we don't unconditionally love him back?

Originally Posted by ~Sal~
That's because if there is a God, and he is all loving, and all powerful, he will have no need to punish one for the human failing of denial or confusion or even betrayal. It is illogical.
What rule of logic does it break?.
I view it as illogical because it is human to be imperfect and fail. To punish something for their inherent nature is absurd.

Also the bible says that none can come to him unless he chooses. That too is absurd and illogical. It means he has already decided who will be damned and who will not since it precludes who will accept him.

That's good if God fulfills only your requirements, but if He has requirements that are above yours, than they could only can be satisfied His way.

Correct but his way may not be the Christian way or the Muslim way nor the Jewish way. Each believe equally that their belief system is correct. And each believe that if you do not believe as they do that you are damned. Maybe all are damned or maybe none are.

Why would he send us to hell if we don't unconditionally love him back?


Doesnt actaully say what Hell is, personally I think its simply a place away from him.

Doesnt actaully say what Hell is, personally I think its simply a place away from him.


What doesn't say? The Bible? I'm pretty sure it does...

What doesn't say? The Bible? I'm pretty sure it does...

Yes the Bible. It gives a discription, but its descibing the absense of God in the only terms that it can be explained in.

I can get pretty deep if you want? lol

Give some detail, to what I think Hell is exactly.

where does the sense of 'right & wrong' come in? If we simply evolved from apes, how could we have acquired that 'humans only' trait that separates us from animals? Better question: Why do you assume only humans have said trait?

Yes the Bible. It gives a discription, but its descibing the absense of God in the only terms that it can be explained in.

I can get pretty deep if you want? lol

Give some detail, to what I think Hell is exactly.

In addition to being separated from God:
"The books of Matthew, Mark, and Jude tell of a place of fire, while the books of Luke and Revelation report it as an abyss. Also, Revelation 20:10 (NIV) illustrates Hell as a "lake with burning sulfur".

That came from Wikipedia.

I'm pretty sure the Christian view of Hell is a place of fire and brimstone. I mean just read Revelations again, thats pretty much hell on Earth right there.

It shouldl be remembered that The Bible is attempting to describe an undescribable place to a basically illiterate people. In order to do so images with which the people would be familiar are used.

Hell is often referred to as Gehenna. Gehenna was the communal garbage dump of the city of Jerusalem. It was a place of corruption that would make Jews ritually unclean and that they tried to avoid if at all possible.

Other images used are a bottomless pit, fire and brimstone (sulphur), eternal darkness. Deep pits were sometimes used as a form of punishment for especially heinous crimes. The criminal was thrown into a deep pit and eithe allowed to starve to death or kept alive to wallow in his own filth and ordure. Brimstone, or sulphur was basically an unquenchable fire which once ignited tended to burn and give off noxious and dangerous fumes. In the days before modern lighting darkness was far more pervasive. Anything outside the small ring of light available to ancient man was scarey.

Hell is perceived differently by different people but it is basically being away from the presence of God.

In addition to being separated from God:
"The books of Matthew, Mark, and Jude tell of a place of fire, while the books of Luke and Revelation report it as an abyss. Also, Revelation 20:10 (NIV) illustrates Hell as a "lake with burning sulfur".

That came from Wikipedia.

I'm pretty sure the Christian view of Hell is a place of fire and brimstone. I mean just read Revelations again, thats pretty much hell on Earth right there.


Actaully its a topic of debate among Christians. Frogger gave a description that if viewed a little differently then what he left it for describes the bases of some of that debate.
I think he and I might be close to the same thing though.

I need to use personal experience to help explain my image of it.
Have you been dumped by your first true love? If so, you probably
learned a little from it and even changed your view of life some what or at least it does to most people.
It's an understanding through heartship type of thing.

Take that understanding and the emotions that come with it and make it 100 times worse.
Thats what I think it will feel like for someone to realise they'er absent of God.

So, you get the down right nasty description, of brimstone and fire. Which also adds to that description, another description of darkness.
Which is in the bible. The description of darkness. Not the first love thing I said. When the two are combined, you get an image of a feelling of very bad despair.

Actaully its a topic of debate among Christians. Frogger gave a description that if viewed a little differently then what he left it for describes the bases of some of that debate.
I think he and I might be close to the same thing though.

