So I was browing the web and thought I'd see how the gubernatorial debate in California went last night. I was stunned to read this part:


• On a proposal to grant illegal immigrants the right to drivers' licenses -- a controversial issue in a state with a large immigrant population -- all but McClintock said they supported the idea, saying even illegal immigrants contributed to the economy and would need a driver's license to get to work. McClintock said the proposal undermines the enforcement of immigration laws.

I couldn't believe my eyes. I know I'd heard about Californians doing some nutty things in the past...

I just wonder how those illegal immigrants that will probably have drivers liscences handle those little things on the side of the roads that are known to most drivers as STREET SIGNS!!!! LMAO!!! I can see it now.

Officer: "Good evening sir. I pulled you over because you ran that stop sign back there."

Illegal immigrant: "No habla englais!"

Okay, seriously, I doubt that California would be so stupid to hand out licenses to people that could not read English. I say this, but I can't help but wonder, since this is California we're talking about...ahem, back to what I was saying... Wouldn't it be possible for an immigrant to just memorize the test portion or copy off of someone and then pass the driving portion? Then you would have a driver who would be legally driving in a country that didn't have the faintest idea what the street signs are saying. Would I still have to drive on the same road as this person? What happens when they don't obey traffic laws posted by street signs and then kill my family? Who pays? I sure as hell can't sue them, they won't have any money. Not to mention they just killed my family, who are not replaceable. Scary.

Leave it to California (stupid sh** heads)

Yeah, so now as I stated in my post with Corporate Greed. I'd rather have unions make these people citizens so they pay taxes like every other hard working American , cause they sure as hell aren't going to go away any time soon, and more come everyday. So now not only do we pay for their healthcare, education, publice services, now car insurance rates will skyrocket such as the case in NJ, PA, & NY where large populations of uninsured drivers are, because they are not citizens, but still drive. As I've said politicans are supporting Big Business more than ever wheter they are breaking the law or not, and illegals are cheap labor which they love, and if we stopped the atmosphere of cheap labor in the fields that they work in, corporations will no longer loathe for these workers who freeload of American citizens who pay taxes. I'm 100% for unions, but I think with or without a union, Americans need to wake up to this trend of corporations running America's politics now instead of it's citizens. Unless your a lobby group or contribute a large sum of money to a politican your voice means nothing to them anymore. I don't claim to know how this can be done, but I feel strongly about campain contribution reform is a good start, along with workers getting there fair share.

Originally posted by Karankawa


Okay, seriously, I doubt that California would be so stupid to hand out licenses to people that could not read English.

But road signs are an international code. They do not require to know any specific language, except in a few occasions that are very easy to learn. I've been driving in the USA without any problem as a tourist. I speak english but many tourists do not - or even legal immigrants. Whenever american people go abroad, they do the same.
There are minor differences between the road signs in Europe and the USA but they are very easily assimilated - I do not see why people from Mexico would have more trouble driving in the USA than I did.

However, I find it quite surprising that people that are illegal are authorised to have some legal papers. Maybe it is a way of acknowledging the fact that illegal immigrants are in fact a very important part of California's economy without granting them a legal status.

The Border Patrol, the INS, local law enforcement types, and related agencies need to do a better job of gathering up these illegals & by doing so put an end to these insane ideas of giving known illegals access to some forms of legitimacy within this nation. Somebody wanting to come to this country needs to come in through the front door -- that being whatever the 21st Century version of Ellis Island is, and not slithering though a crack in the fence.

Originally posted by hextall0698
I'd rather have unions make these people citizens so they pay taxes like every other hard working American

I didn't realize that unions had the power to grant citizenship.

Business more than ever wheter they are breaking the law or not, and illegals are cheap labor which they love, and if we stopped the atmosphere of cheap labor in the fields that they work in, corporations will no longer loathe for these workers who freeload of American citizens who pay taxes. I'm 100% for unions, but I think with or without a union, Americans need to wake up to this trend of corporations running America's politics now instead of it's citizens. Unless your a lobby group or contribute a large sum of money to a politican your voice means nothing to them anymore. I don't claim to know how this can be done, but I feel strongly about campain contribution reform is a good start, along with workers getting there fair share.

