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Frogger
04-18-2007, 02:39 PM
In a chilling announcement the EU has said it plans to make denying the Holocaust a criminal offense with a penalty of up to three years in prison.

This will have a negative effect on freedom of speech. While I think those who deny the holocaust are wrong I think it is more wrong to criminalize denial.

By Tobias Buck in Brussels

Published: April 17 2007 19:56 | Last updated: April 17 2007 19:56

Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from ministers Thursday.

Offenders will face up to three years in jail under the proposed legislation, which will also apply to inciting violence against ethnic, religious or national groups.


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Diplomats in Brussels voiced confidence on Tuesday that the controversial plan, which has been the subject of heated debate for six years, will be endorsed by member states. However, the Baltic countries and Poland are still holding out for an inclusion of “Stalinist crimes” alongside the Holocaust in the text – a move that is being resisted by the majority of other EU countries.

The latest draft, seen by the Financial Times, will make it mandatory for all Union member states to punish public incitement “to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin”.

They will also have to criminalise “publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes” when such statements incite hatred or violence against minorities.

Diplomats stressed the provision had been carefully worded to include only denial of the Holocaust – the Nazi mass murder of Jews during the second world war – and the genocide in Rwanda in 1994.

They also stressed that the wording was designed to avoid criminalising comical plays or films about the Holocaust such as the Italian comedian Roberto Benigni’s prize-winning Life is Beautiful . The text expressly upholds countries’ constitutional traditions relating to the freedom of expression.

Holocaust denial is already a criminal offence in several European countries, including Germany and Austria. It is not a specific crime in Britain, though UK officials said it could already be tackled under existing legislation.

In an attempt to assuage Turkish fears, several EU diplomats said the provisions would not penalise the denial of mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman troops in the aftermath of the 1915 collapse of the Ottoman empire. Turkey strongly rejects claims that this episode amounted to genocide.

The proposal draws what is likely to be a controversial distinction between inciting violence against racial or ethnic groups and against religious groups. Attacks against Muslims, Jews or other faiths will only be penalised if they go on to incite violence against ethnic or racial groups, the draft text states.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007

Travh20
04-18-2007, 03:16 PM
So if you deny the halocaust happened or make a joke about it you go to jail? That's crazy. In this country we have "hate crimes" which are crimes based on what you were thinking when you commited a crime that would otherwise be punished by itself anyway.

paulc
04-18-2007, 03:36 PM
There was a man in Austria recently, jailed for denying the holocost, can find it on the net, sorry. I thnk he was english.
The good old EU, always has to be politically correct.

Frogger
04-18-2007, 03:38 PM
That was British historian David Irving.

It is scarey when historians who have unconventional theories are sent to jail by countries other than their own.

paulc
04-18-2007, 03:48 PM
Thats him thanks F. I thought at the time that because of Austrias history, it could have been a post war law to combat Nazi sentiments, but its 2007.

Dzerod
04-19-2007, 05:38 AM
3 years?? They apparently overshot with that.. Maybe some strong sionist-fanatic lobby in europarliament??

Overdose
04-20-2007, 01:53 AM
I find it hypocritical that they want to ban freedom of speech, when that is one of the very things Hitler did.

Evakian
04-20-2007, 05:36 AM
Where's astra? I miss the guy.

Liberal
04-21-2007, 03:35 AM
I believe it is either that the Jewish people have some power over the EU, or the EU still feels guilty for doing nothing against the Holocaust, and BTW it was the Holocaust of many, just remember, 50 million were suppose to die in WWII, 25 million were Russians, so who's Holocaust are we talking about?

Dzerod
04-21-2007, 05:11 AM
Holocaust was deliberate genocide against jews. Huge soviet casualities are explained by the fact that Soviet Union made a decisive contribution to the german defeat. Germans killed many people, war is war. But jews is a special case.
P.S. I can certainly say that there is no such russian who would recognize war as genocide aganist russians. National pride doesn't allow.. :D

LionelHutz
04-21-2007, 05:26 AM
just remember, 50 million were suppose to die in WWII

Was that something Chamberlain and Hitler hashed out before the war started?

Liberal
04-21-2007, 07:17 AM
Was that something Chamberlain and Hitler hashed out before the war started?

Well, you can't say they were 49'999,999 or 50'000,001
Or do you?

Evakian
04-21-2007, 07:33 AM
In a chilling announcement...
What? But...but...it's Springtime!

For Hitler. In Germany.

