How can there be a god if he lets bad things happen to good people?
Question: "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?"



Answer: Why do bad things happen to good people? That is one of the difficult questions in all of theology. God is eternal, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. Why should we human beings (not eternal, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent) expect to be able to fully understand God’s ways? The book of Job deals with this issue. God had allowed Satan to do everything he wanted to Job except kill him. What was Job’s reaction? “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised” (Job 1:21). Job didn’t understand why God had allowed the things He did, but he knew that God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. God is good, just, loving, and merciful. Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. However, instead of doubting God's goodness, our reaction should be to trust Him. "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight" (Proverbs 3:5-6).



Perhaps a better question is, "Why do good things happen to bad people?" God is holy (Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8). Human beings are sinful (Romans 3:23; 6:23). Do you want to know how God views humanity? “As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes” (Romans 3:10-18). Every human being on this planet deserves to be thrown into hell at this very moment. Every second we spend alive is only by the grace of God. Even the most terrible misery we could experience on this planet is merciful compared to what we deserve, eternal hell in the lake of fire.



“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). Despite the evil, wicked, sinful nature of the people of this world, God still loved us. He loved us enough to die to take the penalty for our sins (Romans 6:23). All we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ (John 3:16; Romans 10:9) in order to be forgiven and promised a home in heaven (Romans 8:1). What we deserve = hell. What we are given = eternal life in heaven if we would just believe. It has been said, this world is the only hell believers will ever experience, and this world is the only heaven unbelievers will ever experience. The next time we ask the question, “Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?”, maybe we should be asking, “Why does God allow good things to happen to bad people?”


How many bad things does one person have to go through before they die?

Why does he let people suffer so much and not give them a light at the end of the tunnel?
Question: "Why does God allow the innocent to suffer?"



Answer: In answering this question, the first thing to consider is whether such a thing as “the innocent” even exists. According to the Bible, “the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things” (Jeremiah 17:9), and “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Therefore, no one is innocent in the sense of being sinless. Sin entered the world when Adam and Even rebelled against God in the Garden of Eden, and mankind has been in rebellion ever since. Sin’s effects permeate everything, and the suffering we see all around us is a direct result of that sin.

But God did not leave us here to suffer pointlessly. Our loving and merciful God has a perfect plan to use that suffering to accomplish His threefold purpose. First, He uses pain and suffering to draw us to Himself so that we will cling to Him. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation” (John 16:33). Trials and distress are not something unusual in life; they are part of what it means to be human in a fallen world. In Christ we have an anchor that holds fast in all the storms of life, but if we never sail into those storms, how would we know that? It is in times of despair and sorrow that we reach out to Him, and, if we are His children, we always find Him there waiting to comfort and uphold us through it all. In this way, He proves His faithfulness to us and ensures that we will stay close to Him. An added benefit is that as we experience God’s comfort through trials, we are then able to comfort others in the same way (2 Corinthians 1:4).

Second, He proves to us that our faith is real through the suffering and pain that are inevitable in this life. How we respond to suffering is determined by the genuineness of our faith. Those with faith truly from God, “the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2), will not be crushed by suffering, but will come through the trial with their faith intact, having been “proven through fire” so that it “might be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7). Those are the ones who do not shake their fists at God or question His goodness, but instead “count it all joy” (James 1:2), knowing that trials prove that they are truly the children of God. “Blessed is the man who endures temptation, because having been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).

Finally, God uses suffering to take our eyes off this world and put them on the next. The Bible continually exhorts us to not get caught up in the things of this world, but to look forward to the world to come. This world and all that is in it will pass away, but the kingdom of God is eternal. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36), and those who would follow Him must not see the things of this life, both good and bad, as the end of the story. Even the sufferings we endure and which seem so terrible “are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed in us” (Romans 8:18).

Could God prevent all suffering? Of course. But He assures us that “all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28). So even suffering is part of the “all things” that God is using to accomplish His good purposes. His plan is perfect, His character is flawless, and those who trust Him will not be disappointed.

Good posts Invoiable, I enjoyed reading them.

however, I have qualms with several of the points raised, especially with misrepresenting the arguments of the non-believers.

Firstly, on the creation of the planet. The author here seems to have a narrow view of the universe. Simply because everything works so well for us doesn't mean we were the first try on it. The universe is billions and billions of years old with billions of stars and even more planet. The amount of matter and energy is so high, it is incomprehensible, and for all we can know of it, infinite. If you take any probability, no matter how small, and multiply it by infinity (or a near infinite number) you are ensured of success. Why does water work so well? Because that is the most efficient form for it to exist in. I'm sure that on some planet, deep in the regions of space, there is a supercold planet with oceans of methane. Who knows? Perhaps life managed to emerge there too. Just because it works for us, doesn't mean the same rules apply everywhere.

Secondly, on the subject of evolution, mutations are not believed to be the main form of progress, as they are anomolies within the DNA, usually due to enviromental causes. The simple shuffling and reshuffling of genes is enough to provide the diversity required for evolution to take its course. Out of a tribe of monkeys, there wasn't one that could suddenly walk upright and use tools, the process was gradual. The process is so slow, that it is imperceptible and all that can be seen are the milestones.

Also, on that subject, no one claims that information is being created out of nowhere. All the information is always there, but it merely gets organized into a coherent and functional form. Scientists have created groups of amino acids similar to those thought to exist at the origin of life. It is indeed possible that the mind is an illusion and all we are are chemicals trying to react.

The author makes a comparison showing the obtuseness of modern technology when compared with the perfection of the universe, but fails to mention that the universe has had a lot of time to iron out all the wrinkles. Mankind has only been working for a few million years, and in terms of science, only a few hundred years.

Finally, the author takes on an air of superiority in supposing to know the nature and will of God, by hinting of knowlege of eternity. I think one of the main problems with Christianity is the personification of God. The idea of God as a being inherently contradicts itself, as a being is constrained by its physical existence. If God is merely an all pervasive force, the concept becomes much more vague, but easier to accept in terms of magnitude.

Personally, I believe God has no direct influence on this planet or even anything in the universe. however, I do believe, that at the creation of everything, God set up the basic rules for the behavior of matter and energy, and the universe is simply playing things out. This falls in line with the humanist (I think it was Locke) idea of God as the clockmaker.


This philosophy leads to several consequences:
1. A path of reason leading to the nature of God.
2. The denial of free will, as the entire universe is mechanistic and deterministic.
3. The acceptance of ill fortune (similar to Stoicism) simply because it is the natural will of the universe.
4. A relatively harmonious existence between faith and rationality.


Just my 3 cents.