I've never worked for any company, large or small, that didn't make it a point to check my legal status. Employing illegal immigrants is pretty darn dangerous and companies don't mess with that. You're dreaming.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by astrapol2
[B]But road signs are an international code. They do not require to know any specific language, except in a few occasions

I find it quite surprising that people that are illegal are authorised to have some legal papers. Maybe it is a way of acknowledging the fact that illegal immigrants are in fact a very important part of California's economy without granting them a legal status.
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your correct that driving is a very simple thing to do and road signs and street lights are international. This is simple a way for corporations to keep there cheap labor from being deported to the country they came from.
Don't be fooled. Millions of illegals drive around in cars everyday, the only problem is when they get pulled over for traffic violations. Otherwise hardly anything in there daily life would require proof of residence.
So how does big business stop them from being deported? Given them a license. I think a license is a right only citizens should have. Doing this makes them a sort of semi-citizen. Work here, play here, get paid here, BUT DON'T PAY TAXES HERE!! IT's just Big Business telling us how to run our country simply for them to continue to make huge profits, instead of paying people a decent wage for a decent living.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
I didn't realize that unions had the power to grant citizenship.

Unions do not grant it, they supply the person with the proper channels and classes to do so.

I've never worked for any company, large or small, that didn't make it a point to check my legal status. Employing illegal immigrants is pretty darn dangerous and companies don't mess with that. You're dreaming. [/B]

LionelHutz. By the previous posts that I have read of yours in my Corporate Greed forum, I respect your thoughts and believe you are a successful educated man who would not have to work in the fields of labor these people are in, and that would be why you have not witnessed any of this going on. Farmers workhands, food plant processing centers, bus boys in restaurants are just a few of the jobs they have. I am not dreaming, but believe your circle of friends or employee counterparts does not allow you to see these things, or maybe the state you live in is still very old fashion such as those in the middle of the country, because yes illegals are not an issue there yet. In NJ & PA where I am at illegals are a very known and ignored issue such as in CA.

Originally posted by Karankawa
Okay, seriously, I doubt that California would be so stupid to hand out licenses to people that could not read English.

Astrapol2 brings up a good point, this country is handing out lic. everyday to people that don't know the language. Just go to any city.

Originally posted by hextall0698
LionelHutz. By the previous posts that I have read of yours in my Corporate Greed forum, I respect your thoughts and believe you are a successful educated man who would not have to work in the fields of labor these people are in, and that would be why you have not witnessed any of this going on. Farmers workhands, food plant processing centers, bus boys in restaurants are just a few of the jobs they have. I am not dreaming, but believe your circle of friends or employee counterparts does not allow you to see these things, or maybe the state you live in is still very old fashion such as those in the middle of the country, because yes illegals are not an issue there yet. In NJ & PA where I am at illegals are a very known and ignored issue such as in CA.

I'll grant you that - I certainly don't find myself in farm country very often.

There are minor differences between the road signs in Europe and the USA but they are very easily assimilated - I do not see why people from Mexico would have more trouble driving in the USA than I did.

Hazardous Situation #1:

Don't Europeans use the metric system? I'd be curious to see what speed they would select when they saw a Speed Limit 55 sign. Our signs don't say Speed Limit 55 Miles/Hour. It just says Speed Limit 55.

Hazardous Situation #2:

"Road Construction Ahead Use Caution" This is a common sign. I doubt that foreigners will be able to read this.

Hazardous Situation #2:

"Speed Limit 20 School Zone (accompanied by hours that the limit is enforced)" I doubt that foreigners would understand this sign either. Very, very scary.

This goes for Americans that might be driving in other countries, though, too. I don't think Americans should be able to drive in France or wherever if they can't read their street signs. I'm really unfamiliar with Europe, so I cannot really speak on that particular subject very intelligently.

Don't Europeans use the metric system? I'd be curious to see what speed they would select when they saw a Speed Limit 55 sign. Our signs don't say Speed Limit 55 Miles/Hour. It just says Speed Limit 55.
Only a problem if you brought your own car(look at the speedometer, numbers should match up, unless you want to speed or something). Which would be quite funny to do, as European cars are smaller, because roads are smaller. I'd love to see a SUV on a French road.(Mom has been to France, I've only been to England, roads are bigger(I think) but still to small).

