Let's hear the critical analysis. All I'm seeing is ranting by some people. I'm not hearing any reasoned logical discussions.
I don't think I ranted so far on this thread. I'm not interested in a dicussion of Christian apologetics at this time (maybe some other time), nor its criticisms. I just wanted to point out the fact that you might like your C.S.Lewis quote or even Mere Christianity, but it's not appealing to many people, myself included. For a starting point, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis#Criticism

Even better, you could go to my earlier topic which I had great interest in, the theoricy thread: http://allforums.net/showthread.php?t=26036 Feel free to read the article that links to it and reply to the topic if you want, it is related to absolute morality.

Hey, it's not like you were trying to prove anything by providing this quote, so I don't see what's to be upset about if I don't like it.

I don't think I ranted so far on this thread. I'm not interested in a dicussion of Christian apologetics at this time (maybe some other time), nor its criticisms. I just wanted to point out the fact that you might like your C.S.Lewis quote or even Mere Christianity, but it's not appealing to many people, myself included. For a starting point, go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis#Criticism

Even better, you could go to my earlier topic which I had great interest in, the theoricy thread: http://allforums.net/showthread.php?t=26036 Feel free to read the article that links to it and reply to the topic if you want, it is related to absolute morality.

Hey, it's not like you were trying to prove anything by providing this quote, so I don't see what's to be upset about if I don't like it.

I'll check out those links. I don't have much faith in all of wikipedia (get it? hee) but it is a starting point.

I'll check out those links. I don't have much faith in all of wikipedia (get it? hee) but it is a starting point.
I love wikipedia. There are bad articles but very few, and they do a good job monitoring it. This might change your opinion of wikipedia: http://news.com.com/Study+Wikipedia+as+accurate+as+Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

I'm not arguing with you about the bible says... my only concern is that YOU believe what's in the bible... but not in God.

Do you not understand how illogical that is?

It is not that I believe that happening. My point is that you do and you still follow this guy around?

Why do you follow around a maniac and listen to his every word.

If I believed in god I would be following him around. IF I was against god I would be a satanist.

My point to posted the stuff in the old testiment to try and understand why the people who DO BELIEVE!! follow him around?? following him around is condoning his behavior???

Do you condone god killing people for no valid reason??

Why do you call Scientologist cults when you do not believe in what they believe??

so by what you are saying. Woman should be stoned to death for getting pregnant after being raped? That is a sin in the old testiment? How about putting homosexuals to death? God commanded that we put homosexuals to death if they get caught sleeping together. People working on Sunday is a sin. People eating shellfish is a sin.
but then all that suddenly changes in the new testiment. Why did god change is mind? if he is perfect? Why say one thing if you are perfect and then correct yourself.
The difference between God in the Old Testament and God in the New Testament is a difference in covenants, not a correction of Himself.
In the Old Testament we see God setting up a nation, (the Jewish nation), a nation that was to represent Him to all the other people in the world. God, being a perfect God, had to be represented perfectly, so you see him giving detailed instructions to "His people." You see instructions on building the temple; so high no higher, so wide no wider, use this wood, this stone, this material. There were also dietary laws, some food was forbidden, some allowed. There were also rules on conduct for the people to represent Him perfectly, and rules to punish those of His people who disobeyed Him by doing things like working on the Sabbath. He made a covenant with His people which was basically do as He says they will be blessed, disobey Him and start worshipping other gods, and they will be punished. They did, and they were. Still God made the promise that all they had to do was to turn back to Him, and He would forgive them, and bless them. God knew there would be problems so He predicted a new covenant, that new covenant is found in Jesus Christ and it is in Jesus Christ that God is represented perfectly. God didn't change His mind, He changed covenants, after Israel broke the old covenant...as He predicted.

Same way with going to all the trouble to find a picture of Jesus holding a gun to use as your 'symbol' -- or making declarations that God is a serial killer.


Are you completely unable to tell different posters apart?

I will repeat my point.

Karma is not part of Christian theology.
The Christian theological view is that bad things happen to everyone, including good people and believing in God in no way means you will experience one iota less suffering than anyone else. The promised reward for faith does not come in this life.

what I do question though is how far your laughing will get you....at least in the end.

Laughing your way through life will get you very far. It relieves stress, lowers blood pressure and is good for overall health!

You should try it sometime! :thumbs:

Two points. You are saying here that God's sense of justice matches your own.
No, not at all, God's Justice is true, based on absolute knowledge, and absolute power. You could probably say that people's sense of justice comes from God, (seeing as we are made in His image) but our justice is incomplete.

Also, you implied that God must punish sin, as though he didn't have a choice in the matter.
His nature is perfection, it is what, or rather, who He is.

Whether knowing or believing, it seems Christians talk about the nature of god a lot and yet cry "god is incomprehensible" if anyone joins in or suggests flaws in their descriptions.

Then I said something to you like... that's what FAITH is all about. Believing in something incomprehensible.Okay, I see why you said it now. You don't use quotes much SMW.

Call it belief, call it faith, call it sausages. None of that is my point. Rather it is that some in this thread are applying one rule to themselves and another to everyone else. Christians may talk freely about god's nature (created everything, is personal, loves and judges us, became human of a virgin etc etc etc). Meanwhile the slightest word from doubters is quelled with "you are a clay vase trying to understand a potter" or whatever.

Then you went off on Darth Vader.That arose in response to someone else arguing you can't consider god to be evil if he doesn't exist.

Got it now? Good.Fuck MC Hammer.

That was a test run. Another snotty comment like that your god gets the insult.

If you beleive someone had a chance at a life they never dreamed possible, that was better then what they have ever known before, wouldnt you at least try to show them?Yes I would. I don't begrudge that at all, but I do think some could work on their technique.

Frankly I'm enjoying this old-school atheist vs. Christian thread very much. But there is no underlying prejudice against the religious in me at all.

I do not say a problem with the God of the O/T and the God of the N/T. It seems very simple to me. A Blood thirsty, Murderous, and Sociopathic Monster took some Prosac, Wrapped it'self in a cacoon. And turned into God Jesus who claims to be a Loving and Forgiving God that will condemn everyone to eternal damnation if they do not dot their (I)'s and crosses their Tee's

Yes I would. I don't begrudge that at all, but I do think some could work on their technique.

