Oh ! How Big of Iran.
Such World stage theatrics of Humanitarianism.
What a deed of Statesmanship.
Real brinksmanship of Diplomacy.
I wonder what Iran has up it's sleeve,Next.?

Sounds like a no win situation to me. If they keep them they are bastards, if they let them go they must have something up their sleeves. Can't you just appreciate the fact that they weren't harmed and are going home?

Sounds like a no win situation to me. If they keep them they are bastards, if they let them go they must have something up their sleeves. Can't you just appreciate the fact that they weren't harmed and are going home?
i'm happy for them, but England should feel like the guy who sees a car thief bring his car back.

i'm happy for them, but England should feel like the guy who sees a car thief bring his car back.

Interestink analogy.
Or methaphor.
Or simile.
Butt,England surely cannot feel proud of it's 15 soldiers.
A soldier has a duty to NOT get captured,and then to
NOT Willy-Nilly,kinda assist their captors.

Interestink analogy.
Or methaphor.
Or simile.
Butt,England surely cannot feel proud of it's 15 soldiers.
A soldier has a duty to NOT get captured,and then to
NOT Willy-Nilly,kinda assist their captors.

No doubt you would have behaved better under the circumstances.

No doubt you would have behaved better under the circumstances.

Figgers ! Your type are so enabling.
I don't suppose you ever saw > The Bridge on the River Kwai {1957}
or even > The Great Escape.
What about > Stalag 17 . Where a captured Lieutenant Pilot
was deprived sleep & made to stand-up hours on end.
A soldiers first obligation when captured is his initial training
and NOT helping to enable their Captors.
Just ask John McCain.Whose Pops was an Admiral,and coulda
made life easy for him at the Hanoi Hilton.
Butt,McCain,to his credit,stepped up to the plate and did the
Manly,American thingy.

Didn't John McCain also break under torture and sign a confession?

Figgers ! Your type are so enabling.
I don't suppose you ever saw > The Bridge on the River Kwai {1957}
or even > The Great Escape.
What about > Stalag 17 .

Seen 'em all more than once, great movies.


Where a captured Lieutenant Pilot
was deprived sleep & made to stand-up hours on end.
A soldiers first obligation when captured is his initial training
and NOT helping to enable their Captors.
Just ask John McCain.Whose Pops was an Admiral,and coulda
made life easy for him at the Hanoi Hilton.
Butt,McCain,to his credit,stepped up to the plate and did the
Manly,American thingy.

I suppose the fact that the British aren't at war with Iran is irrelevant.

Seen 'em all more than once, great movies.



I suppose the fact that the British aren't at war with Iran is irrelevant.

That would be the mindset of Iran,in order to GET AWAY with
More shit.
I heard a high ranking Colonel,On Tucker tonight,say
he'd never have allowed himself to be taken hostage.
This whole idea'r that Iran has ABSOLUTE Card Blanche to
pull this shit w/o any repurcussions.
Iran needs to comprehend,that their just a few bombing missions
{Sorties} from being taken back to the stone age.
Fuch their 20% world oil supply.

That would be the mindset of Iran,in order to GET AWAY with
More shit.
I heard a high ranking Colonel,On Tucker tonight,say
he'd never have allowed himself to be taken hostage.


What would he have done?!??.....is he implying that he would have killed himself instead........?!?!?

Fuch their 20% world oil supply.

No.....fuch anyone who cavalierly talks about bombing nations "back to the Stone Age".

Didn't John McCain also break under torture and sign a confession?
Torture or not, it should be military policy to say or do whatever your captors want, short of revealing military secrets. State that openly and the captors have little to gain.

These "confession" performances are all seen by the world for what they are, so they only convince fools. The welfare of the captive is worth that.

Torture or not, it should be military policy to say or do whatever your captors want, short of revealing military secrets. State that openly and the captors have little to gain.

These "confession" performances are all seen by the world for what they are, so they only convince fools. The welfare of the captive is worth that.

