The images on television have been heartbreaking.

People on fire leaping to their deaths from a hundred stories up. People in panic and fear racing from the scene in clouds of dust and smoke.

We knew that there must be thousands of human beings buried alive, but soon dead under a mountain of debris. We can only imagine the terror among the passengers of the hijacked planes as they contemplated the crash, the fire, the end. Those scenes horrified and sickened me.

Then our political leaders came on television, and I was horrified and sickened again. They spoke of retaliation, of vengeance, of punishment.

We are at war, they said. And I thought: they have learned nothing, absolutely nothing, from the history of the twentieth century, from a hundred years of retaliation, vengeance, war, a hundred years of terrorism and counter-terrorism, of violence met with violence in an unending cycle of stupidity.

We can all feel a terrible anger at whoever, in their insane idea that this would help their cause, killed thousands of innocent people. But what do we do with that anger? Do we react with panic, strike out violently and blindly just to show how tough we are? "We shall make no distinction," the President proclaimed, "between terrorists and countries that harbor terrorists." Will we now bomb Afghanistan, and inevitably kill innocent people, because it is in the nature of bombing to be indiscriminate, to "make no distinction"? Will we then be committing terrorism in order to "send a message" to terrorists?

We have done that before. It is the old way of thinking, the old way of acting. It has never worked. Reagan bombed Libya, and Bush made war on Iraq, and Clinton bombed Afghanistan and also a pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan, to "send a message" to terrorists. And then comes this horror in New York and Washington. Isn't it clear by now that sending a message to terrorists through violence doesn't work, only leads to more terrorism?

Haven't we learned anything from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Car bombs planted by Palestinians bring air attacks and tanks by the Israeli government. That has been going on for years. It doesn't work.

And innocent people die on both sides.

Yes, it is an old way of thinking, and we need new ways. We need to think about the resentment all over the world felt by people who have been the victims of American military action. In Vietnam, where we carried out terrorizing bombing attacks, using napalm and cluster bombs,on peasant villages. In Latin America, where we supported dictators and death squads in Chile and El Salvador and other countries. In Iraq, where a million people have died as a result of our economic sanctions, And, perhaps most important for understanding the current situation, in the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza, where a million and more Palestinians live under a cruel military occupation, while our government supplies Israel with high-tech weapons.

We need to imagine that the awful scenes of death and suffering we are now witnessing on our television screens have been going on in other parts of the world for a long time, and only now can we begin to know what people have gone through, often as a result of our policies. We need to understand how some of those people will go beyond quiet anger to acts of terrorism.

We need new ways of thinking. A $300 billion dollar military budget has not given us security. Military bases all over the world, our warships on every ocean, have not given us security. Land mines and a "missile defense shield" will not give us security. We need to rethink our position in the world. We need to stop sending weapons to countries that oppress other people or their own people. We need to decide that we will not go to war, whatever reason is conjured up by the politicians or the media, because war in our time is always indiscriminate, a war against innocents, a war against children. War is terrorism, magnified a hundred times.

Our security can only come by using our national wealth, not for guns, planes, bombs, but for the health and welfare of our people - for free medical care for everyone, education and housing guaranteed, decent wages and a clean environment for all. We can not be secure by limiting our liberties, as some of our political leaders are demanding, but only by expanding them.

We should take our example not from our military and political leaders shouting "retaliate" and "war" but from the doctors and nurses and medical students and firemen and policemen who have been saving lives in the midst of mayhem, whose first thoughts are not violence, but healing, not vengeance, but compassion.

"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is that numbers of people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war, and millions have been killed because of this obedience. . . Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem." --Howard Zinn

"Wealth governs this country, and wealth uses military violence to control the rest of the world the best it can. And we're responsible. And we will pay the price for it." - former US Attorney General, Ramsey Clark

This is another anti-war discussion in which the last one you had a temper and stopped debating because you lost.

I lost in your opinion but that’s not much. I never lose my temper in a discussion because I look at it this way you have the right to state your opinion just as much as I do and I respect that. I don't go around pulling peoples karma points off because I disagree with something they have to say. I state my opinion strongly and you find it offensive that’s your problem it's not me throwing some sort of fit. Let’s stay on topic from now on or just don't bother posting. Also you seem to have a problem with the anti-war movement. You don't see what happens to the innocent civilians. You're blinded by this nation that hurts millions to benefit a few. You're angry at what terrorist did but you support terrorism by supporting the "war on terrorism". It's hypocritical to support this war and not call your self a terrorist. We have used weaponry before. Has it worked? No. So maybe it's time you stop being obedient and try to find alternative ways to war. Until then you’re the terrorist.

First off I NEVER remove karma points from anyone because I disagree with their opinion, I deduct ONLY if I feel they are being explicitly rude to another person, spamming, etc.. Although I can't control the way anyone else distributes Karma..

[b:35741d77f8]NO ONE can say war is never necessary[/b:35741d77f8]. During world war 2 if we, and the rest of the world, had not stopped hitler he would have continued to kill Jews and take over the rest of the world killing people. HOW COULD YOU DARE SAY IT WASNT NECESSARY?!

JWB I will respond to your comments when I get a chance. This week has been hectic with family issues I had to take care of but none the less I will respond when I get time.

Well, I've certainly seen better arguments for a 'no war' foreign policy.

The fact of the matter is that there is no way, besides war, to prevent al Qaeda from recreating 911. They weren't going to stop before, and they certainly are not going to stop now that we've blown their caves to dust.

