I've been troubled lately by what I perceive to be religious nuts fighting for everything from the 10 Commandments in Alabama to Gay Marriage in Canada. I went to church a lot when I was a kid (My father is actually a minister), but the practice of worship, communion, etc., has always felt inauthentic to me. To this day, I pray, I meditate, I live what I would call a life of integrity. I'm just bothered by religious people and can't help but think there's got to be a better way to celebrate our relationship with God. I experience God every day in my wife's smile and my son's laughter. I see God in my dog's eyes and feel God in a warm breeze. Go to church? Nothing. Seems pretentious. What I see of church-going people makes me want to stay away. Is it just me? Can't we create some new authentic expression of our relationship to God that includes all of humanity and allows for the possibility that the peak of the mountain will look a little differently to each of us based on where we stand? For me, it seems the thing to do is forget everything I have ever been taught about God and just spend a little time each day meditating and experiencing the presence of God. Maybe one day I'll have something to share. Till then, I've got better things to do with my Sundays.

You sound like you might be a Buddhist (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/5minbud.htm).

Originally posted by BorgHunter
You sound like you might be a Buddhist (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/5minbud.htm).

Really? Maybe I am. I'll look at your link.

You seem to have your spirituality covered, so I don't know why you would need to go to church.

Maybe you should take yourself to the library, and get some books to read about different religions. As Borghunter said, start with Buddhism and work your way through some others.

God is not in church! Never was, although a lot of good meaning, but ignorant, people will try to tell you. "Don't you know that the temple of God is NOT made with hands?" "Ye are the temple of the most high!" God lives in you, and you don't need any church or other religion to prove that. Live Godly in Christ Jesus, that's all you need to do. If you're gonna go to a library, just read about Martin Luther, a catholic monk who discovered Salvation by Grace one day, which changed his and many other people's lives. Only Jesus saves! When Buddha died, he said, "I never found the truth", while Jesus says, "I AM the truth!". God bless you

Believe in what you want, if you are at peace with yourself then what else is there.

Thanks for the replies. I like what I see on the Buddhism link. I read some Buddhist literature back in college, but it did not mean much to me then. I've found the Bible and Christianity to be full of hypocrasy. (I'm just speaking for me, and I don't want to upset anyone or start an argument.) I just don't think Christianity is for me. Being Christ-like perhaps.

I'm sorry, but the Bible and true Christianity contain no hypocracies. Sure, most Christians may be hypocritical, but it in no way should demean the pure religion. From my experience with religion, I find that most (including myself) are ignorant of what is really going on in Christianity.

Not to sound like some conspiracy theorist with all the answers, I would like to say that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Christian denominations: some similar and some different. Of course they cannot be all correct, no matter how broad one's interpretation of scripture may be. There are many points of contention (with viewpoints throughout the entire religious spectrum) within what is called Christianity today. And the problem is that the basic message that Christianity is supposed to present is being suppressed.

Going to church service every Sunday is definitely NOT the correct way to practice Christianity. Your method is sound, mattw212, keep it up. I close with this note of caution: do not get caught up in doctrine. It has not gone anybody any good.

mattw212, you’re not alone. I haven’t been to church in years, yet I’m closer to God now than I’ve ever been in my entire life. I don’t think that church is necessarily a bad thing, I just think certain congregations go a little too far when they try to tell someone how to pray or worship. I went to church because I found that being around other believers helped strengthen my faith. Just keep looking until you find the one that is right for you. It took me a while, but I finally found my place in a small town Wesleyan church; although I no longer attend the Sunday service, I’ve remained in contact with the members.

I also agree that a person doesn’t have to be in church to pray. A church alter is nothing more than a piece of furniture, with no more power than your sofa or coffee table. You can pray anywhere on Earth and God will hear you.

psamtik071, my son's caregiver is Lesbian. She has been married nearly 10 years. Should I stone them? Are they going to hell? Do they need to repent?

I'm sorry, but the Bible and true Christianity contain no hypocracies. Sure, most Christians may be hypocritical, but it in no way should demean the pure religion. From my experience with religion, I find that most (including myself) are ignorant of what is really going on in Christianity.

Not to sound like some conspiracy theorist with all the answers, I would like to say that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Christian denominations: some similar and some different. Of course they cannot be all correct, no matter how broad one's interpretation of scripture may be. There are many points of contention (with viewpoints throughout the entire religious spectrum) within what is called Christianity today. And the problem is that the basic message that Christianity is supposed to present is being suppressed.

Going to church service every Sunday is definitely NOT the correct way to practice Christianity. Your method is sound, mattw212, keep it up. I close with this note of caution: do not get caught up in doctrine. It has not gone anybody any good.
Oh come on. The different gospels tell very different things about Jesus' life, and which stories he told. Not to mention, the old testament completely contradicts the new one. Other than that, the bible is quite sound, except it was written by men who were all jackasses to anybody who was different than them. I follow what mattw212 said about lesbians. If I remember right, women have to follow everything their husband says, no matter what. They just ask the husband nicely to please be nice to their wife.

Originally posted by Beneck
Only Jesus saves! When Buddha died, he said, "I never found the truth", while Jesus says, "I AM the truth!".Originally posted by Beneck
I am not an Evangelical
Hypocrite. By the way, this is not the proper place to try to convert people to Christianity.

Psamtik: The Bible is full of contradictions. See http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html

Nope, the Bible is full of alternate interpretations.

Originally posted by psamtik071
Nope, the Bible is full of alternate interpretations.

So should we stone our Lesbian nanny and her spouse? Should I inform her she is going to hell? What would Jesus do?

Then there's the whole flood business. You're saying the entire surface of the earth was covered in water. Where did all that water come from? Where did it go? Why did it not melt the polar ice caps? How did they get two of every animal on the ark?

Why did Jesus ascend into the clouds? At what point did he pass out from lack of Oxygen? When would he have vaporized? (Clearly he did; otherwise, even travelling at the speed of light, he'd still be visible via telescope) If he did vaporize, why not do it on the ground... sort of like being beamed up on Star Trek?

When Jesus comes back and calls us to be with him in the clouds, how is he going to appear to us all at once? What if you are in Australia or China? Mirrors? Two Jesuses? (Or is it Jesi?)

This trick — appearing to everyone on the planet all at once — is much simpler if you believe the Earth is flat, which they would have in that day. Do you believe the Earth is flat?

It's enough to make a person schizophrenic (or maybe just possesed by demons). Nothing a good bleeding wouldn't fix.

Leaches, anyone?

Nope, the Bible is full of alternate interpretations.
Wait, so things they claim as facts are just interpretations? Like where Jesus was born. Where he was born is an interpretation?

Then there's the whole flood business. You're saying the entire surface of the earth was covered in water. Where did all that water come from? Where did it go? Why did it not melt the polar ice caps? How did they get two of every animal on the ark?
Actually, if you place it in the same time frame as every other story about the flooding of the earth, it happened when the ice age ended and everything melted filling the oceans. Yes, there are countless stories about the earth being covered in water, from Europe, to Asia to the Americas. The animals thing is quite stupid though.

Why did Jesus ascend into the clouds? At what point did he pass out from lack of Oxygen? When would he have vaporized? (Clearly he did; otherwise, even travelling at the speed of light, he'd still be visible via telescope) If he did vaporize, why not do it on the ground... sort of like being beamed up on Star Trek?
You know what, I never thought of that. Your right, how in the hell did he do that. Now that I think of it, it's quite funny. Did he hit his head on a bird?

When Jesus comes back and calls us to be with him in the clouds, how is he going to appear to us all at once? What if you are in Australia or China? Mirrors? Two Jesuses? (Or is it Jesi?)

This trick — appearing to everyone on the planet all at once — is much simpler if you believe the Earth is flat, which they would have in that day. Do you believe the Earth is flat?
Hehe. They must of, only the Greeks found out it was round that far back. Some Greek mathematician measured shadows at the same time in Greece and in Africa. Calculated the curvature and found out the circumfrence of the earth. He was off though, but still hundreds, maybe it was even a thousand years ahead of his time. All those Greeks were, and the most intelligent ignored the gods.

Wait, so things they claim as facts are just interpretations? Like where Jesus was born. Where he was born is an interpretation?

An interpretation of the facts is a claim that those facts are true (or not).

An interpretation of the facts is a claim that those facts are true (or not).
Yes, that may be true. But what it looked like you were saying was that the bible is only interpretations, nothing defined as "fact". That it would be impossible to get places and people messed up because it is only "interpretation".

