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Callous
04-25-2007, 05:29 PM
Here we again another right for life case only this time a baby.

By Elizabeth Cohen
CNN
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AUSTIN, Texas (CNN) -- When Emilio Gonzales lies in his mother's arms, sometimes he'll make a facial expression that his mother says is a smile.

But the nurse who's standing right next to her thinks he's grimacing in pain.

Which one it is -- an expression of happiness or of suffering -- is a crucial point in an ethical debate that has pitted the mother of a dying child against a children's hospital, and medical ethicists against each other.

Emilio is 17 months old and has a rare genetic disorder that's ravaging his central nervous system. He cannot see, speak, or eat. A ventilator breathes for him in the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit at Austin Children's Hospital, where he's been since December. Without the ventilator, Emilio would die within hours.

The hospital contends that keeping Emilio alive on a ventilator is painful for the toddler and useless against his illness -- Leigh's disease, a rare degenerative disorder that has no cure.

Under Texas law, Children's has the right to withdraw life support if medical experts deem it medically inappropriate.
Emilio's mother, Catarina Gonzales, on the other hand, is fighting to keep her son on the ventilator, allowing him to die "naturally, the way God intended."

The two sides have been in and out of courts, with the next hearing scheduled for May 8.

The case, and the Texas law, have divided medical ethicists. Art Caplan, an ethicist at the University of Pennsylvania, supports the Texas law giving the hospital the right to make life or death decisions even if the family disagrees. "There are occasions when family members just don't get it right," he said. "No parent should have the right to cause suffering to a kid in a futile situation."

But Dr. Lainie Ross, a pediatrician and medical ethicist at the University of Chicago, says she thinks Emilio's mother, not the doctors, should be able to decide whether Emilio's life is worth living. "Who am I to judge what's a good quality of life?" she said. "If this were my kid, I'd have pulled the ventilator months ago, but this isn't my kid."

The law, signed in 1999 by then-Gov. George W. Bush, gives Texas hospitals the authority to stop treatment if doctors say the treatment is "inappropriate" -- even if the family wants the medical care to continue. The statute was inspired by a growing debate in medical and legal communities over when to declare medical treatment futile.

Dr. Ross says that under the law, some dozen times hospitals have pulled the plug against the family's wishes. She says more often than not, the law is used against poor families. "The law is going to be used more commonly against poor, vulnerable populations. If this family could pay for a nurse to take care of the boy at home, we wouldn't be having this conversation," she said.

Emilio is on Medicaid, which usually doesn't pay for all hospital charges. The hospital's spokesman said that he doesn't know how much it's costing the hospital to keep Emilio alive, but that cost was not a consideration in the hospital's decision.

"[Our medical treatments] are inflicting suffering," said Michael Regier, senior vice president for legal affairs and general counsel for the Seton Family of Hospitals, of which Austin Children's is a member. "We are inflicting harm on this child. And it's harm that is without a corresponding medical benefit."

"It's one thing to harm a child and know this is something I can cure," he added. "But that's not the case here." Regier says Emilio is unaware of his surroundings, and grimaces in pain. He said the ventilator tube down his throat is painful, as is a therapy in which hospital staff beat on his chest to loosen thick secretions.

But Gonzales says her son is on heavy doses of morphine and not in pain. She said her son does react to her. "I put my finger in his hand, and I'm talking to him, and he'll squeeze it," she says. "Then he'll open his eyes and look at me."

Gonzales said she'll continue to fight for treatment for her son. "I love my kid so much, I have to fight for him," she said. "That's your job -- you fight for your son or your daughter. You don't let nobody push you around or make decisions for you."

I'm pretty sure God if he is God did not intend to have his children die on a ventilator as a natural way to die.

shortstuff
04-25-2007, 05:38 PM
I feel for the plight of these parent. I hope I am never faced with this question. To have my child live or die.

I know it would be in mine and my spouses hands to decide. We would have to debate if there is quality of life for the child and if we are capable of dealing with a slow and painful death, which this child may face.

The child is in no pain due to the morphine. What kind of life is that.
Yes they love their child but love the child enough to do what is best for the child. If there is no cure and no hope then be humane. I would hate to be this family but for me I think letting them go and rest in piece. I feel that would probably be my choice but again it is not my child and not my family. I can only speculate what I would do.

WindWip
04-25-2007, 05:44 PM
Under Texas law, Children's has the right to withdraw life support if medical experts deem it medically inappropriate.
Emilio's mother, Catarina Gonzales, on the other hand, is fighting to keep her son on the ventilator, allowing him to die "naturally, the way God intended."

Naturally would mean without the respirator. The child is going to die, but the mother wants keep the child alive just a little longer. I don't think there is a reason to keep the child on the respirator - if the mother wants to pay out of her own pocket for it though, that's fine.

warrior1972
04-25-2007, 05:54 PM
That is the problem medicaid isn't covering all the bill and she is paying out of pocket but the hospital knows they will never see the money because she is poor.
With that said I think she is wrong to keep the baby alive and suffering but I cannot help to feel that if she had her own insurance they wouldn't be so willing to take the baby off the resperator.

I life is a life no matter what the cost to the people or the community.

Travh20
04-25-2007, 05:55 PM
just as long as that life conforms to what people like you consider life. other wise suck out thier brains!

shortstuff
04-25-2007, 06:09 PM
I life is a life no matter what the cost to the people or the community.


Yes true but is this a life that is livable. If they turn that life support off the baby will die. Sorry this sounds blunt or rude but this is not quality of life.
Here is an example of what I mean.
My cousin was in a serious car accident at Christmas. I left him in the hospital fighting for life. They could not tell us if he would ever be the same again. He suffered a lot of head trauma. Well at the time we had no clue he had a living will and it had a DNR form on it.
The doctors talked to the family and as a family we decided to honor kyles wishes and talk him off life support. It was a hard choice and there was a lot of prayers and tears shed. We left it up to kyle to fight for his life.
He is still alive and in a long term care center now. He chose to live. We still don't know if he will ever wake up or be kyle again but he chose to live.