Frankly I'm enjoying this old-school atheist vs. Christian thread very much. But there is no underlying prejudice against the religious in me at all.


I understand, I'm enjoying it as well.

stark is hitting on some good subject matter that I was going to bring up. Reading his post are spot on for me, so I think I'll just keep my reply to myself for now.

Dio has brought up some good points as well.

People seem to be placing human limitations on God, expecting him to act as they would in a given situation.
The North Korean authorities should use that line when defending Kim Jung Il.

Peasant: Kim Jung Il is a bad leader and a hypocrite. He says he loves us but we are starving.
Officer: He is wise beyond your understanding. What do you know about running a country? Who are you to question the Dear Leader?
The mistake is comparing an All Powerful, All Knowing, Eternal, Holy, Loving, Merciful, Just, God, who lives outside of space and time, with a sinful human being.

I will repeat my point.
The promised reward for faith does not come in this life.

Thats not entirely true, God does bless people.
Christians go out of their way for God's blessings, which are forms of rewards.

A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.
C. S. Lewis
msmary, I love this quote. Thanks for posting it.

I do not say a problem with the God of the O/T and the God of the N/T. It seems very simple to me. A Blood thirsty, Murderous, and Sociopathic Monster took some Prosac, Wrapped it'self in a cacoon. And turned into God Jesus who claims to be a Loving and Forgiving God that will condemn everyone to eternal damnation if they do not dot their (I)'s and crosses their Tee's

Well he didn't say serial killer. LOL
:lolhit:

A more accurate analogy is we can no more know God's mind than a clay vase can know the mind of non-clay omnivase that some other clay vase says made everything.
I think that would only work if the claim was that God is a non-flesh, omnihuman.

The mistake is comparing an All Powerful, All Knowing, Eternal, Holy, Loving, Merciful, Just, God, who lives outside of space and time, with a sinful human being.

LOVING!! AHAHAH!!

All powerful then how come he lost satan and 1/3 of his angels.

Eternal- god seem to be quite busy in the old testiment killing and murding people and calling for the rape of woman but for 2,000 years we have not heard a peep from him. I think god is dead.

HOly is a relevant term. My sock are holy.

MERIFUL!! HAHHAAA see post about the atrocities god did to humans there quiet a few and please explain to me how he is merciful.

in germany
QUACH!

I place judement of what I do know about the old testiment of the Judeo Christian god.
Could it be that your judgment of God is not on what you "do know" about the Old Testament, but on a mind set that you need to satisfy your anger towards God?

Whether knowing or believing, it seems Christians talk about the nature of god a lot and yet cry "god is incomprehensible" if anyone joins in or suggests flaws in their descriptions.
In speaking of the Nature of God, theology makes a distinction between the communicable attributes of God and the incommunicable attributes of God.
Some of His attributes we can understand...to a certain point, His other attributes we cannot understand.

I am angry at any injustice and I see injustice in the old testiment. Just because he "claims" to be a god does not give him the excuse to commit the atrocities he has committed.
Being a god does not make you free from being judged by your own people.
These scare tactics of killing you for speaking out or burning your soul for free thinking isn't working anymore and millions of people are understanding that they do not have to believe anymore and I think that is a good thing.

The mistake is comparing an All Powerful, All Knowing, Eternal, Holy, Loving, Merciful, Just, God, who lives outside of space and time, with a sinful human being.That would be a mistake but I am making no such comparison. I am simply pointing out that arguments for an All Wonderful deity that knows best no matter how bad things get are also applicable to personality cults. These arguments are weak precisely because they fail to recognise the distinction between benign-but-incomprehensible (god) and malign-and-full-of-shit (Kim Jung Il).

A more accurate analogy is we can no more know God's mind than a clay vase can know the mind of non-clay omnivase that some other clay vase says made everything.I think that would only work if the claim was that God is a non-flesh, omnihuman.My statement is readily adapted to fit your favorite deity of choice:

A more accurate analogy is we can no more know God's mind than a clay vase can know the mind of an All Powerful, All Knowing, Eternal, Holy, Loving, Merciful, Just, Clay-Vase-God, who lives outside of space and time, that some other clay vase says made everything.

In speaking of the Nature of God, theology makes a distinction between the communicable attributes of God and the incommunicable attributes of God.
Some of His attributes we can understand...to a certain point, His other attributes we cannot understand.Fine. But I'm sure you are familiar with the following types of arguments in which Christians compare god with sinful human beings:

"...you'd expect a father to punish his children and it's the same with god..."

"...if you saw a watch in a forest you know there is a watch-maker..."

"...would you want someone to love you freely or because they are a mindless robot programmed to love you? God doesn't want the love of robots..."

This is the problem. The "god is incomprehensible" or "god ain't human stop thinking he is" arguments are ignored by many Christians, and very often the same ones who sometimes use them.

Thats not entirely true, God does bless people.
Christians go out of their way for God's blessings, which are forms of rewards.

A Christian's rewards are not in this life, they are in the "kingdom of god".

I am angry at any injustice and I see injustice in the old testiment. Just because he "claims" to be a god does not give him the excuse to commit the atrocities he has committed.
Being a god does not make you free from being judged by your own people.
These scare tactics of killing you for speaking out or burning your soul for free thinking isn't working anymore and millions of people are understanding that they do not have to believe anymore and I think that is a good thing.

Youre angry at any injustice?
What about the countless native Americans who were killed to form the U.S.A?
I see youre still an American. Even though the country was built on the blood of men, woman and children who lived here long before we got here.

Maybe if you are that worried about injustice, you should move to Switzerland.
Its a nice place I hear and from what I understand they havent really done any injustice.
Or Canada maybe? I couldnt say if they went on a bloody rampage to make their country.
Did they?

I began to make a reply to the scripture you left, what I had began to look like a small book, way to much to leave here as a post.

Your post about Isaiah.
Lets back the wagon up a bit, youre showing what you want to show and not telling the whole story here.
The same people, who get raped are robbing from orphins and oppressing a people.
An entire nation is being demoralised, murdered and pilfered, plundered and tortured in several ways and when God gives his
people the opportunity to stand up to them, all you can say or do is point out how these people are being raped?
Whatever reason you can find, right?