"Road Construction Ahead Use Caution" This is a common sign. I doubt that foreigners will be able to read this.
Colour, colour is special. I think the little man with the little stick in his hand(is that a shovel, or a hoe, or what?) kinda helps too.

"Speed Limit 20 School Zone (accompanied by hours that the limit is enforced)" I doubt that foreigners would understand this sign either. Very, very scary.
That might be a bit of a problem. I'm think thinking numbers are the same, so hours wont be a problem, and you should learn enough of the language to read "CAUTION". Most that I see have flashing yellow lights, and those in themselves mean caution.

Reading the signs aren't the problem.

Only a problem if you brought your own car(look at the speedometer, numbers should match up, unless you want to speed or something).

I think American cars have both metric and English nowadays. Hopefully foreignors would simply know what the signs meant. Hopefully.

Blib,

You know what, I could tear down every single one of your arguments about why people don't really need to read when they are driving, but I'm not real interested in wasting my time disproving you again. The fact is that road signs do, albeit not all the time, have some very pertinent information, and if drivers can't read, then they are too dangerous to be on the road.

I'm surprised that anyone that has any amount of education would even try to justify that you don't need to read English to drive.

Originally posted by Karankawa
Hazardous Situation #1:

Don't Europeans use the metric system? I'd be curious to see what speed they would select when they saw a Speed Limit 55 sign. Our signs don't say Speed Limit 55 Miles/Hour. It just says Speed Limit 55.

I usually do not put my french car in my suitcase when I travel. And american car rental companies usually have cars where the speed is indicated in miles. I guess the cars used by illegal immigrants are american too.

Hazardous Situation #2:

"Road Construction Ahead Use Caution" This is a common sign. I doubt that foreigners will be able to read this.



The triangle road sign indicating works, or the little cones on the road, or a bulldozer crossing the street are usually clues that can be interpretated by the average driver.

"Speed Limit 20 School Zone (accompanied by hours that the limit is enforced)"


Usually there is also a sign showing kids crossing the street. If not, the speed limit and hours are in numbers and anyone can guess he has to slow down even if he does no fully understand why.

I'm really unfamiliar with Europe, so I cannot really speak on that particular subject very intelligently.

The city where I live is 10 minutes away from Belgium, 1 hour away from Netherlands, 2 hours away from UK, Luxembourg and Germany. It is crossed every year by hundreds of thousands of non french speaking tourists, many of them coming from UK where people drive on the left, have cars with the driving wheel on the right and speed in miles.

Alle these people manage to mix quite easily and do not cause any kind of trouble. I have been driving in many countries on 3 continents and never had trouble in adapting myself to it (even in Greece where you quickly learn to drive on the safety lane of freeways as everybody does !). It just takes some common sense and to memorize a few words (in Czech, "Pozor Vlak" means "caution : tramway. I just love the way it sounds !)

I think the biggest road hazard comes from speed and alcohol, not from foreigners.

Oh, it works in Europe according to Astra, woohoo! I totally think I'm wrong now and that no one needs to read street signs. Who cares about what is safe and what's not, it's just me and my family driving on the road!

You know, I've heard a lot of bad stories about how driving conditions are in Europe. I hardly think I want to imitate Europe on much of anything, much less how we should drive or who should.

And Astra, incidentally, I have no idea how many traffic accidents are caused in Europe because of speed and alcohol, but in my state, according to my state defensive driving class, the #1 cause of traffic accidents is slow speed. Fast speed is #3 and I believe alcohol was #5.

But this is neither here nor there. I'm more interested in doing what I can to make our roads safer. Why would I be interested in that, you might ask? Because driving is the most dangerous thing I do, and if I or anyone in my family dies prematurely, I strongly believe it will be because of someone else's driving.

Originally posted by Karankawa


You know, I've heard a lot of bad stories about how driving conditions are in Europe. I hardly think I want to imitate Europe on much of anything, much less how we should drive or who should.