Deutschland, is happy, and gay!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/da/Springtime_for_Hitler_Roger.gif

Liberal
04-21-2007, 08:07 AM
What? But...but...it's Springtime!

For Hitler. In Germany.

Deutschland, is happy, and gay!



Hey! thanks for the Bush picture, he looks great, and I thought it was Cheney his ...

astrapol2
04-23-2007, 06:55 AM
Where's astra? I miss the guy.

Hi !

About this issue, it's not as much a "freedom of speech" issue as a "incitation to racial hatred" issue. Maybe seen from the US whzere the political situation is quite different from Europe this seems odd, but we have many people here who are very busy trying to make nazism seem acceptable by denying nazi crimes. And many people too whose family were slaughtered by the nazis and who are strongly offended by such negationists.

I really don't believe than the EU is under the influence of a strong jewish lobby.

500lbguerilla
04-23-2007, 04:59 PM
About this issue, it's not as much a "freedom of speech" issue as a "incitation to racial hatred" issue. thats crap. If people are saying we should kill jews, blacks etc then fine its 'racial hatred' but argueing over a historical event is the destruction of freedom of speech.

“History is the lie commonly agreed upon.” --Voltaire

paulc
04-23-2007, 05:02 PM
I cant understand why its such a big deal if people say it never happened. Theres enough evidence lying around proving it very much did happen. These people are in denial.

Evakian
04-23-2007, 05:04 PM
I cant understand why its such a big deal if people say it never happened. Theres enough evidence lying around proving it very much did happen. These people are in denial.
Like creationists. Oooh, perhaps the EU will ban the invocation of the phrase "intelligent design" and propagation of its teaching soon.

warrior1972
04-23-2007, 05:16 PM
should we make it a crime to deny america stole the land from the native Americans committed mass murder of them.
HMMM?

500lbguerilla
04-23-2007, 05:41 PM
Turkey was trying to jail a historian for pointing out their gencidal war of inception (he has since been murdered)

http://mondediplo.com/2001/09/11armenian

Thislin
04-23-2007, 05:48 PM
Like creationists. Oooh, perhaps the EU will ban the invocation of the phrase "intelligent design" and propagation of its teaching soon.
I have to think it goes further than denial and becomes something genuinely evil.

Evakian
04-23-2007, 05:53 PM
I have to think it goes further than denial and becomes something genuinely evil.
How is denying the Holocaust "evil"? It is a rejection of factual history, just as creationism is the rejection of the geological and biological history of the Earth.

Neither of which should be banned, if we want to preserve free speech.

Frogger
04-23-2007, 06:10 PM
Were I a European I would be much more afraid of having my freedom of speech abrogated than having some idiots deny the holocaust.

WindWip
04-23-2007, 07:09 PM
I believe it is either that the Jewish people have some power over the EU, or the EU still feels guilty for doing nothing against the Holocaust, and BTW it was the Holocaust of many, just remember, 50 million were suppose to die in WWII, 25 million were Russians, so who's Holocaust are we talking about?

25 million Russians died because of Stalin's stupidity. They did not believe that Germany would attack them, since it would mean that they would be battling on two (three?) fronts. An order was given to NOT RETURN FIRE IF FIRED UPON! And the majority of these Russian soldiers were not prepared for battle at all, they were peasants, not soldiers.

This bill will fail. If it doesn't, think of the repercussions. You could be jailed for saying bad things about the current administration, the president etc...

WindWip
04-23-2007, 07:09 PM
Were I a European I would be much more afraid of having my freedom of speech abrogated than having some idiots deny the holocaust.

I agree completely.

godsandmen
04-23-2007, 07:47 PM
I cant understand why its such a big deal if people say it never happened. Theres enough evidence lying around proving it very much did happen. These people are in denial.


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/godsandmen/politics/hitler/1175319882.jpg

:)

godsandmen
04-23-2007, 08:52 PM
Oops, sorry about that - I quoted the wrong post.

paulc
04-24-2007, 12:59 AM
Thank you god

jerejerebinks
04-24-2007, 08:02 AM
Oops, sorry about that - I quoted the wrong post.

Ah, behold - the edit button!


The picture made me chuckle though.



In response to this thread - yeah, it's illogical for someone to deny the holocaust and if someone chooses to do so they should be looked upon with a constant :rolleyes: expression from everyone around them. That said, you can't make it a criminal offense to not believe in something. Though, whoever said you had to have free speech in Europe?