By Harold Pinter

3-26-7

http://www.rense.com/general75/whg.htm

"Earlier this year I had a major operation for cancer. The operation and its after-effects were something of a nightmare. I felt I was a man unable to swim bobbing about under water in a deep dark endless ocean. But I did not drown and I am very glad to be alive.

However, I found that to emerge from a personal nightmare was to enter an infinitely more pervasive public nightmare - the nightmare of American hysteria, ignorance, arrogance, stupidity and belligerence; the most powerful nation the world has ever known effectively waging war against the rest of the world. "If you are not with us you are against us" President Bush has said. He has also said "We will not allow the world's worst weapons to remain in the hands of the world's worst leaders". Quite right. Look in the mirror chum. That's you.

The US is at this moment developing advanced systems of "weapons of mass destruction" and it prepared to use them where it sees fit. It has more of them than the rest of the world put together. It has walked away from international agreements on biological and chemical weapons, refusing to allow inspection of its own factories. The hypocrisy behind its public declarations and its own actions is almost a joke.

The United States believes that the three thousand deaths in New York are the only deaths that count, the only deaths that matter. They are American deaths. Other deaths are unreal, abstract, of no consequence.

The three thousand deaths in Afghanistan are never referred to.

The hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children dead through US and British sanctions which have deprived them of essential medicines are never referred to.

The effect of depleted uranium, used by America in the Gulf War, is never referred to. Radiation levels in Iraq are appallingly high. Babies are born with no brain, no eyes, no genitals. Where they do have ears, mouths or rectums, all that issues from these orifices is blood.

The two hundred thousand deaths in East Timor in 1975 brought about by the Indonesian government but inspired and supported by the United States are never referred to.

The half a million deaths in Guatemala, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Uruguay, Argentina and Haiti, in actions supported and subsidised by the United States are never referred to.

The millions of deaths in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are no longer referred to.

The desperate plight of the Palestinian people, the central factor in world unrest, is hardly referred to.

But what a misjudgement of the present and what a misreading of history this is.

People do not forget. They do not forget the death of their fellows, they do not forget torture and mutilation, they do not forget injustice, they do not forget oppression, they do not forget the terrorism of mighty powers. They not only don't forget. They strike back.

The atrocity in New York was predictable and inevitable. It was an act of retaliation against constant and systematic manifestations of state terrorism on the part of the United States over many years, in all parts of the world.

In Britain the public is now being warned to be "vigilant" in preparation for potential terrorist acts. The language is in itself preposterous.

How will - or can - public vigilance be embodied? Wearing a scarf over your mouth to keep out poison gas? However, terrorist attacks are quite likely, the inevitable result of our Prime Minister's contemptible and shameful subservience to the United States. Apparently, a terrorist poison gas attack on the London Underground system was recently prevented. But such an act may indeed take place. Thousands of school children travel on the London Underground every day. If there is a poison gas attack from which they die, the responsibility will rest entirely on the shoulders of our Prime Minister. Needless to say, the Prime Minister does not travel on the underground himself.

The planned war against Iraq is in fact a plan for premeditated murder of thousands of civilians in order, apparently, to rescue them from their dictator.

The United States and Britain are pursuing a course which can lead only to an escalation of violence throughout the world and finally to catastrophe.

It is obvious, however, that the United States is bursting at the seams to attack Iraq. I believe that it will do this - not just to take control of Iraqi oil - but because the US administration is now a bloodthirsty wild animal. Bombs are its only vocabulary. Many Americans, we know, are horrified by the posture of their government but seem to be helpless.

Unless Europe finds the solidarity, intelligence, courage and will to challenge and resist US power Europe itself will deserve Alexander Herzen's definition (as quoted in the Guardian newspaper in London recently) "We are not the doctors. We are the disease".

Harold Pinter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

They hang the man and flog the woman
That steal the goose from off the common,
But let the greater villain loose
That steals the common from the goose.


"America is a quarter of a billion people totally misinformed and disinformed by their government. This is tragic but our media is -- I wouldn't even say corrupt -- it's just beyond telling us anything that the government doesn't want us to know." _______Gore Vidal

Freethinker.

The great American apologist.
(Please forgive us, oh great third-world recipients of the American dollar, on behalf of her most shameful and yet shamelessly hand-wringing anti-American and yet undeniable American, non-southern southerner.)

You do us all proud, sir.
You conflicted and yet shamelessly non-apologetic seditionist.
You are one in a hundred.
:thumbs:

So what were saying here is that 9/11 is justified, and that we should have done nothing because we had it comming. Yeah right.

The mere fact that you can call Bush and Blair evil dictators and bad leaders without being executed is a testament to the freedom which you tend to spit on.

Why dont you go live with the Jihadists for a while Freethinker, im sure that they would love someone like you on their side. Go fight for what you truly believe in.

i think i would have fallen asleep reading that if the hyperbole and self-hate hadn't kept me chuckling.

So what were saying here is that 9/11 is justified, and that we should have done nothing because we had it comming. Yeah right.

