This clown is going to find as much relief in heaven as those muslim homicide bombers & terrorists do.
The mere fact that we give any publicity to this individual prior to his being put out of our misery is infuriating.

cnn news (http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/09/03/abortion.execution/index.html)

Killing someone to stop killing fetuses is completely hypocritical. What a moron.

What do you expect. He's religious.

Originally posted by Blibblob
What do you expect. He's religious.

Now that's just moronic.

Originally posted by LionelHutz
Now that's just moronic. Consider the source.

We have been following this story in Australia too.

It is disgusting that someone can get so much time to speak about what he has done. If he was sentenced to death, why was he still given access to the media? It should have been handled in a way that didn't portray him as a martyr to the cause.

Originally posted by Dreamweaver
We have been following this story in Australia too.

It is disgusting that someone can get so much time to speak about what he has done. If he was sentenced to death, why was he still given access to the media? It should have been handled in a way that didn't portray him as a martyr to the cause.

Just one of those unfortunate legal traditions I guess, like the final extravagent last meal.

Now that's just moronic.
I was comenting on the hypocrite part. I don't quite see how it is moronic. I guess I'll have to explain since none of you get it. The man is a priest. He follows one of the most hypocritical and contradictory religions on the planet. Now does it make sense? The man goes "I'm Pro-Life" BANG BANG BANG!

I think you should try to baffle someone else with your bullshit. You're not communicating with 10 year olds here.

Originally posted by Blibblob
Now that's just moronic.
I was comenting on the hypocrite part. I don't quite see how it is moronic. I guess I'll have to explain since none of you get it. The man is a priest. He follows one of the most hypocritical and contradictory religions on the planet. Now does it make sense? The man goes "I'm Pro-Life" BANG BANG BANG!

Oh, well when I said "that's moronic" I was talking about something else as well. How silly of you to assume that I mean what I say.

Originally posted by Blibblob

I was comenting on the hypocrite part. I don't quite see how it is moronic. I guess I'll have to explain since none of you get it. The man is a priest. He follows one of the most hypocritical and contradictory religions on the planet. Now does it make sense? The man goes "I'm Pro-Life" BANG BANG BANG!
The article also says the Presbyterians kicked him out because of his violent tendencies, so technically he’s no longer a Presbyterian. I don’t think this thread belongs in the religious section at all.

Oh, well when I said "that's moronic" I was talking about something else as well. How silly of you to assume that I mean what I say.
lol

The article also says the Presbyterians kicked him out because of his violent tendencies, so technically he’s no longer a Presbyterian. I don’t think this thread belongs in the religious section at all.
LOL!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
:rolleyes:

Doing evil so good may come?

I don't recall reading in the New Testament that Jesus, when dying on the cross, called the 2 murderers he was cruficied with, "Morons" etc. In fact, to the one that believed on Him, He said, "Today you will be with Me in paradise!". Though this minister did something evil, this man believed that doing that would be the lesser of two evils. And you know what: once saved for ever saved. He WILL be in Heaven with Jesus!
On another subject: when in the Bible they brought the adulteress to Jesus to be stoned to death, all He said was, "He of you who is without sin can cast the first stone." Anyone still
wanting to throw stones out there??? Remember folks that a Christian is a follower of Jesus, and Jesus is Love, forgiveness and mercy. How about we show some too? A Christian should not
critisise, but pray for others.

Beneck...you better buckle up your chin strap. The administrator here is not only an atheist, he/she is a God hater. (although im sure he/she will deny this if necessary) So prepare yourself for sacrilege. Just a warning.

Thanks Havoc! A religion board run by an atheist????

Those thinkers who cannot believe in any gods often assert that the love of humanity would be in itself sufficient for them; and so, perhaps, it would, if they had it.

G. K. Chesterton

I have to ask(especially the religious people), do you think this guy did the right thing?

How do you think God will look at him, after all he might have saved 100 unborn children?

Also if he did save unborn children when does human life begain at conception, 2weeks, 3 months, or when the baby is finnally born?

I know some people are starting to look at him like a hero. After all he killed one, to save many.

My personal opinion is that abortion should only be legal in cases of rape or if the child is going to be born with an extreme handicap.

That said, i look at these abortion doctors and see them performing nothing short of legalized murder. While i do not advocate killing them, i certainly shed no tears for him. You reap what you sow. If you make your living murdering innocent victims then a violent death should come as no surprise.