Why do bad things happen to good people? That is one of the difficult questions in all of theology. God is eternal, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. Why should we human beings (not eternal, infinite, omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent) expect to be able to fully understand God’s ways? The book of Job deals with this issue. God had allowed Satan to do everything he wanted to Job except kill him. What was Job’s reaction? “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him” (Job 13:15). “The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised” (Job 1:21). Job didn’t understand why God had allowed the things He did, but he knew that God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. God is good, just, loving, and merciful. Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. However, instead of doubting God's goodness, our reaction should be to trust Him. "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight" (Proverbs 3:5-6).
This leads to a bit of a circular reasoning, in my opinion. How do you know something is good without being able to judge the goodness of it based on its actions against your own idea of right and wrong, good and bad?

Oh so when a little girl is getting raped and molested she is suppose to remember.

"but he knew that God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. God is good, just, loving, and merciful. Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. However, instead of doubting God's goodness, our reaction should be to trust Him."

I mean there must be a good reason for the raping and molesting to occur to the little 4 year old. I mean it is ok that she will come out of it pyschologically damaged and probably hate men when she grows up and be sexually disfunctional but you know god has a purpose and she should be thankful for his teaching her a valuable lesson.

Wow it is like just let the dude rape her because it is ok god has forseen it and it will teach her a valuable lesson about life.

Good posts Invoiable, I enjoyed reading them.

however, I have qualms with several of the points raised, especially with misrepresenting the arguments of the non-believers.

Firstly, on the creation of the planet. The author here seems to have a narrow view of the universe. Simply because everything works so well for us doesn't mean we were the first try on it. The universe is billions and billions of years old with billions of stars and even more planet. The amount of matter and energy is so high, it is incomprehensible, and for all we can know of it, infinite. If you take any probability, no matter how small, and multiply it by infinity (or a near infinite number) you are ensured of success. Why does water work so well? Because that is the most efficient form for it to exist in. I'm sure that on some planet, deep in the regions of space, there is a supercold planet with oceans of methane. Who knows? Perhaps life managed to emerge there too. Just because it works for us, doesn't mean the same rules apply everywhere.

Secondly, on the subject of evolution, mutations are not believed to be the main form of progress, as they are anomolies within the DNA, usually due to enviromental causes. The simple shuffling and reshuffling of genes is enough to provide the diversity required for evolution to take its course. Out of a tribe of monkeys, there wasn't one that could suddenly walk upright and use tools, the process was gradual. The process is so slow, that it is imperceptible and all that can be seen are the milestones.

Also, on that subject, no one claims that information is being created out of nowhere. All the information is always there, but it merely gets organized into a coherent and functional form. Scientists have created groups of amino acids similar to those thought to exist at the origin of life. It is indeed possible that the mind is an illusion and all we are are chemicals trying to react.

The author makes a comparison showing the obtuseness of modern technology when compared with the perfection of the universe, but fails to mention that the universe has had a lot of time to iron out all the wrinkles. Mankind has only been working for a few million years, and in terms of science, only a few hundred years.

Finally, the author takes on an air of superiority in supposing to know the nature and will of God, by hinting of knowlege of eternity. I think one of the main problems with Christianity is the personification of God. The idea of God as a being inherently contradicts itself, as a being is constrained by its physical existence. If God is merely an all pervasive force, the concept becomes much more vague, but easier to accept in terms of magnitude.

Personally, I believe God has no direct influence on this planet or even anything in the universe. however, I do believe, that at the creation of everything, God set up the basic rules for the behavior of matter and energy, and the universe is simply playing things out. This falls in line with the humanist (I think it was Locke) idea of God as the clockmaker.


This philosophy leads to several consequences:
1. A path of reason leading to the nature of God.
2. The denial of free will, as the entire universe is mechanistic and deterministic.
3. The acceptance of ill fortune (similar to Stoicism) simply because it is the natural will of the universe.
4. A relatively harmonious existence between faith and rationality.


Just my 3 cents.


Thank you Homer, those kinds of concepts used for debate are my favorit kind of Christian Theology.

Unfortunately, very brilliant people work on them only to have them distorted to fit someones agenda. So, the published version is always going to be "edited" sadly.
I have talked personally with some of these people. In Evolution you have evidence that is undeniable, of course you know that.
These people have evidence of their own that is just as undeniable but it supports what the bible is saying.
I do know that Evolution comes down to the source of life. For some reason its always about fungus. I believe the arthur understands that the process is gradual, but the question that should be asked is, have we found a mouse with human DNA yet? And does it lead us to the beginning?

For the most part I dont see where anyone is going to be able to answer every question at present.
When I think of the Universe, I think of one very big unanswerable question.
Engineers get results by seeking out how many problems can be answered and then solved. With the Universe being what it is, there are an infinite amount of problems to be solved.

Myself as a Christian, I have felt God personally. So I know he exist and I know he is personal. I can not dismiss this information even though I dont have the answers.
Knowing this, God must fit in the plan somewhere. I cant say exactly where, but I know he is the foundation.

This leads to a bit of a circular reasoning, in my opinion. How do you know something is good without being able to judge the goodness of it based on its actions against your own idea of right and wrong, good and bad?


I'd say people who dont know God persoanlly wouldnt be able to.

I have a personal relationship with God and a deeper understanding of the answer. I think thats the point of the answer to some degree.
If you know God, no matter what happens in your life he will make it right.

If you dont know God but come to know him then he will fix the past.

Its only after you come to know God that you can see how deep his love can get while youre here on Earth, on a personal level.

I agree that God or some "godly force" at least must fit in somewhere, sort of like the divine spark which gets things going. I just remembered something I learned way back in bio class. I forget the exact numbers, so I'll make up some that are close, but all humans are genetically 95% identical, and all mammals are something like 90% identical in terms of genetic structure. So it would seem that we're all just a bunch of different words from the same Scrabble bag.

Oh so when a little girl is getting raped and molested she is suppose to remember.

"but he knew that God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. God is good, just, loving, and merciful. Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. However, instead of doubting God's goodness, our reaction should be to trust Him."

I mean there must be a good reason for the raping and molesting to occur to the little 4 year old. I mean it is ok that she will come out of it pyschologically damaged and probably hate men when she grows up and be sexually disfunctional but you know god has a purpose and she should be thankful for his teaching her a valuable lesson.

Wow it is like just let the dude rape her because it is ok god has forseen it and it will teach her a valuable lesson about life.


Anything can be overcome with the right knowledge.

I'd say people who dont know God persoanlly wouldnt be able to.

I have a personal relationship with God and a deeper understanding of the answer. I think thats the point of the answer to some degree.
If you know God, no matter what happens in your life he will make it right.

If you dont know God but come to know him then he will fix the past.

Its only after you come to know God that you can see how deep his love can get while youre here on Earth, on a personal level.

