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Evil Homer
03-30-2007, 09:15 PM
Science Without Religion is lame.

The following is very long, but also fascinating. I highly suggest taking the time to read it.

During the last century, and part of the one before, it was widely held that there was an unreconcilable conflict between knowledge and belief. The opinion prevailed among advanced minds that it was time that belief should be replaced increasingly by knowledge; belief that did not itself rest on knowledge was superstition, and as such had to be opposed. According to this conception, the sole function of education was to open the way to thinking and knowing, and the school, as the outstanding organ for the people's education, must serve that end exclusively.

One will probably find but rarely, if at all, the rationalistic standpoint expressed in such crass form; for any sensible man would see at once how one-sided is such a statement of the position. But it is just as well to state a thesis starkly and nakedly if one wants to clear up one's mind as to its nature.

It is true that convictions can best be supported with experience and clear thinking. On this point one must agree unreservedly with the extreme rationalist. The weak point of his conception is, however, this, that those convictions which are necessary and determinant for our conduct and judgments cannot be found solely along this solid scientific way.

For the scientific method can teach us nothing else beyond how facts are related to, and conditioned by, each other. The aspiration toward such objective knowledge belongs to the highest of which man is capable, and you will certainly not suspect me of wishing to belittle the achievements and the heroic efforts of man in this sphere. Yet it is equally clear that knowledge of what is does not open the door directly to what should be. One, can have the clearest and most complete knowledge of is, and yet not be able to deduct from that what should be the goal of our human aspirations. Objective knowledge provide us with powerful instruments for the achievements of certain ends, but the ultimate goal itself and the longing to reach it must come from another source. And it is hardly necessary to argue for the view that our existence and our activity acquire meaning only by the setting up of such a goal and of corresponding values. The knowledge of truth as such is wonderful, but it is so little capable of acting as a guide that it cannot prove even the justification and the value of the aspiration toward that very knowledge of truth. Here we face, therefore, the limits of the purely rational conception of our existence.

But it must not be assumed that intelligent thinking can play no part in the formation of the goal and of ethical judgements. When someone realizes that for the achievement of an end certain means would be useful, the means itself becomes thereby an end. Intelligence makes clear to us the interrelation of means and ends. But mere thinking cannot give us a sense of the ultimate and fundamental ends. To make clear these fundamental ends and valuations, and to set them fast in the emotional life of the individual, seems to me precisely the most important function which religion has to perform in the social life of man. And if one asks whence derives the authority of such fundamental ends, since they cannot be stated and justified merely by reason, one can only answer: they exist in a healthy society as powerful traditions, which act upon the conduct and aspirations and judgments of the individuals; they are there, that is, as something living, without its being necessary to find justification for their existence. They come into being not through demonstration but through revelation, through the medium of powerful personalities. One must not attempt to justify them, but rather to sense their nature simply and clearly.

The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. It is a very high goal which, with our weak powers, we can reach only very inadequately, but which gives a sure foundation to our aspirations and valuations. If one were to take that goal out of its religious form and look merely at its purely human side, one might state it perhaps thus: free and responsible development of the individual, so that he may place his powers freely and gladly in the service of all mankind.

There is no room in this for the divinization of a nation, of a class, let alone of an individual. Are we not all children of one father, as it is said in religious language? Indeed, even the divinization of humanity, as an abstract totality, would be not in the spirit of that ideal. It is only to the individual that a soul is given. And the high destiny of the individual is to serve rather than to rule, or to impose himself in any other way.

If one looks at the substance rather than at the form, then one can take these words as expressing also the fundamental democratic position. The true democrat can worship his nation as little as can the man who is religious, in our sense of the term.

What, then, in all this, is the function of education and the school? They should help the young person to grow up such a spirit that these fundamental principles should be to him as the air which he breathes. Teaching alone cannot do that.