But i do not believe taking the law into your own hands is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by HaVoK
Beneck...you better buckle up your chin strap. The administrator here is not only an atheist, he/she is a God hater. (although im sure he/she will deny this if necessary) So prepare yourself for sacrilege. Just a warning.
Ah yes. I hate what I do not believe. That makes sense. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I do not "run" this site. Really, Drew is the owner of this site and also is the only one with access to the server.

Finally, for future reference, I am male.
Thanks Havoc! A religion board run by an atheist????

Those thinkers who cannot believe in any gods often assert that the love of humanity would be in itself sufficient for them; and so, perhaps, it would, if they had it.

G. K. Chesterton
Are you making the absolutely baseless assertion that I do not love humanity? You haven't even spoken with me yet! At least get acquainted with me first before you accuse me of hating my species and also society in general.

And, while this is not a religion site per se, you are right in that it does have a religion forum. An atheist running this is not only fine, but actually should be preferable, as it keeps religious bias out of the Moderation of said forum.

Originally posted by BorgHunter

And, while this is not a religion site per se, you are right in that it does have a religion forum. An atheist running this is not only fine, but actually should be preferable, as it keeps religious bias out of the Moderation of said forum.

Preferable to whom? You have a definate religious bias Borg. You hold people of faith in extreme disdain, so how are you not biased?

I don't hold them in disdain at all! I question whether their beliefs are correct, yes, but I certainly respect anyone's beliefs.

In defence of BorgHunter (which he probably doesn't need anyway), I have stated my belief in the Wiccan faith, and he at no time condemned or criticised me or what I believe in. The people who are most offended by what I believe in seem to be the Christians. I don't know why this is the case, but that it how it appears to me.

Lack of belief in 'A' or several Gods, does not make a person less repectful to those around them, or the world they live in. We all give our opinions, and that is what we joined the forum for.


Cheers

Originally posted by Dreamweaver
In defence of BorgHunter (which he probably doesn't need anyway), I have stated my belief in the Wiccan faith, and he at no time condemned or criticised me or what I believe in. The people who are most offended by what I believe in seem to be the Christians. I don't know why this is the case, but that it how it appears to me.

Lack of belief in 'A' or several Gods, does not make a person less repectful to those around them, or the world they live in. We all give our opinions, and that is what we joined the forum for.


Cheers Im a christian. Did i criticize or condemn you? For that matter, have any christians on this forum done this to you? If they have, i must have missed that post.

I liked the part in the movie "Rob Roy", where the wife of the hero tells him she got pregnant

after she gotr raped, and he said, "It's not the babies fault!". It never is, but he's the one that

suffers!! Abortion should never be legal! As it is in most societies! This man is not a hero for

killing a doctor that kills babies. God will not look kindly on him for killing someone else, but

neither does look God kindly on those that murder innocent, defenceless babies by the hundreds

and thousands. Sounds like Moloch's service the Old Testament, where they threw their lives

babies in the fire! ... Was it bad for the US and Allies after the 2nd World War to hang some of

the German Nazi's they captured? Is killing your fellowman only legal if the law of the country

says they need to die? In the 10 Commandments it says "Thou shalt not kill", so God doesn't like

it. However, if this man believed in Jesus, and he does if he's a minister, he's forgiven for all that,

by the blood of Jesus that was shed on Calvary. Forgiveness is something we all need more off.

Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit.

Peter Ustinov

Oh, boy. Here we go.

This is why I hate fundamentalist anything (Christian, Muslim, atheist, whatever). you think you can do whatever the hell you want because "all will be forgiven by Jesus" or some such fundie B.S. If Christianity is the true religion, and that's a big "if" for me, Jesus wouldn't look kindly at all at someone who killed someone else. True Christianity teaches love and kindness, and yes, forgiveness, but killing someone is seen somewhere in the Bible (I can't recall where, and I don't have one handy at the moment) as an abomination that pretty much gets you sent straight to hell. I think that if there is indeed a god, and he is a "kind, loving" god as the Bible often says (I happen to believe that if the Universe was created by god, he created it and said "Who gives a crap about this, I'm going somewhere else" and left, but that's another story :D), he won't give a damn (no pun intended :D) whether or not you've been worshipping him, he'll judge you on your actions, and whether you have done good or evil in the world. For this reason, this man would go straight to hell.