It generally takes a foundation.As a Kid,their literally was NO family
in my neighborhood who had Unwed parents or people w/o some faith.
It was unheard of.Today it is extremely normal.Even lauded by some.
It has also become highly fashionable to see Religion,especially
Fundementalist Christians as Corny,stupid and sheepish.
I don't know if this contemporary phenomena took root,in a short spell,
or merely was a generational culture shock,that seeped from
Boomers {some became Bohemian} into late Boomers and then this
GenXer Era.
But having a relation with God,who does work in strange ways,leaves
one stronger,and more at peace,especially during life's trying times.
One doesn't have to be Saintly in order to know and seek God in their
daily life.A lot of pretty decent Humans are atheist,until one presses
them about truly important Virtuous matters.Then they fall
flat,like a Paul Bunyon toppled Redwood.With a loud crash,even scraping
sound as that Huge Redwood,bruises other neighbor trees on it's
fatal flight to furrowed ground.
The mark of a Human,will be how they treated their fellow human.
But more importantly,how they felt inside about the welfare and
happiness of not only those we tend to agree with and like,but those
we don't understand and don't know.

Oh so when a little girl is getting raped and molested she is suppose to remember.

"but he knew that God was good and therefore continued to trust in Him. Ultimately, that should be our reaction as well. God is good, just, loving, and merciful. Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. However, instead of doubting God's goodness, our reaction should be to trust Him."

I mean there must be a good reason for the raping and molesting to occur to the little 4 year old. I mean it is ok that she will come out of it pyschologically damaged and probably hate men when she grows up and be sexually disfunctional but you know god has a purpose and she should be thankful for his teaching her a valuable lesson.

Wow it is like just let the dude rape her because it is ok god has forseen it and it will teach her a valuable lesson about life.

Warrior, this type of example is often used by non-believers to "prove" that if God were a loving God, he would not allow these types of things to happen. Since they do happen, He must not be a loving God.

But I would say, that what it proves is that man is depraved. The little girl is innocent, but the man perpetrating the act certainly is not. He had a choice to not do this. And chose to act in a way that is evil. And when people make evil choices, the innocent suffer.

An alternative would be to not allow people to make choices. To make the world so that no one could do wrong, ever.

And believers feel that this was the way the world was until the Fall. Even with free choice. However, when mankind turned away from God and chose to follow what they thought was right, chaos ensued.

I detest what is happening in the world. I detest what is happening in this country everywhere, where children are not loved, and cared for, but are tossed away almost daily. Where strong relationships and marriages are not something to be desired, but money, sex, power are. Families are not considered to be desirable, only romantic sex and youth and "chemistry" are important.

But I don't blame God for the condition of the world. I blame Man.

Great post, Mary. You're truly one of the GOOD ones.

:)
SMW

But I don't blame God for the condition of the world. I blame Man.
If you urge a child to steal something from another, and it does so, are you guilty? By that I mean, humanity has found itself for all its history motivated by deities that tell them how to act or how to think and judge. It's as if you're absolving blame of what may be the source or even justification for a lot of our actions.

If you urge a child to steal something from another, and it does so, are you guilty? By that I mean, humanity has found itself for all its history motivated by deities that tell them how to act or how to think and judge. It's as if you're absolving blame of what may be the source or even justification for a lot of our actions.

If I urge a child to hurt another, yes, I'm guilty.

You're saying, if I understand you correctly, that my opinion of what is right and wrong is based on my belief in God, and therefore I'm absolved from doing wrong? I'm not certain I follow that logic.

What is right and what is wrong? Who determines this?

So, by using warrior's example of a young child being raped, and my saying that the person doing the rape is wrong, you're saying that I only think that's wrong because God told me so. Yep.

Are you saying, then, that the rape is not wrong?

Warrior, this type of example is often used by non-believers to "prove" that if God were a loving God, he would not allow these types of things to happen. Since they do happen, He must not be a loving God.

But I would say, that what it proves is that man is depraved. The little girl is innocent, but the man perpetrating the act certainly is not. He had a choice to not do this. And chose to act in a way that is evil. And when people make evil choices, the innocent suffer.

An alternative would be to not allow people to make choices. To make the world so that no one could do wrong, ever.

And believers feel that this was the way the world was until the Fall. Even with free choice. However, when mankind turned away from God and chose to follow what they thought was right, chaos ensued.

I detest what is happening in the world. I detest what is happening in this country everywhere, where children are not loved, and cared for, but are tossed away almost daily. Where strong relationships and marriages are not something to be desired, but money, sex, power are. Families are not considered to be desirable, only romantic sex and youth and "chemistry" are important.

But I don't blame God for the condition of the world. I blame Man.

Sorry the god I believe in would not sit and watch it happen and do nothing. I love it when believers say men have a choice. I mean it says in the bible that god hardened the pherohs heart to not let the jews go.

And it says that children of the parents who hate god will be punished.

Men do not have free will. god either shows them the light to follow him or hardens their heart so they cannot see.

God has already picked who will enter heaven and who will not so not matter how good you are and how much you love Jesus if you are one of the one god has assigned other than heaven you are not going.

Honey your Judeo-christian god does not exist. It is a fable a fairy tale to keep you in line and to control you. You live in an illusion.. a dream.

In your bible god has absolutly control over everything that man does. Man does not have free will of the heart. God already choses what is in their heart and then men act (free will) upon what is in his heart.

So spare me.

Sorry the god I believe in would not sit and watch it happen and do nothing.

I'm not trying to stir you up or anything, just wonder what your god would do to stop it? And how? I'm truly curious about that statement.

Proverbs 22:6 says this. "Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it."

I think we all know how Warrior was raised because she's told us many times -- and lo, and behold -- she hasn't strayed far from her upbringing. Still, I can't help but feel sorry for those little innocent children whose heads she fills with lies about God. They don't stand a chance.

BTW, Warrior, where ARE your kids doing while you're on the computer all day?

(Don't get all testy now, it's an honest question and I'm honestly concerned for your children.)

You're saying, if I understand you correctly
You don't.

People use religious teachings to encourage or justify violence and bigotry (such has been the case for thousands of years) and yet you blame only Man for this, not God.
Are you saying, then, that the rape is not wrong?
Wow...

You're saying, if I understand you correctly
You don't.

People use religious teachings to encourage or justify violence and bigotry (such has been the case for thousands of years) and yet you blame only Man for this, not God.

You made my point for me, there Evakian. People. Not God.


Are you saying, then, that the rape is not wrong?
Wow...

And wow means what? Explain further, please.

You made my point for me, there Evakian. People. Not God.
Yay! I just love it when you dance around the question to avoid looking like an idiot. Guess what: You failed.

People use religious teachings to justify violence and bigotry. Where do these teachings come from? God you say?

Oh yes, the Bible in all its violence caused by God in the stories or in the laws within the text calling for violence mean nothing. God is innocent, Man is guilty.

Great.
And wow means what? Explain further, please.
Bugger off.