ADMIT. Yer on a THISLIN { Tangent } again.
You just can't help yerself.
Yer entirely stewed. Any formidable Military has prepared it's
combatans {soldiers} for the eventuality of capture.
A soldier should do as McCain did in Vietnam.
Just remain stoic and steadfast with the basics.
No willing to write little bread & butter notes for public consumption.
No going before the camera and admittting ANYTHING.
No letting Iran's psychological divide & conquer captive scheme to gain
a foothold.
You really need to brush up on all those great War Movies.

hey uh dharma, just for the record, all be it off topic, the war on drugs has been going on for a long long time. (in reference to your sig)

No.....fuch anyone who cavalierly talks about bombing nations "back to the Stone Age".
for most of their population, the stone age is only a 5 minute donkey ride anyways.

hey uh dharma, just for the record, all be it off topic, the war on drugs has been going on for a long long time. (in reference to your sig)

So?

The war on Drugs hasn't ended yet either.

That means we are still paying for it.

These "confession" performances are all seen by the world for what they are, so they only convince fools.

Oh DO enlighten us, O great and all knowing Thislin. :rolleyes:

Oh DO enlighten us, O great and all knowing Thislin. :rolleyes:

It certainly makes the British Armed Services,appear like
Pawns and Schmucks.
I mean,if they're that easily coerced to turn,what does that
say about the mettle of their overall troop mindset.

It certainly makes the British Armed Services,appear like
Pawns and Schmucks.
I mean,if they're that easily coerced to turn,what does that
say about the mettle of their overall troop mindset.

He apparently thinks they are incredibly weak.

He apparently thinks they are incredibly weak.

Yup.Like the Michelin Man arm-Wrestling the Pillsbury Doughboy.
Doughboys used to be tough.

Anyone who hasn't been a POW shouldn't be passing judgement on those sailors and marines. I don't think we can fathom what it's like, regardless of how many war movies we've seen.

Anyone who hasn't been a POW shouldn't be passing judgement on those sailors and marines. I don't think we can fathom what it's like, regardless of how many war movies we've seen.

I tend to agree.The old - unless one walks a mile in my shoes -
and all.But,these British Servicemen,& Woman,had a duty to
past British history and it's import.They,in a single stroke,slightly
jeopardized the Honor and glory of all those British,over the years,
who fought gallantly and served as P.O.W's with dignity and resolve.
They caved,almost immediately.They cowered and showed a face to
the entire World,that Past performance of Glory,is no longer a thing
to uphold.
It's a really Sad footnote in the annals of British Armed capture.
The Queen no Longer means Squat.
The Brits no Longer honor Face.

Foolsworth, just curious, have you ever been a POW?

Foolsworth, just curious, have you ever been a POW?

I realize the pathetic role of Leftists.
They have to unnerve with such tactics as :
" Unless you served or were a P.O.W. " then you have no cause
to comment.
But,that is mere Liberal pap OR Schadenfreude.
The ability to discount another's comments,based on linear
thinking or bludgeoning Bias.

I realize the pathetic role of Leftists.
They have to unnerve with such tactics as :
" Unless you served or were a P.O.W. " then you have no cause
to comment.


That was not my post.

I asked you if you have ever been a POW.

Have you?

That was not my post.

I asked you if you have ever been a POW.

Have you?

Of course I haven't.You gigantic leap of Lunacy.
I haven't Been a legislator or a dentist,nor a
Librarian or chiropractor.
I wasn't a Trucker or a Truancy Officer and
probably won't be a Priest anytime soon.
Maybe a Monk,dough.
Yer whole point or Schtick is as simple as yer Polemic.
I'm guessin you'd prefer all Priests to have Nuns
do their Laundry.Because that is the impression.
Just Like,ALL P.O.W,'s or Soldiers have poetic license
to defer comments on their experience,exclusive of all others.
That's NOT how the World or God intended the Nature of Man.
I don't have to Fish or Hunt to appreciate the glory of nature or
even the grandieur of animals.
-----------------------------------------------
Walden {1854}
" From the desperate city you go into the desperate country,and
have to confront yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats.
A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under
what are called the games and amusments of mankind.
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. "
-- Henry David Thoreau

Anyone who hasn't been a POW shouldn't be passing judgement on those sailors and marines. I don't think we can fathom what it's like, regardless of how many war movies we've seen.
Amen.

