Awwwwwww (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17583200/)


SAN FRANCISCO - In just about any other place, the sight of a man and woman pushing a stroller would be welcomed as a sign of stability and safety. In San Francisco's heavily gay Castro District, some people can't help but think: There goes the neighborhood.
Gay leaders in the Castro and other gay neighborhoods around the country fear their enclaves are losing their distinct identities.

" ... "What makes these neighborhoods gay? Not much," he concluded. "

Besides the brigades of baby strollers in the Castro, ominous signs include the security gates installed last year by a hotel to discourage "cruising," and the recent closing of a store that sold erotic leather gear. National chains like Pottery Barn and Diesel now occupy prominent Castro locations.
In addition, a sex toys shop that had posters from gay porn movies in the window and an antiques store that had a naked male statue were asked last year to tone down their displays. They grudgingly obliged.

Several nonprofit agencies serving the gay community in the Castro have also moved out because of rising rents. ...
"When I see a stroller now, I see it as someone who evicted a person with AIDS, right or wrong," said longtime community leader Brian Basinger, president of the Harvey Milk Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transsexual Democratic Club.

... "We have Chinatown and Japantown and so forth, and that's important for minority communities in this country, to have a place where they can get a sense of being the majority," said Joe Curtin, an architect who serves as president of Castro Area Planning Action. "But if you took those away, you would still have China and Japan. If the Castro goes away as a gay neighborhood, there is nowhere else."


Doesn't your heart go "pitter-patter"? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17583200/page/2/)

"When I see a stroller now, I see it as someone who evicted a person with AIDS, right or wrong," said longtime community leader Brian Basinger, president of the Harvey Milk Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transsexual Democratic Club. "When I see a Lesbian now, I see it as someone who evicted my penis from their vagina, right or wrong"

That guy is a moron. Gentrification is lame BS that should be stopped, however blaming it on straights is lame...

" ... "What makes these neighborhoods gay? Not much," he concluded. "
I have to wonder why a group pining for equal rights whines when their enclaves are invaded by the norm.

Sure, losing the sex toy shops is a sign of the apocalypse, but with Pottery Barns moving in the gays should be praising this as the Second Coming of Jesus.
Gentrification is lame BS that should be stopped
Give me 5 good reasons.

Homosexuals are delicate creatures seemingly deserving of special treatment. Why on earth would normal heterosexual couples dare to disturb their enclave? Replacing tawdry sex shops with Pottery Barns and Pier Ones? Shameful. Next will be closing of the public baths.

Give me 5 good reasons.
It displaces those who improved the neighborhood.
Therefore, it inherently promotes 'slums.'
Poor people don't have money to move.
Because I said so.
So there.

hahahhaa, that article is so full of bullshit. The Castro still is very much a gay area - they have gay bars EVERYWHERE for starters. The major thing that you notice there though, is people who are gay. That's what makes the neighborhood distinct more than anything. It's rare to see a guy and girl who are more than friends in the Castro.

Homosexuals are delicate creatures seemingly deserving of special treatment. Why on earth would normal heterosexual couples dare to disturb their enclave? Replacing tawdry sex shops with Pottery Barns and Pier Ones? Shameful. Next will be closing of the public baths.
Phffft! what hetrosexual male would be caught dead in Pottery Barns and Pier Ones?

Homosexuals are delicate creatures seemingly deserving of special treatment. Why on earth would normal heterosexual couples dare to disturb their enclave? Replacing tawdry sex shops with Pottery Barns and Pier Ones? Shameful. Next will be closing of the public baths.
ES, stop saying "special treatment" in relation to homosexuals. It's neither funny, nor even a decent point.

It displaces those who improved the neighborhood.

Gentrification is the improvement of a neighborhood. How do the people improving the neighborhood displace themselves?

Therefore, it inherently promotes 'slums.'
Poor people don't have money to move.

The poor people in these neighborhoods are already living in slums. Why you wish them to remain there is beyond me.

ES, stop saying "special treatment" in relation to homosexuals. It's neither funny, nor even a decent point.

Fuck off

Fuck off
i'll hazard a guess that you mean "no"?