If one holds these high principles clearly before one's eyes, and compares them with the life and spirit of our times, then it appears glaringly that civilized mankind finds itself at present in grave danger. In the totalitarian states it is the rulers themselves who strive actually to destroy that spirit of humanity. In less threatened parts it is nationalism and intolerance, as well as the oppression of the individuals by economic means, which threaten to choke these most precious traditions.

A realization of how great is the danger is spreading, however, among thinking people, and there is much search for means with which to meet the danger - means in the field of national and international politics, of legislation, or organization in general. Such efforts are, no doubt, greatly needed. Yet the ancients knew something which we seem to have

forgotten. All means prove but a blunt instrument, if they have not behind them a living spirit. But if the longing for the achievement of the goal is powerfully alive within us, then shall we not lack the strength to find the means for reaching the goal and for translating it into deeds.




II.



It would not be difficult to come to an agreement as to what we understand by science. Science is the century old endeavour to bring together by means of systematic thought the perceptible phenomena of this world into a through going an association as possible. To put if boldly, it is the attempt at the posterior reconstruction of existence by the process of conceptualization. But when asking myself what religion is I cannot think of the answer so easily. And even after finding an answer which may satisfy me at this particular moment, I still remain convinced that I can never under any circumstances bring together, even to a slight extent, the thoughts of all those who have given this question serious consideration.

At first, then, instead of asking what religion is I should prefer to ask what characterizes the aspirations of a person who gives me the impression of being religious: a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of' his selfish desires and 'is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings, and aspirations, to which he clings because of their superpersonal value. It seems to me that what is important is the force of this superpersonal content and the depth of the conviction concerning its overpowering meaningfulness, regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly, a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance and loftiness of those superpersonal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation. They exist with the same necessity and matter-of-factness as he himself. In this sense religion is the age-old endeavor of mankind, to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals and constantly to strengthen and extend their effect. If one conceives of religion and science according to these definitions then a conflict between them appears impossible. For science can only ascertain what is but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary. Religion, on the other hand, deals only with evaluations of human thought and action: it cannot justifiably speak of facts and relationships between facts. According to this interpretation the well-known conflicts between religion and science in the past must be ascribed to a misapprehension of the situation which has been described.

For example, a conflict arises when a religious community insists on the absolute truthfulness of all statements recorded in the Bible. This means an intervention on the part of religion into the sphere of science; this is where the struggle of the Church against the doctrines of Galileo and Darwin belongs. On the other hand, representatives of science have often made an attempt to arrive at fundamental judgments with respect to values and ends on the basis of scientific method, and in this way have set themselves in opposition to religion. These conflicts have all sprung from fatal errors.

Now, even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, nevertheless there exist between the two strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies. Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up. But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

Though I have asserted above that in truth a legitimate conflict between religion and science cannot exist, I must nevertheless qualify this assertion once again on an essential point, with reference to the actual content of historical religions. This qualification has to do with the concept of God. During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution human fantasy created gods in man's own image, who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world. Man sought to alter the disposition of these gods in his own favor by means of magic and prayer. The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old concept of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes.

Nobody, certainly, will deny that the idea of the existence of an omnipotent, just, and omnibeneficent personal God is able to accord man solace, help, and guidance; also, by virtue of its simplicity it is accessible to the most undeveloped mind. But, on the other hand, there are decisive weaknesses attached to this idea in itself, which have been painfully felt since the beginning of history. That is, if this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?

The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God. It is the aim of science to establish general rules which determine the reciprocal connection of objects and events in time and space. For these rules, or laws of nature, absolutely general validity is required - not proven. It is mainly a program, and faith in the possibility of its accomplishment in principle is only founded on partial successes. But hardly anyone could be found who would deny these partial successes and ascribe them to human self-deception. The fact that on the basis of such laws we are able to predict the temporal behavior of phenomena in certain domains with great precision and certainty is deeply embedded in the consciousness of the modern man, even though he may have grasped very little of the contents of those laws. He need only consider that planetary courses within the solar system may be calculated in advance with great exactitude on the basis of a limited number of simple laws. In a similar way, though not with the same precision, it is possible to calculate in advance the mode of operation of an electric motor, a transmission system, or of a wireless apparatus, even when dealing with a novel development.