I hate you people who think you can kill whoever you want if you believe in Jesus and you'll still go to heaven. That's not Christianity, that is a perverted, twisted form of it. You people make me sick.

As far as not loving humanity, dear Borghunter, I don't know, I just posted something Chesterton said. I have never spoken to you, that's true, but you were "recommended" by Havoc as an
atheist, so therefore the quote. But looking at your 2nd sentence, you ARE an atheist, and how is this keeping "religious bias" out of the forum? Because you're biased to not believe in God, and therefore any religious nut that does needs to be "biased" against you? Another good word for atheist is maybe ignoramus? Although it sounds degenerative, it actually only means an ignorant person. Could it be you're ignorant about God and therefore you're an atheist? Ever read the Holy Bible????
And dear Dreamweaver, I don't know you either, but according to my dictionary the wiccan faith is as old as the pre-Christian days in Europe. With other words, it's a pagan nature religion.
Maybe Christians don't like that because it's a religion that they actually got converted from 2000 years ago? But like Havoc points out, he didn't critize or condem you, and neither do I. I actually feel sorry for you that you can not enjoy the extacies of knowing Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior, and instead worship nature rather than Him that made nature! But I pray for
you, and hope you will get to know the one true God.

_______________________________________
Here's a quote of former USSR President Gorbachov:
Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind.

Friend Borghunter, thanks for your reply. You seem to get all hot under the collar about things you don't understand. For one, you don't know me (as much as I don't know you, as you so eloquently said in a previous note), but I am not "fundamendalist" anything. I am not an Evangelical, nor a Methodist, nor A Catholic or a Protestant, or whatever. I am a Christian, one who believes in the teachings of Christ. Jesus said that the old Testament Law was scrapped because of His coming, no more 10 Commandments, just one commandment. He said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself!" Just because this minister made a mistake in killing someone he thought deserved to die, doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't forgive him. Jesus was hanging with murders on the cross, and forgave them right there, for believing on him. At least one of them. Just because you don't understand Salvation, or forgiveness, or mercy, doesn't mean there isn't any, and it just ain't so. It seems from all I can gather from what you say that you have had some contact with "Old Testament" Christians, but it seems you know darn little about New Testament Christianity. A Christian is someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus, not necesarily in old "crap". It was George Bernard Shaw, a famous and wellknown writer in the beginning of the last century, and who by the way was a socialist himself, that said, "There's nothing wrong with Christianity, it's just that so few people try it!". Try it Borg, maybe you'll find something you don't even know that's missing. Jesus loves you, even if you don't know him. Read the Gospel of John in the New Testament, that is if you really have a Bible handy somewhere in your house. The words of Jesus can change your life forever, too, as it has mine. I used to be an atheist myself too, for about 18 years even, after having had some kind of Christian upbringing. But the words of Jesus have given me Life and Life eternal, and I know I am forgiven for my sins, because Jesus died for them on the cross. As he did for you dear Borgie. Try Him!

_______________________________________
We hand folks over to God’s mercy, and show none ourselves.

George Eliot

I'm interested in this old testament vs. new testament Christianity thing of which you speak. I've never heard of such a thing.

I am a Christian as well, but perhaps I'm not a very good one because I never, ever go around proselytizing (sp?). Part of it is because I really dislike it when other Christians, usually the evangelical types, do it to me (my brand of Christianity apparently being the wrong kind). Part of it is, as I've mentioned in other threads, that while I have faith that God exists, I can't prove it. Borg or Dreamweaver might very well be correct in their beliefs. Finally, they're both intelligent adults and have made their choices as I've made mine. I don't feel like it's my place to question the validity of those choices.