Sorry the god I believe in would not sit and watch it happen and do nothing. I love it when believers say men have a choice. I mean it says in the bible that god hardened the pherohs heart to not let the jews go.

I didn't think you believed in God.
And you don't have a choice in how you behave? It's all pre-ordained? I don't believe that.

And it says that children of the parents who hate god will be punished.

Most likely by having bad parents. (kidding)

Men do not have free will. god either shows them the light to follow him or hardens their heart so they cannot see.

God has already picked who will enter heaven and who will not so not matter how good you are and how much you love Jesus if you are one of the one god has assigned other than heaven you are not going.

That's predestination you're talking about there. I don't ascribe to that. I feel more that God is all-knowing. It's a different thing. He knows, but he doesn't choose it for us.

Salvation is a gift and noone can earn it through good works, however, we do have the free will to accept the gift.

According to your theory, then, no one is responsible for his/her actions, since God told them to do it.

Honey your Judeo-christian god does not exist. It is a fable a fairy tale to keep you in line and to control you. You live in an illusion.. a dream.

In your bible god has absolutly control over everything that man does. Man does not have free will of the heart. God already choses what is in their heart and then men act (free will) upon what is in his heart.

So spare me.

Awww, you called me Honey. Well, bless your heart, if man does not have free will, as you ascribe, than he cannot do wrong. The world is a perfect place.

:rolleyes:

Yay! I just love it when you dance around the question to avoid looking like an idiot. Guess what: You failed.

People use religious teachings to justify violence and bigotry. Where do these teachings come from? God you say?

Oh yes, the Bible in all its violence caused by God in the stories or in the laws within the text calling for violence mean nothing. God is innocent, Man is guilty.

Great.

Again, it's people who are twisting the teachings.

Bugger off.

Very nice.

Yay! I just love it when you dance around the question to avoid looking like an idiot. Guess what: You failed.

People use religious teachings to justify violence and bigotry. Where do these teachings come from? God you say?

Oh yes, the Bible in all its violence caused by God in the stories or in the laws within the text calling for violence mean nothing. God is innocent, Man is guilty.

Great.

Bugger off.
My favorite thing about atheists is how FRIGGING RUDE they are. Guess that happens when one thinks of themself as the most important entity in the universe.

Ev, after that hateful post, you've got me wondering if you're not really Warrior in drag?

SMW

You didn't piss me off or anything.

Look I do not hate god. I dislike the Judeo-christians versions of him. I personally do not believe that this kind of god existed. If he did I would not follow him.

I believe god is a being could care less what humans do and couldn't bother with worship, praise or thanks. He/she/it/them simply do not have an ego to be stroked.

HUH :) Warrior I have met God and you are right :)

The problem is that "this world" tells us who and what God is. And "this world" is Satan's kindom. Warrior sweetheart :) I think that you have your hands full trying to talk to "this world". And based on my experience the closer that you get to real truth (basically what you posted above) the angrier "this world" gets. And at some point resistance becomes overwhelming. I admire your spunk :) I use to have spunk. Now I am just old.

Tucker58

Proverbs 22:6 says this. "Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it."

I think we all know how Warrior was raised because she's told us many times -- and lo, and behold -- she hasn't strayed far from her upbringing. Still, I can't help but feel sorry for those little innocent children whose heads she fills with lies about God. They don't stand a chance.

BTW, Warrior, where ARE your kids doing while you're on the computer all day?

(Don't get all testy now, it's an honest question and I'm honestly concerned for your children.)


These are lies against god??

God Kills people for no real reason other than they piss him off!

Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26,

Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7

Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10,

For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28

Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3,

A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23

A man who picked up sticks on the Sabbath Num.15:32-36

Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27

Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35,

For complaining Num.16:49

For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9,

Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35,

God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12

God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25,

Joshua kills 5 kings and hangs their dead bodies on trees Joshua 10:24-26,

God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4,

Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22,

God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29,

God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10

The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19

The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15

Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism Jg.16:20

"The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37

More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46

For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19

God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12 20

Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33

"The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Sam.25:38

Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10

David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Sam.12:14-18

Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9

From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13,

A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24

God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29

God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30

God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36

Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9

Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12

God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24

Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20

Jezebel 2 Kg.9:33-37

God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26

Sleeping Assyrian soldiers 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000 770,363+
Saul 1 Chr.10:14

God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chr.13:15-17

Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20

"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14

God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19

Ezekiel's wife Ezek.24:15-18

Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10

Herod Acts 12:23,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
“And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt” (Exodus 7: 3-4).


I do not lie about god. THe bible explaines everything in black in white.

And as for my kids that is non of your fucking business you fucking stupid bitch!! They have Kindergarden and preschool and when they are not there they are thier own computers with learning programs Rain for ABC's and Winter for phonics.
I am not on here 24/7 I log on and off several times a day while going to school and cleaning up the house and fixing, breakfast, lunch and dinner. The house is always spic and span when hubby gets home and I watch CNN to boot.
I am a good multitasker you fucking dildo sucking whore and if you fucking mention my kids again I will take off my fucking verbal gloves. I have been half civil with you so far. I will write to Vile once again and if you do not stop harrassing me I will let lose on you a verbal war you will fucking totally regret. YOU GOT THAT!!!

My favorite thing about atheists is how FRIGGING RUDE they are. Guess that happens when one thinks of themself as the most important entity in the universe.
Pretty much every single post of yours is rude, condescending, spiteful, hateful, antagonizing, et fucking cetera. But it's not really the rudeness and lack of consideration that makes you such an absolute bitch, it's the fact of your two posts in this thread you are both A)SO much better than every body else, and B)fail to ever address what the fuck is going on. Instead you AGAIN antagonize and goad warrior and then make a blanket proclamation about yet another poster. Evak may be an absolute idiot sometimes and therefore covers it up with sarcastic humor he picked up from nappy and joke drops that makes him a cancer of anon, but he at least touched upon the issue in the middle of it. Would you mind keeping your insults in the middle of the fucking issue?

Again, it's people who are twisting the teachings.
From Mark
6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits
6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
6:10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

That seemed pretty straight forward. God will make people suffer, suffer far more than Sodom and Gomorrha, because they disbelieve. All us horrible, rude people.

I'm not trying to stir you up or anything, just wonder what your god would do to stop it? And how? I'm truly curious about that statement.

If I believed in a god he/she/it/them would stop it if he/she/it/them was a "loving" god. Since no one intervenes I conclude there is not god or god simply is so beyond us that he does not care. I believe that if a god exsisted that he/she/it/they are so beyond us and are more concerned with keeping gravity of the Universe and massive stars in line than to care about a cockroach on this planet called earth.

In that case if he/she/it/them have more important things to do then save little girls from molestation, beatings and rape that they also do not care to be worshipped, prayed to or praised.

