The Chairman Says (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1152AP_Military_Gays.html?source=mypi)


Gen. Pace calls homosexuality immoral



WASHINGTON -- The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said Monday he considers homosexuality to be immoral and the military should not condone it by allowing gay personnel to serve openly, the Chicago Tribune reported.
Marine Gen. Peter Pace likened homosexuality to adultery, which he said was also immoral, the newspaper reported on its Web site.
"I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way," Pace told the newspaper in a wide-ranging interview.
Pace, a native of Brooklyn, N.Y., and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said he based his views on his upbringing.
He said he supports the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell policy" in which gay men and women are allowed in the military as long as they keep their sexual orientation private. The policy, signed into law by President Clinton in 1994, prohibits commanders from asking about a person's sexual orientation.
"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said.
The newspaper said Pace did not address concerns raised by a 2005 government audit that showed some 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged because of the policy.
With Democrats in charge of Congress, Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., has introduced legislation to reverse the military's ban on openly serving homosexuals.

***

Chances are they can catch bullets as well as anyone else - from the enemy in front as well as behind.

es, could ou tell us, in what context did the General bring this issue up.

Having openly gay people in the military is NOT a good idea. They would have to be treated differently than everyone else. And I can only imagine the huge slew of issues that would come up if it were allowed. If they are gay, and they can keep it to themselves, then so be it. But openly gay in the military just doesnt work. I mean im pro gay rights and all, but there are some things that dont work.

Having openly gay people in the military is NOT a good idea. They would have to be treated differently than everyone else.

How would they need to be treated differently?


And I can only imagine the huge slew of issues that would come up if it were allowed. If they are gay, and they can keep it to themselves, then so be it. But openly gay in the military just doesnt work. I mean im pro gay rights and all, but there are some things that dont work.

Can you elaborate on why you think it wouldn't work?

"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said.
What's that Gen. Pace? Homosexual acts between 3 or more individuals are not immoral?

Prae is going to have fun downtown tonight.

The good General's logic is good as far as it goes; the army has no business supporting immorality.

There are two issues, however, that he didn't address: where does he get off deciding what is moral and what isn't. He is a military man; civilians make such decisions.

The second is where does it come that being tolerant is "supporting?"

How would they need to be treated differently?

Well lets put it this way: Im a single soldier living in the barracks. Would you feel comfortable having an openly homosexual as a roomate? No, you probably wouldnt, and neither would most other people. Would they get seperate rooms? Would it be a problem in the workplace enviroment? I think that it may cause problems with most. And you cant really afford to have any more dissention among the ranks than there already is sometimes. Its the same with letting fellons in the Army. Its just a bad idea in my opinion.

However biggoted it may sound, I dont mean it that way from a personal standpoint. Just with the Army being the orgonization that it is, some things just do not work. I think that you have to make some consessions if you choose to be openly gay, and its unfortunate, but thats just the way the world is.

Would you feel comfortable having an openly homosexual as a roommate? No, you probably wouldn't.

Speak for yourself.

I would have no problems whatsoever, even if he made advances. It is easy to say no, and very few would press it.

The only "adjustment" that would be needed would be for officers to make it clear that this is the way it is and live with it. Soldiers hear that often anyway and know how to get on with their business.

Well lets put it this way: Im a single soldier living in the barracks. Would you feel comfortable having an openly homosexual as a roomate?

Considering the fact that I'm gay, I doubt it would bother me much.


No, you probably wouldnt, and neither would most other people. Would they get seperate rooms? Would it be a problem in the workplace enviroment? I think that it may cause problems with most. And you cant really afford to have any more dissention among the ranks than there already is sometimes. Its the same with letting fellons in the Army. Its just a bad idea in my opinion.

However biggoted it may sound, I dont mean it that way from a personal standpoint. Just with the Army being the orgonization that it is, some things just do not work. I think that you have to make some consessions if you choose to be openly gay, and its unfortunate, but thats just the way the world is.

I think whatever rules are in place regarding heterosexual conduct or unwanted sexual advances could be applied to gays as well.

The same objections were raised by the British military establishment regarding allowing gays to serve openly, and when they were forced to allow gays to serve openly by the EU court, they discovered that their fears were unfounded. They are now actively recruiting gays to serve in their military.

Get rid of all the gays in the military and you won't have a Navy anymore...


Zing!
:)

They are now actively recruiting gays to serve in their military.

http://www.militaryfairy.co.uk/camping-it-up.jpg

Considering the fact that I'm gay, I doubt it would bother me much.

I think whatever rules are in place regarding heterosexual conduct or unwanted sexual advances could be applied to gays as well.

Ok, well since you are the statement doesnt really apply to you.

I think that if I were to have an openly gay roomate, it would not be a problem for me. If he were to make advances however , it would be a different story. And to be honest, I think most people in the military would not be open to having an openly gay co-worker, let alone a roomate. At least that is the concensus that I come to, its been discused on numerous occasions.