Isaiah 9

20 On the right they will devour,
but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
but not be satisfied.
Each will feed on the flesh of his own offspring [c] :

21 Manasseh will feed on Ephraim, and Ephraim on Manasseh;
together they will turn against Judah.
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.


Isaiah 10

1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,

2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
and robbing the fatherless.

Most everything else you left, are books that tell the Jews how to build a nation.
Sadly war is needed for that and people die in war. But has youre still a U.S citizen I dont see where you can argue against it.

Basically the OT is the Law and the NT, New Testament, is Gods Grace.
Christian dont require a nation to spread the word of God. Jews did, more or less.
The OT shows us what people went through before God made his sacrifice.
The troubles people suffered to be a follower, which they dont have to do now.
One is law and one is grace, not that you would understand.

A Christian's rewards are not in this life, they are in the "kingdom of god".

They'er different forms of rewards, some are eternal and some aren't.

They'er different forms of rewards, some are eternal and some aren't.

Oh really? Could you name some non-eternal rewards that you know for a fact were bestowed by God?

Oh really? Could you name some non-eternal rewards that you know for a fact were bestowed by God?

I can name a bunch that were bestowed on me personally, considering thats how blessings work, for the most part.

Would you like a list?

I can name a bunch that were bestowed on me personally, considering thats how blessings work, for the most part.

Would you like a list?

Do you think those "blessings" were bestowed upon you as rewards for something you did, or because God loves you?

Do you think those "blessings" were bestowed upon you as rewards for something you did, or because God loves you?

I see what youre saying.

Some blessings are a form of a reward. If its in Gods name then you get it. That doesnt always mean its something that just belongs to the person asking.
However there are other forms of blessings.

Faith based blessings happen all the time, which can only be described as gifts if the faith is based on personal need.

Christians also depend on God to bring satisfaction into their lives. These kinds of blessings can be anything. Which often compliment a persons life and are often the kinds of things you cant take with you to Heaven.

None of which are given to a Christian if they dont first believe in God and have faith. Which is, living the same kind of life that will generate rewards in Heaven.

Youre angry at any injustice?
What about the countless native Americans who were killed to form the U.S.A?
I see youre still an American. Even though the country was built on the blood of men, woman and children who lived here long before we got here.

Maybe if you are that worried about injustice, you should move to Switzerland.
Its a nice place I hear and from what I understand they havent really done any injustice.
Or Canada maybe? I couldnt say if they went on a bloody rampage to make their country.
Did they?

I began to make a reply to the scripture you left, what I had began to look like a small book, way to much to leave here as a post.

Your post about Isaiah.
Lets back the wagon up a bit, youre showing what you want to show and not telling the whole story here.
The same people, who get raped are robbing from orphins and oppressing a people.
An entire nation is being demoralised, murdered and pilfered, plundered and tortured in several ways and when God gives his
people the opportunity to stand up to them, all you can say or do is point out how these people are being raped?
Whatever reason you can find, right?

Isaiah 9

20 On the right they will devour,
but still be hungry;
on the left they will eat,
but not be satisfied.
Each will feed on the flesh of his own offspring [c] :

21 Manasseh will feed on Ephraim, and Ephraim on Manasseh;
together they will turn against Judah.
Yet for all this, his anger is not turned away,
his hand is still upraised.


Isaiah 10

1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,

2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
and robbing the fatherless.

Most everything else you left, are books that tell the Jews how to build a nation.
Sadly war is needed for that and people die in war. But has youre still a U.S citizen I dont see where you can argue against it.

Basically the OT is the Law and the NT, New Testament, is Gods Grace.
Christian dont require a nation to spread the word of God. Jews did, more or less.
The OT shows us what people went through before God made his sacrifice.
The troubles people suffered to be a follower, which they dont have to do now.
One is law and one is grace, not that you would understand.

IF you see the thread in world news of how the native Americans are still getting screwed you will see I am clearly outraged by how we got this land and already said I would be willing to give part of my land back to them and pay 35 percent taxes instead of 30 to support them.

You are deflecting. What does being an american have to do with god being unjust? Actuall in Canada the Natives there are just as mad about thier land being taken away.

The fact is that god did unjust and unethical things.

I will not follow him. He has not apologized for his wrong doings.
Americans are trying to make amends to the Native Americans and trying to set things right.
Humans I hold to a different standard than some being who claims to be perfect and infailable and spouts stuff about morality and ethics. God is suppose to be better than humans but looking that old testiment he is just as sinful if not worse because he abuse his authority as a god.
Just like an owner who beats his dog should get that animal taken away from him.

I see what youre saying.

Some blessings are a form of a reward. If its in Gods name then you get it. That doesnt always mean its something that just belongs to the person asking.
However there are other forms of blessings.

Faith based blessings happen all the time, which can only be described as gifts if the faith is based on personal need.

Christians also depend on God to bring satisfaction into their lives. These kinds of blessings can be anything. Which often compliment a persons life and are often the kinds of things you cant take with you to Heaven.

None of which are given to a Christian if they dont first believe in God and have faith. Which is, living the same kind of life that will generate rewards in Heaven.

I see a slippery slope in a belief in earthly blessings based on your faith or deeds.

This belief in faith based blessings is not like the belief in Karma, because Karma does not involve a deity that gets personally involved and makes judgements about your behavior, doleing out blessings and curses accordingly. If that were true, then good people should not have bad things happen to them so often and bad people would almost never have anything good happen to them.

The wealthy and powerful have often believed throughout history that they were blessed by God because of something they did or because of some inherent quality that made them more worthy of God's blessing than everyone else. Kings and Emperors use the belief in "Divine Rule" to justify their own positions and decisions, claiming that their money or status is a sign that God favors them over others.

IF you see the thread in world news of how the native Americans are still getting screwed you will see I am clearly outraged by how we got this land and already said I would be willing to give part of my land back to them and pay 35 percent taxes instead of 30 to support them.

Some of your land? It was "all" their land before we got here.

You are deflecting. What does being an american have to do with god being unjust? Actuall in Canada the Natives there are just as mad about thier land being taken away.