I heard on the BBC, just a few minutes ago, that the British have quit boarding and inspecting ships in the Persian Gulf as a result of the hostage taking. What I am wondering is what the Iranians wanted to smuggle in, thus avoiding the U.N. sanctions. The way is open now, whatever it is.

I tend to agree.The old - unless one walks a mile in my shoes -
and all.But,these British Servicemen,& Woman,had a duty to
past British history and it's import.They,in a single stroke,slightly
jeopardized the Honor and glory of all those British,over the years,
who fought gallantly and served as P.O.W's with dignity and resolve.
They caved,almost immediately.They cowered and showed a face to
the entire World,that Past performance of Glory,is no longer a thing
to uphold.
It's a really Sad footnote in the annals of British Armed capture.
The Queen no Longer means Squat.
The Brits no Longer honor Face.

People no longer believe they should just give up the one and possibly only life they have in order to look brave for the world or to reinforce some trumped up past glory. Dead is dead. Your crticism of them is the sad footnote in the annals of humanity or lack there of. The Queen means squat because as a human being she is no more than you nor I nor them. Honouring "face" should be saved for the playground and promises made to each other in the safety of your home, not on the war grounds.

Of course I haven't.You gigantic leap of Lunacy.
I haven't Been a legislator or a dentist,nor a
Librarian or chiropractor.
I wasn't a Trucker or a Truancy Officer and
probably won't be a Priest anytime soon.
Maybe a Monk,dough.
Yer whole point or Schtick is as simple as yer Polemic.
I'm guessin you'd prefer all Priests to have Nuns
do their Laundry.Because that is the impression.
Just Like,ALL P.O.W,'s or Soldiers have poetic license
to defer comments on their experience,exclusive of all others.
That's NOT how the World or God intended the Nature of Man.
I don't have to Fish or Hunt to appreciate the glory of nature or
even the grandieur of animals.
-----------------------------------------------
Walden {1854}
" From the desperate city you go into the desperate country,and
have to confront yourself with the bravery of minks and muskrats.
A stereotyped but unconscious despair is concealed even under
what are called the games and amusments of mankind.
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. "
-- Henry David Thoreau

I only asked because the way you write reminds me very much of the way an old roomate of mine when I lived in California used to speak. He was an old hippy who had been a POW in Vietnam. He was very intelligent, but...trippy.

ADMIT. Yer on a THISLIN { Tangent } again.
You just can't help yerself.
Yer entirely stewed. Any formidable Military has prepared it's
combatans {soldiers} for the eventuality of capture.
A soldier should do as McCain did in Vietnam.
Just remain stoic and steadfast with the basics.
No willing to write little bread & butter notes for public consumption.
No going before the camera and admittting ANYTHING.
No letting Iran's psychological divide & conquer captive scheme to gain
a foothold.
You really need to brush up on all those great War Movies.
I understand what you say, but I don't think we should put such a burden on our soldiers, especially since I don't think it achieves anything except help the enemy.

If it were announced military policy that captives should cooperate with their captors in all respects except giving away military information, then when these people are brought out like that, it would be meaningless. Washington would only quote the established policy and say that they are doing what they have been told to do.

I think this would make the business much less valuable to the other side, so that they would be much less likely to do it.

There is a thin line between heroism and foolish martyrdom. It is a little like the fables of the Christians being thrown to the lions for refusing to throw a pinch of incense at Caesar's statue. A genuine, loving, God would say, "Throw the damn stuff. I know what is in your heart, and I want you to live and enjoy life. That is why I gave it to you."

People no longer believe they should just give up the one and possibly only life they have in order to look brave for the world or to reinforce some trumped up past glory. Dead is dead. Your crticism of them is the sad footnote in the annals of humanity or lack there of. The Queen means squat because as a human being she is no more than you nor I nor them. Honouring "face" should be saved for the playground and promises made to each other in the safety of your home, not on the war grounds.