I mean do I care if a cockroach builds a church in my name? no. They are a bug and as long as they are not in my house investing my food I could care less what they do. If they are being eaten or raping and killing each other do I care..no I have more important things to worry about like bills and school and stuff.

Sorry that is just how I see it if there is a god.

and I will state onces again if the Judeo-christian god was some how real and I seriously doubt because 1.) I think the whole bible was made up to control people 2) we have not seen hide or hair from him in 2,000 years most likely put to death by his kind for the abuse and maltreatment of man kind or sitting in a prison somewhere.

IF this being came back today and started demanding my loyality I would laugh and spit in his face. I am not following that monster anywhere.

Well, bless your heart. You do tend to fly off the handle easily, don't you?

It's so sad how bitter people become when they turn away from God.

HUH :) Warrior I have met God and you are right :)

The problem is that "this world" tells us who and what God is. And "this world" is Satan's kindom. Warrior sweetheart :) I think that you have your hands full trying to talk to "this world". And based on my experience the closer that you get to real truth (basically what you posted above) the angrier "this world" gets. And at some point resistance becomes overwhelming. I admire your spunk :) I use to have spunk. Now I am just old.

Tucker58

too old eh?? LOL I agree the more people undercover the truth the more they cover thier ears and eyes and mouth. It seems the that the truth is evil. Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil.

I always wondered by god did not want us to eat the apple of knowlege?? It has been shown throughout history that the uneducated and dumb are always controlled and used as slaves for the educated and those with knowlege.
That is how we kept the African American slaves for so long we keep them uneducated.
I mean we are perfectly designed for labor.
Why was thinking for ourselves such a sin??

Hmmm

Blob, quit whining. Mary is the sweetest person I know and she doesn't deserve to be talked to like Ev talked to her. If he has something to say about it, I'm sure he will. Nobody needs a 19 yr old kid to tell us all how it is and how it ain't.

Newsflash: YOU'RE NOT IN CONTROL HERE.

Got it? Good.

Well, bless your heart. You do tend to fly off the handle easily, don't you?

It's so sad how bitter people become when they turn away from God.

BITCH YOU MAKE ME BITTER!!

I don't put up with bullshit and you are one fucking steaming pile of it. You are not a christian. Your heart is so filled with satans blood you drool at your next atagonizing words.

If you could only see yourself and how the christians cringe when you are around because you make them all to look like fools. You are the perfect example of what all the atheist,agnostics and any other religion other than christianity do not follow christianity because they it breeds people like you.

Thanks for doing my job for me. Really I must say you make my case so much easier. A prime example as to why people are jumping from the chrisitanity wagon.

Interesting... you think there's really a Satan?

It's interesting that the atheists need to "attack" so vigorously when they feel the believers do not agree with them.

So you don't agree. Fine. I have tried to be respectful in my answers to both Warrior and Evakian.

But I still wonder about Warrior's original hypothesis about the young girl being raped. In her eyes, it's God's fault for not intervening, for not stopping this tragedy, therefore God is "raping" the little girl.

But the man actually doing the act is not responsible? I cannot follow this logic.

No one has explained to me how God is responsible for the person doing the evil.

And frankly, warrior, calling people bitch and using other poor language, does nothing to further your point of view.

But I still wonder about Warrior's original hypothesis about the young girl being raped. In her eyes, it's God's fault for not intervening, for not stopping this tragedy, therefore God is "raping" the little girl.

But the man actually doing the act is not responsible? I cannot follow this logic.

No one has explained to me how God is responsible for the person doing the evil.

And frankly, warrior, calling people bitch and using other poor language, does nothing to further your point of view.
Personally I think using the raping example introduces unnecessary complication to the point it was trying to make. Better example would be natural disasters that indiscriminately kill lots of people. In that sense, free will can be ignored in trying to answer the question of "why a good god would let things like this happen?" .

Warrior, this type of example is often used by non-believers to "prove" that if God were a loving God, he would not allow these types of things to happen. Since they do happen, He must not be a loving God.

But I would say, that what it proves is that man is depraved. The little girl is innocent, but the man perpetrating the act certainly is not. He had a choice to not do this. And chose to act in a way that is evil. And when people make evil choices, the innocent suffer.

An alternative would be to not allow people to make choices. To make the world so that no one could do wrong, ever.

And believers feel that this was the way the world was until the Fall. Even with free choice. However, when mankind turned away from God and chose to follow what they thought was right, chaos ensued.

I detest what is happening in the world. I detest what is happening in this country everywhere, where children are not loved, and cared for, but are tossed away almost daily. Where strong relationships and marriages are not something to be desired, but money, sex, power are. Families are not considered to be desirable, only romantic sex and youth and "chemistry" are important.

But I don't blame God for the condition of the world. I blame Man.

(((((((((((((((((((((( The Summa Contra Gentiles III ))))))))))))))))))))))))
" If God had deprived the world of all these things which proved
an occasion of sin,the universe would have been imperfect.Nor
was it fitting for the common good to be destroyed in order that
individual evil might be avoided,especially as God is so powerful
that He can directy any evil to a good end. " Ch.LXXI
-- St.Thomas Aquinas

No I did not say it was gods fault you are misunderstanding. I am saying that either god does not care because he/she/it/them have more important Universal things to worry about then us or he does not exist.

I do not blame god for the raping of a child or the molestation from several pediphiles and the physical, emotional and verbal abuse of my mother on me. What I blame is that I would taught god would save me by the chrisitan churches I went to. I was taught this false hope that if I prayed and was good that god would help me and he didn't. When I realized it wasn't real I felt very betrayed by the whole farse religion of Christianity. I am angry at the false teaching of christianity and giving false hope to people of the existance of this all mighty being that will save you if you are faithful.
I am not mad at god. I simply do not believe in him. The judeo-christian version of god is a twisted pyschopath and I try to point that out not because I am mad at him or believe he exists but because I want people to see the truth.
God is responsible for people doing evil because he allows satan to do his work by your teachings. God lets Satan do things to us because is more powerful than satan if you believe in that stuff.

I will call bitches as I see them.

If you can't understand what I am trying to say you never will.

Personally I think using the raping example introduces unnecessary complication to the point it was trying to make. Better example would be natural disasters that indiscriminately kill lots of people. In that sense, free will can be ignored in trying to answer the question of "why a good god would let things like this happen?" .

Much better question. Ever read The Bridge of San Luis Rey?

I am angry at the false teaching of christianity and giving false hope to people of the existance of this all mighty being that will save you if you are faithful.

When you prayed to be saved, what were you praying for exactly, warrior, if you don't mind sharing?

I'm sorry you felt betrayed by your faith.

Personally I think using the raping example introduces unnecessary complication to the point it was trying to make. Better example would be natural disasters that indiscriminately kill lots of people. In that sense, free will can be ignored in trying to answer the question of "why a good god would let things like this happen?" .