I would consider myself to be pretty liberal when it comes to gay rights and such. I had two openly gay people that I worked with before I joined the Army. They were good people, and I treated them no differently than anyone else. That was in a totally different enviroment however. I wont say most, but a lot of people would not simply except gays being side by side with them. And this friction would cause problems, especially when it is a matter of life and death in the Army. I would except, but I would be an exception among most of my peers, or so it would seem.

Also, dont you think making rules and concessions and such specifically for gay people would be a form of discrimination?

Well lets put it this way: Im a single soldier living in the barracks. Would you feel comfortable having an openly homosexual as a roomate? No, you probably wouldnt, and neither would most other people. Would they get seperate rooms? Would it be a problem in the workplace enviroment? I think that it may cause problems with most. And you cant really afford to have any more dissention among the ranks than there already is sometimes. Its the same with letting fellons in the Army. Its just a bad idea in my opinion.

However biggoted it may sound, I dont mean it that way from a personal standpoint. Just with the Army being the orgonization that it is, some things just do not work. I think that you have to make some consessions if you choose to be openly gay, and its unfortunate, but thats just the way the world is.

What you are saying sounds very similair to what was said about having racial integration in the military. Many white officers resigned when Harry Truman ordered that, and many enlisted men quit as well. There was turmoil at the time. It faded as it became apparent that all races were equally capable of doing the job.
I am sure that you realize you probably live right now with gay men in your unit. They have always been there. When I was in the military, one of my roomates was gay. It caused no problems. Most of the others in the unit did not know about that. The problem is one of prejudice on the part of many soldiers. That tends to fade with familiarity, and with serving together under difficult conditions and finding that the people you are prejudiced against serve well, and do the job as well as anyone else.

What you are saying sounds very similair to what was said about having racial integration in the military. Many white officers resigned when Harry Truman ordered that, and many enlisted men quit as well. There was turmoil at the time. It faded as it became apparent that all races were equally capable of doing the job.
I am sure that you realize you probably live right now with gay men in your unit. They have always been there. When I was in the military, one of my roomates was gay. It caused no problems. Most of the others in the unit did not know about that. The problem is one of prejudice on the part of many soldiers. That tends to fade with familiarity, and with serving together under difficult conditions and finding that the people you are prejudiced against serve well, and do the job as well as anyone else.

I fully understand where you are comming from. But following my second statement, I am pro gay rights. I am just stating what it is that I believe the current situation to be, from the inside. And yes, I know that there are more than likely gay men in my unit. I have no problem with this because no matter what some think, it does not inhibit their ability to do their jobs. Many do not see it that way unfortunately.

Oh yeah PS, this all applies to homosexual females as well as males by the way.

I fully understand where you are comming from. But following my second statement, I am pro gay rights. I am just stating what it is that I believe the current situation to be, from the inside. And yes, I know that there are more than likely gay men in my unit. I have no problem with this because no matter what some think, it does not inhibit their ability to do their jobs. Many do not see it that way unfortunately.

Oh yeah PS, this all applies to homosexual females as well as males by the way.

I also understand where you are coming from. I also served with people who were prejudiced. It was amusing to see people who were friends with my roomate, but who hated gay people and would never tolerate someone like that in the unit.
The soldiers who could never fit in are already there. The problem is indeed that some will not accept them if they know. Perhaps the best solution is what one of my old drill seargents said at the start of basic training. "There aint no white soldiers here, and there aint no black soldiers either. There are only Army green soldiers. If you can't handle that, you better get with the program."

I agree with phyrex. The army has been fine up to now, stop using it as a social experiment. IF you are gay and want to go in just dont say you are gay, thats the way it has been done and it works fine.If it aint broke dont fix it. Besides, they dont let women in the combat units, and some of the gay men I have known were closer to women then men anyway.

http://www.militaryfairy.co.uk/camping-it-up.jpg


LMAO :D
Obviously European

I also understand where you are coming from. I also served with people who were prejudiced. It was amusing to see people who were friends with my roomate, but who hated gay people and would never tolerate someone like that in the unit.
The soldiers who could never fit in are already there. The problem is indeed that some will not accept them if they know. Perhaps the best solution is what one of my old drill seargents said at the start of basic training. "There aint no white soldiers here, and there aint no black soldiers either. There are only Army green soldiers. If you can't handle that, you better get with the program."
""There aint no white soldiers here, and there aint no black soldiers either. There are only Army green soldiers. If you can't handle that, you better get with the program."

LOL... reminds me of an old joke, if followed by this punchline:

"Now all you light green ones to the front and all you dark green ones to the rear!"

I agree with phyrex. The army has been fine up to now, stop using it as a social experiment. IF you are gay and want to go in just dont say you are gay, thats the way it has been done and it works fine.If it aint broke dont fix it. Besides, they dont let women in the combat units, and some of the gay men I have known were closer to women then men anyway.

Well, thats not quite what I was saying. Its more like, if someone were to be OPENLY gay in the military, should they be accepted. i was saying yes. But I mean the choice is still the persons if they want to be openly gay or not, but if they choose to be openly so, there should be no difference in their treatment. But yeah, dont ask dont tell works fine its true. But again, its about openly gay people being accepted.