__________________________________________________ _________________________________
Qoute originally posted by Borghunter:
Hypocrite. By the way, this is not the proper place to try to convert people to Christianity.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________

Hey Borghunter, maybe it's time you stop labelling people or hunt for spooks like Borgs! I am NOT an evangelical, no matter what label you try to put on me, but if the forum for religion is not a good place to convert people, where should I go? To a forum for unbelievers? It seems to me there are plenty of those on this forum!!!

Mattw212: As far as stoning your lesbian nanny: maybe the stoning isn't so convenient in the USA, seeing that there're definitely not as many stones lying on the ground as in the Middle East. But for sure it's not very healthy to have someone with such an attitude take care of your kids (unless of course you're also part of the gay society!) Is she going to hell because she's a lesbian? Jesus taught us to love the sinner, just hate the SIN. What did He say in the case of the adulteress that was brought to Him to be stoned? "Those of you that have NO sin can throw the first stone!" Anyone has some sinless perfection around here?? What did He say to her? "Woman, where are you accusers? Go, and sin no more!"

Originally posted by Beneck
__________________________________________________ _________________________________
Qoute originally posted by Borghunter:
Hypocrite. By the way, this is not the proper place to try to convert people to Christianity.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________

Hey Borghunter, maybe it's time you stop labelling people or hunt for spooks like Borgs! I am NOT an evangelical, no matter what label you try to put on me, but if the forum for religion is not a good place to convert people, where should I go? To a forum for unbelievers? It seems to me there are plenty of those on this forum!!!



I don't know about anyone else, but I come here to discuss, not to be converted by religious extremists. I DON'T believe and nothing you say will change that. I will discuss with you until the cows come home, but I will not be converted.

Originally posted by Beneck
Mattw212: As far as stoning your lesbian nanny: maybe the stoning isn't so convenient in the USA, seeing that there're definitely not as many stones lying on the ground as in the Middle East. But for sure it's not very healthy to have someone with such an attitude take care of your kids (unless of course you're also part of the gay society!)



How dare you speak about someone you don't know in such a way. I would say you are the person who would be dangerous to have around children. So much for compassion and understanding from the 'christian' people. You and those like you are one of the main reasons I turned away from mainstream religion in the first place.

My friend Dreamweaver, why so upset with me when I believe My God and the Bible, instead of going "mainstream" with what the world believes about gays and lesbians. God is against their sin, and that's all there's to it. You believe what your religion tells you, and that's fine, but is it OK that I don't think like you, but like it says in the Bible?
And Borgie, I am not trying to convert YOU, only those that want to. You don't want to? That's your loss! Can we still discuss or that's the end of it? Like sort of, "I don't agree with you, so shutup!"???? :D :D :D

God is against their sin, and that's all there's to it.
Why is it a sin? What exactly would make most sins sins anyways?

Sin, dear friend, is a transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate. Sin is just missing the mark!

__________________________________________________ __
Few love to hear the sins they love to act.

William Shakespeare
__________________________________________________ __:D :D :D

Originally posted by Beneck
But for sure it's not very healthy to have someone with such an attitude take care of your kids

Maybe I should hire a former priest to care for my son.

Do you really want to stick to characterising a person's sexuality as an "attitude."

Perhaps you'd like to share with us what it was like the day you made the firm, resolute choice to be a heterosexual. What was it like? Did you pray to be strong in the face of the temptation? When you are tempted to lust after someone, do you find you are tempted by males and females equally?

As for me, I've always had an eye for the ladies. Last night I was playing poker with a bunch of guys... some gay, some straight... one of the biggest laughs of the evening was from how the idea of switching from being gay to straight or vice versa was kind of distgusting.

Of course in prison all bets are off.

Originally posted by Beneck
[B]Sin is just missing the mark!B]But if you "miss the mark," you wouldn't be sinning now would you?

"I did not have sexual ralations with that woman — Ms. Lewinsky."

— B.J. Clinton

Sin, dear friend, is a transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate. Sin is just missing the mark!
Well then. On the religion part, I will sin untill the earth explodes. Morals are all that tell me what to do. Therefore, it looks to me that homosexuality isn't a sin.

Wait, are you against homosexuality? We keep assuming that you are, yet you have yet to post a blantanly anti-homosexuality post. Unlike some who come to this forum do.

As the originator of this thread, I first want to acknowledge everyone participating. Thanks for your honesty in stating your beliefs.

Secondly, I checked out the Buddhism website Borg recommended near the top of this thread. Thanks, Borg. I'm actually quite moved and inspired by what I see there. I intend to make a further study of it.

Third, inauthenticity and denial are at the heart of my being repulsed by Christianity as practiced in every church I have been to. The most present evidence of inauthenticity and denial are two things:

1) Despite contradictions and outright factual errors in the Bible the majority of Christians I have met (in my opinion) cling to a literal interpretation of the Bible. This is unfortunate because A) there is no celebration of the truth and beauty expressed through the Bible in a figurative reading and B) Clinging to a literal interpretation forces the congregant to Identify with an object (the interpreation) rather than the subject (a miraculous, causal force some may experience as a personal God)

2) It seems to me the majority of the Christians I have met believe that Homosexuality is an abomination and practicing homosexuals are going to hell. They view the practice of homosexuality as a choice, yet they can provide no evidence large numbers of people being conflicted by the choice... like the choice to fornicate or not... or to steal something or not... or to lie or not. I'm sure there are a few homosexuals who supress their sexuality and have heterosexual relationships because of their beliefs; but my real question here is: Who does homosexuality harm? what social ill does it present. Because two men or two women choose to share their lives together... what should I care. You might argue that promiscuity is rampant in the gay community. But I don't think we have any right to expect anything different as long as we as a society oppse gay marriage. Imagine how promiscuous your average hetero Joe would be if there were not laws and morality arguing for monogamy.

There has been some talk here about attempting to convert one another to Christianiy. To those Christians who want to share the peace and joy they have found through Christ, I say this: Maybe the biggest act of faith there is is letting go of what you know about god in favor of what's possible in getting to know fellow humans who are afterall the children of god. I would bet you're first instinct is to argue for a literal interpretation for the Bible and argue against Homosexuality. Please realize that telling me why I am wrong will not endear me to your religion. Acknowledging what I have said and sharing what moves you about it and asking questions so you see my point clearly will endear me.

Those who think they know god know nothing. Those who know they don't know god may know everything.

Peace and joy to you all!

You know friend mattw212, being tempted to lust is not the sin, doing what you're tempted to do makes it a sin. Even if you're tempted after men, instead of women (I know, not you!), you don't have to give in to temptations. But, hey, you all claim to have read the Bible, I am surprised that you understand so little of it. Or is it that you all DO understand, but don't want to do what it says?
And maybe you should ask your drill-sergeant in the Army if "missing the mark" is considered a sin or not, whatdayathink?

And Dreamweaver, why do you get so uptight all the time if someone dares to say what he believes? You only reacted twice sofar to anything I wrote, and you just get upset. "Great peace have they that love their God, and nothing shall offend them." (Quote of course from Jude Jackson) Is it maybe that you don't believe in anything what makes you so angry inside? (Sorry Borghunter for putting your name on there earlier, it wasn't you, but Dr Dream). And Dreamweaver, I am not out to convert you, why should I want to do that? You so obviously state already what you all believe in. Right? Tell us some about your religion, so we understand what makes you tick? Please?:D

Originally posted by Beneck
…being tempted to lust is not the sin, doing what you're tempted to do makes it a sin.

I understand... my question to you is have you ever been tempted to commit a homosexual act? I'm tempted to commit lots of heterosexual acts. I don't act on them. If you are not tempted to commit homosexual acts and you are tempted to commit heterosexual acts... doesn't it follow that the temptation is an expression of some innate sexuality? And if that's the case shouldn't a homosexual celebrate his sexuality in an appropriate manner — just as a heterosexual. Afterall, god made us. Otherwise, it seems to me, the bible would have some examples of saints resisting homosexuality... Jesus was, afterall, tempted in all manners as are we.

You never hear Jerry Falwell or PAt Robertson talking about overcoming their temptations to be gay.

Do you suppose Paul's "Thorn in the flesh" was a secret attraction to little boys? He spent a lot of time in jail. Plus you never hear about him with a woman.

Jesus had lots of babes around. Peter, too.

Originally posted by Beneck
And maybe you should ask your drill-sergeant in the Army if "missing the mark" is considered a sin or not, whatdayathink?

Don't ask, don't tell.