Huh?!

I did not read where it said either of those things. I thought he said it was predictable and inevitable, and that it was an act of retaliation.

The mere fact that you can call Bush and Blair evil dictators and bad leaders without being executed ......

With B*sh, I understand your point. I see it as a meaningless side issue, but I get your drift.

But Blair.......?!?!?!

Please give me an example of a nation where people are executed for calling leaders of other nations --even if those nations are allies-- *evil dictators* or *bad leaders*.

Huh?!

I did not read where it said either of those things. I thought he said it was predictable and inevitable, and that it was an act of retaliation.

It said those things yes, the rest is explicitly implied. He is trying to justify 9/11 and, by saying we had it comming to us. And by the tone of this, its obvious that we shouldnt have retaliated, because it would cause more problems for the world.


With B*sh, I understand your point. I see it as a meaningless side issue, but I get your drift.

But Blair.......?!?!?!

Please give me an example of a nation where people are executed for calling leaders of other nations --even if those nations are allies-- *evil dictators* or *bad leaders*.

Im talking about people in the US calling Bush whatever they want, and people in the UK calling Blair whatever they want. Just pointing out the freedom of speech which you exercise. How is that a meaningless side issue?

Originally Posted by Phyrex
So what were saying here is that 9/11 is justified, and that we should have done nothing because we had it comming. Yeah right.

Originally Posted by Freethinker
I did not read where it said either of those things.

It said those things yes,

I cannot find those things stated in the article. I'd like to see you quote where he said it.

And by the tone of this, its obvious that we shouldnt have retaliated, because it would cause more problems for the world.

Well, our "retaliation" against Iraq for 9-11 certainly has caused more problems for the world.




Im talking about people in the US calling Bush whatever they want, and people in the UK calling Blair whatever they want. Just pointing out the freedom of speech which you exercise. How is that a meaningless side issue?

There are simply too many people saying it for them to do anything if they wanted.
What are they going to do, haul away 200,000 Million people?
I don't think so.

They simply allow people to scream into the void, which makes people like yourself believe we still have free speech and thus keeps them docile.

Try going and saying those things somewhere the President is appearing, then you get herded into a cage well away from Bush's ears called a "free speech zone". There is your "Free speech", or whats left of it anyway.

I cannot find those things stated in the article. I'd like to see you quote where he said it.

Do you not know what explicitly implied means?


and way to take my quote of "It said those things yes," totally out of context in post #7.

You said:
I did not read where it said either of those things. I thought he said it was predictable and inevitable, and that it was an act of retaliation.

My response:
It said those things yes, the rest is explicitly implied. He is trying to justify 9/11 and, by saying we had it comming to us. And by the tone of this, its obvious that we shouldnt have retaliated, because it would cause more problems for the world.

Your no better than Fox its seems hmmm?

Hmmm,its fair to say that alQaeda were gonna attack the US at some stage,tho probably not in the way it turns out.
The whole instability in the middle east all boils down to Israel and the Palestinian question.
The reason the US was attacked and is seen as the big bad wolf is its blind support for Israel at the expense of its neighbours.

Hmmm,its fair to say that alQaeda were gonna attack the US at some stage,tho probably not in the way it turns out.
The whole instability in the middle east all boils down to Israel and the Palestinian question.
The reason the US was attacked and is seen as the big bad wolf is its blind support for Israel at the expense of its neighbours.

You mean to say that the fact that the ME is the second-worst perfoming region in the world in terms of economic growth over the last 60 years is Israel's fault? That despite sitting on the world's most valuable commodity, per capita growth in the ME is among the lowest in the world, only surpassed by sub-saharan Africa and that's Israel's fault. That SE Asia and the ME were on comparable terms economically following WWII and that the ME's inability to keep up with SE Asia is Israels fault. That all the violence in the ME (Iraq/Iran war, Iraq invades Kuwait, Syria invades Lebanon, Jordan expels the Palestinians, Algeria is in engaged in a civil war against muslim fundamentalists.....) is due to israel. That the lack of economic opportunity, the lack of political freedom and transparency is Israel's fault.

Next you'll be telling us Israel is responsible for global warming.

Israel could disappear from the face of the earth tomorrow and the ME would still be in the same mess 10 years from now. The whole ME boils down to Israel and Palestinians, what a crock of shit.

Why do you think all those terrable things have gone on in the ME.Its because of the instability caused by war between Israel and whoever,and just as importantly,the US has allowed itself to be demonised by Islamic Fundamentalists,which now leaves most people in the region anti American,anti western,a recruiting ground for alQaeda,and a threat to world peace,is your right partly Israels fault.

Why do you think all those terrable things have gone on in the ME.Its because of the instability caused by war between Israel and whoever,and just as importantly,the US has allowed itself to be demonised by Islamic Fundamentalists,which now leaves most people in the region anti American,anti western,a recruiting ground for alQaeda,and a threat to world peace,is your right partly Israels fault.