Dear Lionel, hi. Basically the "NEW" testament was the new covenant God made with His chosen people. In this case the chosen people were not the Jews, but those that chose to believe on Jesus, whether Jew or not. That's why it is a NEW Testament (covenant) between God and His people. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 that He came to fulfill the law. Read this whole chapter, which is of the Sermon on Mount, and see the comparisons that Jesus makes between the OLD covenant (called "the Law") and the NEW Testament (he says, "For I say unto you..."). In Acts 4:12 it says that there is only one name given under Heaven whereby we must be saved.... And it isn't Moses or the 10 Commandments! It's Jesus! Only Jesus saves.
As far as faith in Gods excistance. In Hebrews 11:1 it says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." And the chapter goes on to name all the saints that although not seeing the Lord, or God, believed and went to their reward. In verse 6 of the same chapter it says, "For he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." You seek God diligently, and He will reward you with the faith to believe.
As far as Borg and Dreamweaver being right in their beliefs: they can have of course any belief that they wish, however, just looking at the Bible and all the people that believed in that Book and the Lord over the centuries, I don't see any belief, or faith, that has the same power and attraction to people. Even today, the Bible is the most sold book every year, as it has been now for decades. I don't know about Dreamweavers faith, as it is kind of new to me (funny that it so old no?), but as far as being atheist, I was there too, for many years. Till one day one of those "other" christians told me about receiving Jesus as my Savior. I didn't do it, but thought about it for a while, and several days later I did, and THAT changed my life. My personal decision to receive Jesus as my Savior! If you haven't done this Lionel, I would suggest that you do. It will open your eyes to many things, and will change your life forever.

____________________________________________
The fool has said in his heart, "There's no God."

The Bible

Originally posted by Beneck
And dear Dreamweaver, I don't know you either, but according to my dictionary the wiccan faith is as old as the pre-Christian days in Europe. With other words, it's a pagan nature religion.
Maybe Christians don't like that because it's a religion that they actually got converted from 2000 years ago? But like Havoc points out, he didn't critize or condem you, and neither do I. I actually feel sorry for you that you can not enjoy the extacies of knowing Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior, and instead worship nature rather than Him that made nature! But I pray for
you, and hope you will get to know the one true God.

_______________________________________
Here's a quote of former USSR President Gorbachov:
Jesus was the first socialist, the first to seek a better life for mankind.



I wouldn't feel sorry for me Beneck. My life is wonderful as it is, and I don't suffer from missing Jesus or any other ficticious character. Maybe your faith has made you condescending as well, because I am not an old woman, and therefore do not to be referred to as 'dear'.

As we have previously discussed, we have no proof of God, and only the Bible to believe in. I believe in neither in the way Christians portray it. I can't believe that a whole religion is based on what has been written in one book.

If you believe in God and Jesus, then good for you. There are others of us, however, who don't.

Beneck, you claim to not be evangelical, yet you contradict yourself by asking me to "try" Christianity. I was, in fact, a Christian a few years back, prayed, went to church, etc. But then I began to have second thoughts. Praying didn't ever seem to have an effect on anything, nor did going to church. I began to question the existance of a god, and here I am today.

And also, just because something is popular does not mean it is correct. The belief that many politicans were Communist was popular during the Red Scare, but it turned out not to be correct. The belief that diseases were caused by evil spirits was popular a few hundred years ago, but it, of course, is not correct, as science has proven. Furthermore, Christianity is not too popular in Africa, the Middle East, or Asia.

__________________________________________________ __
I hate you people who think you can kill whoever you want if you believe in Jesus and you'll still go to heaven. That's not Christianity, that is a perverted, twisted form of it. You people make me sick.
__________________________________________________ __

So friend BorgHunter, although you say yourself that you don't know me, or I know you, you already hate me, just for what I say and stand for? And you claim to be un-biased, right??? Well, Jesus loves you, and I love you! And dear Borg, even if you think that I contradict myself, I am not a fundamentalist, nor an Evangelical! Ha.

__________________________________________________ __
Always remember, others may hate you. Those who hate you don’t win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.

Richard M. Nixon

__________________________________________________ ___________
As we have previously discussed, we have no proof of God, and only the Bible to believe in. I believe in neither in the way Christians portray it. I can't believe that a whole religion is based on what has been written in one book.
__________________________________________________ ___________

I don't know who is "we" that discussed this, as I am new to this forum. However, there's lots of proof that God excists, and lots more than just the Bible to believe in. Over the centuries literally millions of people have written about their faith and belief in God. But you say, we only have the Bible to believe in" and then contradict yourself by saying that you don't believe in it. What is your religion based on? Tales handed down from generation to generation? Name me some famous (or even infamous) people that believed in your religion and what they have done for mankind? I am very interested in that subject!

And, because I call you "dear" doesn't mean I think you're an old woman. According to my dictionary, "dear" means amongst others, "Highly esteemed or regarded. Used in direct address, especially in salutations: Dear Dreamweaver". You see, just because I don't agree with you, or you with me, yet, doesn't mean that I hate you or don't fold you in disregard. Sorry if you think that.