Or is it that you all DO understand, but don't want to do what it says?
I understand it, I just don't want my immaginary friend named "god" telling me what to do. Especially since the god of the old testament preaches hatred, biggotry, and ignorance. Unfortunatly, most folllow the old testament.

being tempted to lust is not the sin, doing what you're tempted to do makes it a sin.
No, Jesus taught that thinking it was the same thing as doing it, or so how god held it. To think to kill somebody was to do it in his eyes, to think to lust was to do it, in his eyes.

You never hear Jerry Falwell or PAt Robertson talking about overcoming their temptations to be gay.
Those people are always funny to listen to. How about the time when they blamed terrorism on homosexuals, feminists, and anybody who wasn't the perfect little baptist.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Those people are always funny to listen to. How about the time when they blamed terrorism on homosexuals, feminists, and anybody who wasn't the perfect little baptist.
My favorite is when, through the power of prayer, Pat diverted a hurricane from hitting his business and home in Virginia Beach. Guess he prayed harder that the poor slobs who got shellaqued!

I did not say that the entire Bible has interpretations; on the contrary, there are explicit facts. But it is also full of interpretations, which is what I am trying to explain.

Just trying to set the record straight

I did not say that the entire Bible consists of interpretations; on the contrary, there are explicit facts. But it is also full of interpretations, which is what I am trying to explain.

Just trying to set the record straight

Originally posted by Beneck
And Dreamweaver, I am not out to convert you, why should I want to do that? You so obviously state already what you all believe in. Right? Tell us some about your religion, so we understand what makes you tick? Please?:D


I am sure we have had this discussion before, but maybe you weren't here at that time.

I am a witch, and I am interested in the Wiccan faith. It allows me to think, explore and 'worship' in a way I feel comfortable with. I much prefer to do my form of worship out in the environment and with nature. This way I can gives thanks to that which I can see. It shows respect to women which very few other religions do, as the Goddess is looked upon with great importance. She is the creator and nurturer of life, not some who will shower me with fire and brimstone if I do not follow the chosen path.

Witches were burned at the stake, in years gone by, by christians who were threatened by them. Why are some christians so upset by other religions? They came into the Aboriginal tribes in Australia and took their children away, saying they could bring them up better and teach them about God. We now have what is called 'The Stolen Generation' in this country, which tore families apart. I don't see how this can be justified. Then we have the Catholic priests who still continue to sexually assault children, and it has now come to light that the heirarchy of the church knew about it, and let it continue.

I do not blindly follow any religion. I want one which allows me to question, debate and have some say in how I practise it. Wicca does that for me, in a way that others never did. I do not believe in God, I believe in ME and the capacity I have for compassion and caring for others who happen to be sharing the planet with me. That includes people and animals alike.

I am always concerned about why people feel the need to convert others to their religions. I am sure we all find the road we wish to travel, without have religion rammed down our throats by other people. There are thousands of churches to walk into if I want to find out about what they have to say. I don't need people knocking on my door or bombarding me with their beliefs. I am glad that mine doesn't expect me to do that. Maybe that is why it suits me.

I did not say that the entire Bible consists of interpretations; on the contrary, there are explicit facts. But it is also full of interpretations, which is what I am trying to explain.

Just trying to set the record straight
What it looked more like you were saying was that there are no contradictions in the bible, only different interpretations. Just take a look into the bible, and you have gospels conflicting with each other, and even sections in which one thing is said, and then a page or two later, the exact oppisite is stated.

The gospels were written by human beings - inspired, yes - but human beings just the same. Looking past the specific details (which probably conflict), is the message still the same? Yes, but to other people, conflicts in specific details may imply contradictions in the message, which is what I am concerned with.

Thanks Dreamweaver for explaining about your faith. Its very interesting. I have however a few other questions. Do you not have any "religious" or "holy" books that tell you how to live your religion? What about leaders? It's obvious the pope is the leader of the catholics. Who's your leader?
On your comment though about being allowed to think, explore and worship in a way you feel comfortable with I must say though that I do that too! I do not follow the "mainstream" christian line (if there is even such a thing), but explore my religion in a close and communicative relation with my Saviour. That does mean following His words, but it doesn't have to be the way "they" tell me to, but like He tells me to.
How come you believe in the Godess, but not in God?

Why does a religion need a leader?

Originally posted by Beneck
Thanks Dreamweaver for explaining about your faith. Its very interesting. I have however a few other questions. Do you not have any "religious" or "holy" books that tell you how to live your religion? What about leaders? It's obvious the pope is the leader of the catholics. Who's your leader?
On your comment though about being allowed to think, explore and worship in a way you feel comfortable with I must say though that I do that too! I do not follow the "mainstream" christian line (if there is even such a thing), but explore my religion in a close and communicative relation with my Saviour. That does mean following His words, but it doesn't have to be the way "they" tell me to, but like He tells me to.
How come you believe in the Godess, but not in God?

Beneck I follow the ancient druid religion(and some of what the native Americans thought... not that far apart) which is very hard because there isn't a whole lot to go on. It does seem close to Dreamweavers way of thinking. As lionel Hutz asked why do you need a human to lead you. If you believe in a God, Godess, or many Gods, and say they are in your heart then why do you have to look at, or up to another human for answers? My religion is everything from the dirt we walk on to the stars we see at night. My Gods(or atleast there teachings) are all over the place the tree, animals, earth, moon, rocks, water sun etc..... One more question you say you follow his word, that is a word that was written by man for man. You also say you follow what he tells you to do, have you spoken to him?

One more thing I don't think Dreamweaver ruled out men as being Gods she was just saying that her practice doesn't look down on women so there are also Godesses. I do agree with her most religions including Christianity does (or did) look down on women. This seems kind of stupid to me, where would we be if we didn't have women?

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Why does a religion need a leader?



That is exactly my point. With Wicca I have the choice of belonging to a coven, or being a solitary practitioner. I tend to be more comfortable with the latter.

Originally posted by Beneck
Thanks Dreamweaver for explaining about your faith. Its very interesting. I have however a few other questions. Do you not have any "religious" or "holy" books that tell you how to live your religion? What about leaders? It's obvious the pope is the leader of the catholics. Who's your leader?
On your comment though about being allowed to think, explore and worship in a way you feel comfortable with I must say though that I do that too! I do not follow the "mainstream" christian line (if there is even such a thing), but explore my religion in a close and communicative relation with my Saviour. That does mean following His words, but it doesn't have to be the way "they" tell me to, but like He tells me to.
How come you believe in the Godess, but not in God?


No we don't have leaders, (unless you choose to belong to a coven), and we have what is called a Book of Shadows which is basically a personal journal. It includes diferent rituals, experiences, sabats etc, which relates to you. I have had very little to do with covens, so I really couldn't tell you how they work. I have done a lot of reading about various types of Wiccans and beliefs in the Wiccan faith. You choose what you are comfortable doing, and follow what you feel is right for you. You can take guidance from others books, but their are no hard and fast rules.

I never said I didn't believe in "god', I just don't believe in 'A' god. I believe that we have many keepers of the earth who all have their purpose, whether they be goddess or god. It isn't up to one almighty person called God.

Thanks Dreamweaver for your answers. I didn't know much about your faith, so what you said is enlightening. I can see why Christians have persecuted people of your beliefs in the past, and why they still don't particular like them now! Although the dictionary makes a distiction between satanism and the wiccan faith, it sure sounds you're all worshipping the devil, "one of the many keepers of the earth". In fact, in the Bible the devil is called the god of this world, and he even offered it all to Jesus if He would just fall down and worship him (the devil). Well, I am sure everyone will start screaming at me and telling me how wrong and narrowminded I am and all. Are there actually ANY other Christians on this forum?

Yes, I said earlier that I was. And I also said that I don't feel the need to spend all my time telling everyone else that they're wrong and I'm right, because like I said, I can't prove it.

Are there actually ANY other Christians on this forum? Or only "other", "alternative" religions??? Remember guys (and gals), "all it takes for evil to triumph is for GOOD men (and women) to do nothing!" Speak up! Be heard! Tell the Truth!

Originally posted by Beneck
Thanks Dreamweaver for your answers. I didn't know much about your faith, so what you said is enlightening. I can see why Christians have persecuted people of your beliefs in the past, and why they still don't particular like them now! Although the dictionary makes a distiction between satanism and the wiccan faith, it sure sounds you're all worshipping the devil, "one of the many keepers of the earth". In fact, in the Bible the devil is called the god of this world, and he even offered it all to Jesus if He would just fall down and worship him (the devil). Well, I am sure everyone will start screaming at me and telling me how wrong and narrowminded I am and all. Are there actually ANY other Christians on this forum?