Iraq invaded iran because the israelis and palestinians couldn't agree? Iraq invaded Kuwait because the israelis and palestinians couldn't agree? Algeria is engaged in a civil war with fundamentalists because the israelis and palestinians couldn't agree? The inability of the israelis and palestinians to agree is the reason rulers in the ME have appropriated all the oil revenues for themselves? Instability in israel is the reason we haven't seen any major foreign investment outside the oil industry in the ME?

You can't be that stupid can you?

Iraq invaded Iran because of Israel-NO. You can bet your ass that Khomeni came to power on an anti American anti Israeli ticket.
Iraq invaded Kuwait because of Israel-NO.
Algeria is engaged in a civil war with Fundamentalists because of Israel-NO. But once again the main arguement used by Muslim extremeists is the Israeli/American coalition.
Your right,I couldnt be that stupid.

So if the Muslim fundamentalists or khomeini or hussein or faud.... said the israelis caused global warming you'd beleive that too?

If you beleive the notion that the lack of political freedom in these countries, that the lack of economic opportunity in these countries, the wholesale aggrandizement of the ruling class to the detriment of all other classes, the absence of a effective, balanced judiciary is caused by the Palestinian-Israeli conflict then yes, you are that stupid.

Apparently so, Waldo.

It boggles the mind.

Dont put words in my mouth mac,I never mentioned Global Warming.
Now as for your other arguments,
'political freedom',theres not a democratic muslim country anywhere as far as I know,you will find that a lot of these countrys justify maintaining large militarys 'because Israel does'.
'Lack of economic opertunity',most of these countrys that dont sit upon the black stuff will always be poor nomatter what.
'wholesale aggrandizement' part of the political freedom thing,another reason why trying to democracise the middle east is a waste of time,but hey,support the ones who supply you with oil and buy your weapons systems,we can overlook that little thing,good example of why working class and poor muslims hate America,and its allies,one of which is Israel.

Dont put words in my mouth mac,I never mentioned Global Warming.
Now as for your other arguments,
'political freedom',theres not a democratic muslim country anywhere as far as I know,you will find that a lot of these countrys justify maintaining large militarys 'because Israel does'.
'Lack of economic opertunity',most of these countrys that dont sit upon the black stuff will always be poor nomatter what.
'wholesale aggrandizement' part of the political freedom thing,another reason why trying to democracise the middle east is a waste of time,but hey,support the ones who supply you with oil and buy your weapons systems,we can overlook that little thing,good example of why working class and poor muslims hate America,and its allies,one of which is Israel.

All these things i mention are the basic ingredients to get people to come invest in your country. If you can't get people to invest in your country than your standard of living and tendency toward violence moves geometrically. it has nothing to do with sitting on any oil. Japan doesn't sit on any oil, nor does South Korea, or China or Israel for that matter yet these countries have a standard of living that surpasses anything in the ME.

Why are you so happy to abandon 1/6th of the world's population to a life of misery and brutishness? You're feign great concern over all the civilians killed in the war yet the alternative you offer is no better and conceivably worse, because not only do you condemn this generation to misery you condemn the future generations to the same misery.

All this other bs about selling arms to such and such, supporting so and so is just so much distraction (that and Israel) the left trots out when cornered about the real issue which is raising the standard of living to a level where mere existence is no longer an issue.

Listen Waldo,Muslim countrys have always been controlled by some ruthless dictator or Government.Should it be the Persians,the French,British,you name it,since the end of WW2 when these countrys broke free of these occupiers once and for all,and replaced them with what,more dictators and tyrants,if certai sections of the region didnt have oil,most westerners wouldnt give a shit about what happens there,that is a sad fact,as for an alternative,Im not sure what you mean,if its regards Iraq,Ive already stated that the US has no option but to stay there at the present and forseeable future.

Listen Waldo,Muslim countrys have always been controlled by some ruthless dictator or Government.Should it be the Persians,the French,British,you name it,since the end of WW2 when these countrys broke free of these occupiers once and for all,and replaced them with what,more dictators and tyrants,if certai sections of the region didnt have oil,most westerners wouldnt give a shit about what happens there,that is a sad fact,as for an alternative,Im not sure what you mean,if its regards Iraq,Ive already stated that the US has no option but to stay there at the present and forseeable future.


So the ME has been ruled by tyrants and dictators forever. These rulers have taken whatever wealth the country(s) have been able to generate. Suppressed the people forever. And all the misery in the ME is caused by Israel.:rolleyes:

You've lost the plot lad.