The fact is that god did unjust and unethical things.
Most of what you quoted from the bible, was the law and teachings of the Jewish nation. Which is describing methods of war and how to build a nation.
War is war, anyway you want to look at it its ugly and people die. But it is how nations are built.


I will not follow him. He has not apologized for his wrong doings.
Americans are trying to make amends to the Native Americans and trying to set things right.
Trying? Where do you see that? A few casinos and some cigarette stands here and there.

Humans I hold to a different standard than some being who claims to be perfect and infailable and spouts stuff about morality and ethics. God is suppose to be better than humans

Thats why we have said, you cant expect to understand God.

but looking that old testiment he is just as sinful if not worse because he abuse his authority as a god.
Just like an owner who beats his dog should get that animal taken away from him.

Not that I think he needed to do anything, but...
Dieing on the cross wasnt enough, now he has to apologise to you?

I love wikipedia. There are bad articles but very few, and they do a good job monitoring it. This might change your opinion of wikipedia: http://news.com.com/Study+Wikipedia+as+accurate+as+Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

Interesting that they didn't disclose what errors they found in Britannica or the process they used. I'd be interested in finding out if that information is turned over to the Britannica organization at some point.

I know that they try to review everything that is posted on there. It takes some time though.

This is way off topic but did you watch The Office episode where Michael got information on how to conduct a negotiation for wage increase from Wikipedia? Second season, I believe. Hilarious.

msmary, I love this quote. Thanks for posting it.


Thank you Stark. I find CS Lewis to be a pretty logical guy. His view on creation and the "shadow lands" of this world are very inspiring.

Do you think those "blessings" were bestowed upon you as rewards for something you did, or because God loves you?

Blessings are not bestowed on us as rewards for something we do. A blessing is a gift, not payment.

None of us can be good enough to earn rewards from God. Each of us falls far short.

Christians do not make a deal with God in which they say, "God, I will do such and such if you do such and such in return."

IF you see the thread in world news of how the native Americans are still getting screwed you will see I am clearly outraged by how we got this land and already said I would be willing to give part of my land back to them and pay 35 percent taxes instead of 30 to support them.

You are deflecting. What does being an american have to do with god being unjust? Actuall in Canada the Natives there are just as mad about thier land being taken away.

The fact is that god did unjust and unethical things.

I will not follow him. He has not apologized for his wrong doings.
Americans are trying to make amends to the Native Americans and trying to set things right.
Humans I hold to a different standard than some being who claims to be perfect and infailable and spouts stuff about morality and ethics. God is suppose to be better than humans but looking that old testiment he is just as sinful if not worse because he abuse his authority as a god.
Just like an owner who beats his dog should get that animal taken away from him.


Since you have so much faith in what God has done because you really have a lot of faith in it to broadcast your views so much. Then why don't you have faith in the fact that God gave his son to die for us? Why dont you have faith in all the scriptures about forgiving? I mean God would forgive you but would you forgive him? Probably not because you like to pick and choose what you feel you want to have faith in and no matter what you say, you have a lot of faith in the Old Testament.

Warrior,

If you believe this:
Isaiah 10
1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,

2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
and robbing the fatherless.

How can you NOT believe this:

Gen 1:1 - In the beginning GOD created the heaven and the earth...

It is HIS book you know? It's not like you can pick out a handful of verses you want to believe and call thousands of other verses lies.

Then again, I've given up trying to have a reasonable discussion with you on this subject. Your mind is made up. Well, sort of. First you're not even sure there IS a God. But if there is, you're sure He is evil... and you have the bible verses to 'prove' your point.

Well, here's a couple of bible verses that speaks directly to YOU. Whether you want to believe them or not is totally up to you. I'm done.

And thou shalt know that I [am] the Lord, [and that] I have heard all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to consume. Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard [them].

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Blaspheme away, sister. It's YOUR eternal life, not mine.

SMW

Blessings are not bestowed on us as rewards for something we do. A blessing is a gift, not payment.

None of us can be good enough to earn rewards from God. Each of us falls far short.

Christians do not make a deal with God in which they say, "God, I will do such and such if you do such and such in return."

Thanks Frogger. I find your posts and insight very refreshing!

:)
Kimi

Roffleskates, now it's the believers ganging up on the atheists!

Look god in the old testiment has a completely different peronality than the god in the second testiment. I find that a little wierd and it doesn't add up. Genisis was written by a completely different author than the rest of the book. Those books are written by at least 15 different people at 15 different time periods and they just do not add up.
I don't believe god created the earth in 6 days because it is scientifically proven that the earth took billions of years to form. I do not believe go created man because there is scientific proof that men evolved from apes. The bible has been proven wrong over and over again. The world is not flat. It is not ethical to stone someone to death or to sell daughters to your neighbors or not give woman equal rights and not ethical to own slaves yet the bible clearly condones this. God never made any rules against these things or they would be in the ten commandments so god obviously thought these things were acceptable which makes him failable because we know today those things are wrong.

Look god in the old testiment has a completely different peronality than the god in the second testiment. I find that a little wierd and it doesn't add up. Genisis was written by a completely different author than the rest of the book. Those books are written by at least 15 different people at 15 different time periods and they just do not add up.
I don't believe god created the earth in 6 days because it is scientifically proven that the earth took billions of years to form. I do not believe go created man because there is scientific proof that men evolved from apes. The bible has been proven wrong over and over again. The world is not flat. It is not ethical to stone someone to death or to sell daughters to your neighbors or not give woman equal rights and not ethical to own slaves yet the bible clearly condones this. God never made any rules against these things or they would be in the ten commandments so god obviously thought these things were acceptable which makes him failable because we know today those things are wrong.


You actually believe we evolved from apes??

:lolhit:

That's the funniest post I've read in days. I used to date a science major in fact he teaches it now in a university...anywho he once told me that studying science only made him have more faith in the fact that God created everything.

yes I do ever head of DNA. Our DNA is 95 percent identical to a chimpanze? as we are only 80 percent identitical to a mouse.

I find it hard to deny that evidence?
oh of course you do not believe in science and facts?

an educated person would see that we decended from apes. We do not believe in hocus pokus maybe you should attend hogwarts?