Light green, dark green and now pink.

Well, thats not quite what I was saying. Its more like, if someone were to be OPENLY gay in the military, should they be accepted. i was saying yes. But I mean the choice is still the persons if they want to be openly gay or not, but if they chose to be openly so, there should be no difference in their treatment. But yeah, dont ask dont tell works fine its true. But again, its about openly gay people being accepted.

no its not about openly gay people being accepted, its about unit cohesion and esprit de corp. acceptance is not high on the list of things the army strives for, nor should it be. lots of soldiers are made to feel excluded and belittled for a multitude of reasons, a gay soldier shouldnt be the exception. if your gay and get riduculed deal with it, same thing for the guy who gets shit because he keeps falling out of runs. smae thing for the UMOP.

no its not about openly gay people being accepted, its about unit cohesion and esprit de corp. acceptance is not high on the list of things the army strives for, nor should it be. lots of soldiers are made to feel excluded and belittled for a multitude of reasons, a gay soldier shouldnt be the exception. if your gay and get riduculed deal with it, same thing for the guy who gets shit because he keeps falling out of runs. smae thing for the UMOP.

I agree. But there is a difference between a gay person and someone who falls out of runs all the time in my opinion, they are two completely different things. Its easy for people to deal with a fatbody who cant keep up in a run, you simply PT him into the ground untill he can, and he cant complain about it either. But how are you supposed to deal with a gay soldier who goes to his commanding officer and says "sir, I am being discriminated against because I am gay, I wish to file a complaint" I mean that is a legitimate complaint if you ask me. And Im willing to bet that the Army doesnt want to deal with that.

you would file his complaint along with all the other guys who file complaints about being picked on, which are probably none.

When a complaint of discrimination is made, it is investigated. I participated in many over the years, both of a racial nature and those of a sexist nature. In the absence of concrete facts, both are incredibly hard to prove, so in essence the one feeling discriminated against has to buck up & deal with it.

I cant imagine anyone filing a complaint about anything in the army. Talk about a waste of time. I went to sick call once for flu and the doctor gave me some Motrin and told me to stop smoking. I never went again.

I cant imagine anyone filing a complaint about anything in the army. Talk about a waste of time. I went to sick call once for flu and the doctor gave me some Motrin and told me to stop smoking. I never went again.

When the military started opening substance abuse rehabilitation clinics in the early 1970's, they quickly became complaint centers for racist and sexist issues. It was a learning time for all. Traditional male units suddenly had to contend with the issues young females bring to the table and the turmoil of the times brought blacks to the table screaming about everything. Shortly thereafter, with the sexual revolution in full swing, the homosexuals (real & imagined) began presenting themselves to their commanders, primarily seeking discharges for their "conditions". At the time, a full psychiatric workup (clinical interviews & psychological testing) were required to establish if the individual was simply crazy or actually homosexual. As there is no test, medical or psychological that will prove or disprove the existence of homosexuality a tremendous amount of time and talent was wasted on those individuals, most of whom received discharges for inability to adapt. At that time, homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder, virtually in the same category as schizophrenia.

couldnt they have just brought out some guy with a big **** and tell the guy to bend over? I bet that would seperate the real gays from the fakers real quick :D

LMAO :D
Obviously European

The British Second Amoured Division. i.e. Monty Python.

"I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said.
Killing people and screwing prostitutes however...

So how long before Pace gets caught with a private in his privates?

Why would I worry just because the next guy is a homosexual? I don't like homosexuality, so I'd just refuse any advances. Just as I've always done. No problem.
If you're in the Armed Forces you learn to get on with many different types of thinking, and I can think of many worse.

yea, most all gay men I know or have met, just get on with life when they know im strait, its like hitting on a woman, once you know shes gy, you move on.

Its easy for people to deal with a fatbody who cant keep up in a run.
"What's your name fatbody?"

And of course the best line of the movie: "Bullshit! I bet you could suck a golf ball through a garden hose."

When a complaint of discrimination is made, it is investigated. I participated in many over the years, both of a racial nature and those of a sexist nature. In the absence of concrete facts, both are incredibly hard to prove, so in essence the one feeling discriminated against has to buck up & deal with it.
They are not hard to prove if there are several people complaining. When it is a solitary charge, what are they going to do, since it becomes one person's word aganst another.

"What's your name fatbody?"

And of course the best line of the movie: "Bullshit! I bet you could suck a golf ball through a garden hose."

I prefer "If God wanted you up that obstacle he woulda miricled your ass up there by now!"

I like the idea of a mass murderer telling people that consenting sex is immoral.

I like the idea of a mass murderer telling you to STFU

How is the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff a mass murderer?

I guess anyone is a uniform is a mass murderer to this guy. I doubt the joint chief has been on many patrols or raids into Anbar province. Hell, the guy probably only picks up a rifle twice a year to qualify.