Dont put words in my mouth mac,I never mentioned Global Warming.
You might as well have, and that's the point.
Now as for your other arguments,
'political freedom',theres not a democratic muslim country anywhere as far as I know
Ding-ding-ding...give the man a prize - you're absolutely right, an the best part is - the people who are under the thumb of their respective dictators just LOVE living in squalor. How silly of us to think they'd (deep down, that is) want better. Maybe they ARE just "different", and we should respect their undeniable penchant for shitting (quite literally) on any newspaper article that doesn't specifically involve Muslim indoctrination.
you will find that a lot of these countrys justify maintaining large militarys 'because Israel does'.
Riiiiight, Paul - these people aren't prone to violence at all. Before Israel, the ME was a beautiful place chock full of laughing children, flowery meadows, and golden palaces.
'Lack of economic opertunity',most of these countrys that dont sit upon the black stuff will always be poor nomatter what.
Too bad these people (according to you guys, that is) prefer it that way. Maybe in another 2000 years, they'll choose democracy, but if I were a liberal, I doubt I'd give them that much credit.
.....good example of why working class and poor muslims hate America,and its allies,one of which is Israel.
Psst - there is no working class in the Middle East, Paul.

Sitting on a huge pile of natural resources is meaningless if it's the kind of resource that your country doesn't possess the capability to exploit commercially. That actually makes it much harder for a state to claw it's way out of third-world status.

No,Israel has a right to exist,just like any other country,the fact that they treat the Pals like shit,walk in and out of Lebanon if and when it suits,all plays into the hands of Muslim extremeists,who blame Israel and the US for all things evil

''Ive lost the plot''
Hmm.
Israel as we all know is armed to the teeth,even has nukes,why,to defend itself,only if the best means of defence is attack.It has constantly refused to accomadate the Palestinians,this is the one main argument Islamic extremeists use to brainwash young men into becoming suicide bombs,for going to Iraq and Afghanistan to fight America,for learning to fly jet liners.
You can trace this all back to Israel/Paelstinian conflict,and who props up Israel,the United States.

''Ive lost the plot''
Hmm.
Israel as we all know is armed to the teeth,even has nukes,why,to defend itself,only if the best means of defence is attack.It has constantly refused to accomadate the Palestinians,this is the one main argument Islamic extremeists use to brainwash young men into becoming suicide bombs,for going to Iraq and Afghanistan to fight America,for learning to fly jet liners.
You can trace this all back to Israel/Paelstinian conflict,and who props up Israel,the United States.

Why do you think israel is the issue and not the ones i've mentioned?

How will disappearing israel improve the lot of the arabs one iota? How will disappearing israel stop the endemic violence among arabs and between arabs(muslims kill far more muslims than jews or christians combined)?

Your making excuses.

How am I making excuses,Israel has the right to exist just as much as any other nation.
What Im saying is that its stubborn and agressive nature is the cause of many many problems in the region.

And you're failing to answer his question.

Im being asked,how disappearing Israel would help things,I said Israel has as much right to exist as anyone else.
What did you have for lunch

Israel....has constantly refused to accomadate the Palestinians, this is the one main argument Islamic extremeists use to brainwash young men into becoming suicide bombs,for going to Iraq and Afghanistan to fight America,for learning to fly jet liners. You can trace this all back to Israel/Palestinian conflict,and who props up Israel,the United States.

Exactly.

Excellent point, paul.

(Not that the two you're trying to explain it to have the slightest chance of grasping the political realities inherant in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.)

(Not that the two you're trying to explain it to have the slightest chance of grasping the political realities inherant in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.)

and you wonder why people think you are an ass...

look at mr. expert over here.. do you have a history degree? did you write your thesis paper on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? talk about holding yourself to a higher standard than all others, tooting your own horn, and holding your precious bias beliefs higher than anyone else's... that fact that you work so hard to convey your message combined with how perverse it is = frightening.

look at mr. expert over here.. do you have a history degree?

Wha......!?!?!?

I said that paul made an excellent point about the topic under discussion, and that prompts you to ask if I have a history degree.......?

(BTW.....I mean this in a respectful and helpful way. I do not make a habit of correcting other's grammatical or spelling errors. It's usually petty and pointless. But there is one mistake that I see many people making on here, and it is driving me straight up the wall. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding how anyone whose first language is English cannot readily perceive just how wrong it sounds. It has to do with the word *bias*. The word bias is a noun; when using an adjective to describe someone the word is not bias, but biased. When using a phrase such as --"you are bias"-- or --""you have a bias view of the world""-- the correct usage is not "bias", but b_i_a_s_e_d.........biased.)

Im being asked,how disappearing Israel would help things,I said Israel has as much right to exist as anyone else.
What did you have for lunch

This is very simple. Israel is not the problem with the ME. It's merely the whipping boy for all the problems that do exist.

Israel did not cause the ME to regress economically. Israel has not caused other states to repress their minorities. Israel has not caused tyrants to be raised as leaders in other countries. Israel has not prevented the rise of representative, or even responsive gov'ts in the ME. Israel did not cause the rise of islamists or extremists (the Muslim brotherhood predates the creation of israel). israel has not caused ....(insert whatever you like).

Resolving the conflict between israel and palestinians will not solve a single one of those problems. Each and every one of those problems are infinitely more severe for the average arab than the problems between israel and the palestinians. Israel could disappear from the face of the earth tomorrow and all those problems would still be there. And they'd still be there 10 years from now. And the ME would still be the most violent region in the world and the most regressive in terms of economic opportunities.