I need to use personal experience to help explain my image of it.
Have you been dumped by your first true love? If so, you probably
learned a little from it and even changed your view of life some what or at least it does to most people.
It's an understanding through heartship type of thing.

Take that understanding and the emotions that come with it and make it 100 times worse.
Thats what I think it will feel like for someone to realise they'er absent of God.

So, you get the down right nasty description, of brimstone and fire. Which also adds to that description, another description of darkness.
Which is in the bible. The description of darkness. Not the first love thing I said. When the two are combined, you get an image of a feelling of very bad despair.
And like your analogy, you believe it is God himself who is going to dump you. Is that correct? Because on the one hand Christians say God is all loving... but then add (of course only if you believe in the manner in which I do). Otherwise he is going to dump your ass into a lake of fire where you will burn with most of the rest of the population of the world for eternity.

Also on the one hand Christians claim a unique bonding with God by saying they can act like crap to other people; cruel, unaccepting and intolerant but God will forgive them because they think Christ is the Son of God. Even though the bible says the greatest gift of the spirit is love there sure is a lot of hate out there that God is only mildly going to punish you for. Is that correct?

Also the only thing in the bible that is unforgivable is a sin against "the Spirit". Sounds damn close to cruelty to me. I think if there is a Christian God of lot of Christians better examine themselves fast cause they may get a hell of a shocker upon death.

I've done the walk Inviolabe, and God is not that narrow. And I believe that just as strongly as the so called prophesing Christians think he is.

Sounds like atheists are banking on the fact that IF there is a God, he's so loving and forgiving that he'll spare them from going to hell even though they turn their backs on him, commit blasphemy and encourage others to do the same.

Good luck on that notion.

SMW

And like your analogy, you believe it is God himself who is going to dump you. Is that correct? Because on the one hand Christians say God is all loving... but then add (of course only if you believe in the manner in which I do). Otherwise he is going to dump your ass into a lake of fire where you will burn with most of the rest of the population of the world for eternity.

Thats not how I see it exactly, no.
I believe there is only one thing anyone needs to do to be a Christian.
Believe Jesus is who he said he is and ask him for forgiveness.
I'm not baptist or methodist, or catholic, or Lutheran. I'm a Protestant but only because its the only way to say I am non-denominational.
If someone cant do that one thing, then they have turned their back on God.
So in that way, I guess its like you said.

Also on the one hand Christians claim a unique bonding with God by saying they can act like crap to other people; cruel, unaccepting and intolerant but God will forgive them because they think Christ is the Son of God. Even though the bible says the greatest gift of the spirit is love there sure is a lot of hate out there that God is only mildly going to punish you for. Is that correct?
I see a lot of Christians who are very compassionate, I will admit there are Christians that act the way you said here. But thats life. There are people like that every where.
I dont think God is resposible for the punishment. Neither is it mild, God is life, missing out on God is the same as death. Thats hell.

Also the only thing in the bible that is unforgivable is a sin against "the Spirit". Sounds damn close to cruelty to me. I think if there is a Christian God of lot of Christians better examine themselves fast cause they may get a hell of a shocker upon death.

I've done the walk Inviolabe, and God is not that narrow. And I believe that just as strongly as the so called prophesing Christians think he is.

I'm sure a lot of them do.

I see a lot of Christians who are very compassionate, I will admit there are Christians that act the way you said here. There are many compassionate Christians out there yes. My partner, a right wing evangelical is one of them. He has one of the best human spirits of anyone I have met. It/he is not of the majority however. When I was Christian I held myself to a higher standard since I believed it was what God desired. That I be the best I could be and let everyone else look after themselves for he says: judge not as even Christ says he did not come to judge.

If people could live as Christ did, we could heal the world. But as long as people feel better than, or behave like satanic evangelists that will never happen.


But thats life. There are people like that every where. There are Inviolable, I just no longer believe they get a free pass in this life or the next. We draw to us what we give out, but then I believe we have chosen our personal path before we arrive here sort of like our own journey writer.
I dont think God is resposible for the punishment. Neither is it mild, God is life, missing out on God is the same as death. Thats hell.