To be sure, when the number of factors coming into play in a phenomenological complex is too large, scientific method in most cases fails us. One need only think of the weather, in which case prediction even for a few days ahead is impossible. Nevertheless no one doubts that we are confronted with a causal connection whose causal components are in the main known to us. Occurrences in this domain are beyond the reach of exact prediction because of the variety of factors in operation, not because of any lack of order in nature.

We have penetrated far less deeply into the regularities obtaining within the realm of living things, but deeply enough nevertheless to sense at least the rule of fixed necessity. One need only think of the systematic order in heredity, and in the effect of poisons, as for instance alcohol, on the behavior of organic beings. What is still lacking here is a grasp of connections of profound generality, but not a knowledge of order in itself.

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.

But I am persuaded that such behavior on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task. After religious teachers accomplish the refining process indicated they will surely recognize with joy that true religion has been ennobled and made more profound by scientific knowledge.

If it is one of the goals of religion to liberate mankind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, scientific reasoning can aid religion in yet another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections discovered to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusions. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understanding he achieves a far-reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious, in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life.

The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. In this sense I believe that the priest must become a teacher if he wishes to do justice to his lofty educational mission.

- Albert Einstein

From, "Ideas and Opinions"

This has perfectly elucidated for me, my own views on this subject. I consider myself to be rational and reasonable, yet I also posses what Einstein calls, "Religious Feeling". That is the perfect term for it. I choose not to call it God, but there are certainly forces larger than we can comprehend at work. Evakian and I have discussed this at a time, but I shall save those opinions for a later post.

DarkFantasy96
03-30-2007, 09:27 PM
TLDR, TLDR!!! HAHAHAH

I have a horrible sinus headache right now and I have taken every painkiller I can get my hands on.

Vilepagan
03-30-2007, 09:49 PM
Science Without Religion is lame.

The following is very long, but also fascinating. I highly suggest taking the time to read it.



- Albert Einstein

From, "Ideas and Opinions"

This has perfectly elucidated for me, my own views on this subject. I consider myself to be rational and reasonable, yet I also posses what Einstein calls, "Religious Feeling". That is the perfect term for it. I choose not to call it God, but there are certainly forces larger than we can comprehend at work. Evakian and I have discussed this at a time, but I shall save those opinions for a later post.

That's a great book Homer. I'll bet he would have a pretty cool guy to have a chat with.

Freethinker
03-31-2007, 01:08 AM
"I believe that the priest must become a teacher ....."_______Einstein

That would require that religion be turned on its head.

I doubt it will happen.

Evakian
03-31-2007, 06:18 AM
Religion Without Science Is Blind
Kind of like Stevie Wonder without a piano...wait, he's blind anyway.

batgirl
04-08-2007, 10:42 PM
Science without Religon is also blind.

Oldtimer
04-09-2007, 01:19 AM
Einstein refers to planetary orbits, electric motors and other items that behave according to certain physical laws. However, religion does not deal with physical laws, it deals with the human mind, a totally different medium.
As yet science has been unable to determine what makes each of us an individual. We can read how the brain works, chemical reactions here, electrical impulses there, but no-one can tell us what controls these functions. I refuse to believe that I am nothing more than a random generation of such impulses.

Phyrex
04-09-2007, 01:46 AM
Science without Religon is also blind.

Switch that.

Religion is faith based, science is not.

Blob
04-09-2007, 06:44 PM
"Religious Feeling". That is the perfect term for it. I choose not to call it God, but there are certainly forces larger than we can comprehend at work.Isn't that kind of the opposite of religion? It seems to me religion never hesitates to name and describe the unknown and incomprehensible - and then it declares itself 100% Correct and True.

There is never any mystery or wonder left with religion - only closed answers.

Thislin
04-09-2007, 09:02 PM
Science without Religon is also blind.
I think religon should be consistent with science, at least to the point that religions that are inconsistent with it need close scrutiny.