Our closest cousins
Steve Jones considers the consequences of human rights for chimps

A chimpanzee eats peanuts
at a Buenos Aires zoo in Argentina
Last week on the BBC World Service, I exchanged monologues with a Member of the European Parliament (debate unfortunately proved impossible). David Hammerstein is a Spanish Green who supports a Bill to accord rights to chimpanzees on the grounds that “their social and emotional needs are at the same level as handicapped people, small children, or the elderly and mentally impaired”.

Chimps share 98 per cent of their DNA with humans. That strikes me as a dangerous argument if applied in reverse and, although some of my best friends are primates, it is also entirely arbitrary. If chimps have rights, why not gorillas; if gorillas, why not monkeys; and if monkeys, why not mice or mynah birds? Certainly, all those creatures deserve respect ? but where do we draw the line? The double helix is often brought in to help. One argument for putting chimps in the human family, with all that implies, turns on the fact that they share 98 per cent of our DNA. True enough, but since last year’s completion of the chimp gene map some unexpected truths have emerged.

Recent results show that we are less ape-like than many of us might hope or fear. W S Gilbert’s claim that “Darwinian man, though well behaved, is really but a monkey shaved” is absolutely correct. Genetic man is a primate trimmed; a cropped version of a better-endowed ancestor, many of whose genes survive in chimpanzees, but not in us.

The appendix has many molecular equivalents in the form of useless bits of DNA that live on as shadows of their ancient selves after damage by mutation. We have lots of those pseudogenes, as they are called; more, in fact, than do chimpanzees. One hint of what we have lost comes from hair itself. We are bald compared with our kin because one of the genes for the hair protein keratin no longer works in the human lineage, although it is in full production in the other branch of the family.

Samson lost his strength once shaved, and so did the rest of us, for the DNA responsible for powerful muscle proteins is also out of action in humans compared with chimps (to wrestle with our closest relative, whatever its rights, is always a mistake). A tea party organised by those African primates might also prove a risky experience, for they have a whole series of enzymes that detoxify poisons and allow them to eat plants that would be fatal to humans.

In addition, we are, compared with them, creatures of regrettably poor taste, for a whole series of DNA segments involved in gustatory experience have rusted away in homo sapiens but survive in chimps. We smell, by the way, even worse.

Gene loss can be good for you. If biting is allowed when grappling with our hairy but fastidious opponent (and chimp teeth can do more harm than our much-reduced incisors), our wounds are less likely to turn nasty.. Most humans, apart from a few Africans, bear a damaged version of a protein called caspase, which works at full strength in all other primates.

The few people who carry the functional version are much more likely to die of septic shock after infection than are others. Quite why may have something to do with the immune system’s tendency to turn on itself as its elements clash when stressed. Many parts of that complicated machine have rusted away in humans compared with chimps, which may be why a working caspase, whose job is to stop the system over-reacting, can be dangerous in our enfeebled frames.

In evolution, less often means more: a simplified chimp became a human being just as a free-living flatworm became a tapeworm. Loss of some functions was matched by gain of others. We have reason to be proud of our brains, which work hard and to better effect than do those of chimpanzees.

However, genetics hints that for half the population, the essence of being human lies as much within the scrotum as within the skull. The genes involved in being male have evolved at great speed since we split from chimps and the Y chromosome has shifted far more from our common ancestor than has the X. Women, who lack that chromosome, are hence more like chimpanzees than are men. Would anyone dare suggest that their rights are in some way compromised by that evolutionary fact? Certainly not: and the claim that the legal position of chimps should be strengthened because homo sapiens is a slimmed-down version of our shared ancestor is equally spurious.

yes I do ever head of DNA. Our DNA is 95 percent identical to a chimpanze? as we are only 80 percent identitical to a mouse.

I find it hard to deny that evidence?
oh of course you do not believe in science and facts?


Um...most "science" is based up of theories and not fact. You know thats why its called the "big bang THEORY".

And everyones DNA is different. Just because mine is similar to an apes, doesn't mean I evolved from it.

However I could maybe see why you think YOU evolved from one. That one I believe.

UM DNA is not a theory.... ROFLMAO!!

DNA is a fact!!

big bang is a theory because we cannot prove it.

DNA is proven and can be used in a court of law.

It is funny how you try to discredit the facts with your superstition. That is what I hate about religion most of all.

The denial of facts and logic for superstition.

we all evolved from apes.

Please go back to hogwarts and practice some hocus pocus fantacy stuff.

UM DNA is not a theory.... ROFLMAO!!

DNA is a fact!!

big bang is a theory because we cannot prove it.

DNA is proven and can be used in a court of law.

It is funny how you try to discredit the facts with your superstition. That is what I hate about religion most of all.

The denial of facts and logic for superstition.

we all evolved from apes.

Please go back to hogwarts and practice some hocus pocus fantacy stuff.


LMAO to you too dork.

I said most science and wasn't including DNA. You're kinda dumb huh? But hey read what you want into what I say, you do that with the Bible and I'm sure everything else.

Poor girl

I hope you dont have children.

UM DNA is not a theory.... ROFLMAO!!

DNA is a fact!!

big bang is a theory because we cannot prove it.

DNA is proven and can be used in a court of law.

It is funny how you try to discredit the facts with your superstition. That is what I hate about religion most of all.

The denial of facts and logic for superstition.

we all evolved from apes.

Please go back to hogwarts and practice some hocus pocus fantacy stuff.


And I have never on this board talked about religion. I've talked about God and my relationship to him and what the word states (bible if you dont know what the word is).

it doesn't matter the fact that you reject pure science and fact of DNA over words in a book shows how irrational and illogical you are??

and I have 3 kids and one on the way and I will make damn sure they use thier brains instead of blindly following magic and the supernatuaral.

I mean do you realize how you sound to refuse to accept something so widly accepted as DNA that is used on our court systems as proof of RAPE and MURDER but you refuse to believe it because of words in a book??

I will remember that when a woman gets raped or murdered and tell thier family when the DNA proves who the perp was that Christians say that it is not a valid test that it is just theory not a fact?? and let the murder and rapist go free.

I will remember that when a woman gets raped or murdered and tell thier family when the DNA proves who the perp was that Christians say that it is not a valid test that it is just theory not a fact?? and let the murder and rapist go free.
And I'll remember you suggested that Jesus have a DNA test to prove he's the son of God and that they should have gotten those miricles (sic) on tape!!