Exactly.

Excellent point, paul.

(Not that the two you're trying to explain it to have the slightest chance of grasping the political realities inherant in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.)


I'm sure you'd love to explain why the palestinian/israeli conflict is more important than any of the other problems i've pointed to.

I'm sure you'd love to explain why the palestinian/israeli conflict is more important than any of the other problems i've pointed to.


Quite simply, everything that I have ever read about it, all the info I have ever come into contact with points to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute as being THE foundation, the very core of all of the disagreement and strife that has come to exist between the Jews and the Muslims.

Quite simply, everything that I have ever read about it, all the info I have ever come into contact with points to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute as being THE foundation, the very core of all of the disagreement and strife that has come to exist between the Jews and the Muslims.

That's a response that says nothing.

Please explain how the I/P conflict causes tyrants and dictators to run most of the ME countries. Explain how the I/P conflict causes these 'leaders' to confiscate most of the wealth for themselves and or their families or tribes. Explain how the I/P conflict has resulted in the ME having the second worst economic performance since WWII despite sitting on so much oil. Explain how the I/P conflict has made ME gov'ts completely unresponsive to the needs of their citizenry despite the vast sums collected from the sale of oil.

I cannot find those things stated in the article. I'd like to see you quote where he said it.

I just can't get past yer Bright Yellow,Squarish,Ferlin Husky
Hillbilly Bob Profile moniker.
It fits you to a tee.
Makes a fittin - BooB Tube - christmas sticker for all
the nutjobs,down at the local looney bin.

This is very simple. Israel is not the problem with the ME. It's merely the whipping boy for all the problems that do exist.

Israel did not cause the ME to regress economically. Israel has not caused other states to repress their minorities. Israel has not caused tyrants to be raised as leaders in other countries. Israel has not prevented the rise of representative, or even responsive gov'ts in the ME. Israel did not cause the rise of islamists or extremists (the Muslim brotherhood predates the creation of israel). israel has not caused ....(insert whatever you like).

Resolving the conflict between israel and palestinians will not solve a single one of those problems. Each and every one of those problems are infinitely more severe for the average arab than the problems between israel and the palestinians. Israel could disappear from the face of the earth tomorrow and all those problems would still be there. And they'd still be there 10 years from now. And the ME would still be the most violent region in the world and the most regressive in terms of economic opportunities.This is all very well and to an extent true,tho.
Israel and the United States support of Israel are 2 of the 3 main reasons Islamic extremeism exists,the third being oil rich familys who rule sections of the region with brute force,the vast majority of whom,are once again supported by the United States.
Israel is one of the most agressive,if not the most aggressive nation on earth,it treats its neighbours with contempt and the Palestinians like something youd scrape off your shoe.
As regards all these terrible problems in the ME,your right your average Arab has more on his plate than Palestine,they're not the ones the west needs to worry about.Israel preaches that it wants to live in peace,but only peace on its terms,the world dosent work like that.So as long as the US and Israel continue on they're present foreign policys,there wont be stability in the region.

Quite simply, everything that I have ever read about it, all the info I have ever come into contact with points to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute as being THE foundation, the very core of all of the disagreement and strife that has come to exist between the Jews and the Muslims.
Okay, but you're not listening. Of course the strife between "Jews and Muslims" has come to exist because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and at the risk of repeating myself here, you'd have to be a fucking retard not to see that, but Waldo's point goes far deeper, and both of you are obviously REFUSING to see it. Are you using this tactic deliberately, because, and I gotta say, it's the lamest one I've ever seen on Allforums? Seriously.

That's a response that says nothing.

Please explain how the I/P conflict causes tyrants and dictators to run most of the ME countries. Explain how the I/P conflict causes these 'leaders' to confiscate most of the wealth for themselves and or their families or tribes. Explain how the I/P conflict has resulted in the ME having the second worst economic performance since WWII despite sitting on so much oil. Explain how the I/P conflict has made ME gov'ts completely unresponsive to the needs of their citizenry despite the vast sums collected from the sale of oil.
Apparently no one wants to answer this incredibly simple question, Waldo.

Ooooh, oooh - I know...it's the Israelis! :rolleyes:

Save your breath,my point has to do with anti semitism and anti Americanism,there wont be stability in the region as long as Israel refuses to cut the Pals a fair deal.All thee other woes highlighted by waldo can never be resolved until that one is.

Wha......!?!?!?

I said that paul made an excellent point about the topic under discussion, and that prompts you to ask if I have a history degree.......?

just the little line you added at the end.. sounded egotistical and smug.. like you were on a higher shelf... so i wondered if you had any credentials to support your percieved attitude...