I dunno quite what to make of that. Surely there are things you would give your life for, and you retain the right to decide, so why not allow others to reach a different conclusion?

For example, the Queen is a dowdy old lady heading a dysfunctional family, with something of a selfish airhead for a Crown Prince. But, she is also an icon. It is not her person but what she represents. A nation, especially one as enlightened and advanced as Britain, with its culture and people and history, is well worth dying for.

We all die sooner or later, so that making much of our personal existence is an exercise in futility. Many would rather have their deaths achieve something than fade into oblivion in a nursing home.

There is a thin line between heroism and foolish martyrdom. It is a little like the fables of the Christians being thrown to the lions for refusing to throw a pinch of incense at Caesar's statue. A genuine, loving, God would say, "Throw the damn stuff. I know what is in your heart, and I want you to live and enjoy life. That is why I gave it to you."[/QUOTE]

Not to me thar ain't.
A true Hero or Martyr,are readidly spotted.Almost like an
albino Hyena.But one with the heart of a Lion.
They seldom screech,howl or laugh like Hyena,but they do
waiit {usually patiently} like a hyena to set their sights on the
bidness at hand.Hyena are extremely tough.
A Hero or a Martyr are also tough,but usually in ways that
are esoteric.Internal strength.Strength of conviction and resolve.
Strength of Purpose and fairness.

The Brothers Karamazov {1880}
" Mankind will reject and kill their prophets,but men love their
martyrs and honour those whom they have done to death. "
-- Dostoyevski

I only asked because the way you write reminds me very much of the way an old roomate of mine when I lived in California used to speak. He was an old hippy who had been a POW in Vietnam. He was very intelligent, but...trippy.

wouldnt it be easier just to PM him and say "joe, is taht you? its bill from cali"

The person you admire as a "true hero" may not have his head quite on straight.

I would have no problem dying to save my family, or even a stranger in danger, if it was a measured risk. Nor would I have any problem dying "for my country" in a similar situation.

But for a war captive to put his safety or life on the line for any reason other than to protect military information is just silly. If "they" are determined enough and skillful enough, they can get any "confession" they may want out of anyone. In fact, about the only way to protect military information is to avoid their becoming aware you have it.

The person you admire as a "true hero" may not have his head quite on straight.

I would have no problem dying to save my family, or even a stranger in danger, if it was a measured risk. Nor would I have any problem dying "for my country" in a similar situation.

But for a war captive to put his safety or life on the line for any reason other than to protect military information is just silly. If "they" are determined enough and skillful enough, they can get any "confession" they may want out of anyone. In fact, about the only way to protect military information is to avoid their becoming aware you have it.

I beg your Martyrdom AND Warring.
What Irtan did by capturing those innocent 15 Brits was a Test.
Like War is a test.A test of mettle and saving face and making
good on promises and even to avenge and take back what was
rightly ot wrongly perceived as an injustice or seizure {land}.

Maybe If the Brits also tested Iran,by calling their bluff and making
Immediate demands or else.
Like... what's been proffered by a few Neocons.
Iran... Immediately set free those 15 or we'll sink yer entire Navy.
Experts say it mite take as long as an HOUR.
OK...Maybe Two Hrs. on the outside.
Outside iran's Lyin,filthy corrupt, and totally disingenuous
way of persenting fact,as if truth and also their entire
history of such despicable behavior.
They need to be carpet bombed,just for the test.
And don't dare assume we'll just tick em off more.
They've been out of their mind,uncontrollable for years.
Ever since they saw how the '79 Hostage Crisis,yielded ABSOLUTELY NO
Penalty.

"All is well that ends well." In this case the captives were released, the oil continues to flow, and the Iranian government moderates seem to have carried the day.

A bellicose British reaction might well have brought a very different ending.

There is considerable hope that the present regime in Iran is not secure. Certainly the young of the population--who are a numeric majority--don't like it much. I think given wisdom and patience in the West, the regime will evolve into something much more palatable.

The problem of nuclear dissemination remains, and here it is essential that the West take a firm line. Distractions like the British sailors only take attention away from this important issue. Now the world can turn back to it.