3 kids and one on the way, huh?

Now why is that not a surprise?

I will remember that when a woman gets raped or murdered and tell thier family when the DNA proves who the perp was that Christians say that it is not a valid test that it is just theory not a fact?? and let the murder and rapist go free.


Here we go again....let me say it more slowly for ya ok...I didn't say DNA was a theory. I did post what I thought about DNA and our relationship with apes. In fact I do believe I broke it into 2 didn't paragraphs so you wouldn't confuse the two. However I guess you did confuse it but I'm not really suprised by that.

And I'm sorry to hear that you will be hindering your childrens views and values. However it is possible that they will grow up and think "wow mom was a big wack job trying to make us think we evolved from an ape".

Wow and it might just so happen that they might end up praying for your soul.

wouldn't that be something?

And I'll remember you suggested that Jesus have a DNA test to prove he's the son of God and that they should have gotten those miricles (sic) on tape!!

3 kids and one on the way, huh?

Now why is that not a surprise?

The hand the rocks the craddle rules the world!!

That is more of MY DNA in this world. You are more than welcome to keep your DNA out of the gene pool.

Why does it matter how many kids I have my husband makes 80,000 a year we can afford it. Maybe your just jealous?

The hand the rocks the craddle rules the world!!

That is more of MY DNA in this world. You are more than welcome to keep your DNA out of the gene pool.

Why does it matter how many kids I have my husband makes 80,000 a year we can afford it. Maybe your just jealous?


LMAO

Do you really think SMW was saying that because she's jealous of your money???

Here we go again....let me say it more slowly for ya ok...I didn't say DNA was a theory. I did post what I thought about DNA and our relationship with apes. In fact I do believe I broke it into 2 didn't paragraphs so you wouldn't confuse the two. However I guess you did confuse it but I'm not really suprised by that.

And I'm sorry to hear that you will be hindering your childrens views and values. However it is possible that they will grow up and think "wow mom was a big wack job trying to make us think we evolved from an ape".

Umm you still are rejecting fact.
They took Human DNA and compared it directly to chimpanzee DNA and there is only 98 percent difference between the two strands.

IT IS PROVEN FACT THAT CHIMPANZEE DNA IS 98 PERCENT THE SAME AS OURS.

You cannot deny it without looking like a loon.

as for my kids I teach morals and values just fine. I do not need a book to tell me to be a good person and to teach my children to be a good person. My children love me and will always love me. I love them and hug them and teach them all the religions as well as atheist and agnostics. They understand all cultures and religions and I do not brainwash them to just one religion and stunt thier free thinking.

The reality is the link between humans and Chimpanzees are proven no matter how much you wish it weren't true doesn't make it so.

LMAO

Do you really think SMW was saying that because she's jealous of your money???


yep:hula:

the more I debate this with your religious fruit cakes the more ridiculous it gets. I mean it is absurd to deny pure facts over fiction. It just shows how faith destroys logical free thinking.

Go on mindless slaves of god.. go jump off the cliffs with the other lemmings.

Umm you still are rejecting fact.
They took Human DNA and compared it directly to chimpanzee DNA and there is only 98 percent difference between the two strands.

IT IS PROVEN FACT THAT CHIMPANZEE DNA IS 98 PERCENT THE SAME AS OURS.

You cannot deny it without looking like a loon.

as for my kids I teach morals and values just fine. I do not need a book to tell me to be a good person and to teach my children to be a good person. My children love me and will always love me. I love them and hug them and teach them all the religions as well as atheist and agnostics. They understand all cultures and religions and I do not brainwash them to just one religion and stunt thier free thinking.

The reality is the link between humans and Chimpanzees are proven no matter how much you wish it weren't true doesn't make it so.


I didn't deny what you said about DNA. i didn't say that our DNA wasn't close to theirs. In fact I said just because it IS doesn't mean we evolved from them. You just want an arguement and pull crap out of your butt for something to say.

And you were the one who said you weren't going to teach your kids about magic but yet in this post you said you teach them all religions which you think are based on hocus pocus.

:@@:

the more I debate this with your religious fruit cakes the more ridiculous it gets. I mean it is absurd to deny pure facts over fiction. It just shows how faith destroys logical free thinking.

Go on mindless slaves of god.. go jump off the cliffs with the other lemmings.


God wants us to be free thinking. It's called free will. We have a choice to follow or deny.

Faith doesn't destory free thinking. Faith is a choice made by free thinking.

ROFLMAO... free thinking but if you think wrong he smites you, murders you, rapes your woman and sends you to hell.

Yes we are so allowed free will and free thinking....

Yes faith does destroy free thinking. You can't even admit that you are genetically related to a monkey because a book written 2,000 years ago done with no research is more valid than scientic proof today.

Yes you sure have free thinking?/ More like brain washed like Al Queda and Taliaban

The hand the rocks the craddle rules the world!!

That is more of MY DNA in this world. You are more than welcome to keep your DNA out of the gene pool.

Why does it matter how many kids I have my husband makes 80,000 a year we can afford it. Maybe your just jealous?

:woohoo:

Just keep rockin that craddle, dear. Before you know it, the human race will be even closer to having the DNA of a monkey.

:lolhit:

:woohoo:

Just keep rockin that craddle, dear. Before you know it, the human race will be even closer to having the DNA of a monkey.

:lolhit:

.....to quote Warrior.........ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

we are already related to a monkey so please try to keep up.

.....to quote Warrior.........ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

yes another christian who can't swollow the truth. SO you make personal attacks to deflect because you cannot prove that DNA is wrong.

In is in your face. YOU LOSE!!!

Your book is full of crap and you know it.

ROFLMAO... free thinking but if you think wrong he smites you, murders you, rapes your woman and sends you to hell.

Yes we are so allowed free will and free thinking....

Yes faith does destroy free thinking. You can't even admit that you are genetically related to a monkey because a book written 2,000 years ago done with no research is more valid than scientic proof today.

Yes you sure have free thinking?/ More like brain washed like Al Queda and Taliaban


Yes I'm sure we have free thinking. You can go out and murder someone if you want to but you might end up caught and in prison for the rest of your life. It's called a choice. We all have a choice in everything. i didn't say there wouldn't be consequences to actions. Again this is basic logic. Doesn't take a Christian to figure that out.