You have an interesting perspective for a Christian, it is much like mine was. You also have a gentleness of spirit that is apparent even through a post. Now I would say, separation from self is hell on earth and most people live that way separated from themselves and motivated and controlled mostly by self imposed fear.


I took a few psychology of religion courses long ago and far away. One of the more interesting aspects of people's belief system is that the view they embrace of God is quite often parallel to that of their father.

Fire and brimstone begets fire and brimstone. Love and compassion begets that also. It makes sense that our vision of God must be limited by what we know and have experienced on an individual level. Thus we are inherently limited. Some more than others. Inequality even with regard to our personal God.

Here's what I have to say to those of you who are constantly talking about how God is all loving but he will not let everyone into Heaven.

Ask yourself this...Have you ever loved someone but knew you shouldn't be with that person?? I know I have and was smart enough to let them go. It's in a sense the same thing. God loves everyone but in the end he knows he shouldn't be with everyone.

umm not living with someone or having them around is different then sending them to a place like hell where you are burned and tortured to death for eternaty.

TOUGH LOVE????

cruel and unusual punishment me thinks and a little sadistic but I guess we deserve it since are bad children.

i mean if my children break the rules of my house not only do I kick them out I send them to the middle east to be beheaded by al queda.

umm not living with someone or having them around is different then sending them to a place like hell where you are burned and tortured to death for eternaty.

TOUGH LOVE????

cruel and unusual punishment me thinks and a little sadistic but I guess we deserve it since are bad children.

i mean if my children break the rules of my house not only do I kick them out I send them to the middle east to be beheaded by al queda.


You have too much time on your hands. All you do is read into everything and make it negative. It only makes me feel sorry for you and those around you. And making a point or arguing what someone believes is just not necessary around you.

Therefore...have fun in your negativity.


:drive:

funny how religious fantics always fold when confronted with a logical debate about something illogical that they believe in.

LOL

funny how religious fantics always fold when confronted with a logical debate about something illogical that they believe in.

LOL

I wouldn't call that folding. It's called 'nevermind'.....some people will never get it, so why bother? From reading these posts, I've not seen a logical debate from you, just twisting and turning to suit your obsessive arguments.

Believing in God does not make a person a religious fanatic, either.

Have a nice day.

:)
Kimi

if only all of you would get that point! "never mind" and leave us the hell alone with your god propaganda the world would be a much more peaceful place.

funny how religious fantics always fold when confronted with a logical debate about something illogical that they believe in.

LOL

You mean like believing in the Tree and
Rock god/goddess, "Goddess"?



OOps, better QUIT now. ........don't want to be "bested" like I was in the "We Stole Land From the Indians" thread.

I am a wiccan/agnostic. I practice witchcraft because I believe sending out positive or negative thoughts effect people and things that is a power within me. I do not however believe in a goddess or god. I do not bow to any supreme being. I simply feel they have no need for to worship them, honor them or defend them. Gods are quite capable of defending themselves if the so choose or desire.

I practice witchcraft because I believe sending out positive or negative thoughts effect people and things that is a power within me. .


Whatever you say, Glenda.

Glenda was a good witch thanks for the compliment.

Well, I coulda called you the Witch of the West but don't want you to steal my ruby slippers.

so you like to dress up in girls clothing?

if only all of you would get that point! "never mind" and leave us the hell alone with your god propaganda the world would be a much more peaceful place.


Once again, believing in God and saying so ON A PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD, is not spreading propaganda, any more than you saying you practice witchcraft. You jump in to these discussions with your spewing and bad-mouthing of people who believe in God, but you sure can't take it when your beliefs are questioned.

As a matter of fact, yes, I do like to dress in girls' clothing, seeing as how I AM a girl.

As a matter of fact, yes, I do like to dress in girls' clothing, seeing as how I AM a girl.


:)

kimi, we better be nice to warrior, or she'll turn us into toads AND steal my ruby slippers.

As a matter of fact, yes, I do like to dress in girls' clothing, seeing as how I AM a girl.


She gets confused like she does about everything else. Does she wear girl's clothing? Or did she give up clothing when she found out she evolved from an ape?

kimi, we better be nice to warrior, or she'll turn us into toads AND steal my ruby slippers.