__________________________________________
All things are artificial, for nature is the art of God.

Sir Thomas Browne

Hey BorgHunter, don't get me wrong: I ALSO don't believe in going to church. Church has nothing to do with God or Jesus. That's only what "church-people" want you to believe, that you have to go there! Jesus says to look to Him, and He also says that, "the temple of the most High is not made with hands", with other words it's not a church. In fact, we, you and I, are his temple if we receive Him as our Saviour!
As far as popularity is concerned, maybe you should read how popular Christians were during the beginning stages and millions were slaughtered by the Romans. Or maybe you should talk to an everage Chines Christian about how popular that religion is in his country. And, although you think Christianity is not too popular in the Middle East or Africa, you might be surprised how many REAL christians you find out there, expecially in Africa. Not the kind that lives in your country, or even mine for that matter, but REAL christians, who believe and act and live on their faith. (I suppose you're in the States, don't really know though.)

__________________________________________________ ____
Better be ignorant of a matter than half know it.

Publilius Syrus

I may be completely wrong here but doesn't a saved Christian have to constantly confess their sins to God? If this man doesn't think he did anything wrong then I'm sure he does not believe that his action was a sin and therefore did not confess and repent for his sin. So to my point, I think this guy is psycho and is going to go to hell.

I think he gets to be a slave in his next life. Or maybe aborted :D.

Hi Mel. In the Bible, in 1 John 1:9 it states, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Hundreds of millions of Catholics believe this much too!! But even when Jesus forgives us, we (our laws) don't forgive, and we still need to pay for those sins. However, since Jesus forgave Him, he's going to Heaven, because "once saved, forever saved!"
Why do you think he didn't confess and repent for his sin? You don't think that the thought of having to face Jesus would have made him want to come clean, before he would see Him? Mind you, this man was a minister! He knew the Word of God, or God's conditions. Jesus Himself said, "all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men!" --And then also mentioned which sin will not be forgiven! Read it yourself in the Gospel of Matthew, 12:31.

__________________________
"Salvation is of the Lord!"

--The Bible


And, dear Dreamweaver, reading over my reply to you, the last line should read, "yet, doesn't mean that I hate you or hold you in disregard. Sorry if you think that."[B]:mad:

Beneck, I notice you quote the Bible often and thus I infer that you believe it is God's word. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) This is a faulty view. The Bible was written by a man, and has been translated time and again into different languages. Humans are prone to error, and we do err often. Surely there are numerous errors in the Bible, don't you agree?

Originally posted by HaVoK
Im a christian. Did i criticize or condemn you? For that matter, have any christians on this forum done this to you? If they have, i must have missed that post.



I wasn't just referring to people on this forum HaVoK. Most people here are quite tolerant, but there are still some who want to convert people to Christianity even when they don't want to be.

I just resent anyone pushing their religion on me. I am happy to discuss it, but I don't believe in it or what the bible says. It is a nice book of stories, but I find it hard to believe them. If you do, then I am glad you have found the faith which works for you. I haven't found The Catholic faith very compassionate in my dealings with them, and maybe that is what has put me off.

It is a personal decision we all make, and some of us aren't happy with the Christian ideals or ways.

Cheers

Originally posted by Dreamweaver
I wasn't just referring to people on this forum HaVoK. Most people here are quite tolerant, but there are still some who want to convert people to Christianity even when they don't want to be.

I just resent anyone pushing their religion on me. I am happy to discuss it, but I don't believe in it or what the bible says. It is a nice book of stories, but I find it hard to believe them. If you do, then I am glad you have found the faith which works for you. I haven't found The Catholic faith very compassionate in my dealings with them, and maybe that is what has put me off.

It is a personal decision we all make, and some of us aren't happy with the Christian ideals or ways.

Cheers I couldnt agree with you more about people trying to cram their beliefs down our throat. I was just trying to point out that no one can just blindly categorize all christians as intolerant.

I also agree that what religion you follow (or not) is a personal choice that each and every one of us has the right to make. However, i do think that it is my job as a christian to at least make sure that people are exposed to the idea of God. If they do not accept it, then that is their choice.

Borghunter, I think your view of the Bible is way off. It's a faulty
view to state that the Bible was written by men. For those words did not ever come through the will of men: but the prophets had them from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit. I think the Dead Sea scrolls have enough proven that, though the Bible went through many translations, it's true, the text has remarkably stayed true to the original! And I don't agree that the Bible is full or errors. If there are errors recorded, they are usually human errors, not following God. Show me one error that God made in the Bible, will you?