Beneck I hope you don't think I'm being disrespectfull, I just find religion(or religions) interesting. Please don't think that I am bashing you or any other Christian here.

Now as far as your post about the devil I don't believe in him so how could I be supporting something that I believe never exsisted? The statement that you made about non-religious (Christians)folks is what makes people get mad at Christians. You don't really understand the way I or someone else goes about our religion so instantly you say we are supporting the devil? If an atheist doesn't believe in God then they also don't belive in the devil so how could they be supporting "it"(devil)? The devil just like God needs followers in order to survive so if a person does not believe in "it"(devil) then it looses power.There is bad and good but is there really true evil? Many years ago if a bad storm came alot of people would say that is the work of the devil (not true). Things happen in this world that humans will never understand, this doesn't mean there is an evil being pulling strings. If there were no bad how would we know what was good, life is about balance.

Originally posted by Beneck
Are there actually ANY other Christians on this forum? Or only "other", "alternative" religions??? Remember guys (and gals), "all it takes for evil to triumph is for GOOD men (and women) to do nothing!" Speak up! Be heard! Tell the Truth!

Uh hello???!!! [jumps up and down, waving hands] :confused:

Dear Mad Dog. Thanks for your explanation, and no, I don't think you're disrespectful. I was under the impression that we are discussing religious matters from a religious standpoint. Mine is different than yours, but still religious I would say.
However, just because someone doesn't believe something or someone excists, doesn't mean that he or it DOESN'T excist! Just because you all say, "There's no God", or "God is dead", that doesn't make it so because YOU believe it. And true according to that philosophy, if you don't believe in God how could you believe in the devil, right?
I know even less of your (Druid) religion than I do of Dreamweavers (Wiccan) beliefs, but it's like Jesus said, "He who's not for Me, is against Me!" On this forum I have been called a lot of things in a very short time. It makes me sad a little bit, but on the other hand I guess it's also like Jesus said, "to be popular with the world, is to be unpopular with God." So I like to turn it around and rather be popular with God, and unpopular with the rest of the forum.
On the other hand, dear Mad Dog, I have found you to be a reasonable, sweet person, and I don't think you actually even once said anything derogatory about me or my beliefs, so like you said of me once, I belief I can say of you, "I belief you are sincere in your believes". God bless you.
And, dear LionelHutz, why NOT tell everyone that they're wrong and you're right, if you're right??? Just let them go to hell? O, I guess they don't believe in hell, since they don't believe in the devil, right?

When I was young and had to go to sunday school they use to teach that God created one thing and then the devil created another to stay in the game. Example God created the deer the devil created the wolf. God created the duck so the devil created the alligator. Do they still teach this way?

Oh almost forgot Beneck I enjoy your thoughts also, just as I have with others here, and may your God bless you also.

The thing that iritates me about this arguement is that everything which is good and wonderful has been created by god, or been heaven sent. Everything which is bad, however is the doing of man.

I don't believe in the devil. I believe everyone has the propensity to be bad, because that is human nature.

Wiccans, by the way, do not believe in the devil, or hell. They have the horned god, but he is not evil.

"He who's not for Me, is against Me!"
Just yesterday I was told otherwise. It was how there were people not exactly with Jesus, but still shared his moral views and the Disciples tried to yell at the man and Jesus stopped them. Saying that just because they aren't with him, doesn't mean they are against him.

When I was young and had to go to sunday school they use to teach that God created one thing and then the devil created another to stay in the game. Example God created the deer the devil created the wolf. God created the duck so the devil created the alligator. Do they still teach this way?
Not how they taught me. I was taught that God created everything. And it was the devil that tempted them. Your way sounds more like some pagan religion I remember coming across.

Gnostics don't beleive in the devil, but believe in his "spirit". Freedom from ignorance and the binding chains of servitude. "Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ... Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you" (Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217).

Originally posted by Beneck
And, dear LionelHutz, why NOT tell everyone that they're wrong and you're right, if you're right??? Just let them go to hell? O, I guess they don't believe in hell, since they don't believe in the devil, right?

Because I can't prove it (and neither can you). Besides, it's none of my business. There isn't a person in the western world that isn't thoroughly knowledgeable about Jesus, and no amount of biblical quotation is going to make them come around.

Because I can't prove it (and neither can you). Besides, it's none of my business. There isn't a person in the western world that isn't thoroughly knowledgeable about Jesus, and no amount of biblical quotation is going to make them come around.
But there's a lot that scares people away.

Blib I'm not asking just about humans I'm asking about everything. As dreamweaver said why is it that God created all good things and the devil all bad. It is just like when some one gets into an accident people stand around and say well thank "GOD" they are all right and didn't get hurt. My question is where was "GOD" before the accident happened. Or lets say the person gets killed in the accident then they say well "GOD" works in mysterious ways. Another thing the people that worship one God say he put humans here(on the planet), he cares for humans, and all other creations are here to serve mankind. Then why does he let such terrible diseases, natural disasters, etc... happen, if he loves his human creation so much then why kill them and make them suffer such terrible things in life? Why would a good create something, tell it to worship him, and then turn around and be so cruel? This goes back to my other post, did the devil make the bad things happen? If God is so strong (stronger then the devil), and cares so much for his creation then why doesn't he just kick the devils a**, He did it once? Which brings up another question God kicked the devils arse then sent him here to earth why not throw him on pluto or some other planet where is favorite creation is not at? The Bible preaches but it will not tell you any answers this is why it was made by humans, not Gods word (in my opinion). If God where so kind and forgiving, as Christians say he/she is then why not give answers?

I hope I have not offended anyone but these are some questions that I have asked over the years. It seems strange for me to worship something, that can not answer, only preach. I find it very hard for something to claim to have so much love for a creation but then turn its back on that very same creation that worships its exsistance.

It is kind of like a parent(good parent) when your child ask you something, you give them an answer. We protect our kids we don't just through a bunch of nasty sh** at them and expect them to figure it out. We try our best to protect our creation, within our means. Why cant the creater of all things protect us after all he loves us and he does know all. This is why I have left the Catholic church because there are no answers

Originally posted by Blibblob
Because I can't prove it (and neither can you). Besides, it's none of my business. There isn't a person in the western world that isn't thoroughly knowledgeable about Jesus, and no amount of biblical quotation is going to make them come around.
But there's a lot that scares people away.

What scare people away are the Christians that spend all of their time harassing you trying to get you to show up to their church.

No, I was never taught (and never teach either) that God made one thing and the devil another. It says in the Bible that all things are made by God!
And, yes, everything God made is good, and a lot (maybe not everything) that man makes or does isn't! How do you know that the horned god isn't evil Dreamweaver?
Blib, Jesus really DID say in the Bible that if you're not with him, you're against him. Look it up in Matthew 12:30.
And dear Lionel, it's true that there are lots of people in the "western world" knowledgeble of Jesus, but lots aren't, including the majority of those I meet on this forum. They heard about him from others, but haven't read His words or met Him personally as their Saviour!

Dear MadDog, gosh you have a lot of questions. And good ones too! But let me ask you one too! If we are God's beloved creation, do you think it was God that went back on His promises, or maybe that His beloved creation started doing something else as it was asked? Why did He wipe out everyone, except for 8 people? Because He is so cruel? Well, it says in the Bible that Gods beloved creation turned out to be so bad and wicked, that God repented of having made His beloved creation! Was it because Gods beloved creation (man) was created bad? No! Here is where free will comes in: man CHOOSE to do his own thing! Just like the devil choose to do his own thing. Mind you, he was Lucifer, the lightbearer, second only to God. But he wanted to BE God, and CHOOSE to rebel. Was he created by God? Turned out bad? Yes and yes, but of his own free will. We get a raw deal because of our own stubborn free wills, which we don't put on Gods side, and than murmur to Him that He doesn't help us.
And why are accidents or earthquackes necesarily bad things, "that come from God"? It says in the Bible that, "ALL things work together for good for them that love God!" And I believe that, even if at first I can't seem to understand why.
And I don't think the Bible only preaches at us. It says a lot of times, "do this" or "don't do this", but it almost always also comes with a promise, like "...and then I will do this". God's promises are the things He keeps, but we don't keep His commandments. Can God bless disobedience? Obedience precedes the blessing! It's not God that needs to obey us, it's the other way around.
I believe also that the Catholic church misses to give the right answers in many ways. I grew up a Catholic, and left when I became desillussioned with it at the age of 13. Then it took me another 18 years to find JESUS, and He gave me peace of mind! Jesus is not a Catholic, or a evangelical. He's the Son of God, in a class all by Himself. And Jesus was sent to Earth, because God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosowever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life! The Catholics don't teach you that. They have on- and off Salvation, while I believe once saved, always saved.
Anyhow, I am getting into proselityizing again as you soon will say. So I'll stop and let you answer. Beneck

What scare people away are the Christians that spend all of their time harassing you trying to get you to show up to their church.
What I meant was some things that Jesus said. As how we are all sheep. Sheep, you see, are mindless and follow whoever steps in front of them. Sheep have represented conformity and stupidity in everything except the Bible. That in itself is enough to scare away anyone who stands for free will and is against any form of constricting athority. But evangalists are scary also.