Oh no! Not your ruby slippers!!

Besides, nice is as nice does....she believes that what you put out there is what you get back, and on that point, I agree with her. That's why I cock my head sideways in confusion when I read some of her posts.....there should be some sort of law against contradicting one's self, don't you think?

"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity." Unknown, Hanlon's Razor

And like your analogy, you believe it is God himself who is going to dump you. Is that correct? Because on the one hand Christians say God is all loving... but then add (of course only if you believe in the manner in which I do). Otherwise he is going to dump your ass into a lake of fire where you will burn with most of the rest of the population of the world for eternity.

Also on the one hand Christians claim a unique bonding with God by saying they can act like crap to other people; cruel, unaccepting and intolerant but God will forgive them because they think Christ is the Son of God. Even though the bible says the greatest gift of the spirit is love there sure is a lot of hate out there that God is only mildly going to punish you for. Is that correct?

Also the only thing in the bible that is unforgivable is a sin against "the Spirit". Sounds damn close to cruelty to me. I think if there is a Christian God of lot of Christians better examine themselves fast cause they may get a hell of a shocker upon death.

I've done the walk Inviolabe, and God is not that narrow. And I believe that just as strongly as the so called prophesing Christians think he is.

You really don't have a very good understanding of Christianity, Sal.

The fact that God loves us doesn't mean he won't punish us any more than a parent loving a child means the parent won't punish that child. It is not God condeming some of us to hell, it is we ourselves who do that. God offers a way to not go to hell. All we have to do is accept it.

Christians do not say they can act like crap and God will forgive them because they believe Jesus is the son of God. Christians say that man is fallible and prone to sin but that if we sincerely repent of our sins and ask God to forgive them he will do so. That is not the same as saying we have some sort of free pass to heaven.

You seem to be searching for a god who has no requirements, demands nothing of you and who brings you candy and roses every day. Good luck in your search.

You really don't have a very good understanding of Christianity, Sal.

The fact that God loves us doesn't mean he won't punish us any more than a parent loving a child means the parent won't punish that child. It is not God condeming some of us to hell, it is we ourselves who do that. God offers a way to not go to hell. All we have to do is accept it.

Christians do not say they can act like crap and God will forgive them because they believe Jesus is the son of God. Christians say that man is fallible and prone to sin but that if we sincerely repent of our sins and ask God to forgive them he will do so. That is not the same as saying we have some sort of free pass to heaven.

You seem to be searching for a god who has no requirements, demands nothing of you and who brings you candy and roses every day. Good luck in your search.
I think the problem for a lot of people is not the idea that god punishes, but the judgments made by god. When a believer does not understand why a punishment is made, he/she simply has faith that it was just because god is always just, regardless of whether the punishment makes sense when judging by our understanding and common sense. To a lot of people, god's justice only means something if it can be understood by the generally accepted morals and practices of the current human society. I think that's a reasonable stance to take.

I think the problem for a lot of people is not the idea that god punishes, but the judgments made by god. When a believer does not understand why a punishment is made, he/she simply has faith that it was just because god is always just, regardless of whether the punishment makes sense when judging by our understanding and common sense. To a lot of people, god's justice only means something if it can be understood by the generally accepted morals and practices of the current human society. I think that's a reasonable stance to take.

Well said.

You really don't have a very good understanding of Christianity, Sal. You certainly may be right there Frogger or you may be completely wrong as it seems completely subjective except for a few definite rules. Even the Christians on this thread are wide spread in their behaviour toward others and what they deem acceptable as evidenced by their posts.

The fact that God loves us doesn't mean he won't punish us any more than a parent loving a child means the parent won't punish that child. It is not God condemning some of us to hell, it is we ourselves who do that. God offers a way to not go to hell. All we have to do is accept it.
Yes, it is the degree of punishment though isn't it.


Christians do not say they can act like crap and God will forgive them because they believe Jesus is the son of God. Christians say that man is fallible and prone to sin but that if we sincerely repent of our sins and ask God to forgive them he will do so. That is not the same as saying we have some sort of free pass to heaven. Do you not have a free pass to heaven Frogger if you accept Christ as your personal saviour? Are you saying that is incorrect?