To them we are exposed to tragedy because Eve ate the apple of knowlege and we got kicked out of eden and our punishment was to be exposed to think like sickness and natural disasters.

Once again the children of the parents who sinned against god gets punished forever for thier doing and thier responsiblity.

That simply will never make sense to me. Why my children should die of a terrible pleage or rape and torture because god is pist at me. I mean it is mob mentality. It is what mobsters do to people who snitch they kill your family who is competely innocent to hurt you and make you suffer.

It is just not ethical to punish the innocent for the sins of the father or mother in order to emotionally punish the parent.

And this is suppose to make us closer to god? we are not suppose to recent this?? we are suppose to just take in the ass bow our heads and say "well god does know best"

whatever:rolleyes:

Much better question. Ever read The Bridge of San Luis Rey?
No.

The little girl getting raped is undeniably a "bad" thing, however, it can still fit into God's plan. People who use this argument are hopelessly shortsighted as to the nature of this plan. This thing has been working out for billions and billions of years, and that one bad act was a tiny tiny little piece. People think that if something happens for a reason, that reason must be evident. In reality, the larger effect of that little girl getting raped may not be seen for another 10,000 years, and still nobody would be able to trace it to that particular act.


An example to prove my point: the very fact that you exist. how many events had to occur in the precisely correct order at a precisely correct time in order for you to exist? The answer probably traces back all the way to the beginning of time. Your parents had to have sex at a precise time in order to achieve your conception, but first they had to meet, perhaps during WWII. For WWII to occur, hitler had to achieve power. Before he could achieve power, he had to survive WWI...etc? You see my point? It's like starting at the end of a chess game and trying to figure out how it started.

In any event, the fact that it is good and bad should have no weight. God is omnipotent, God is eternal, God is perfect. These are absolute qualities; they are objective; they are definite. Good, Bad, merciful, vengeful, these are all subjective qualities, and are totally inaccurate to describe the nature of the Divine.

Just my 3 cents.

The little girl getting raped is undeniably a "bad" thing, however, it can still fit into God's plan. People who use this argument are hopelessly shortsighted as to the nature of this plan. This thing has been working out for billions and billions of years, and that one bad act was a tiny tiny little piece. People think that if something happens for a reason, that reason must be evident. In reality, the larger effect of that little girl getting raped may not be seen for another 10,000 years, and still nobody would be able to trace it to that particular act.


An example to prove my point: the very fact that you exist. how many events had to occur in the precisely correct order at a precisely correct time in order for you to exist? The answer probably traces back all the way to the beginning of time. Your parents had to have sex at a precise time in order to achieve your conception, but first they had to meet, perhaps during WWII. For WWII to occur, hitler had to achieve power. Before he could achieve power, he had to survive WWI...etc? You see my point? It's like starting at the end of a chess game and trying to figure out how it started.

In any event, the fact that it is good and bad should have no weight. God is omnipotent, God is eternal, God is perfect. These are absolute qualities; they are objective; they are definite. Good, Bad, merciful, vengeful, these are all subjective qualities, and are totally inaccurate to describe the nature of the Divine.

Just my 3 cents.

Pretty good post, Evil Homer. Makes sense to me.

No.

Um, well what do you read?

Um, well what do you read?
Usually articles and non-fiction. Rarely novels these days.

When you prayed to be saved, what were you praying for exactly, warrior, if you don't mind sharing?

I'm sorry you felt betrayed by your faith.

I cried every night for weeks hiding in my room. You have no idea how a 13 year old feels when the preditor at your bedroom door is your own mother. She was never a very loving mother but when she would drink and there was a point where you could see in her eyes her rage snap and you knew you were in for a beating. It was impossible to avoid. She would start by complaining about how the dishes where not done right or the clothes where not folded right. The more you tried to defend yourself the more you enraged her. She would accuse me of sleeping with the next door neighbor "You want ot fuck him don't you, you fucking whore" such things.. the more you denied it the more she got enraged and then came the punches on the side of the head. You see she was real smart she knew to hit you in the head an not in the face not to leave bruises. One I got my head beat into the frame of the window seal. Some times I could hide in my room when I knew she was going to be drinking and pretend I was a sleep. Sometimes I would be in bed as early as 7pm. You have no idea the horror of her coming into your room hovering over you and praying to god she would not realize she was faking being alseep. I was afraid to even breath. I prayed for weeks for it to end and each night it began a new.
I would cry with tears in my eyes "please, please god make it stop"
"please make it go away" "please have someone save me" "Let someone see what she does to us"
but nothing ever happened and for a long time I thought it must be because I was a bad person. That some how what my mom has said was true that I wasn't worth shit. "I thought I am not worth it to god I guess." "Maybe I have done something wrong"

But as I got older I got more knowledge about other religions such as buddhism, hinduism and wiccan and my mind began to expand on the concept on the concept of what "god" is and isn't and the possibility that he didn't come save me because he did not exist.

Then I looked at the terrible things that Christianity did to pagans and the wiccan religion and I began to study more about the bible and study things like evolution and the truth about the crusades and the more education I got about christianity the more I realized it was a farse.

I found better religions like buddhism which I find to be the best but I stick with wiccan because they are the underdog. No other religion in the world has been so slandered and defamated than the wiccan religion. I stick with them because I fight for the underdog and they need as many supporters as possible. Buddhism is fairly popular and well protected so they really do not need my help but wiccans. I mean a wiccan cannot walk around with a pentagram on thier shirt or a pentragram on their door without threats of violents or eviction from thier home because the christians have defamated thier religion to the point that the masses think it is evil and satantic and it is farthest from the truth.

The little girl getting raped is undeniably a "bad" thing, however, it can still fit into God's plan. People who use this argument are hopelessly shortsighted as to the nature of this plan. This thing has been working out for billions and billions of years, and that one bad act was a tiny tiny little piece. People think that if something happens for a reason, that reason must be evident. In reality, the larger effect of that little girl getting raped may not be seen for another 10,000 years, and still nobody would be able to trace it to that particular act.


An example to prove my point: the very fact that you exist. how many events had to occur in the precisely correct order at a precisely correct time in order for you to exist? The answer probably traces back all the way to the beginning of time. Your parents had to have sex at a precise time in order to achieve your conception, but first they had to meet, perhaps during WWII. For WWII to occur, hitler had to achieve power. Before he could achieve power, he had to survive WWI...etc? You see my point? It's like starting at the end of a chess game and trying to figure out how it started.

In any event, the fact that it is good and bad should have no weight. God is omnipotent, God is eternal, God is perfect. These are absolute qualities; they are objective; they are definite. Good, Bad, merciful, vengeful, these are all subjective qualities, and are totally inaccurate to describe the nature of the Divine.