Blib, Jesus really DID say in the Bible that if you're not with him, you're against him. Look it up in Matthew 12:30.
Interesting, I see that. Now I'm wondering where the story that was told to me at church came from(It's a catholic church).

And, yes, everything God made is good, and a lot (maybe not everything) that man makes or does isn't! How do you know that the horned god isn't evil Dreamweaver?
Well, from my knowledge of the Wiccan faith, is that there are no "good" gods, and no "bad" gods. Just like it was in the ancient world. Hades was possibly one of the nicer gods(just a little lustful). Egyptian god of the underworld was also the "head" god. I only see with christian a good and a bad, god completely good, and the devil bad. The point of most of the others was the yin yang, little bit of good, little bit of bad, in everything.

Originally posted by Blibblob
What scare people away are the Christians that spend all of their time harassing you trying to get you to show up to their church.
What I meant was some things that Jesus said. As how we are all sheep. Sheep, you see, are mindless and follow whoever steps in front of them. Sheep have represented conformity and stupidity in everything except the Bible. That in itself is enough to scare away anyone who stands for free will and is against any form of constricting athority. But evangalists are scary also.

Blib, Jesus really DID say in the Bible that if you're not with him, you're against him. Look it up in Matthew 12:30.
Interesting, I see that. Now I'm wondering where the story that was told to me at church came from(It's a catholic church).

Whenever the bible talks about Jesus being the shepard, it is merely trying to show christians that Jesus watches over his flock and protects them from any harm that may befall them. Never have i heard christians referred to as "sheep" simply in the context that they were mindless automaton's. That is simply your interpretation of it. Since you associate negativity towards religion in general, you have a natural proclivity to see the word "sheep" in a derogatory way when it is associated with religion.


And I am wondering whether you simply hear what you want to hear and not what is actually being said.

Blib, I guess I agree with HaVok here that Christians are not referred to as "sheep" because they're so gullible, but because Jesus is the good Shepherd. By the way, your statement that sheep just follow anyone in front of them is also not true! Ever tried to get close to some sheep? They run away as fast as they can. Yes, they follow the shepherd and the lead-sheep, but not a stranger! That's why Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and they follow ME, and a stranger they will not follow!"

I also agree with Havok it was always my understanding that Jesus was saying follow me I will save you(like a sheperd with his flock).

Beneck; This is hard for me because I am trying to answer the way I feel now, but using what I was taught years ago.

[1] I don't deny that people are sinners, but doesn't God teach forgiveness. He is the almighty, and says I forgive all, so is he denying us because of what we may not understand. Not our fault. Look at all the choices in the world(different religions)

[2] If God and the devil exsisted, then they would have exsisted at the same time, so the devil did know God. People only know God through what they have been told different storys(by other people). Doesn't God owe us a visit so that he can set things straight? His creation has many believes, what makes one wrong and the other one right? If he does visit and tell us he is a different religion then we believe,...what then? Just imagine how many wars he could stop if he just showed up and said this is who I am and this is what I stand for. Once again back to the question of "if God loves his creation why not stop all these religious wars?"

[3] I believe we see eye to eye on earthquakes and such. I just know that at one time there were teachings that bad things(earthquakes, etc..) happened because of the devil.

[4] I do agree humans should not give there God orders, but if there God loves so much he should atleast provide answers. I really don't know if I can agree with you on "everything works out good for those that believe in God". What about the little girl that is ridding her bike when a thug picks her up beats her, rapes her, tortures her, then still kills her, in the end how is this good(she believes). How is this good for the parents to go through the next 70 years knowing their little girl was beatin and there wasn't a damn thing that they could do. Once again I'm asking about Gods love for his creation why would or does he let these things happen?

[5]Commandments, which ones are correct muslim, jew, budda, catholic, babtist, etc.... Everyone has a different twist on this so which is correct?

I'll finish here, I hope I answered most of your questions. I tried to answer them with two different thoughts, the Christian way and the way I feel things now. Religion is a hard subject to understand and 99% of it is what a person feels.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
What scare people away are the Christians that spend all of their time harassing you trying to get you to show up to their church.

LionelHutz this is a good post, these folks are the same ones that criticize and call others bad, but they still go out drinking and doing the same as anyone else. Then you get a person that has delt with these types and they end up hateing the religion. I can't stand these types of folks that say "look at me I go to church, I am a model citizen" then on friday night you see them out cheating on there wife/husband.

Amen, my brother!

Yep, hypocrites is what they are. That is why i no longer attend a church. I know there are good churches out there, but ive attended at least 10 in my lifetime. General observations have made me realize that for most, church is nothing but a social event used to improve social standing for its members. So my church resides within me. I can talk to God at any time and do not need the trappings of a high dollar altar to do so. I also do not have to see this man over here begging for a job from that man over there. The churches themselves are not a bad thing, but like most things in todays world, the people in them are just too self centered and hypocritical for me.

Whenever the bible talks about Jesus being the shepard, it is merely trying to show christians that Jesus watches over his flock and protects them from any harm that may befall them. Never have i heard christians referred to as "sheep" simply in the context that they were mindless automaton's. That is simply your interpretation of it. Since you associate negativity towards religion in general, you have a natural proclivity to see the word "sheep" in a derogatory way when it is associated with religion.
No, I just see sheep when used in literature in a derogatory way period. And I only see organized religion and evangelism in such a negative way, not all religions. I interpret sheep as mindless automatons only because that is what they are. They have no sense of individuality. I think that if you are to use an animal as a metaphor, at least look at all of it's qualities instead of picking one. At least with the Church of Satan LeVey choose an animal that corrosponds almost completely with their standards, the goat.

Blib, I guess I agree with HaVok here that Christians are not referred to as "sheep" because they're so gullible, but because Jesus is the good Shepherd. By the way, your statement that sheep just follow anyone in front of them is also not true! Ever tried to get close to some sheep? They run away as fast as they can. Yes, they follow the shepherd and the lead-sheep, but not a stranger! That's why Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and they follow ME, and a stranger they will not follow!"
Alright, after learning to trust the stranger they will follow. Not to mention they are easily influenced to do what you want if you scare them.

Dear MadDog, yes, God teaches forgiveness, that's true. It's a question of "loving the sinner, but hating the sin". Here is something you're taught as a Catholic: go to confession, do your penance and you'll be forgiven. Well, I believe that in basics too, that Gods forgives those that sin, however NOT when they continue on in their sin. To the forgiveness belongs repentance: going the opposite way because you realise you're wrong. In the world they put you in jail, you do your time, and get released, that can be called your penance. You're however not forgiven because your sin will be held against you for the rest of your life. God says, "Though your sins be (red) as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow." But before that He says, "COME NOW, and let us reason together!" Jesus forgave people their sins and the religious people of His day opposed Him for that.
You ask, "doesn't God owe as a visit?" Well, He did. He visited us about 2000 years ago. But why should He tell us a different belief if He comes? Did Jesus say anything else than the Old Testament said? He asked of one if he knew the commandments, and he answered Jesus, "To love the Lord thy God, and thy neighbor as thyself." And Jesus answered him that on these 2 commandments hang the whole Old Testament.
Yes, God and the devil for some time excisted together, but not always, because the devil too was created by God. Like I said before, it was Lucifer, Gods lightbearer what got himself so exalted that he wanted to be God himself.
I don't agree that religious wars are caused by God. They are caused by religious people that are ignorant of His word!!! It seems that every religion just loves to fight and kill those of another religion, but that's not what Jesus asked us to do. He said HE came to be a sword, to judge between people, but He never asked us to go and kill the other that doesn't believe like us. Religious people often have no idea of what the Bible says. "Good" Catholics till very recently were not even allowed to read the Bible. All they knew about Gods word is what they heard in church, and that's precious little in Catholic churches.
I don't know what to say about your question about the little girl. However I know, and have experienced through many difficulties myself, that "all things work together for good to them that love God", is true and in the long run always works out that way. Like I said before, I might not see it like that immediately, but in the long run I will.
I believe the commandments of Jesus to be true. I believe that God gave a bunch of good commandments in the Old Testament, for THOSE days, and that Jesus gave us new ones for THIS day. As far as I can see the Jewish commandments are the same as our Old Testament ones, and even the Muslims have many of these, as Mohammed was orginially in contact with Christians. I don't think that CHURCH commandments are any good, because we already have Jesus' own words, why do the Catholics or Baptists or whoever have to add to that? As far as Budda is concerned, I have no idea if he even had any commandments for his followers. So, what I try to say is that I believe Jesus' words to be true, I don't need to church to explain them away for me. I can read for myself, as I am sure the majority of people on this forum can, if they want to! By the way, there are lots of good freeware programs you can download that give you a Bible for free, for easy reading and searching!