You seem to be searching for a god who has no requirements, demands nothing of you and who brings you candy and roses every day. Good luck in your search Frogger you are misinterpreting if you believe my posts here are a search for personal fulfilment with a higher power. I have made that clear in many posts that I have searched internally for many years and am quite happy with my belief structure.

And the paternalism at the end of your post was unnecessary and uncalled for. Because I do not embrace your system does not mean it is less than yours or unworthy.

And you shall know them by the fruit they bare....

Once again, believing in God and saying so ON A PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD, is not spreading propaganda, any more than you saying you practice witchcraft. You jump in to these discussions with your spewing and bad-mouthing of people who believe in God, but you sure can't take it when your beliefs are questioned.


It is propaganda when you say god is a loving god because it is proven he is not that he is a vengeful jeoulous god and if you don't do what he wants he smites you and send you to hell. So yes it is propaganda to try to tell people he is a loving god because it is not the truth.

I would never have a problem with Christianity if they would stop calling atheist and agnostics unethical and lack morals. If people actually followed Jesus instead of being assholes to everyone I wouldn't have a problem with christianity but the truth is 80 percent of christians do not follow christ and are money grubbing,gossipping, judging, hypocrites.

I never said I couldn't take it but when someone belittles me because they are putting thier religion above mine I am going to do the same.

Don't like it perhaps you shouldn't go around demeaning other peoples idea and concepts such as evolution and maybe christianity wouldn't be under attack.

As a matter of fact, yes, I do like to dress in girls' clothing, seeing as how I AM a girl.

Well your name doesn't exactly have M or F by it so I can tell what the fuck you are!

She gets confused like she does about everything else. Does she wear girl's clothing? Or did she give up clothing when she found out she evolved from an ape?

yes another stab at evolution. Denying the truth is a christians way. Deny what is in the bible about god being a mass murder and deny science.

:upyours:

She gets confused like she does about everything else. Does she wear girl's clothing? Or did she give up clothing when she found out she evolved from an ape?

Are you sure evolved is the right word?

oh shut up frogger and stop being a satanist in christians clothing.

If I give you a banana will you go away.

I will not go away frogger no matter how much you try your republican bribes on me.
Get over it not everyone loves christianity or is sucker for it's text.

Here ya go, Warrior. Reach for the banana. Reach a little higher. Here ya go. Good girl, Warrior.

oh shove the banana up your butt never know maybe your a homosexual and you will like it. :)

It is propaganda when you say god is a loving god because it is proven he is not that he is a vengeful jeoulous god and if you don't do what he wants he smites you and send you to hell. So yes it is propaganda to try to tell people he is a loving god because it is not the truth.

I would never have a problem with Christianity if they would stop calling atheist and agnostics unethical and lack morals. If people actually followed Jesus instead of being assholes to everyone I wouldn't have a problem with christianity but the truth is 80 percent of christians do not follow christ and are money grubbing,gossipping, judging, hypocrites.

I never said I couldn't take it but when someone belittles me because they are putting thier religion above mine I am going to do the same.

Don't like it perhaps you shouldn't go around demeaning other peoples idea and concepts such as evolution and maybe christianity wouldn't be under attack.


I never said any of those things. I said just because someone states their belief in God, it is not spreading propaganda. I'm not an asshole to anybody. I believe in the Golden Rule. You are the one who lashes out and resorts to name-calling (see your post here). I do not practice any religion, but I believe in the Spirit. It's spirituality, not religion. Religion screws everybody up.

http://http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/godsandmen/religion%20ani%20gifs/the-hand-of-god.gif

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/godsandmen/religion%20ani%20gifs/the-hand-of-god.gif

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/godsandmen/religion%20ani%20gifs/the-hand-of-god.gif


OW! :lolhit:

Roflmao!!

I never said any of those things. I said just because someone states their belief in God, it is not spreading propaganda. I'm not an asshole to anybody. I believe in the Golden Rule. You are the one who lashes out and resorts to name-calling (see your post here). I do not practice any religion, but I believe in the Spirit. It's spirituality, not religion. Religion screws everybody up.

I said 80 percent. I never said you personally were that 80 percent. You included yourself in that group. I never said your name.