Just my 3 cents.

you are welcomed to your 3 cents
I simply do not think it is a humane way to run things.
I mean I kill a dog to keep it from meeting or ever mating with another dog because I for see if that happens than A or B will happen. I mean why not lock the dog up somewhere instead. Why do you have to kill it.
Why does the girl have to be raped to created a certian time line to have events A and B happen in a certain way.
it is a very cruel way to create certian events of the future. There are other more humane ways to do things especailly if you are so massively intelligent to deign the Universe.

I agree the more people undercover the truth the more they cover thier ears and eyes and mouth. It seems the that the truth is evil. Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil.



Everyone has trouble finding the truth. You talk about your past and the pills you take to over come it. Here I sit, pill free and at one time so overcome with bipolar disorder all I could do was sit and drool. The answer isnt in what you know, its in what you can know.
You look at people with labels before you even get to know them. Thats not reality, thats your short sightedness keeping you from cementing yourself in reality.
Which is the only thing that will cure you.
The labels are holding you down like so much bullshit. You cant fight through but you can dig yourself out of it.
Put aside everything that has to do with God. Because Im not talking about him, I'm talking about you and this is a personal conversation that has nothing to do with God or religion.
It has to do with peace of mind.

Everyone has something you can learn from them and you wont know that until you stop looking at them as something they'er not and just see people for that, people.
Dont spout off and tell me how Christians see people. Thats the bullshit keeping you down.
When I speak with people I listen, doesnt matter what they'er saying and it doesnt matter who they are. Atheist, Wiccan, Agnostic, Catholc...
All freinds of mine and not for any other reason then they are people and they obtain knowledge that I can learn from. Thats what keeps me in reality and that knowledge is constant and flowing. I'm always learning from it and the more I know the more bullshit I can push aside and free myself from the pain that ignorance brings. The ignornace forced on me by other people with cruel intentions and even more ignorant then I was when I started this quest for knowledge.
Youre not going to know who those people are, the labels will keep you confused and it will keep you from learning.

may I add again that my husband is christian. I do not label him. I love him and he is a moderate. I see people for who they are not thier labels but when I speak of evolution and then people start laughing and calling me an ape 9 times out of 10 it is a christian.
Their remarks and ignorance speaks for themselves and shows me they are not moderates but zeolots and they label themselves.
many athiest do nothing more than promote science and humainities and they are attacked and oppressed and told they lack morals and ethics because the zeolets see the truth as an attack on christianity.

They label themselves. I do not have to label them.

As for my pills they do not heal me the help take the edge off of the symptoms so I can heal at a faster speed. Which I think people would want since I am on disability and on tax dollars. No one should have to live with panic attacks on a dialy basis. Perhaps you have never felt one of those but they are quite severe. You are more than welcome to be "tuff" and "Macho" and not take the pills but I will thank you. I do not believe in suffering anymore than I have to that is what technology and science is for. You suffer from the symptoms all you want that is your business but do not belittle me because I choose to make my life bareable.

may I add again that my husband is christian. I do not label him. I love him and he is a moderate. I see people for who they are not thier labels but when I speak of evolution and then people start laughing and calling me an ape 9 times out of 10 it is a christian.
Their remarks and ignorance speaks for themselves and shows me they are not moderates but zeolots and they label themselves.
many athiest do nothing more than promote science and humainities and they are attacked and oppressed and told they lack morals and ethics because the zeolets see the truth as an attack on christianity.

They label themselves. I do not have to label them.

As for my pills they do not heal me the help take the edge off of the symptoms so I can heal at a faster speed. Which I think people would want since I am on disability and on tax dollars. No one should have to live with panic attacks on a dialy basis. Perhaps you have never felt one of those but they are quite severe. You are more than welcome to be "tuff" and "Macho" and not take the pills but I will thank you. I do not believe in suffering anymore than I have to that is what technology and science is for. You suffer from the symptoms all you want that is your business but do not belittle me because I choose to make my life bareable.


You missed the point entirely. Who says your husband is "moderate"? Do you? Why does there even have to be a moderate christian?
Maybe theres just people who dont understand what your husband understands, myabe theres people who know things your husband doesnt.
But you wont know because you see your husband as "moderate"
And because you wont know you will need pills. Because you cant learn and if you cant learn you cant understand and if you cant understand you cant heal.
I'm not tuffing it out. I'm not taking pills because I dont need them.
I dont need them because I am to a point of understanding that has brought me beyond the use of them.
If all you see is the pain then you'll always need pills. And all you will see is the pain until you understand why.
But you wont understand why, until you understand people and you wont understand people until you stop seeing them as moderate.

you are welcomed to your 3 cents
I simply do not think it is a humane way to run things.
I mean I kill a dog to keep it from meeting or ever mating with another dog because I for see if that happens than A or B will happen. I mean why not lock the dog up somewhere instead. Why do you have to kill it.
Why does the girl have to be raped to created a certian time line to have events A and B happen in a certain way.
it is a very cruel way to create certian events of the future. There are other more humane ways to do things especailly if you are so massively intelligent to deign the Universe.

You miss my point. My point is that you can't predict what consequences will arise. Just because you can't see the reason, doesn't mean it isn't there, just as a worm living in a garden can't fathom why I transplant and move plants around my garden.

It's not a question of humanity or cruelty, but more a question of logic. I know it sounds cold, but it's objective. Feelings and opinions are subjective, and thus imperfect. For God to be truely Divine, it must also be void of that which is not absolute. Personally, I don't believe in an active willing God, but a passive "spark God". God set up the natural laws at the creation of the universe, and these natural laws have since governed every single event, no matter how minute, since.

Just a few more cents.

Sounds cool. I think a bit differently than you do and I agree that he/she/it/them or not an active willing god thus I do not believe that the stuff written about the Judeo-christian god is real. too much involvement. I agree a worm would not know why a gardner moves a plant and uproots his whole family or cuts her daughter in half with the spade while scooping up the plant. There was not malice or anything the worm did just a victim of circumstance.

Your view is very interesting. Thank you.

The little girl getting raped is undeniably a "bad" thing, however, it can still fit into God's plan.

Oh yes. Good point.

Absolutely. The rape of a girl CAN fit into "God's plans".

But then, so can hacking several hundred infants to death with swords.

So can the forceful taking of many hundreds of women as unwilling concubines/slaves.

So can the indiscriminate slaughter of thousands of herd animals.

So can wiping out entire cities, and slaughtering every living, breathing human and animal in those cities.

There are an infinite number of attrocities and horrors --if we are to believe the writings contained in the Bible-- that will fit perfectly into the plans of the "loving" god of the Christians.