:tank:

JWB you left me with a very interesting question. I've thought hard about this as I do my other post. I think there needed to be a war against Hitler. I dislike the way are military conducted its self through the war. We had alternative methods of taking the Hitler region down but we decided not you use them.

Homer Simpson if you would have read carefully I clearly stated "Reagan bombed Libya, and Bush made war on Iraq, and Clinton bombed Afghanistan and also a pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan, to "send a message" to terrorists. And then comes this horror in New York and Washington. Isn't it clear by now that sending a message to terrorists through violence doesn't work, only leads to more terrorism? Haven't we learned anything from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Car bombs planted by Palestinians bring air attacks and tanks by the Israeli government. That has been going on for years. It doesn't work. And innocent people die on both sides."

Instead of using money to kill it's time we use it to help. Like I stated we need to rethink are position in the world. We need to stop sending weapons to countries that oppress other people or their own people. We need to decide that we will not go to war, whatever reason is conjured up by the politicians or the media, because war in our time is always indiscriminate, a war against innocents, and a war against children. War is terrorism, magnified a hundred times. It's time to use an alternative method. Our security can only come by using our national wealth, not for guns, planes, bombs, but for the health and welfare of our people - for free medical care for everyone, education and housing guaranteed, decent wages and a clean environment for all. We can not be secure by limiting our liberties, as some of our political leaders are demanding, but only by expanding them. If we do this we will not have hate over the world. We will not have people killing to gain power or money. We will be one step closer to peace.

You say you have seen better arguments for foreign policy. Your argument is not all that great you could not convince a fly with that.

[quote:7b29f70948]JWB you left me with a very interesting question. I've thought hard about this as I do my other post. I think there needed to be a war against Hitler.[/quote:7b29f70948]

Good, and Osama bin Laden, and other Arab crazies like Sadaam could get just like hittler, powerful and almost taking over the world.

We can fight Osama Bin Laden with out using weapons. Sadaam Hussein (sp) has not been connected to any of the current terrorist attacks so that point is stupid. Afghanistan and many other 3rd world countries are some what jealous. They know America has running water, clothing, food, air condition, and many other things we take for granted. In Afghanistan there are reports of them eating crushed grass for food. Its simple wouldn’t you be jealous. Wouldn’t you be upset if you where in a war and then a country pulled out on you. The plane crashes were to make a political statement as bad as it was they still did it. So by giving them proper care it will decrease the hatred towards America.

I totally agree with you here CY. This war which really isn't war but more of the US bullying other countries is just the wrong way to go about the whole problem.
IMO this whole thing could be solved by completely revamping the US foreign policies. If the US government didn't behave in such an arrogant imperialist fashion those countries wouldn't hate us as much and there would consequently be no reason for the existence of terrorism.

--------Our security can only come by using our national wealth, not for guns, planes, bombs, but for the health and welfare of our people - for free medical care for everyone, education and housing guaranteed, decent wages and a clean environment for all.---------- that sounds a whole heck of a lot like communism CY. if everyone had "decent wages" no matter what they did, where the freak is the motivation to excell. have u ever seen the movie Office Space? (i think thats the name, i'm not completely sure) well this guy knows that if he works his butt off, he won't get rewarded for it, so he only works hard enough to not get fired. thats what it would be like, only multiplied by thousands.

i can honestly see some truth in what u guys r saying. however, what would u suggest we do? u said that violence hasn't stopped terrorism, do u honestly think that doin nothing or slapping them on the wrist will? no. i do believe there r times when the government has handled conflicts wrongly. but, i do believe war is necessary, and its hard for me to criticize them when i've never been in that situation to make a choice like that, to where i could do a better job than them. did that make sense? sorry if it didn't.

a lot of the terrorism springs from a hatred towards our freedom. especially religious freedom. i don't see how worshipping in the way we deem fit is being imperialist. would u suggest getting rid of that freedom as an alternative to war? so that therefore, there would be less terrorist attacks?

[quote:0e54d11fad="VBallAngel4377"]
u said that violence hasn't stopped terrorism, do u honestly think that doin nothing or slapping them on the wrist will?[/quote:0e54d11fad]
No, but redoing our foreign policy and actually listening to what other countries have to say instead of just imposing our will on them will. This whole policeman of the world BS has just gone too far. That's why those countries hate us. Our government staffed with greedy imperialists has gone poncing around and thereby caused a lot of middle eastern countries to hate us. This system is obviously not working we have been attacked multiple times and it will happen again unless the US government either decides the USA will become a police state or unless they finally do the right thing and start being nice to other countries.

JWB: I agree that by 1940, there was nothing to do but attack Nazi Germany and bring an end to Hitler's terrible reign. War was required....[i:d0a3979d56]at that point in time[/i:d0a3979d56]. After WWI, America found themselves immensely rich and one of the most powerful countries in existance. Germany is a desolated, poor country. We saw how Lenin capitalized on Russia's poverty to lead them to a revolt just 20 years prior to Germany's economic downfall after WWI's conclusion. So why didn't we supply Germany with reconstruction money? Because it wasn't in our interests. Had we done that, provided better care and lifestyle for all, the masses of Germany wouldn't of felt a need or cause for revolution, and Hitler never would of taken power.

My views. And i respect yours. I think you're right that some times war is needed, and nothing else. But I also think that many times those times can be prevented if we do something about it prior to.