I did not say all christians are like this just a large majority.

Roflmao!!

Please don't laugh your ass off, Warrior. If you did you would decapitate yourself.

funny how religious fantics always fold when confronted with a logical debate about something illogical that they believe in.

LOL

Is that what I do warrior? Do I fold when you confront me with something you think is a contradiction?

"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis" Sigmund Freud
Warrior, does this quote, from Sigmund Freud, apply to you, since you are a practitioner of the Wiccan religion?
Or does it only apply to Christians?

Is that what I do warrior? Do I fold when you confront me with something you think is a contradiction?

I don't know do you consider yourself a religous fanatic??

I don't know do you consider yourself a religous fanatic??
I most certainly do...I was under the impression that anyone reading my post would assume that I am a fanatic for Christ.

Warrior, does this quote, from Sigmund Freud, apply to you, since you are a practitioner of the Wiccan religion?
Or does it only apply to Christians?

defintion of religion
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

So wiccan/agnostic might fall in that catagory. I guess it depends on how ritualistic I am which is nothing. I do not practice witchcraft I just believe that woman can be the highest authority possible and believe that negative and positive feeling you put out in the world effect other people and things.

look my husband believes in Jesus and god but he is not religious. He does not go to church and does not go and try to save other peoples soul.
I believe in some of the practices of wiccas but I am not religious.

I most certainly do...I was under the impression that anyone reading my post would assume that I am a fanatic for Christ.

hmm 99 pecent of the religious fanatic fold when thier illogical comments are refuted by logical statements.
ther other 1 percent annoy you to death with nonsense circle concepts.

:lolhit:

There are many compassionate Christians out there yes. My partner, a right wing evangelical is one of them. He has one of the best human spirits of anyone I have met. It/he is not of the majority however. When I was Christian I held myself to a higher standard since I believed it was what God desired. That I be the best I could be and let everyone else look after themselves for he says: judge not as even Christ says he did not come to judge.

If people could live as Christ did, we could heal the world. But as long as people feel better than, or behave like satanic evangelists that will never happen.


There are Inviolable, I just no longer believe they get a free pass in this life or the next. We draw to us what we give out, but then I believe we have chosen our personal path before we arrive here sort of like our own journey writer.


You have an interesting perspective for a Christian, it is much like mine was. You also have a gentleness of spirit that is apparent even through a post. Now I would say, separation from self is hell on earth and most people live that way separated from themselves and motivated and controlled mostly by self imposed fear.


I took a few psychology of religion courses long ago and far away. One of the more interesting aspects of people's belief system is that the view they embrace of God is quite often parallel to that of their father.

Fire and brimstone begets fire and brimstone. Love and compassion begets that also. It makes sense that our vision of God must be limited by what we know and have experienced on an individual level. Thus we are inherently limited. Some more than others. Inequality even with regard to our personal God.


Makes me want to tell you about the first time I felt the Holy Spirit.

I was in a chruch, "cant even remember the name of the church" warming up from the cold. Not even listening to the Preacher, looking at the windows and wondering how much the place cost and admiring the heat.
Sitting among the church goers of course. Im sure you've been that way before, in your own little zone. Not even aware of whats around you.
The preachers voice was just part of the back ground noise.
When a sentence the preacher spoke resinated, it caught my attention unwillingly. I cant tell you what he said. I can tell you what he was talking about, but not the words he used.
All the other thoughts I was having went away.
The preacher became the zone I was in.
Has he spoke my eyes began to tear up. All I could see was a blur.
I setteled down into my seat, surrounded by strangers, I didnt know what was going on.
I felt this overwhelming sensation that I belonged to God.
I whispered, Jesus, please forgive me.
Thats when the tears decided to fall down my cheak and I could see the preacher looking at me and smiling, tears on his face as well.

I had 50 dollars to my name and I knew it didnt matter what I did as long as I used it to make people happy, I would be ok.
At the time I smoked, still do every now and then. I made my way to the homeless shelter, near by and sparked up a conversation with the people standing out side.
It wasnt about God, oddly.
It was about them. I offered them cigarettes while I listened to their problems. Smiling the whole time and it seemed as if that smile was a virus.
Everyone was catching it.
Soon I had roughly 15 or 20 people around me all of them forgetting where they were and just being happy.
I guess it helped to draw a crowd that I was passing out smokes and pop.