(BTW.....I mean this in a respectful and helpful way. I do not make a habit of correcting other's grammatical or spelling errors. It's usually petty and pointless. But there is one mistake that I see many people making on here, and it is driving me straight up the wall. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding how anyone whose first language is English cannot readily perceive just how wrong it sounds. It has to do with the word *bias*. The word bias is a noun; when using an adjective to describe someone the word is not bias, but biased. When using a phrase such as --"you are bias"-- or --""you have a bias view of the world""-- the correct usage is not "bias", but b_i_a_s_e_d.........biased.)

thanks, i'm no english major, even though my grandmother is... it's JOHN AND I not "me and john"... lol i've heard that one about 50 million times.

and thanks for being respectful FT. I'm sure you could have sarcastically been a dick about correcting word usage, but you weren't... starting off on a great foot today!

Save your breath,my point has to do with anti semitism and anti Americanism,there wont be stability in the region as long as Israel refuses to cut the Pals a fair deal.All thee other woes highlighted by waldo can never be resolved until that one is.
The two aren't mutually exclusive, Paul. I call bullshit. It's akin to blaming your parents for your fucked up decisions in life. Muslims are tyrants, pure and simple. They've been warring since the dawn of recorded history, and that, my friend, is a fact.

I would be the first to say that the Muslim World is fucked up,dont get me wrong.I would also say,Extreme Muslims are THE main threat to Western Democracy.
My point was and is,that Israeli aggression,with US support,is the KEY factor in recruitment for these religious nuts.

This is all very well and to an extent true,tho.
Israel and the United States support of Israel are 2 of the 3 main reasons Islamic extremeism exists,the third being oil rich familys who rule sections of the region with brute force,the vast majority of whom,are once again supported by the United States.
Israel is one of the most agressive,if not the most aggressive nation on earth,it treats its neighbours with contempt and the Palestinians like something youd scrape off your shoe.
As regards all these terrible problems in the ME,your right your average Arab has more on his plate than Palestine,they're not the ones the west needs to worry about.Israel preaches that it wants to live in peace,but only peace on its terms,the world dosent work like that.So as long as the US and Israel continue on they're present foreign policys,there wont be stability in the region.

In a court of law this would be deemed non-responsive. I ask you to explain how the issues are related and you revert to the same ole rhetoric. Explain how they are related for god's sake. Are we to assume that your inability to answer the question means you can't answer the question. That because you have no answers all you've got left is the same old tired rhetoric. That you don't really have an arguement just rhetoric.

Apparently no one wants to answer this incredibly simple question, Waldo.

Ooooh, oooh - I know...it's the Israelis! :rolleyes:

It's because they can't.

My question requires some thought beyond the rhetoric. It requires them to think for themselves rather than to repeat the talking points in the socialist bullshit they espouse that deal with the issue. All they can do is parrot 'It's Israel's fault, they're too aggressive.'

Thanks for the thinking lesson Waldo.
Now.
In response to post 35.Firstly,you gotta ask yourself how it is that these tyrants get away with being,well tyrants.
They're arguement would be,they build up they're Military,why,in response to Israeli Military buildup,(and more recently,US military build up in the region)(Israels only real allie).
Yes Id be the first to say the region is a sectarian minefield,thats not Israels fault,but the excuse used for the military is a double edged sword,and used for personal gain,which by the way is ignored or taken advantage of by Russia and the west to sell arms to.
As for the economic issue,the non oil producing countrys are,as you say,very poor,which suits they're leaders,but also suits Israel and its Allie.You dont see too much US Investment in this area.
As for ME Governments being unresponsive to they're citizens,as Praesuggested,that is the Arab way.

Thanks for the thinking lesson Waldo.
Now.
In response to post 35.Firstly,you gotta ask yourself how it is that these tyrants get away with being,well tyrants.
They're arguement would be,they build up they're Military,why,in response to Israeli Military buildup,(and more recently,US military build up in the region)(Israels only real allie).
Yes Id be the first to say the region is a sectarian minefield,thats not Israels fault,but the excuse used for the military is a double edged sword,and used for personal gain,which by the way is ignored or taken advantage of by Russia and the west to sell arms to.
As for the economic issue,the non oil producing countrys are,as you say,very poor,which suits they're leaders,but also suits Israel and its Allie.You dont see too much US Investment in this area.
As for ME Governments being unresponsive to they're citizens,as Praesuggested,that is the Arab way.

Paul, building up the military is what tyrants and dictators do. It's how they stay in power. You yourself have already said Muslim countrys have always been controlled by some ruthless dictator or Government. Both things cannot be true in the context of the I/P conflict. The notion that this situation is novel or a legitimate excuse is absolute crap. You've bought into their excuses hook, line, and sinker.

Your economic line of thinking is just as silly. Whether it suits the israelis or not is completely irrelevant. It's the arabs doing it to themselves! Israel is not forcing the arab leadership to keep the pie for themselves. They're doing it because that's why tyrants and dictaors do!

Everything being cited is the arabs doing it to themselves. The israelis have not control or influence over any of that.

