...............

Imagine a world free of hate and bigotry, where everyone is politically correct all the time, because we've realized that everybody is exactly the same (except for the differently abled). Imagine a world where churches have been demolished, and in their place, nature sanctuaries to protect and delight all the little animals. This world flows chocolate streams and is covered in gumdrop trees. Imagine a world where puppies and kittens fall from rainbows into the waiting arms of smiling children. Medicine is free, and doctors are paid equally as Sanitation Engineers, because everyone has their own personal money tree. Every friday night, the entire human race forms a big hand-holding circle and sings John Lennon songs until crystal clear new day arrives and government employees, with big grins and pleasant attitudes deliver the day's supplies and the morning edition of the Daily Worker. Life is beautiful in Liberaltopia.

Now wake the fuck up and get back to work!


Now a serious response:
Read about the chinese theory of the Dynistic Cycle. The rise and fall of empires is as natural and inevitable as living and dying. All we can hope for is to leave a relic of our fleeting glory.

They say the true Pax Romana was the greatest time period this planet has ever known--very few wars and conflicts.
If there ever was a Utopia on Earth, it was that.


QUOTE=Evil Homer]
Now a serious response:
Read about the chinese theory of the Dynistic Cycle. The rise and fall of empires is as natural and inevitable as living and dying. All we can hope for is to leave a relic of our fleeting glory.[/QUOTE]

And I wonder what that will be. What will we leave behind for the civilizations 5 thousand years from now to remember us by?????

Gotta admit, living in the "Pax Americana" is a pretty cushy life. I don't think our "empire" is going to collapse anytime during my life anyways so whatever.

Life is beautiful in Liberaltopia.


Liberals are not the only ones with utopian fantasies.

The "free market" fantasy of the conservatives is just as silly and unrealistic.

They say the true Pax Romana was the greatest time period this planet has ever known--very few wars and conflicts.
If there ever was a Utopia on Earth, it was that.
The Roman Peace held from Trajan to Commodus (but not including Commodus' rule). That is a little over a century and a half. The rest of the time Rome was in a near-constant state of Civil War and corrupt rule. Even during the Roman Peace there was constant foreign warfare.

I don't know how it could have been called "Utopia," since the only real benefit was a certain security from barbarian encroachment. A third of the population were slaves and most of the rest were subsistence farmers or urban laborers, living in horrible conditions.

Read about the chinese theory of the Dynistic Cycle. The rise and fall of empires is as natural and inevitable as living and dying. All we can hope for is to leave a relic of our fleeting glory.
The dynastic cycle is brought about by the steady increase in bureaucracy and their rules and the legal system that attaches itself. Periodically all the bureaucrats and lawyers have to be slaughtered in a dynasty change so as to refresh the nation.

That does seem to be what is happening in America. The idea of elections was to provide a peaceful way to achieve dynasty change, but the bureaucrats and lawyers have now effectively defeated popular will.

Liberals are not the only ones with utopian fantasies.

The "free market" fantasy of the conservatives is just as silly and unrealistic.
You actually think the typical Corporation wants free competition and a genuine market economy?

I don't know how it could have been called "Utopia," since the only real benefit was a certain security from barbarian encroachment. A third of the population were slaves and most of the rest were subsistence farmers or urban laborers, living in horrible conditions.

.

I don't know, thislin----sounds pretty nice to me. I wouldn't have minded living then.

From this website:

http://www.unrv.com/early-empire/pax-romana.php








Pax Romana
The Pax Romana, or Roman Peace, is a Latin term referring to the Empire in its glorified prime. From the end of the Republican civil wars, beginning with the accession of Augustus in 27 BC, this era in Roman history lasted until 180 AD and the death of Marcus Aurelius. Though the use of the word 'Peace' may be a bit misleading, this period refers mainly to the great Romanization of the western world. The Roman legal system which forms the basis of many western court systems today brought law and order to the provinces. The Legions patrolled the borders with success, and though there were still many foreign wars, the internal empire was free from major invasion, piracy or social disorder on any grand scale. The empire, wracked with civil war for the last century of the Republic, and for years following the Pax Romana, was largely free of large scale power disputes. Only the year 69 AD, the so-called 'Year of the Four Emperors', following the fall of Nero and the Julio-Claudian line, interrupted nearly 200 years of civil order. Even this was only a minor hiccup in comparison to other eras. The arts and architecture flourished as well, along with commerce and the economy.



PS Are you a Roman historian?
You appear very knowledgable on this topic. :)


PPS Rome was the light of civilization of that time. True, even the bad conditions there for many, were still better than how other peoples lived.


PPS Maybe we should move this to the history forum......

Your source identifies the beginning of the "Golden Age" with Augustus, while I wait until Trajan. That way one doesn't include the misrule of Tiberius and "Caligula" and the civil war after Nero.

It seems the positive here is the spread of Latin culture in the West (the Greek culture of the East remained and pre-dated the Romans). I don't know if Roman chauvinism--insisting that conquered peoples "take the toga"--can be considered enlightened. It did have the effect of establishing Latin in the West, along with the extinction of many native languages.

I also don't know that the typical inhabitant of the Empire was any better off than an inhabitant, of, say, a German tribe or of the Sassanid Empire. By our standards it was all barbaric, and unbelievably class ridden, all maintined by nothing other than brute force.

I agree that all this is offset by some episodes of efficient rule, which elevated overall living standards, but mainly only for the wealthy and well-placed. In the meantime the old democracies--of Rome and elsewhere--were replaced by absolute autocracy.

I agree that all this is offset by some episodes of efficient rule, which elevated overall living standards, but mainly only for the wealthy and well-placed. In the meantime the old democracies--of Rome and elsewhere--were replaced by absolute autocracy.

That's true, but many a young boy of reasonable intelligence and a fair background rose quite high in their society--rather like ours today.

Women, tho, were treated as second class citizens--they had little say in anything, and IMO the Romans, in this respect, took a back seat to the Vikings, where women had rights and responsibilities. ...and Norse women could even divorce an unwanted husband by merely saying out loud, that she wanted to dump him.

You'd sure never see that in Rome, or even HERE.

I don't know that a young lad of ambition and intelligence had much chance to get anywhere in Rome if he didn't have wealthy and connected relatives.

The society was run much like the movies portray the Mafia--it was a "client" society where one got on only by attaching oneself to some rich sponsor and doing his bidding.

To be anything important one had to have had important ancestors--especially have an ancestor who was once Consul. Membership in the Senatorial and Equestrian classes was openly and legally based entirely on wealth. This meant a lot--they were spared taxes, allowed to wear special distinctive togas, given preferential seating at all events, had special voting powers, and so on and on.

Earlier, during the Republican era, we have a few examples of less well connected individuals rising to importance (actually only Cicero comes to mind), but these doors were steadily closed off.

It is true several freedmen rose to importance in the civil service, but they remained "freedmen," and never entered the ruling classes.

Funny that you should compare Rome to the mafia... My history professor did just that on Monday. We've just started studying Rome and probably will do so until the end of the semester, I can't think that we'd fit in anything else in the next month.