There is the story of when, as a young man, the present Dalai Lama was shown how the moon shines by the reflected light of the sun--something contrary to what he had always been taught as a Tibetan Buddhist.

He at once changed his opinion and stated that when a traditional religious teaching contradicts scientific finding, the teaching should be altered. This follows a famous sutra where in answer to questions regarding the nature of the the things in the world, the Buddha's response was basically, "go to the experts."

Napsterbater
04-09-2007, 09:09 PM
Science without Religon is also blind.
Ketchup without burgers is just as great as burgers without ketchup.

Darth Be'lal
04-09-2007, 09:19 PM
Switch that.

Religion is faith based, science is not.

I'm not sure I can entirely agree with that particular point. People have faith in science, quite a bit of it. To solve our problems, cure our diseases, explain things around us and open up new and interesting questions and mysteries. If people in centuries past would look to prayer and a Supreme to help them with their problems, people nowadys look to science to help them. Granted that the methods science uses to explain the world around us are done in a way that can be repeated and verified by others, it still doesn't stop people from having faith that science can solve all our problems and explain everything. It's a different sort of faith, and I know I'm not good at explaining it, but it's no less strong than religious faith, dammit.

Phyrex
04-10-2007, 01:17 AM
I'm not sure I can entirely agree with that particular point. People have faith in science, quite a bit of it. To solve our problems, cure our diseases, explain things around us and open up new and interesting questions and mysteries. If people in centuries past would look to prayer and a Supreme to help them with their problems, people nowadys look to science to help them. Granted that the methods science uses to explain the world around us are done in a way that can be repeated and verified by others, it still doesn't stop people from having faith that science can solve all our problems and explain everything. It's a different sort of faith, and I know I'm not good at explaining it, but it's no less strong than religious faith, dammit.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. But when I open up a book about science I know im looking at things that have been proven fact, I dont get that when I look in a Bible. Therefore Im not required to have faith in science, it just is because it is proven to be so. Religion requires all the faith that you can muster becuse it is not proven.

However I do believe that science can solve most if not all of our problems as humans. We are smart enough to make happen just about anythig we would ever need. We do right now have the power as the human race to end world hunger, provide everyone with a home, not kill eachother, clean the enviroment, and all of that, but I dont think I have to tell you what the main reason is for us not being able to pursue those things wholeheartedly do I?

smartmouthwoman
04-10-2007, 07:32 AM
We also have the power as the human race to end the human race. The belief in a higher power (i.e., that we are something more... like a SOUL inhabiting an earthly body) is what keeps that from happening and the main difference between us and cells on a petri dish.

I feel sorry for those of you who don't believe you have a SOUL. You're obviously very unhappy and unsettled beings who will never know inner peace.

Just my $.02.

SMW

Phyrex
04-10-2007, 08:03 AM
We also have the power as the human race to end the human race. The belief in a higher power (i.e., that we are something more... like a SOUL inhabiting an earthly body) is what keeps that from happening and the main difference between us and cells on a petri dish.

I feel sorry for those of you who don't believe you have a SOUL. You're obviously very unhappy and unsettled beings who will never know inner peace.

Just my $.02.

SMW

We do have the power to end the human race, we've come close many times. But there is so much strife in this world, most of which is in the name of religion, (in the past, and now) that it seems to me religion is the great inhibitor of the human race, rather than the saviour of it.

Also, having a soul does not automatically denote that there is a higher power. I think that we as humans are special in our intelligence, or at least our supposed intelligence. I do believe however that we are not special on a galactic scale. There are, almost undoubtedly, in my mind other intelligent life forms in this universe. I wonder if they believe in the same gods we do? I doubt it, if they are smart they dont worship any god at all, unless of course they have proven that one exists. In which case I would not be surprised because with the universe being as old as it is they may have been able to advance to such a stage. Science is the only hope for religion to be proven, all the religious fanatics (not you SMW) need to embrace it. Nothing short of god himself making himself known will prove beyond a reasonable doubt his existance. And if you offer me the Bible or Koran as proof of gods existance, then your wrong. It proves nothing.