Waldo,I hear what your saying.''Its the arabs doing it to themselves'',but they are doing what Israel is doing,arming themselves to the teeth,Israel uses its military to defend itself and intimidate its neighbours,Arab countrys counter this build up,with they're own,but they use they'res to keep themselves in power,keep in mind that most Muslims in the ME have 2 things in common,they're religion and they're hatred of Israel/USA,thats one of the reasons these fuckers get away with it.
You said in response that both things cant be true,thats right,but Israel/USA keep giving these tyrants excuses to arm themselves.
What you need is leadership from America in the region,not blind support for one side.

Waldo,I hear what your saying.''Its the arabs doing it to themselves'',

You should stop right here because everything that comes after is a bunch a crap. It's excuses for the arabs.


You said in response that both things cant be true,thats right,

Again, just stop right here. All that follows indicates that you're buying into their line of excuses for why the region is the most violent and among the most economically regressive (and socially regressive if you want to look at the way they treat women, minorities, and even slaves.

Israel,with the help of the United States,has built up its Military to a level thats unequaled anywhere in the world,for a country its size.
Even to the extent of arming itself with nuclear weapons,which would have been impossible without US expertise and money.Not once,ever,have I heard a complaint about this.The Israelis use this massive war machine to intimidate and surpress its neighbours,especially the Palestinians.
Yet all I read is how the Arabs do this and how the Arabs do that,all this support given to Israel by the US is seen by Arabs as a blatant one sided stance,and quite rightly so.
Now,how does anyone expect the Arabs to support the US in the region while this continues,it simply wont happen.
Prehaps someday,someone will be elected to the White House who will have the balls to face down Israeli interests,give an even playing field to Arabs and try to defeat the Fundamentalists who preach this onesidedness every day, tho I doubt it.

I just can't get past yer Bright Yellow,Squarish,Ferlin Husky
Hillbilly Bob Profile moniker.

Errm.....I hate to break it to you, but that's not Ferlin Husky in the avatar.

It is your hero......the Smirking Imbecile from Crawford Texas.

The Israelis use this massive war machine to intimidate and surpress its neighbours, especially the Palestinians........all this support given to Israel by the US is seen by Arabs as a blatant one sided stance, and quite rightly so.

Again, excellent point.

But they will refuse to see it.

Israeli aggression,with US support,is the KEY factor in recruitment for these religious nuts.

Yes, it is. That is the bottom line in this whole situation.

It cannot be expected that Israel can endlessly continue its campaign of harrassing, torturing and killing the Palestinian people at will without someone --in this case the Muslim community-- being enraged by it.

Yet all I read is how the Arabs do this and how the Arabs do that,all this support given to Israel by the US is seen by Arabs as a blatant one sided stance,and quite rightly so.
Yeah, because they're the ONLY nation in the ME with an industry (that doesn't involve a birthright) and democracy. Why do you think we support them? If the other nations there want our support, then they can jump on the bandwagon any time they want. It's that simple. Toe the line (for the benefit of EVERYONE involved), or deal with the consequences. The choice is theirs.

So what are you saying,serve the empire or be destroyed.
I think that would probably be unconstitutional,most definitely unAmerican.

Israel,with the help of the United States,has built up its Military to a level thats unequaled anywhere in the world,for a country its size.
Even to the extent of arming itself with nuclear weapons,which would have been impossible without US expertise and money.Not once,ever,have I heard a complaint about this.The Israelis use this massive war machine to intimidate and surpress its neighbours,especially the Palestinians.
Yet all I read is how the Arabs do this and how the Arabs do that,all this support given to Israel by the US is seen by Arabs as a blatant one sided stance,and quite rightly so.
Now,how does anyone expect the Arabs to support the US in the region while this continues,it simply wont happen.
Prehaps someday,someone will be elected to the White House who will have the balls to face down Israeli interests,give an even playing field to Arabs and try to defeat the Fundamentalists who preach this onesidedness every day, tho I doubt it.

And so we come full circle. Back only to what you've heard, no critical thought process allowed. I think you might have a strong chance of a very successful career as an arab apologist.

It goes like this. It's not the arabs fault the ME is the most violent region in the world. the israelis make the arabs kill each other. It's not the arabs fault they have crappy leadership. The israelis make live under tyrants and dictators. It's not the arabs fault they can't attract foreign investment. It's the israelis who point out that these countries don't operate by any standard of law that will allow the west (or the east) to invest, and the israelis higlight the lack of representative gov't and lack of peaceful political change. In fact the israelis cause the gov'ts to be overthrown by other dictators and tyrants. And it's not the arabs fault that the Asians who were once on a par with the arabs have left them in the dust. It's the israelis fault 1) for assisting the asians and 2) stealing all that oil, selling it and then giving it to the dictators....

i'm wondering what you do for a living paul. Any critical thinking involved?

Know what I do while at work,observe the world and the bullshit that goes on in it.Do you think Israel would be anything apart from another bit of sand on the planet if it wasnt for American money,gie me a break.
This whole thing is a smokescreen,to make the Arabs out as uncivilised bad guys.Since when has the west started worrying about Arabs,never is the answer.