[1] You are correct the Catholic church hands out forgivness like it is a special sale. I always got upset when Joe blow would go to confession be forgiven and later that day he would be out doing the sin he was just forgiven for.

[2] Jesus forgave the sinners..... that is a big subject all by itself. David from Wacco forgave all of those that followed him also, 2000 years from now he make look like a saint, instead of a nut job(which he was). Please don't think I'm calling Jesus a nut job, I'm just saying there is NO proof that Jesus was the son of God.

[3] I want God to visit, not someone who claims to be the son of. We are suppose to be his all time loved creation so he should show himself, IF he really exist.

[4] I have never met the devil and don't believe him to have ever existed. Alot of the devil teachings came from the fear of people when they didn't understand why something happened.

[5] I never said that religious wars were "caused" by God, but I did say if he popped in, and said hello he could stop the religious wars. People make war, but just imagine if the almighty showed up, that sure would stop alot of crap wouldn't it? Remeber he loves his creation, but he still lets this type of stuff happen(makes one think). If this(religious war) is some sort of population control I think he could do a better job without making his creation suffer.

[6] Back to the same question Christians believe there teaching are truth, Muslim think there teachings are truth, Buddist(sp) think there teachings to be truth, well which is it? Why should Christianity be true when it is one of the newer religions? Every one (christians) talks about Jesus like they have met him they have not. They have heard story's told that don't even tell his real name, his actual birth day, the age he was when he died. How can humans treat the supposed son of God like dirt. If God did send his son here then it seems to me he would have really gone after the non-believers more then the believers, after all he wanted to clean all of his creation(of sin). Just because some one would refuse to believe a man that called himself the son of God does not make them bad. If this is the case then how do we know that Wacco wasn't the real 2nd comming, there are those that do(maybe they are right and the rest of us are bad?) Well I'm getting long winded again so I'll stop here.

[4] I have never met the devil and don't believe him to have ever existed.
Careful if you are trying to say he doesn't exist just because you haven't met him. I have never seen a dinosaur, but beleive them to of existed. Now I am not saying the devil exists, cause he doesn't. We have hardcore proof of dinosaurs, and scientific reasoning of why that proof is credible. The devil has no proof.

[1] People are weak. That's why they need forgiveness and mercy.

[2] David from Waco neither called himself God nor Jesus. He had as much right to forgive sins as any priest or minister had. A nutcase? Just because he followed the Bible more literal than others? Ha!

[3] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. If you're so good at creation, how about you create an appletree with some apples in it, will ya? [Seen "Almight Bruce" recently?]

[4] Just because YOU have never met the devil doesn't mean he doesn't excist. I never was in New York, so I shouldn't believe it excists (according to that theory), since I never saw it?

[5] There's a story in the Bible about a rich man that died and went to hell, and who was communicating with Abraham. He realised where he was and begged Abraham to warn his brothers by sending a beggar that had just also died, so they would not land up there also. And Abraham answered him, "Though one even came back from the dead, they would not believe him!" You think that "they" or even you for that matter, believe Jesus, who came back from the dead? You may make a difference between God and Jesus, but I say God visited us, and look, even now 2000 years later, that is being denied.

[6] Christianity is not a newer religion. Muslims came 6 to 700 hundred years later. So did the Bahai and lots of others. The Old Testament, part of the Bible, is over 4000 years old, I believe they have been around a long time. If you mean by Christianity the followers of Jesus, yes they have been around for about 2000 years now. I have met Jesus. Maybe not eye to eye, but word to word, thought to thought. I pray and I believe He answers my prayers. Why is the Christian faith the true faith? Because Jesus IS the Son of God, and there have been millions of people, knowledgable people, intelligent people, that have born witness to that. And you can know it too by asking Him into your heart and get "born again" as He told Nicodemus (a religous leader in those days) to do. Try it, it might just change your outlook on things.
Waco wasn't the 2nd coming (of Jesus), because David Koresh wasn't Jesus. It says in the Bible that when Jesus returns EVERY eye will see Him. How I don't know, but I believe that every one will know that Jesus is returning, because they will see Him.

[7] A lot of things that are written in the New Testament are words of Jesus, or explanations by the Apostles on those words. If people would condemn the New Testament less, and read it more, they would understand. It would open their eyes to the truth. Not just to say, "I don't understand, so away with it, " but, "I don't understand, Lord help me to understand!" We can't throw every thing away we don't understand, just because WE don't understand it.

[8] God bless you dear MadDog. I am sure we don't see eye to eye on these matters yet. However, I believe your questions are earnest, and you are searching, and I hope for you that you will find the answers to your questions, if not here, or from me, at least from the Creator of All Things. God bless.

I never was in New York, so I shouldn't believe it excists (according to that theory), since I never saw it?
The difference here is that there is proof NYC exists, quite conclusive proof, yet there is no proof that any sort of Satan or Lucifer, or even God, exists or existed. That is something that you cannot prove ever, it is faith. If God exists, then he can show you, but you cannot prove it to another person.

Beneck you have a good faith, My faith is also good in what I believe. this is an interesting debate but it is hard to compare facts with faith you are doing a good job.

[2] How about Jim Jones Now we have two people that you claim followed there faith well they also had other people involved little children. Is this how a person should follow the Bible?

[3] I have created,... with the help of my wife TWO CHILDREN. So I see your apple tree and raise you 2 kids.

[4] When I say "never met" I mean that in an over all sentence. We know dinasours existed because we have proof, bones. We know NY exists because we have taxes(he he). We know California exist because we have smog. We don't know for absolute sure the devil existed, no proof only a faith.

[5] I don't deny anything that I don't know I'm just asking for proof. Your right if someone walked up to me today and said I am Jesus the son of God, I would say that's nice and go on about my day. If someone walked up to me and said I am Jesus and can prove it, then I will sit down and listen. The key word here is proof and in todays society if Jeseus really does show up he will have to offer proof because humans have been scammed so much. Wacco, Jim Jones, The guy in Cali that was going to ride the commet.

[6]Humans are alot older then even 4 thousand years, where was Jesus then. In a time frame of the earths history Christianity is new. You say you have met Jesus (that is great) in faith, but not in person. Once again you say Christian faith is true faith, but a budda would say you are wrong and that his faith is true faith? As far as Wacco not being the 2nd comming I agree, but do those that burned up feel the same?

[7] I never once said throw away the Bible, I am asking for proof not just preachings. Who knows maybe someday the Bible will prove itself? I never throw things away I don't understand, I ask for PROOF. I have not said the Bible is a lie, some things can be proven that makes one ask questions about the Bible.

[8] Yes I am allways searching, that is part of the Druid believe and if some day Christianity can be proven to be "THE" religion then I will follow. Right now my believes are what is around me. I believe the most important part of ANY religion (the part that is forgottin the most) is peace towards others. God bless you also.

Blib I do believe you answered your own question.

Borg thanks for the help, maybe the devil does exist HILLARY :D

Originally posted by mad dog
Beneck you have a good faith, My faith is also good in what I believe. this is an interesting debate but it is hard to compare facts with faith you are doing a good job.

[2] How about Jim Jones Now we have two people that you claim followed there faith well they also had other people involved little children. Is this how a person should follow the Bible?

[3] I have created,... with the help of my wife TWO CHILDREN. So I see your apple tree and raise you 2 kids.

[4] When I say "never met" I mean that in an over all sentence. We know dinasours existed because we have proof, bones. We know NY exists because we have taxes(he he). We know California exist because we have smog. We don't know for absolute sure the devil existed, no proof only a faith.

[5] I don't deny anything that I don't know I'm just asking for proof. Your right if someone walked up to me today and said I am Jesus the son of God, I would say that's nice and go on about my day. If someone walked up to me and said I am Jesus and can prove it, then I will sit down and listen. The key word here is proof and in todays society if Jeseus really does show up he will have to offer proof because humans have been scammed so much. Wacco, Jim Jones, The guy in Cali that was going to ride the commet.