_________________________________________
Statesmanship & diplomacy have failed. The only remedy is Jesus Christ. It is either Christ or Chaos.

David Lloyd George, former British Prime Minister

__________________________________________________ __
.....and some of us aren't happy with the Christian ideals or ways.
__________________________________________________ __

How about mentioning those ideals you're not happy with, Dreamweaver? Is the Bible maybe so hard to believe, not because you don't understand it, but you DO understand it?

________________________________________
It is the duty of the human understanding to understand that there are things which it cannot understand, and what those things are. Human understanding has vulgarly occupied itself with nothing but understanding, but if it would only take the trouble to understand itself at the same time it would simply have to posit the paradox.

Søren Kierkegaard

Beneck PLEASE don't think I'm being an a**, but I have to ask you a few questions.

#1 What was Jesus real name.

#2 When was Jesus really born.

#3 When did Jesus tell that he was the son of God.

#4 How old was Jesus when he died.

#5 Where are ANY of his remains or belongings.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but you asked for proof that the Bible is false, I'm asking for proof of the bible being true. See, you say there was a son of God, but yet there is No actual proof, heck no one even knows when his real birth date was. I'm not saying that Jesus did or did not exsist, but were is the proof. How come we have more proof from dinasours then we do from the son of God?

It would be very hard to prove the bible wrong to someone that believes in it so much. Plus the way one person looks at and interprets the bible is almost always different then another person. Look at the Gay bishop he see's nothing wrong with his life style, while you could take Billybob the priest from Virginia, he would say that the bishop will be going to hell. There are people on this forum that can't agree on the outcome of this murderer. Some say he is going to hell while others say he will be forgiven. Then there are those that think of him as a hero.

Beneck, How do you know that the text of the Bible has remained remarkably true to the original? We have no proof of that. Also, didn’t Governments usually translate the Bible? You don’t think they may have added and subtracted a few things to get the people to behave the way they wanted them too?

Mad Dog, Heres is a little information that I have in regards to your questions to Beneck. While there is evidence that a man by the name Jesus did in fact live, there is not much hard evidence that he was the son of god or that he died for our sins. Hopefully Beneck can provide more compelling evidence.

#1 What was Jesus real name?

There is historical evidence that a man named Jesus Christ lived, called Jesus of Nazareth. In a book written around 70 AD by Flavius Josephus, (a historian believed to be born 38 AD that accompanied Titus when he led the Roman Army against Jerusalem) called Jewish Antiquities he says:
“At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure….And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

#2 When was Jesus really born?

Nobody knows the exact date of Jesus’s birth. The Bible tells us that a census was being taken at the time of his birth, which is why Joseph and Mary had traveled to Bethlehem. Based on the believed date of that census some say he was born at 6 B.C.

#3 When did Jesus tell that he was the son of God?

The Bible says he began his Ministry around the age of 30.

#4 How old was Jesus when he died?

Again, nobody is sure the date of his death. He was believed to be 33 when he died, however there is no hard proof to that. Its based on information the Bible provides as to when he began his ministry.

#5 Where are ANY of his remains or belongings

I don’t know of any proof that any remains or belongings were ever found.

Real name: Yehoshuah of Nazareth. Jesus merely being a Greek translations of Yehoshuah
Born: 4BC. Sounds funny doesn't it? Well that is because MODERN scholars put it there. Originally in the Gregorian calendar it was the year 0. The year Jesus was born.
Son of God: see John 9:35-37 and John 10:36
How old when He died: About 33 years.
Where are any of His remains or belongings?
His belongings: I don't know. Do you? The Shroud of Turin could possibly be His burial cloth! I've heard (not seen) that the Vatican has possibly some of His belongings. (Just joking of course.) His remains see Acts 1:9
The best way to prove that Jesus is real is to try Him. Ask Him to come into your heart, and accept Him as your Saviour. THEN you will know He's real, and you don't need any further proof. "Blessed is he having not seen, yet he believes!"