I believe if this baby is meant to live then take the respirator off and let it be in the babies hands if he lives and if he can fight to live.

This is my opinion as I have watched a love one go through this. I to sat many a nights at the hospital talking to him and holding his hand and begging him to wake up. He too would open his eyes and look at me and squeeze my hand, But was he there I am not sure.

DarkFantasy96
04-25-2007, 06:24 PM
If it were my baby I would let him die NATURALLY. And I mean really naturally, off the damn respirator. He would go to heaven anyways, or at least to some place better than being either in pain or all doped up and unaware of everything.

warrior1972
04-25-2007, 06:25 PM
YEah good thing the pope decided there is no such thing as limbo..what a relief that a human can just wipe out something like this these babies can go to heaven.

shortstuff
04-25-2007, 06:44 PM
YEah good thing the pope decided there is no such thing as limbo..what a relief that a human can just wipe out something like this these babies can go to heaven.

What is your problem here.
Make a statement rather then sarcasm.
This is a forum not everyone is going to agree with everyone.
Here you can agree to disagree.

But try and make a point or a valid post at least.

DarkFantasy96
04-25-2007, 06:47 PM
YEah good thing the pope decided there is no such thing as limbo..what a relief that a human can just wipe out something like this these babies can go to heaven.
I am not a Christian, so I hope you weren't implying that.

I believe in heaven, for lack of a better word. I'm not sure exactly what that entails but I think our souls go somewhere nicer after we die...

Callous
04-25-2007, 06:55 PM
I have to agree with what the hospital had to say in that sometimes parents make the wrong choice for good intentions.
It is hard to lose a family member and losing a child is the hardest. I would like to think that if there were any hope of survival it would not be an issue. But seeing how there is no hope of survival the hospital is spinning it’s wheels to keep the child sedated and on a life support.

Phyrex
04-25-2007, 08:20 PM
I agree, let him go.

LionelHutz
04-25-2007, 09:35 PM
I didn't realize ventilators were the way to die naturally.

warrior1972
04-25-2007, 10:18 PM
What is your problem here.
Make a statement rather then sarcasm.
This is a forum not everyone is going to agree with everyone.
Here you can agree to disagree.

But try and make a point or a valid post at least.


I made a valid point if the pope and Catholic jus up and decide there is not limbo this baby would not be going to heaven. so the above point would not be true that the baby is automatically be sent to heaven.

People make statements, sarcasm and personal attacks all the time on this board why are you riding me ass about it?

Don't like what I have to say put me on the ignore list.
Because I garentee you will see more of what you do not want to see.

warrior1972
04-25-2007, 10:19 PM
I am not a Christian, so I hope you weren't implying that.

I believe in heaven, for lack of a better word. I'm not sure exactly what that entails but I think our souls go somewhere nicer after we die...

Oh no not implying you were a christian just still irritated that the pope can just up and decide there is no such thing as limbo. I guess pergatory is next.

shortstuff
04-25-2007, 10:25 PM
I made a valid point if the pope and Catholic jus up and decide there is not limbo this baby would not be going to heaven. so the above point would not be true that the baby is automatically be sent to heaven.

People make statements, sarcasm and personal attacks all the time on this board why are you riding me ass about it?

Don't like what I have to say put me on the ignore list.
Because I guarantee you will see more of what you do not want to see.
Nah I wouldn't put you on ignore. Everyone has their opinion.
I was just asking yours and getting clarification.
No harm no foul. Just probing is all.

Why wouldn't this innocent life be going to heaven. If the baby is blessed or baptised before passing then why wouldn't it go to heaven?
Just curious.

Phyrex
04-25-2007, 10:30 PM
If it is baptaised it will go to Heaven according to the Catholics. But since the Pope just said there is no more limbo, I suppose he goes to Heaven no matter what now.

Travh20
04-26-2007, 09:05 AM
Oh no not implying you were a christian just still irritated that the pope can just up and decide there is no such thing as limbo. I guess pergatory is next.

you can up and decide there is no god, whats the difference?

Genzo
04-26-2007, 09:35 AM
I hate the thought of ANY life ending, but I have to agree that this does not seem to be a natural way to live. If "God" determines that this child is meant to live then the child will live without the aid of the machine.

As for Limbo or some such thing, I did not think such a thing existed anyway. The thought that a child who has not had the opportunity to commit some sort of sin would not be allowed into "heaven" is ludicrous. I do not Know what type of god everyone believes in, but my idea of god would never turn away such a beautiful untarnished soul.

Allow a merciful god to work whatever plan he has and bring the child home.

I also have a seperate question about this issue, but rather than detract from this child and everyones thoughts on his life and death I will post it seperately.

Freethinker
04-26-2007, 10:00 AM
Fight over baby's life support divides ethicists

How any so-called "ethicists" could be the slightest bit *divided* is beyond human reckoning.

What part of "ethics" or "morality" is it or would it be to force this baby to continue living?!?!?!?

Yes, the parents no doubt love the little baby, but the baby is in agony; the baby has NO hope for a normal life; the baby has a horrendously painful and debilitating and INCURABLE disease.

Yet some purported "ethicist" somewhere thinks the thing to do is to indefinitely PROLONG this poor baby's suffering?!?!?!?????

I will never understand the thinking of these poeple.

Evil Homer
04-26-2007, 10:24 AM
Let me help you, Free. It all depends on your answer to the question:
"Is even a terrible painful life better than no life at all?"

That answer pretty much decides which side you're on.