:bombout:

:woohoo:

Just keep rockin that craddle, dear. Before you know it, the human race will be even closer to having the DNA of a monkey.

:lolhit:


:drinktoth

I see we are now debating whether homo sapiens evolved from apes.

It's a silly debate because homo sapiens is an ape.

UM DNA is not a theory.... ROFLMAO!!
LMAO to you too dork.
LMAO

Do you really think SMW was saying that because she's jealous of your money???
ROFLMAO... free thinking but if you think wrong he smites you, murders you, rapes your woman and sends you to hell.
.....to quote Warrior.........ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
It's a comedy goldmine! Somebody call Eddie Murphy!

Blessings are not bestowed on us as rewards for something we do. A blessing is a gift, not payment.

None of us can be good enough to earn rewards from God. Each of us falls far short.

Christians do not make a deal with God in which they say, "God, I will do such and such if you do such and such in return."

I agree completely. That was my point also.
Well said.

It is HIS book you know? It's not like you can pick out a handful of verses you want to believe and call thousands of other verses lies.


Why not?
That is precisely what a bunch of old men did at the councils of Nicea and Constantinople to pick and choose what you now think is "his" book.

yes another christian who can't swollow the truth. SO you make personal attacks to deflect because you cannot prove that DNA is wrong.

In is in your face. YOU LOSE!!!

Your book is full of crap and you know it.

I don't believe I said any of that. You have a serious problem with putting words in people's mouths. YOU are the one making a personal attack here.

I see we are now debating whether homo sapiens evolved from apes.

It's a silly debate because homo sapiens is an ape.

Agreed. We are just monkeys with very cool toys.

I don't believe I said any of that. You have a serious problem with putting words in people's mouths. YOU are the one making a personal attack here.


I'm confused though. i'm torn between... she likes to put words in people's mouths....or.....she just really doesn't understand what is being written, she only understands herself.

The hand the rocks the craddle rules the world!!

That is more of MY DNA in this world. You are more than welcome to keep your DNA out of the gene pool.

Why does it matter how many kids I have my husband makes 80,000 a year we can afford it. Maybe your just jealous?

80,000 what? Dollars? Pounds? Euros? Not like that's big money or anything.

I'm confused though. i'm torn between... she likes to put words in people's mouths....or.....she just really doesn't understand what is being written, she only understands herself.


:confused:

I think it's pointless to try and talk to her about anything.....but, you can keep trying if you want, Musiq......I just drop in here and read some of this every little bit. It's very exhausting just to read it, let alone try to participate.....like I said, pointless. You have a lot of good arguments, though!

:)
Kimi

80,000 what? Dollars? Pounds? Euros? Not like that's big money or anything.

I would say pounds--that is, lbs, or tonnage.

:confused:

I think it's pointless to try and talk to her about anything.....but, you can keep trying if you want, Musiq......I just drop in here and read some of this every little bit. It's very exhausting just to read it, let alone try to participate.....like I said, pointless. You have a lot of good arguments, though!

:)
Kimi


It's exhausting to argue but sometimes its just downright funny to me, especially when she pulls things out of what you write just because she really doesn't have much to say about what she's arguing either. I mean she's still confused if she believes in God or not but she believes Him to be bad if he does exist. Why bother worrying if you dont believe anyway...unless she really does believe but is too prideful to admit it because she's stated many times she doesn't believe.

I would say pounds--that is, lbs, or tonnage.


Maybe he makes 80,000 pairs of shoes in a sweatshop every year? She really should have been specific. Otherwise I might have to put words in her mouth.

It's exhausting to argue but sometimes its just downright funny to me, especially when she pulls things out of what you write just because she really doesn't have much to say about what she's arguing either. I mean she's still confused if she believes in God or not but she believes Him to be bad if he does exist. Why bother worrying if you dont believe anyway...unless she really does believe but is too prideful to admit it because she's stated many times she doesn't believe.


Oh Musiq, you and your logical thinking... ;)

80,000 what? Dollars? Pounds? Euros? Not like that's big money or anything.
Her "wealthy" hubby works for Microsoft... so I'd say it's dollars.

Like I said before: WOO HOO!

I agree this has turned into a totally pointless discussion. But you gotta admit, it is kinda amusing.

Her "wealthy" hubby works for Microsoft... so I'd say it's dollars.

Like I said before: WOO HOO!

I agree this has turned into a totally pointless discussion. But you gotta admit, it is kinda amusing.


i wonder if he likes her ape hair?

Agreed. We are just monkeys with very cool toys.We are not monkeys, "just" or otherwise. We are great apes.

Blessings are not bestowed on us as rewards for something we do. A blessing is a gift, not payment.

None of us can be good enough to earn rewards from God. Each of us falls far short.

Christians do not make a deal with God in which they say, "God, I will do such and such if you do such and such in return."


That is a good post.

I have never yet asked that a poster be suspended but I am close to making an exception in the case of Warrior1972. It is one thing to discuss religion including discussions of The Bible. It is quite another to call The Bible crap.

Unless Warrior1972 tones down her hateful rhetoric I suggest that the rest of us simply stop responding to her. It is one thing to discuss issues. It is another thing to be a troll.

So frogger you think the world is flat, that we should sell our daugthers to our neighbors, god created the earth in 6 day which has been proven wrong...??
Go ahead and get me suspended!
None of the stuff is the bible is true.
I stand by my statement.
The stuff written in the bible is crap!

Let me ask you something what do you think of the Koran? Do you believe anything written in the Koran or do you think it is crap? HOw about the morman book by Josoph the dude who read scriptures off of plates and said Jesus lived in America. I bet you think that is crap!!! about the fact that Buddhist believe that buddha was born from the side of his mother instead of her virgina?
I am sure you have criticized Islam faith before? WHy can you criticize Islam but no one can criticize the bible?

SNIFF SNIFF SNIFF

I smell hypocritical bullshit

Um...most "science" is based up of theories and not fact. You know thats why its called the "big bang THEORY".

Well, it would seem you don't know what a theory is.


And everyones DNA is different. Just because mine is similar to an apes, doesn't mean I evolved from it.