[6]Humans are alot older then even 4 thousand years, where was Jesus then. In a time frame of the earths history Christianity is new. You say you have met Jesus (that is great) in faith, but not in person. Once again you say Christian faith is true faith, but a budda would say you are wrong and that his faith is true faith? As far as Wacco not being the 2nd comming I agree, but do those that burned up feel the same?

[7] I never once said throw away the Bible, I am asking for proof not just preachings. Who knows maybe someday the Bible will prove itself? I never throw things away I don't understand, I ask for PROOF. I have not said the Bible is a lie, some things can be proven that makes one ask questions about the Bible.

[8] Yes I am allways searching, that is part of the Druid believe and if some day Christianity can be proven to be "THE" religion then I will follow. Right now my believes are what is around me. I believe the most important part of ANY religion (the part that is forgottin the most) is peace towards others. God bless you also.

Blib I do believe you answered your own question.

Borg thanks for the help, maybe the devil does exist HILLARY :D Im a little confused here maddog. Are you blaming the Waco commune for their own deaths? Has it been proven that they commited mass suicide? I may have missed that if it has been proven.

Even if the government "proves" that, i probably will not believe it since i watched the whole event unfold on tv. It surely looked to me like that ATF agent threw an incindiery device into the compound and flames erupted. Im not defending David Koresh, simply stating that those people were murdered IMO.

Havok I really wasn't saying anything about the way they went(people dying) just that it happened. But sense you bring it up yes they were murdered by the ATF, but at the same time Koresh who had some sort of power(mind) over them could have said let the children, etc.. go. Then he could have fought his own (dumbsh**) battle. We know that Koresh also slept with other mens wifes. He said that is what God told him to do, so with the help of the Bible he brain washed good people into fighting his stupid battle, and doing things they never would have. I am not saying this is the Bible's fault but he followed what he thought the Bible ment(or atleast he says) When I asked "is this how a person should follow the Bible " what I ment is should someone use the Bible in such away that it is going to cost a life?

Havok I do agree with you about the murdering, but I also still think David is just as much at fault for brain washing those folks. If he was such a peacefull person then why did he have dealings in firearms in the first place? Why did he train his followers to make bunkers, passage ways, and fighting? The ones that ended up hurt in this deal were the kids. In away I quess those people did kill themselfs, they choose to stay with David and they choose to go against what the ATF told them "come out now"(when they first arrived on the site). Some of his followers left they did not die, the ones that stayed did die. David also told them to stay and fight and if you die you will die for the right reason. So in a small way David is no different then Jim Jones or the Cali freak, or there followers. As far as the ATF goes yes I do believe things could have been handled differently.

There's an English saying that goes like, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating." With other words only if you try it you will know what it's like! You all talk about Jesus like a dead Jesus, or a non-excistant Jesus. Well, you've got to try Him to know Him! It's simple. Just ask Him, "Jesus, if you're real, reveal yourself to me."
At the time of his resurrection his disciples didn't believe a whole lot either. They didn't believe Mary Magdalene who had seen him, or later Thomas didn't believe the other apostles that had seen Him. However when He appeared again, He said to Thomas, " because you have seen Me, you have believed: blessed are they that have NOT seen, and YET have believed." The Greeks were inteligent and learned people. The most learned of their day. The Greek doctor Luke said, "to the Aposteles He showed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs." If NY excist, but I haven't seen it, and I am to believe it because someone shows me a picture or videoclip, then why should I not believe the accounts of the apostles, or doctor Luke, or Flavius Josephus etc.etc.? "Same difference" as they say where one doesn't speak good English! And on top of it, by Jesus' own words, I am even MORE blessed!
Napolean Bonaparte, not a mere idiot or moron sheep I would say, had the following to say, ""The Bible is no mere book, but a Living Creature, with a power that conquers all that oppose it. ...Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne & I myself have founded empires, but upon what do these creations of our genius depend?--Upon force! Jesus alone founded His empire upon love, & to this very day millions would die for Him."
Or how about President Abe Lincoln, who said, ""I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Saviour of the World is communicated to us through this book. I am profitably engaged in reading the Bible. Take all of this Book that you can by reason, & the balance by faith, & you will live & die a better man. It is the best Book which God has given to man."
Or President Eisenhower, who said, "To read the Bible is to take a trip to a fair land where the spirit is strengthened & faith renewed."
All morons I suppose who were stupid and didn't accomplish anything? Can you name me a few great unbelievers? Adolf Hitler maybe, or Djengis Khan or Atilla the Hun.... boo!

Beneck; You can't label people morons because they didn't read the Bible. Look at Charles Manson(sp)he reads the Bible all the time. There are alot of smart and GOOD people out there that never even picked up the Bible. They may believe in some other religion or maybe they are atheist. Religion does not make the person good or evil the person is who they are just because.

When someone says NY exists they can prove this to you by putting you in a car and bringing you here. When you say Jesus exists how to you show proof? You can not physically put Jesus in front of another person and even you yourself can not reach out and touch him. You are also right about the pudding, but once again pudding can be proven by one of the senses, taste

My friends:
[1] FAITH is knowing, beyond a shadow of doubt!

[2] I don't know much about the Jim Jones story, it was before my "religious" days. Heard though that the CIA was behind the killing involved with that.

[3] I also have 2 children. However I wouldn't dare to claim that I created them!! God created them my friend. I am sure you made love to your wife more than twice in your life? Why didn't you "create" them every time? Because it's not you that gives life, but God! How about creating that appletree, with the apples on them, for me?? 2appletrees, 2babys?

[4] Sorry, didn't ever hear about the Cali case.

[5] Those that burned went to their reward: eternal life with God in Heaven. That would maybe not have been their choice at that time, but it seems to me from all I have seen of the Wacco thing that it wasn't David Koresh who started the fire and burned everyone in his compound.

[6] It's been extensively researched, and it's found that brainwashing does NOT work. People are made with a free will, and not zombies. People make choices, sometimes bad ones, but they make them themselves. Brainswashing didn't work in the Korean war on American POWs, and it still doesn't work today, no matter what anti-religion groups are trying to tell you.

[7] Just because someone follows the Bible and comes out with some weird statement or idea, I am just wondering, this only happens in Christianity? There aren't any, let's say Druids or Wiccans, that come up with some wacko ideas after reading their Holy Books? It's only Christians that are weird? And only the weird ones you hear about, right? I am not one for fighting, war and killing, and I do not believe that Jesus teaches us that. In fact, when He got arrested Himself, Peter drew a sword and wacked a guy's ear off. But Jesus told him to put up his sword, because, as He said, His Kingdom is not of this world. He could have legions of angels come down and fight for Him. So I don't think the Bible tells us to do that. I feel sorry for the poor guy that gets that out of the Bible and starts some religious war. In fact, from the little I know about the Koran, I don't believe that even the Koran orders a Holy War against unbelievers, at least not against Christians or Jews. But look today, or over the past centuries, how they fight with each other. Those are bad interpretors of the Words of God! But, on the other hand, maybe I am wrong, and they are right, and I just have the wrong interpretation.

[8] I noticed that often with massacres in the Bible, or like in Wacco, it's brought out that children died. But I am very concerned about the fact that no one seems to care much about the millions of unborn children that are murdered every year all throughout the world. They are unborn, and therefor have no right to live? Or what? (Yeah, I know, we delt with abortion at some other place, I've been told that before). That's a NAZI technique, like euthanasia, that has now been adopted by the "civilised" world. Why then go to war against those heathen Nazis 60 years ago? Or maybe they were way ahead of their time?? Especially since they were so anti-Christ!! They were already against Christians 60 years ago, when most of the world wasn't so much into christians-bashing as everyone is now.

I wasn't actually calling anyone a moron! I said that these people, from whom I quoted, were not morons, without implying that those that don't do what they did ARE morons. In fact it was a "pre-emptive" stike as Blib always seems to think that everyone I quote from is a moron! Sorry if it sounded like what you got out of it, MadDog.
About that pudding: if you don't try it, you won't know what's like! Same with Jesus! You don't try Him, and you don't know what he's like. You talk about a strictly fiction-Jesus, and I about a strictly non-fiction Jesus. By the way, it would be a REAL MIRACLE if you'd put me in a car and showed me NY, since I am living in Eastern-Europe, ha! By the way, I DO believe NY excists: my brother in law lives there, and he's shown me pictures. I've seen extensive coverage of the 11/9 things that unfolded, so I know. I saw it and believe it. Same with Jesus: I tried Him, He revealed Himself, and now I know!
Jesus also reveals Himself through different senses, not in the least through seeing, when you read His word!