I had so much joy. Its the only way to describe it "joy", it just leaped from me.
I wanted to share it with the world.
I just want God.

Thats the picture I get of Jesus. It just leaped from him.

It hurts to see people mock him, to mock that. So, I'm sure there are rude Christians out there. I get pretty mad myself.

I most certainly do...I was under the impression that anyone reading my post would assume that I am a fanatic for Christ.

I don't know that "unreasoning" or "insane" are descriptors I would want to be associated with.

fa·nat·ic (fə-nāt'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
n. A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

fanatic

c.1525, "insane person," from L. fanaticus "mad, enthusiastic, inspired by a god," originally, "pertaining to a temple," from fanum "temple," related to festus "festive" (see feast). Current sense of "extremely zealous," especially in religion, is first attested 1647. The noun is from 1650, originally in religious sense, of Nonconformists.

Buddhist would call what you felt enlightenment. Seculars call it euphoria.

hmm 99 pecent of the religious fanatic fold when thier illogical comments are refuted by logical statements.
ther other 1 percent annoy you to death with nonsense circle concepts.

:lolhit:
Do I do that?
Would you, paste one of my "nonsense circle concepts" in here and explain how it actually fulfills the requirements for a "nonsense circle concept"?

Buddhist would call what you felt enlightenment. Seculars call it euphoria.

I can honestly say, if we all stayed in a lapse of euphoria, the world would be a better place.

Makes me want to tell you about the first time I felt the Holy Spirit.

I was in a chruch, "cant even remember the name of the church" warming up from the cold. Not even listening to the Preacher, looking at the windows and wondering how much the place cost and admiring the heat.
Sitting among the church goers of course. Im sure you've been that way before, in your own little zone. Not even aware of whats around you.
The preachers voice was just part of the back ground noise.
When a sentence the preacher spoke resinated, it caught my attention unwillingly. I cant tell you what he said. I can tell you what he was talking about, but not the words he used.
All the other thoughts I was having went away.
The preacher became the zone I was in.
Has he spoke my eyes began to tear up. All I could see was a blur.
I setteled down into my seat, surrounded by strangers, I didnt know what was going on.
I felt this overwhelming sensation that I belonged to God.
I whispered, Jesus, please forgive me.
Thats when the tears decided to fall down my cheak and I could see the preacher looking at me and smiling, tears on his face as well.

I had 50 dollars to my name and I knew it didnt matter what I did as long as I used it to make people happy, I would be ok.
At the time I smoked, still do every now and then. I made my way to the homeless shelter, near by and sparked up a conversation with the people standing out side.
It wasnt about God, oddly.
It was about them. I offered them cigarettes while I listened to their problems. Smiling the whole time and it seemed as if that smile was a virus.
Everyone was catching it.
Soon I had roughly 15 or 20 people around me all of them forgetting where they were and just being happy.
I guess it helped to draw a crowd that I was passing out smokes and pop.

I had so much joy. Its the only way to describe it "joy", it just leaped from me.
I wanted to share it with the world.
I just want God.

Thats the picture I get of Jesus. It just leaped from him.

It hurts to see people mock him, to mock that. So, I'm sure there are rude Christians out there. I get pretty mad myself.

Thanks for sharing what was apparently a profound and meaningful personal experience. If I may, I'd like to ask a few questions.

If someone had told you of a similar experience that they had prior to your own experience, what effect do you think their tale would have had on you?

At what point during your experience did it become clear to you that you were feeling the "holy spirit", as opposed to some more mundane explanation for your emotional state?

Is there any practical way to assist another so that they may experience this as well?

I had so much joy. Its the only way to describe it "joy", it just leaped from me.
I wanted to share it with the world.
I just want God.

Thanks for sharing that Inviolabe. A wonderful experience that changed your life and the ripple is felt I think quite literally, world wide. I think you will know what I mean by that.

When we find that joy and love and positive feeling about life, and ourselves or others the best thing we can do is to share it. I truly do believe that it resonates out like a stone thrown into a pond.

I can honestly say, if we all stayed in a lapse of euphoria, the world would be a better place.