(…)

But this is neither here nor there. I'm more interested in doing what I can to make our roads safer. Why would I be interested in that, you might ask? Because driving is the most dangerous thing I do, and if I or anyone in my family dies prematurely, I strongly believe it will be because of someone else's driving.

You're right on two points :

1- Driving is probably safer in the USA than in Europe (especially in France where there are far too many people dying on the road every year). It is due to many things IMO : more highways (small roads are more dangerous), speed (speed limits in France are not enforced by many people, that is a shame), cultural factors (people tend to be more respectful of other in anglo-saxon countries than in latin countries).

2- Driving is very dangerous and everything should be done to ensure maximum safety on the road.

Of course, not reading english is a drawback on US roads. But I keep on thinking, from my own experience, that it is a very minor one. I was just trying to explain that it is not so difficult to drive in a foreign country.

Oh, and just for Blib's information : there are many SUVs in France too. Quite useless cars for most of their owners, though.

What is being ignored here is the tremendous security risk posed by giving these immigrant criminals legitimate credentials. Sure, most think of illegals as simply struggling farm workers doing jobs the wealthy Americans don't want, but what of the illegals that have a different agenda? The great state of California has "screwed the pooch" on this one. These people are in this country without having come through any type of legitimate immigration office. We know nothing of their motives for being here, nothing of their backgrounds. That's about as goddamn dumb as it gets.

Sorry to bring this thread back, but don't some states pick jurors by randomly picking driver's liscences? Wouldn't that be interesting if an illegal immigrant ended up on a jury?

This is definately a situation where I feel I need to be completely blunt. We should not be giving illegal immigrants ANYTHING except a bus ride home and one of those dog collars that shocks them every time they step back over the border. They are here illegally, stealing our jobs and God knows what else, and the last think we need to do is start promoting it. -John

Originally posted by Jonathan
This is definately a situation where I feel I need to be completely blunt. We should not be giving illegal immigrants ANYTHING except a bus ride home and one of those dog collars that shocks them every time they step back over the border. They are here illegally, stealing our jobs and God knows what else, and the last think we need to do is start promoting it. -John

you stand for the rule of law?? RACIST!!!!!!

OK, calm down everyone -- Dop is here to soothe the situation.

Let me start with a hardy laugh -- BWAhahahahahahahaha -- Now I feel better.

This licenses for illegals is beyond meaningless. It's no more than a brilliant gambit by Davis and crew. He' knows that few will apply for the license, given the wording of the statute. Applicants will need a Federal Taxpayers ID number which is not the same as a social security number. Believe me, few illegals will want to open their lives to the scrutiny the IRS applies to Fed Tax Numbers.

Another BWAhahahahahahaha ....

On a more serious note ... the illegals are here and they ain't going back so the best situation for all is to find some way to fit them into society as law-abiding-tax-paying-health-insurance-carrying-so-they-use-a-hmo-instead-of-emergency rooms-when Juan falls off his bicycle-that-americans-are-paying-for members of society.

Deep breath -- Phew !!!!

When I drive down the PCH (Pacific Coast Hgwy) and see an illegal in the next lane (yes, I can spot them) I will feel much better knowing that person has been tested to show some semblance of driver knowledge and has insurance so when he rams me broadside, my insurance doesn't force me to sue myself under the non-insured portion of my policy. The way it is now -- geeeesh ... just plain scary.

Folks, it's really no big deal. These licenses will be tagged as unique so they won't have the right to vote or any other citizen privileges.

As a side note ... my license is good for no more than renting a car, renting a hotel room (no, not with my girlfriend -- get your mind out of the gutter) and to flash at some idiot at the airport who nods his head in agreement with "ok, you're cleared -- board up pardner".

For everything truly meaningful in life, I need a passport and an original birth certificate (with the stamp).

So, life goes on and more than likely in a few years the illegal drivers license argument will carry about as much weight as the hoola hoop and pet rock.

Dop

Finally, this is the first pro-liscensing post that I've read that makes sense! Thanks for shedding some light on this subject. I still find myself queasy with the thought of this law possibly passing in Texas, but you did say some things that make sense.