9/11. Not 11/9. Nothing occured on November 9th. Sorry, I know our date system is in a different order in the States, but it is very commonly referred to as "Nine Eleven".

Beneck I misunderstood your comment about the "morons". You give the impression that you side with David Koresh, why? He manipulated people into doing wierd things sex, guns, etc... The ATF did screw up because they should have not killed the others, but in my eyes Koresh was nothing more then a pervert. Does the Bible teach us to have sex as being part of the quest to get into heaven? David Koresh was no more different then the Son of Sam, Ted Bundy, or some of these other perverts that have walked this planet.

As far as brainwashing goes, it does work that was Jim Jones biggest tool he kept playing the same message over and over on a load speaker. I believe it was around 900 hundred that died.

You are correct there are goofballs in every walk of life I was just using Christianity because that is what we are discussing. Druids don't really have a "bible"(so to speak) most of what they learn comes from history, most of what they feel comes from nature. There where Druid records at one time but when the Christians took over Ireland they ordered the records be burnt. Alot of Druids just went on to be Celtic Druid Christians. Alot of people mix Druids with Pagens which is far, far, from the truth. Druids can be many things or they can stay simple which is where I choose to be at this time in my life. I get just as mad as you when I am told by people(even my own family) that I will burn in he** or that I don't believe in an after life. Just because I have my doubts about the Bible does not mean that I do not believe that there is something else, when I am done with this world(or when this world is done with me).

No, dear MadDog, I wasn't even thinking about Koresh when I wrote that about morons. Like I said it was a pre-emptive strike against blib.
As far as siding with David Koresh: I am not very knowledgable of his doctrines and what not. However, weird or not, I always believed that in the States one is innocent unless proven guilty. In his case execution came before the courtcase! How else can I see this as religious persecution? I don't recall Clinton being besieged by ATF and tanks because of his involvement with Monica? I don't think they even tried to arrest him, and he wasn'tt removed from office either. Why the double-standard? Because Koresh was "a religious nut" and Clinton just "a political nut"?
Sorry, but I am not familiar with son of Sam, Ted Bundy etc, so can't say much on what they do/did.
I see your point about your own family. It's not a lot different with me. Although I am a Christian, I do not believe as I was taught when I grew up. I left the Catholic Church and instead found Jesus. I don't go to church, but can worship Him anywhere I want at any time. Why only on Sunday in Church? So, like Jesus said, "a man's foes shall be they of his own household", and so it is in many cases. I know I am not going to hell, because I am saved, but "those other guys" in my family, that are so sure I go to hell, might just land up there themselves, since they know not that their religion doesn't teach them right. (I guess in the Catolics case, if they happen to go to confession just before they die, they might just make it to Heaven or purgatory!)
It's very interesting what you said about druid religion and records. I suppose people do mix it up with heathen worship and/or witchcraft. Is there anywhere a website one can look for some info on your religion, or some general info about druid history? I love history, by the way!

Borghunter: why the self destruct cartoon on your last message? Is it that thing that puts a trojan horse on my computer all the time???

Originally posted by Beneck
Borghunter: why the self destruct cartoon on your last message? Is it that thing that puts a trojan horse on my computer all the time???
ROFL :D :D :D Did you honestly think that? Jeez...it's a random message; you see a different one every time.

Beneck, I do feel the same about Wacco as many do, the punishment came before the trial. This part was wrong but there was evidence for the government to go after David Koresh. It was wrong for D.K. to put his followers in harms way. He could have easily gave himself up, on day one, and stopped the killing himself. The ATF also could have waited and maybe things could have been different. Both the ATF and D.K. caused alot of blood shed and saddness that should have never happened.

Catholics are a tough group, I respect there thoughts on religion but I don't care for there opinion about people that aren't catholic. One that I always hear and can't stand is "they are catholic so they must be good folks".

There are alot of websites that post about druidism some are good some are shallow, and don't discuss the true meaning. I will see if I can dig up the ones that best describe the way I feel. It really is kind of simple but hard to explain. I have a very spiritual side but I also like facts and am willing to change when facts are presented. Example would be like when everyone believed the planet to be flat or the center of the universe, now we have proven these things to be false. I do not deny Jesus or the Bible I am just looking for the proof. I think it would be pretty kool if someone could come up with solid proof that the Bible really is the word of God. The only way I think it could be done is if God himself gave us a call. Like I said Druids can believe in many things, but the main belief is all things are important, no one thing is more important then another. God created all things so why do humans think they are the only ones allowed in heaven what about the animals, plants, etc.... Why do humans feel that the things put on this planet are here to serve them? All things serve each other. The Druid believe is about nature and how all things have to work together or else the balance is shifted and...... well sh** happens. Humans are greedy why would they be proud of this and say God loves them? Humans constantly destroy without giving back to the world(earth) that supports them, why? I am not perfect but through the years I am learning what is important and I also do my best to give something back. The day is comming when humans will destroy themselfs through greed. The earth will move on and probably give a big sigh of relief. Everything that happens is always about us(humans) what about this planet they we are getting a free ride on. I am not saying stop doing what we are doing I'm just saying stop and take alook at what we are doing. Start in the bathroom do we really need 5000 different chemicals to get our hair clean? Do we really need to have a race on every sunday just to see who can drive faster? (then turn around a b***h about fuel). Do we really need a MC. D's at every corner? These things are nice and fun to have around but we(humans) are getting lazy and greedy, and it will bite us in the arse in the end. We are forgeting the basics of life and swaping them for riches and power. Well I've posted to much, I will try and find a couple of druid sites for you.

Well, I don't know about this whole Waco thing. Most of what I know is what I saw on TV as it was unfolding. From all I know Koresh was attacked first by the ATF, which is what started the stand-off. Whoever you blame, it seems to me that it was the Uncle Sam western approach of "might is right". On their own people! With Clinton calling them all nuts. Well, it seems to me that the truth has not been said about that whole situation, and if the truth is not said, what could have been said? Like I said before, I don't know much about Koresh's teachings, but he seemed pretty normal to me!
Catholics are also changing! As a child I wasn't allowed to play on Sunday with my protestant friend. I think it doesn't matter so much anymore, ha! (At least not to me!) And...some Catholics ARE good folks. I think their leader is a good and godly man! I think their schooling is tops! Beats any public schooling I know of! They just need to see themselves more as human beings, that are not perfect and do make mistakes.
It says in the Bible that no one has seen God, and lived! So, I think He's just trying to protect us from Himself, ha! But seriously, it also says in the Bible that God is a spirit, and they that worship Him should worship Him in Spirit. I saw that you started a forum on a "Black God". I haven't read any on it, for as far as I am concerned God can be black, or blue or green. Doesn't really matter to me. But I believe His greatest proof is in His creation! Even, and I say even because I don't believe this theory, so, even if the "BIG BANG" theory is true, why not give God the glory for arranging everything so neatly as He did?
As far as your questions about MacD etc: I don't think we need all that stuff. People lived for centuries happy without it! Does it make THEM happy? No, just fat, ha! But seriously, MacD is a good sample of what not to do, because this is how they view God also: a junkfood God, or a junkGod. Go to church quickly for 15 minutes, done my "service" for Him, can do my own thing for the rest of the 7 days. Well, that's how it was in Noah's day (without the McDonald, ha), and God wiped everyone out for it because they were so vile and evil. Will He do it again now? No! He promised He wouldn't do that again. Instead people can come to repentance by getting to know Him, by reading the Testaments to mankind. Do they read it? The Bible is the bestseller of books for decades now, but if those people that buy it, actually read it, I don't know. Living as the Early Church did, after Jesus' resurrection, is what is the goal of the New Testament. Does anyone do it? Very few indeed, and those that do are being ridiculed and persecuted by the world. Well, praise the Lord, as they say, I guess poor Noah was persecuted too, ha!

D.K. was under investigation because of guns.

The "Black God thread" was not so much about what color God is.

The Bible is a big seller because every chain hotel buys one for each room(hmmmm). I don't disagree that the Bible is a good book(interesting) though.

I am still trying to find a site(druid) I found a couple but then they would either lump druids with pagans, or say that they sacrificed humans.

There is no proof that druids ever sacrificed anyone, actually history explains druids as being very peacefull.

Pagans don't believe in Christ, and alot of Druids do. Druids can be pagans, but pagans can not be druids so comparing the two is stupid.

I will keep searching I found a real good site last year but for some reason I can not find it now.