"All is well that ends well." In this case the captives were released, the oil continues to flow, and the Iranian government moderates seem to have carried the day.

A bellicose British reaction might well have brought a very different ending.

There is considerable hope that the present regime in Iran is not secure. Certainly the young of the population--who are a numeric majority--don't like it much. I think given wisdom and patience in the West, the regime will evolve into something much more palatable.

The problem of nuclear dissemination remains, and here it is essential that the West take a firm line. Distractions like the British sailors only take attention away from this important issue. Now the world can turn back to it.

Iran has one Lone card to deal.Their Oil and possible ability
to instigate Terrorism.THAT'S it.
They need to be Reigned-in and Immedialtely.
They have to be bombed.They've exhausted ALL other options.
Take out their One Refinnery and start kidnapping their Clerics.
Give em a real whoppin dose of their own medicine.
I mean,like what good does bein civil do.It only emboldens them like
the International Brat Bullies they are.
I say...Make em Pay ....NOW. Before too mush time elapses.
It can't possibly make any matters worse.

wouldnt it be easier just to PM him and say "joe, is taht you? its bill from cali"

No, that would just sound crazy.

I say...Make em Pay ....NOW. Before too mush time elapses.
It can't possibly make any matters worse.


Famous Last Words...

Iran has one Lone card to deal.Their Oil and possible ability
to instigate Terrorism.THAT'S it.
They need to be Reigned-in and Immedialtely.
They have to be bombed.They've exhausted ALL other options.
Take out their One Refinnery and start kidnapping their Clerics.
Give em a real whoppin dose of their own medicine.
I mean,like what good does bein civil do.It only emboldens them like
the International Brat Bullies they are.
I say...Make em Pay ....NOW. Before too mush time elapses.
It can't possibly make any matters worse.
Well, I need to take a deep breath before responding to that. First, I wonder if you are serious here.

If you are, then I have to say I agree with your approach, but would urge tempering it with a sense of practicality. That a state "deserves" such treatment does not mean that it is wise, in a complicated world, to carry it out.

Well, I need to take a deep breath before responding to that. First, I wonder if you are serious here.

If you are, then I have to say I agree with your approach, but would urge tempering it with a sense of practicality. That a state "deserves" such treatment does not mean that it is wise, in a complicated world, to carry it out.

THE only way to deal with these Rogue regimes,like Saddam & Sons
is to call their bluff and go in with full force.
See how Kadafi caved and how Saddam & Sons fled,as soon as
Iraqi Freedom started.
Diplomacy is THE worst weapon a civilized Power has.
The UN is a joke.They live to talk and grope for money,but
couldn't give a whit about real Peacekeeping efforts.
In point of fact,It pays the UN to have instability.
If the United States keeps up with this silly posturing then
the Inmates will have control of the Penitentiary.
I realize the Pat Buchannan's of the World insist that Iran
hasn't started a War,in 30 years,but they sure as shootin find ways to
Organize and fund Warring.They have supplied the IED's to Insurgents
in Iraq,and also infiltrated their own home grown Iranian insurgents
into Iraq thru Syria.Plus Hezzbollah and the Lebanon strife.

THE only way to deal with these Rogue regimes,like Saddam & Sons
is to call their bluff and go in with full force.
See how Kadafi caved and how Saddam & Sons fled,as soon as
Iraqi Freedom started.
Diplomacy is THE worst weapon a civilized Power has.
The UN is a joke.They live to talk and grope for money,but
couldn't give a whit about real Peacekeeping efforts.
In point of fact,It pays the UN to have instability.
If the United States keeps up with this silly posturing then
the Inmates will have control of the Penitentiary.
I realize the Pat Buchannan's of the World insist that Iran
hasn't started a War,in 30 years,but they sure as shootin find ways to
Organize and fund Warring.They have supplied the IED's to Insurgents
in Iraq,and also infiltrated their own home grown Iranian insurgents
into Iraq thru Syria.Plus Hezzbollah and the Lebanon strife.
If one were God with unlimited resources and ruling a nation with unlimited understanding and patience, that would be the right way to go.