Well I would like to think that humans would be content with this but the reality is they are not.
For example I like conflict this is why I go to debate message boards because of the friction. It motivates me and energizes me and keeps me alive. I need a lot of stimulation.
I have tried to go to a path of buddhism to find peace and enlightment and personally it is boring plus I am not good at concentrating on one thought for like 10-20 minutes.
I like what Mr. Smith said from the Matrix that a perfect world does not make humans happy and they reject it. We have lived in a world of suffering for so long we would reject and knee jerk to a perfect place like heaven. I also agree with Mr. Smith that humans are a virus infecting everything that they do not create equalibruim with our environment we feed of the natural resources until it is all used up and then spread to others parts of the world and do the same thing. We are sucking the life out of the planet earth. We are infact a parasite just really smarts ones.

I think humans secretly like fighting with each other. I think they will find any reason to discriminate against a fellow human whether it is you income level, race, gender, religion, sexual oriention and political stance. I mean once we make one off limits 10 more pop up. It is like we have to find a way to make ourselves better and more unique than another group.

Perhaps we can make a happy pill for everyone so that everyone just gets along but I am sure people would be bored to tears. LOL.

If someone had told you of a similar experience that they had prior to your own experience, what effect do you think their tale would have had on you?
You mean if someone had said what I did here, to me before I was a Christian?
Honestly, I would have thought they were in a hippy cult or something.

At what point during your experience did it become clear to you that you were feeling the "holy spirit", as opposed to some more mundane explanation for your emotional state?
From the start I knew it was God, I just didnt understand it until I was 3 or 4 minutes into the feelling.
So I knew it was God, I didnt know it was the Holy Spirit right away. By the time I left the church I did.

Is there any practical way to assist another so that they may experience this as well?
I wish. Its entirely up to the person and as you know, it doesnt sound rational.
Wanting the world to be happy, sounds completely sain to me. But that isnt the point, sadly.

Also Involiable the closet I ever felt to Jesus is when moderate christians practice tolerance,compassion and understanding. They glowed with inner happiness because they truly loved others without judgment. I never felt so far from him is when someone is telling me I am going to hell for blasmaphy and telling me that evolution is crap.
What Christians don't realize is that you get more with honey than with vinegar. If someone says something bad about the bible or god treat them like an equal and say " I am sorry you feel that way" and maybe even offer them a hug or help them out moving or help them with a need with no strings attached.
I use to hate all christians till I met a few moderates like this than I realized not all christians are bad and I learned the moderates from the extremist or christians supremisist. I even considered christianity when I was shown love, compassion and tolerance dispite my beliefs and defiance of god but everytime I consider it I run into someone who says evolution is crap and laugh at the thought of us being related to monkey and I simply do not want to be assocaited with someone who denys pure logic and fact. Fact that Chimpazee DNA is 98 percent of ours. I want to believe in Jesus but not at the expense to lose my comment sense.

I don't know that "unreasoning" or "insane" are descriptors I would want to be associated with.
Oh...I see...that does put me in a rather bad light.
I think you stone cold got me on that one dharmabum.
Maybe I'll just take the "tic" part off, and go with; Fan for Christ.

Oh...I see...that does put me in a rather bad light.
I think you stone cold got me on that one dharmabum.
Maybe I'll just take the "tic" part off, and go with; Fan for Christ.

I am also a great fan of Christ. :)

Christ was a good guy. I have nothing bad to say about the guy. I do not know if I believe he is the son of god but I would listen to his lectures.

You mean if someone had said what I did here, to me before I was a Christian?
Honestly, I would have thought they were in a hippy cult or something.

Fair enough. :)


From the start I knew it was God, I just didnt understand it until I was 3 or 4 minutes into the feelling.
So I knew it was God, I didnt know it was the Holy Spirit right away. By the time I left the church I did.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?


I wish. Its entirely up to the person and as you know, it doesnt sound rational.
Wanting the world to be happy, sounds completely sain to me. But that isnt the point, sadly.

There's nothing at all wrong with that wish.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?


God explained it to me.

God explained it to me.

Please understand that I'm genuinely curious and I mean no offense by my questions.

How did God communicate with you?