Know what I do while at work,observe the world and the bullshit that goes on in it.Do you think Israel would be anything apart from another bit of sand on the planet if it wasnt for American money,gie me a break.
This whole thing is a smokescreen,to make the Arabs out as uncivilised bad guys.Since when has the west started worrying about Arabs,never is the answer.

But the amount of money the arabs have taken in from oil dwarfs the US aid to the israelis. The israelis have something to show for it. A nice little technology industry that delivers products world wide, a bunch of nominations for Nobel prizes in medicine and science.
From your observations paul could you tell us why have the israelis created something and the arabs, with multiples of money at their disposal compared to the israelis, only got a bunch of goats and dates?

Well I may be wrong here but I believe that NONE of Israels neighbours are oil producers.So the amount of money they get from oil is zero as compared to Israels billions in handouts from Washington,along with scholarships to American Universities were they have the luxury of advanced education.
Who are these Nobel Prize winners?
Why has Israel created something and the Arabs ie its neighbours nothing,easy.
American money.Lots and lots of American money.

It is your hero......the Smirking Imbecile from Crawford Texas.
Actually he is from the wonderful land of Connecticut, a liberal promise land with a funny name.

But the amount of money the arabs have taken in from oil dwarfs the US aid to the israelis. The israelis have something to show for it. A nice little technology industry that delivers products world wide, a bunch of nominations for Nobel prizes in medicine and science.
From your observations paul could you tell us why have the israelis created something and the arabs, with multiples of money at their disposal compared to the israelis, only got a bunch of goats and dates?

Just out of curiosity waldo, since you are of the opinion that the plight of the Arab countries is due mostly to the fact that they are ruled by dictators who keep the oil revenues for themselves, why are you willing to do business with them?

The Spanish had all the gold but the British beat them and became rich.

There is an Israeli joke to the effect of "Why did God give the Arabs all the oil?" "To punish them."

So what are you saying,serve the empire or be destroyed.
I think that would probably be unconstitutional,most definitely unAmerican.
Is that seriously what you got out of it? :rolleyes: In short, EVERYONE prospers if they play ball. It's not rocket science.

I think you meant the American ball,which as we all see daily,not everyone wants to play.

Just out of curiosity waldo, since you are of the opinion that the plight of the Arab countries is due mostly to the fact that they are ruled by dictators who keep the oil revenues for themselves, why are you willing to do business with them?
It's not a question of obliging your morals or conscience, Vile - until we develop a viable method of extracting power via (in the immortal words of Darth) "moonbeams and granola", then we're STUCK doing business with them. It's really that simple.

I sometimes wonder why some Americans think its they're duty to Democrasize the world,with America as its leader of course.

I think you meant the American ball,which as we all see daily,not everyone wants to play.
No, my friend, the game most assuredly is "western" ball, and having said that, I'd like to state the glaringly obvious: everyone who plays it wins - including the untold MILLIONS of people you'd rather let rot. Don't you get it, Paul??? It's a win/win for everyone involved.

In Ireland...you can preach all you want because you've got nothing (or very little) to lose. In America...we don't have a choice in the matter. In all honesty, I wish we had your problems.

OK lets hear it.
'youve got nothing (or very little to loose).

I sometimes wonder why some Americans think its they're duty to Democrasize the world,with America as its leader of course.
Is democracy not better, Paul? Just answer the question - no pissing, no moaning - just answer it.

Okay. Now that you've determined that it DOES work better for EVERYONE, then perhaps you can explain why America has to lead a crusade for democracy while the whole of Europe just sits there (holding their dicks, no less) only to criticize us for doing THE RIGHT THING?

Since when did the people of my ancestry become such pussies? You people used to have balls.

Firstly:How did you know what I was doing,have you got spyware.
Secondly:Im just getting used to Democracy myself,its actualy pretty good,a bit boring,but pretty good.
I havent got a problem with America freeing the world,its just that I very opposed to how they go about it at present.

Firstly:How did you know what I was doing,have you got spyware.
I don't think "spyware" is meant to be taken quite so literally, Paul. :D

Good one, though...

I havent got a problem with America freeing the world,its just that I very opposed to how they go about it at present.
Well, we could use some help, ya know... ;)

Salvation by the sword

No...Salvation by persuasion. And if that doesn't work, then by the sword. :)

Well, we could use some help, ya know... ;)
I dont think yourself or others would appreciate my kinda help,if I were a yank Id be called a liberal I think.
Amongst other things.

I dont think yourself or others would appreciate my kinda help,if I were a yank Id be called a liberal I think.
Amongst other things.
You don't wanna be thought of as "dirty" or "useless", do you? Oh wait...

You collect money "under the table", don't you??? Never mind. ;)

Not sure about the first line,
the second line,yep. Im a firm believer in the republic of paulc.

the second line,yep. Im a firm believer in the republic of paulc.
LOL!

You're a pretty funny guy, Paul. :)