As things are, however, one has to pick and choose when to push and when to play games.

I dunno quite what to make of that. Surely there are things you would give your life for, and you retain the right to decide, so why not allow others to reach a different conclusion?

The captives responded the way they did because of the pressure exerted upon them. Criticizing their response by saying they should behave differently for some age old presentation of a countries honour is ridiculous.


For example, the Queen is a dowdy old lady heading a dysfunctional family, with something of a selfish airhead for a Crown Prince. But, she is also an icon. It is not her person but what she represents. A nation, especially one as enlightened and advanced as Britain, with its culture and people and history, is well worth dying for. If that is your opinion then that is fine. You may well think a figure head is worth giving your life for. However, they were the ones in uniform and the ones captured. Thus they get to decide what they find worthy of giving their life for. Criticizing them is an exercise in futility.


We all die sooner or later, so that making much of our personal existence is an exercise in futility. Many would rather have their deaths achieve something than fade into oblivion in a nursing home. Yes, but dusty old men in arm chairs should not be the ones to decide who lives and dies and what worth another's life has. Nor what constitutes valour. Nor how another should behave while captured. How one thinks and acts while in the safety of one's own home and how one thinks and acts in a strange land while being threatened with death may change one's behaviour a tad. Also while all life should be considered sacred, death to a 70 year old doesn't quite equate to the death of a 20 year old.

The captives responded the way they did because of the pressure exerted upon them. Criticizing their response by saying they should behave differently for some age old presentation of a countries honour is ridiculous.


If that is your opinion then that is fine. You may well think a figure head is worth giving your life for. However, they were the ones in uniform and the ones captured. Thus they get to decide what they find worthy of giving their life for. Criticizing them is an exercise in futility.


Yes, but dusty old men in arm chairs should not be the ones to decide who lives and dies and what worth another's life has. Nor what constitutes valour. Nor how another should behave while captured. How one thinks and acts while in the safety of one's own home and how one thinks and acts in a strange land while being threatened with death may change one's behaviour a tad. Also while all life should be considered sacred, death to a 70 year old doesn't quite equate to the death of a 20 year old.
Methinks you have not been reading what I posted earlier on this thread. I am fully in agreement with you that the British sailors acted fine and I would have done much the same in their shoes. I am not one for heroism or martyrdom when nothing is to be achieved by it.

It is perhaps a middle course I advocate--I am not against personal sacrifice but I am against foolish personal sacrifice. Perhaps people can be given education about how to assess this (since such things are a personal decision), but who is to educate the educators?

If one decides to join a military force, then one is obliged to be a soldier, and this means you no longer are a civilian. I don't know if you comprehend the moral and legal and social distinction. An army cannot be made of individuals: it must be a single unit as far as that is possible, or it will fail and all will perish.

Regarding living or dying for an icon, I don't think you quite have it right. No one dies for a Constitutional Monarch. The sacrifice is for the nation and the Queen is just a way of expressing that using an icon. Icons are symbols the way words are symbols--but underneath there is a reality.

Methinks you have not been reading what I posted earlier on this thread. I am fully in agreement with you that the British sailors acted fine and I would have done much the same in their shoes. I am not one for heroism or martyrdom when nothing is to be achieved by it.

It is perhaps a middle course I advocate--I am not against personal sacrifice but I am against foolish personal sacrifice. Perhaps people can be given education about how to assess this (since such things are a personal decision), but who is to educate the educators?

If one decides to join a military force, then one is obliged to be a soldier, and this means you no longer are a civilian. I don't know if you comprehend the moral and legal and social distinction. An army cannot be made of individuals: it must be a single unit as far as that is possible, or it will fail and all will perish.

Regarding living or dying for an icon, I don't think you quite have it right. No one dies for a Constitutional Monarch. The sacrifice is for the nation and the Queen is just a way of expressing that using an icon. Icons are symbols the way words are symbols--but underneath there is a reality.

Actually Thislin, I did read your other responses and we pretty much agreed on this particular issue or so I had thought. I was merely responding to what you wrote to me which pretty much contradicted everything you had posted earlier.