Mel, the Dead Sea scrolls were found in 1947, after having been there for over 2000 years. When compared with the Old Testament that has been translated into so many languages by so many people, it was found that it was remarkably correct!--And it's not governments that translate Bibles, but usually scholarly people, that have an understanding of Hebrew and Greek, the languages the Old and New Testament have been written in. Of course it's always possible that "governments" translate the Bibles for their own purposes, or leave out pieces or add parts, however, the Bible is widespread enough in this world that anyone that translates it differently will be found out. For instance Luther in the 1500's translated the Bible into German. His translation may differ in parts (words basically) with the 1611 King James Version of the Bible, but that would rather be a matter of interpretation of what words mean, than really editing the Bible to say what you want it to say.
Of course I have no proof that someone in 1947 didn't write those scrolls and hid them there, and just pretended they were 2000 years old. (Scholars seem to be able to prove that they ARE 2000 years old!) However, there are lots of things in this world we've been told, and we've got to accept without really having an opportunity to check out "if it is so". I mean, I like history, and have a treatise by Julius Ceasar on some of his wars. However, how do I know that he really wrote it, and not some clerk in lets say the 1700's who didn't have anything better to do? I guess this is were belief comes in. I believe that the Dead Sea scrolls prove that the Bible translations have been very consistent and that we actually have the Word of God in the form He intended it to be.

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Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

Jude Jackson

The bible wasn't even compiled and 90% of it written until around 200A.D. By Constintine's government, just to let you know. There is the lost gospel of Thomas, it preaches what Jesus said, not what the other bibles interpret. You see, the new testament is a mixture of interpretation, and quotes. The two contradict each other.

About the "dead" sea scrolls. The name was translated wrong first of all. In reality it is the Reed sea scrolls. Reed sea being the sea that Moses supposidly split. The rest of them, first written information about Judism.

Shroud of Turin. Fake. Carbon dating has placed it to be far too young.

Beneck, I do actually like you. You are far more of a liberal Christian than most. You are actually one of the first people I have met that knew that Jesus was not his actual name. Even more so, knew what it was, all I knew was that it started with a Y.

Oh, about the census. I don't know if I have said this before(probably have), but Romans wouldn't do it that way. Far to crowded, too many people moving. They would never send them back to their home town. The part where he has to return to his father's town was placed in there so he would be born in the same town as the great David, as the scriptures fortold.

These scrolls are called DEAD Sea scrolls, because they were found in caves near Khirbat Qumrân in Jordan, at the northwestern end of the Dead Sea. The Red Sea you're mentioning is another Sea further south, and indeed the sea that Moses parted to leave Egypt to go to the Promised Land.

The Bible was maybe not compiled in the form it was now, but it was certainly all written! The Old Testament had been translated into Greek from Hebrew (on orders of the Jewish Highpriest) in about 280 BC. He used 70 scholars to do that, and basically this is the same old Testament that we have now in our Bible, in the same format etc. The New Testament Gospels and Letters were certainly all written before 100 AD, the last book being the Revelation, written by John the Apostle when he was in his 90s, and exiled to Patmos by the Romans. They were ALL known in as early as 200 AD! Their final form (not contents, but how to place the books in the NT) was decided in 350 AD or so by St. Athanasius. There has been indeed a Gospel of St. Thomas, as there have been many writings called Gospels, but because they were not deemed important, they were never included in the New Testament.
Although the Shroud of Turin has now been labelled "not real", I just want to point out that carbon dating is a very lousy way of dating anything, and it is often off by many hundreds on years in different readings.

And for those of you who always say that there's no proof outside the Bible of Jesus' excistance, how about the Jewish historian Josephus, in his "Antiquities of the Jews - Book" XVIII

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Love your neighbor as yourself!

Thankyou for your answers, and I think you helped me prove my point, there is NO real proof. Beneck thanks for the name it is one of the first times I have heard anyone claim to know the answer whether it be true or not??? As far as the age stuff I heard anything from he started preaching at the age of 28- 33, and that he died any where between 36- 44. I have heard even other age dates once again no proof. Proof of being the son of Good only in the Bible no where else. The biggest question of all "belongings", if we have the belongings of Egyptian mummies then why do we not have anything from the son of GOD(the creater himself). We have physical proof of many ancient civilizations and the beings they worshiped but where is the Son of God?

These scrolls are called DEAD Sea scrolls, because they were found in caves near Khirbat Qumrân in Jordan, at the northwestern end of the Dead Sea. The Red Sea you're mentioning is another Sea further south, and indeed the sea that Moses parted to leave Egypt to go to the Promised Land.
I thought they actually had a title. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. I did mean the Reed sea though, with the two "e"s. It doesn't exist anymore, the canal through Gaza strip drained it, I beleive, or that was another one... There was even a scientific reason of how Moses parted the water. If dated correctly, there was a huge volcano that erupted that sent massive waves throughout all of the Mediterannian sea.