Actually, it pretty much does.


However I could maybe see why you think YOU evolved from one. That one I believe.

Odd thing to say considering she's got a better understanding of science than you do.

Actually, it pretty much does.


Well, not entirely, you should explain natural selection if youre going to make that statement.

god created the earth in 6 day which has been proven wrong...??

Q: But the Genesis 1 story says the earth is 6000 years old and everyone knows it doesn't agree with anything in physics, astronomy or geology.

A: The word "day" in Genesis is the Hebrew word "Yom" which means "period of time" and has multiple meanings in the Genesis text. 24 hour days are not defined as such until "day" four (when the sun and moon become visible through the cloud cover of the earth), and there is no specified period of time between Genesis 1:1 (the big bang) and 1:2 (the formation of the earth).

If we read Genesis 1 with two assumptions: (1) "Day" is a period of time and (2) the story is told from an earthly point of view (i.e. not from outer space) then the Genesis account matches modern cosmology and the fossil record tit for tat.

Q: Doesn’t the Big Bang disprove the Bible?

A: Genesis 1:1 says:

In the beginning [of time] God [outside of time] created [out of nothing] the heavens and the earth [everything].

The person who first proposed the Big Bang theory was Georges LeMaitre, who was both a physicist and Roman Catholic priest. LeMaitre's idea was scoffed at at first, and in fact the term "Big Bang" is a derisive term coined by atheist Fred Hoyle who despised the idea that the universe could have a transcendent beginning.

Einstein likewise initially resisted the idea that the universe was not eternal, putting a fudge factor in his equations and later regretting his mistake.

The Big Bang theory says that both time and space begin at a single microscopic point some 13.7 billion years ago, that the universe is expanding and cooling, and that time moves in one and only one direction.

Thus the very first verse of the Bible matches the Big Bang exactly - and in fact only in the last 20 years or so has the Biblical cosmology been confirmed by modern science.

Q: But the Genesis story doesn't sound like any science book I've ever read.

A: Let's take the sequence of events in Genesis step by step:

Genesis 1:1 Creation of the universe
1:2 Earth is covered with water; story is told from the earth
1:3-5 Light becomes visible; day and night
1:6-8 Clouds and water cycle
1:9-10 Ocean and dry land
1:11-13 Plants
1:14-19 Sun and moon become visible in the sky
1:20-23 Fish and Birds
1:24-25 Animals
1:26 Man

This is the exact same sequence we find in modern science books.

Q: Big Bang = Jesus Christ is a pretty big leap.

A: The Old Testament cosmology exactly matches modern scientific discoveries, so Judaism at minimum is validated by modern science. So how do we get to Jesus Christ?

Hebrews 11:3 makes it more specific stating, “The universe that we detect was made from that which we cannot detect.” We can make detections within matter, energy, length, width, height and time, but not beyond.

Eight places in the Bible tell us that God created time. Two examples: 2 Timothy 1:9 which states, “The Grace of God that we now experience was put into effect before the beginning of time” and Titus 1:2 which states, “The hope that we have in Jesus Christ was given to us before the beginning of time.”

John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Only through discoveries of the 20th century and DNA do we now know that words and language are the basis of all creative acts; that without code (the genetic code) replication of cells and even any kind of evolution would be impossible.

John 1:1 is a theological statement that appears to extend to philosophy and science as well: That conception always precedes embodiment; that idea must come before implementation. Mind over matter. Only Judeo-Christian theology describes the universe in this way, an the Christian New Testament view articulates these things much more clearly than the Old Testament.

Christian telling evolution!! ROFLMAO
http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.jhtml?ml_video=77709&ml_collection=&ml_gateway=&ml_gateway_id=&ml_comedian=&ml_runtime=&ml_context=show&ml_origin_url=%2Fshows%2Fsouth_park%2Fvideos%2Fsea son_10%2Findex.jhtml%3FplayVideo%3D77709&ml_playlist=&lnk=&is_large=true

um in the bible it says that god molded man in his image. Molding is evolution!! It takes time to mold something a couple million years.
Simple the bible and evolution can work together.. See.

here is another one for you. God created eve from adams ribs. Before sex come along there was asexual reproduction and a single organism would divide and make two organisms to procreate.

Hmmm??

um in the bible it says that god molded man in his image. Molding is evolution!! It takes time to mold something a couple million years.
Simple the bible and evolution can work together.. See.


My point exactly, glad to see you have the capacity to catch on.

So, you cant say, the bible is wrong. Well you can, but it can be argued logically, which is something you have trouble with.

I have never yet asked that a poster be suspended but I am close to making an exception in the case of Warrior1972.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "suspended".


It is one thing to discuss religion including discussions of The Bible. It is quite another to call The Bible crap.

I understand your anger and distaste Frogger, but there's nothing about saying the Bible is "crap" that comes even close to being against our loose posting rules.


Unless Warrior1972 tones down her hateful rhetoric I suggest that the rest of us simply stop responding to her.

That would probably be the best way to handle it. :)

here is another one for you. God created eve from adams ribs. Before sex come along there was asexual reproduction and a single organism would divide and make two organisms to procreate.

Hmmm??

Thinking outside the box, I like that. Here I thought, rationalisation was beyond you.

Scientic proof that the earth is older than 6,000 years

http://www.geocities.com/questioningpage/Evolve1.html

Also read up on carbon dating. Scientic proof not theory on how old the earth layers are.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm

My point exactly, glad to see you have the capacity to catch on.

So, you cant say, the bible is wrong. Well you can, but it can be argued logically, which is something you have trouble with.


Nope I still don't believe the bible just because I happen to match two thing together to keep christains from being so freaked out and defensive about evolution.

again the bible condones slavery, selling woman to neighbors, stoning woman to death for being unfaithful, killing homosexuals which today we know is wrong.

If god is perfect he would not have condoned those things that today we know is immoral behavior. God never made commandment or rules against these and specically told people these things were ok.

God is not perfect and is immoral.

Thinking outside the box, I like that. Here I thought, rationalisation was beyond you.


yep was either than or cloning.

If god was real which I still highly doubt. I personally think it was a technology advanced being not a god posing as a god. I think the judeo-christian god was an imposter. Kind of like Star Gate.