Ive said it before and Ill say it again, im not an atheist. I do think that there is something behind the universe, I just dont know what. I find it much more productive however to argue from both sides of the plate in order to find answers, even if it goes against what I actually believe. It allows one to see both sides, and to be ultimately objective. Its something Ive found most cannot do.

smartmouthwoman
04-10-2007, 08:46 AM
I understand your point, P. It's just that I believe some things are UNKNOWABLE and proof that God exists is one of those.

I've asked this question before, but don't remember anyone actually attempting to answer it. What's your view?

IF THE BIBLE IS A FARCE, HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT IT WAS WRITTEN AND HAS EXISTED FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS?

Would you attribute the writing of it to Mass Hysteria? A small band of lunatics bent on pulling one over on the world? Easy access to heavy-duty drugs? How about the building of the pyramids -- Egyptian college prank? Cave drawings depicting angel-like characters floating in space? Too much under-cooked meat?

See, I have a hard time deciding which UNKNOWABLE things to believe in and which not to.

Like you said, short of God himself making himself known, there will always be reasonable doubt of his existance. It's called FAITH.

:)
SMW

BorgHunter
04-10-2007, 09:19 AM
IF THE BIBLE IS A FARCE, HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT IT WAS WRITTEN AND HAS EXISTED FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS?

Would you attribute the writing of it to Mass Hysteria? A small band of lunatics bent on pulling one over on the world? Easy access to heavy-duty drugs?
The Śruti and Smriti are quite old as well, SMW. If memory serves, at least as old as the Old Testament, if not older. Does that make Hinduism correct as well? The Pali Canon is as old as the New Testament. Does that make Buddhism correct? The Daozang is also as old as the New Testament. Does that make Taoism correct?

It's difficult to say with any certainty what the motivation was behind writing the Bible, as there were many writers, not just one. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that such a book, when zealously promoted as true by its followers, could become enduring and popular regardless of the veracity of the texts. Take as evidence for that the sheer number of religions that exist in the world today, and the similarly enduring quality their holy books have. And before books, all religious knowledge was passed through word of mouth.

Now. You ask why the Bible was written. Now, suspend your judgment for a minute here and bear with me. If you were the elder in some tribe of irreligious people, and they were getting a bit unruly...theft, all sorts of poor behavior...how would you motivate them to be good, to not steal and so forth? You pretty much have two ways. The first is to institute some kind of police force, and laws. But that could easily break down into chaos if the people don't care to accede to the authority of the police. But inventing a religion, answering people's questions about death and so forth while simultaneously introducing a means to control their behavior, to an extent...that would be useful, wouldn't it?

I'm not asking you to believe that that's what happened with Christianity, SMW. I don't think anyone is. Acknowledgment that this is a reasonable and logical course of events, and is a plausible way to think, is good enough for me. I don't pretend that this is the ONLY WAY things could have happened, because I wasn't around when any religions were invented. But I think it's a reasonable explanation. Don't you?

smartmouthwoman
04-10-2007, 09:32 AM
Agreed, Borg.... your explanation is as reasonable as anything else I've heard. Guess I just have a hard time believing the whole 'religion' idea (and I'm talking ALL religions) was dreamed up without any sort of 'devine' intervention. Especially when you consider the similarities and not the differences.

:)
SMW

Blob
04-10-2007, 10:41 AM
You're obviously very unhappy and unsettled beings who will never know inner peace.Not at all. I find a daily diet of crack, whores and self-mutilation suppresses the void within.

smartmouthwoman
04-10-2007, 10:45 AM
Good one, Blob... now pass the collection plate. (Glad I didn't say you atheists have no sense of humor.)

Blob
04-10-2007, 10:59 AM
:d

/edit: well that is supposed to be a grinning emoticon but I'm just seeing colon d (?)