I'm sorry, I missed some key details. I meant New Testament, although the Old Testament had been rewritten also(oh, I am getting much information from here (http://mystic.nazirene.org/SonOfGod.htm), another good page is here (http://www.the-gnosis-site.com/gnosis.htm)). Constintine converted to Christianity, and adapted the cross, at that time the early christians had never thought of using the cross, and stuck with the odd fish. Constintine had pieces of the bible rewritten so his throne wouldn't be in danger. The whole of the bible ended up being compiled and in latin only. For hundreds of years no peasant could read it(wouldn't of mattered anyways, it was off and still quite cruel to people). Martin Luther translated it, and then later we get the King James version(king, hmm, shouldn't that in itself be suspicious). Carbon dating only gets iffy when something is more than 10,000 years old. Then exact centuries hardly matter anyways. Also, the shroud looked more to be painted. Traces of blood were on there, but how the look of the person would be copied onto it is impossible, they tried it, again and again.

And for those of you who always say that there's no proof outside the Bible of Jesus' excistance, how about the Jewish historian Josephus, in his "Antiquities of the Jews - Book" XVIII
Haven't heard of it, I'll look it up.

We have physical proof of many ancient civilizations and the beings they worshiped but where is the Son of God?
True, hell, we even have some body pieces of some of the first saints.

DID YOU SEE THOSE FREAKS THAT HAD SIGNS PRAISING WHAT THAT ASSHOLE DID? MAKES ME WANT TO "VOMIT WITH RAGE!" They give Christians a bad name that's for sure!

What did you expect for when you prayed? I think that praying is just a way to communicate with God, or whomever you believe in, not like asking Santa Clause what you want for Christmas. If you were Christian and didn't get anything from it, would you think of trying any other religion? Say buddhism, etc.? I'm not trying to bash you, I just wondered why you gave up on religion as a whole?

Dear Mad Dog: "They that worship Him (God, Jesus) must worship Him in Spirit, for God is a Spirit!" Try it. "More blessed are they having not seen, yet believed!"

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The greatest proof of the Creator is His creation! (By the way it wasn't the THEORY of Evolution that created things, or made them better!) In the beginning GOD created Heaven & Earth etc etc.

Dear Blibblob,

As far as for nitty-gritty: The latin version of the Bible was translated by Jerome at the request of Pope Damasus I in 382 AD. I don't know why you think Constantine had something to do with the translations. The man only got baptised a few weeks before his death in 337 AD. The guy, Christina or not, was presiding over the Council of Nicaea in 325, where they made a bunch of decisions, but not about translating the Bible according to his wishes. It seems that most sources that I consulted agree that of the NEW Testament this was the first translation. As far as "King" James having anything to do with the Bible, and it therefor being funny: the man happened to be King of England and gave to many scholars the instruction to translate the Bible into English. When these guys were done in 1611, the dedicated the Bible to King James, not because he had worked on it, but because he was the one that gave the original order to translate the Book. And by the way, he believed in the Bible, something I can't say for everyone reading and writing on these pages!

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There are none so blind as those that don't want to see!

Jude Jackson

Is everyone gone fishing? No more answers or questions???:o :o

Harlowgirl83 who are you asking????

Beneck I am glad that you have such a faith and I'm glad that you believe totally. You came after many of our other post about religion and seem to be a good hearted person. I have had many discussions with Havok(and others) on religion and like you, he gave the best answer I have ever heard "religion is in the heart". I hope you did not take offence with my questions, I just find religion (religions) interesting.

Hey Mad Dog, of course I didn't take offense with any of your questions. You came to the right conclusion, and that's all that matters. I find religion also interesting, and believe it or not, even
some religions other than my own, however, definitely not all of them.
I guess this might just be the end of this "presbyterian Minister" part, whatdoyathink?
Have a nice weekend.
Beneck

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It is futile to judge a kind deed by its motives. Kindness can become its own motive. We are made kind by being kind. -- Eric Hoffer

Well he seems to think he did the right thing, I quess his God will be the judge of that. If he believes he did the right thing then shouldn't his God forgive him, or even praise him? Like I have said in other post some people look at him like a hero? Especially when you talk about the unborn like it is a child, no one wants to see children hurt.