You missed the point entirely. Who says your husband is "moderate"? Do you? Why does there even have to be a moderate christian?
Maybe theres just people who dont understand what your husband understands, myabe theres people who know things your husband doesnt.
But you wont know because you see your husband as "moderate"
And because you wont know you will need pills. Because you cant learn and if you cant learn you cant understand and if you cant understand you cant heal.
I'm not tuffing it out. I'm not taking pills because I dont need them.
I dont need them because I am to a point of understanding that has brought me beyond the use of them.
If all you see is the pain then you'll always need pills. And all you will see is the pain until you understand why.
But you wont understand why, until you understand people and you wont understand people until you stop seeing them as moderate.

Moderates don't attack people for believing in evolution. They agree to disagree. Moderates to not make it thier lifes work to convence you to be saved. My husband does not harass me to go to church or have Jesus in my heart. He respects my choice and does not intervere with my belief system and I do not with him. Moderates love you whether you are pagan or athiest or even satanist. They have unconditional love for you even if you set yourself on a self destructive trail. They let you learn on your own instead of trying to force you on another path thier "view" of the right way to get whereever it is we are going.

As for not taking my pills. Before I took my pills I slept in the closet and on the floor and under the bed because of the fear of someone breaking in and hurting me. Before I was on my medication I slept in front of the frontroom door on the floor crawled up like a dog with a 9" knife in my hand to defend my family from and irrational fear of an intruder breaking in my home. Before I was on medication I was drinking a bottle of wine every night and maybe some snapps on top of that.
before I had medication I was waking up 8-10 times a night to check on my daugher to make sure she was still breathing because I was scared to death she would die of SIDs and I was checking the stove to make sure it was off because in my mind it played over and over again that it was left on and the house would burn down and my babies would burn up because I might have left it on.
I was not sleeping at night and I had night terrors that would make your worst fears look like Disney land.
You have no idea what I was going through you are not a pyschologist and understand nothing about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I have bi-polar too and it is nothing compared to the PTSD. Excess obssessive occupations for weeks at a time on certian things and then weeks of depression of which you can't even get out of your bed.
Nothing compares to not being able to breath and the walls sufficating around you without warning. The sudden rush of adrynalline in your body that make you jump at the slightest noise or when someone walks around the corner and you jump.
You have nothing compared to what I suffer from and I will not sit there and go through that on a daily basis if I can take a pill that helps me sleep at night and not be terrified.
No one should have to suffer that because someone like you claim that I do not need the medication. You are nothing. You are not educated on mental illness and you do not have a pHD in the subject.

[QUOTE=Freethinker]Oh yes. Good point.

Absolutely. The rape of a girl CAN fit into "God's plans".

******************************************
So then,You believe in a God.?

No one should have to suffer that because someone like you claim that I do not need the medication. You are nothing. You are not educated on mental illness and you do not have a pHD in the subject.

I didnt say you dont need to take them. I said you have it in you to get to a point in your life when you wont need them.

Besides, how do you know I dont have a phd on the subject?
I dont, but thats not the point. I could know something you dont and I could choose to give you the information simply because I dont want you to suffer.
But you wouldnt know that because you have made up your mind I am something I may not be, before you have even gotten to know me.

Thats what I've been saying.

Evak may be an absolute idiot sometimes and therefore covers it up with sarcastic humor he picked up from nappy
Whoa whoa there sailor boy. As much as we all love you pretending to be a tough guy, that doesn't make you right. My sense of humor isn't the same as Nappy's nor is it derived from it.

Oh yes. Good point.

Absolutely. The rape of a girl CAN fit into "God's plans".

But then, so can hacking several hundred infants to death with swords.

So can the forceful taking of many hundreds of women as unwilling concubines/slaves.

So can the indiscriminate slaughter of thousands of herd animals.

So can wiping out entire cities, and slaughtering every living, breathing human and animal in those cities.

There are an infinite number of attrocities and horrors --if we are to believe the writings contained in the Bible-- that will fit perfectly into the plans of the "loving" god of the Christians.


Is it really so bad to believe that things have a greater purpose? Or do you find it more fufilling to believe that man is inherently evil and that everything that occurs is chaos, and has no purpose other than to exist?

I didnt say you dont need to take them. I said you have it in you to get to a point in your life when you wont need them.

Besides, how do you know I dont have a phd on the subject?
I dont, but thats not the point. I could know something you dont and I could choose to give you the information simply because I dont want you to suffer.
But you wouldnt know that because you have made up your mind I am something I may not be, before you have even gotten to know me.

Thats what I've been saying.

Who said I would be on them forever. I never said that. I am in active therapy 4 times a month and have come a long way since 3years ago. I still have much further to go about another 3 years are active aggressive therapy but I am not just popping pills and not working on recovery. They do not want to to have to depend on the pills forever well the drug companies do but the therapist I see does not foresee me using them for the rest of my life. Once I change the neural pathways in my brain and train my brain to think in another way on constant basis they will wean me off the drugs and I will have been trained have coping skills in my tool box to deal with life without them

Blob, quit whining. Mary is the sweetest person I know and she doesn't deserve to be talked to like Ev talked to her. If he has something to say about it, I'm sure he will. Nobody needs a 19 yr old kid to tell us all how it is and how it ain't.

Newsflash: YOU'RE NOT IN CONTROL HERE.

Got it? Good.Bizarre comment, SMW. I haven't even spoken with Mary in this thread.

Sorry you're confused, Blob. YOU jumped on ME because I jumped on EV because HE was rude to MARY.

In other words, you stuck your nose in where it didn't belong, and took a few cheap shots at ME while you were at it.

However, you'd do good to speak to Mary. She's one of the brightest people I know.

:)
SMW
SMW.

It was 'blibblob' who was rude to msmary, not Blob. Two different people.

You're semi-correct, Imp... it was actually BLIBBLOB who was rude to ME and although I responded back to him, I shortened his name to BLOB, which of course lead Blob to believe I was responding to HIM.

Not to further confuse the issue, but...

EV was the one who was rude to MARY, not either one of the Blobs. So this whole fiasco is Ev's fault. *wink*

:)
SMW

Bizarre comment, SMW. I haven't even spoken with Mary in this thread.
Pardon me, Blob. I intended that post for BLIBBLOB... not you. I have a bad habit of shortening people's IDs and this time it got me into trouble.

(Who'd a thunk Blob would be such a popular name for boys this year?)

:)
SMW

Oh yes. Good point.

Absolutely. The rape of a girl CAN fit into "God's plans".

******************************************
So then,You believe in a God.?


Is this the post I'm supposed to respond to, Mr. Fool?

I'm thinking that Freethinker was saying no, he doesn't believe in God.

It was meant to be contemptuous.

Pardon me, Blob. I intended that post for BLIBBLOB... not you. I have a bad habit of shortening people's IDs and this time it got me into trouble.

(Who'd a thunk Blob would be such a popular name for boys this year?)

:)
SMWlol, no problem.

Mind you, your comment did have me guiltily checking every page of this thread before I responded... ;)