Gentrification is the improvement of a neighborhood. How do the people improving the neighborhood displace themselves?



The poor people in these neighborhoods are already living in slums. Why you wish them to remain there is beyond me.
Gentrification is the taking over of a neighborhood made hip and trendy by poor folk, by people with money seeking to find coolness by living there. They kill the atmosphere simply by being there, and all the cool people move on.

Main Entry: gen·tri·fi·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "jen-tr&-f&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: the process of renewal and rebuilding accompanying the influx of middle-class or affluent people into deteriorating areas that often displaces earlier usually poorer residents

Homosexuals are delicate creatures seemingly deserving of special treatment. Why on earth would normal heterosexual couples dare to disturb their enclave? Replacing tawdry sex shops with Pottery Barns and Pier Ones? Shameful. Next will be closing of the public baths.

What stops homosexuals from simply blending into a neighborhood? If they want to be viewed as just otherwise normal folks with a different sexual orientation, then why all the drama? Does everyone need to be aware that George down the street prefers tight assed Wranglers on young men rather than young women? Why is it that shortly into almost any conversation with a homosexual must the issue of sexual preference be tossed out there to be dealt with, even if the conversation is about which lumber is to be selected for a deck when down at the local Home Depot? Keep your private activities just that: private. Is the concept of TMI so alien? STFU!!!

The poor people in these neighborhoods are already living in slums. Why you wish them to remain there is beyond me. right so when the people get togather and clean up their neighborhood by: volunteering to remove graffitti, planting community gardens, organizing community events, picking up trash, improving the neighborhood in general...they are in fact making it a better place to live, which means the soul less landlords can then raise the rent and the yuppies invade. Therefore gentrification promotes slums because if they do put their own time and effort into fixing up the neighborhood they will be rewarded by being kicked out by higher rent.

What stops homosexuals from simply blending into a neighborhood? If they want to be viewed as just otherwise normal folks with a different sexual orientation, then why all the drama? Does everyone need to be aware that George down the street prefers tight assed Wranglers on young men rather than young women? Why is it that shortly into almost any conversation with a homosexual must the issue of sexual preference be tossed out there to be dealt with, even if the conversation is about which lumber is to be selected for a deck when down at the local Home Depot? Keep your private activities just that: private. Is the concept of TMI so alien? STFU!!!

It amazes me that people like you are so blind to basic human feelings unless it effects them. People do not want to have to lie to their neighbors about their partner, or to have to invent girlfriends and so on.

I would say your recollection is of those homosexuals who tell you. Those who don't pass unnoticed. Therefore you should not generalize from that sort of experience. Most people have few encounters with overt homosexuals anyway: it surprises me that you seem to have so many as to represent a statistically valid sample.

That aside, there is legal discrimination inherent in the marriage assumption, dealing with taxation, property ownership, inheritance, social security and other pensions, health insurance, military service, adoption, even tickets for admission to the National Parks (a wife can get in on the husband's season ticket).

There is also civil discrimination. I remember a heated argument in my company where a chap was being considered for status as an "officer" of the company--most companies have three levels, "non-exempt" (for most employees), "exempt" (for professional employees) and "officers" for the top management.

The conversation centered around whether it was a good idea to have a homosexual as an officer in the company. Now it came as news to me that he was a homosexual--he certainly had left no clues with me, and we had taken a couple of trips together to Germany, so he was certainly no embarrassment. Well, it was decided to play it safe and not promote him, although you can guess how I argued.

This sort of thing is common. Homosexuals know it, and want to broadcast their message so as to hopefully educate a few people.

Fuck off

Same to you ES, and take your "delicate creatures" remark and shove it. I don't know what your problem is lately, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd suggest laying off the booze a bit. Your "special treatment" remarks, and "that's so gay" comments are just tiresome.

Main Entry: gen·tri·fi·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "jen-tr&-f&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: the process of renewal and rebuilding accompanying the influx of middle-class or affluent people into deteriorating areas that often displaces earlier usually poorer residents
Probably written by WASPs.

Same to you ES, and take your "delicate creatures" remark and shove it. I don't know what your problem is lately, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd suggest laying off the booze a bit. Your "special treatment" remarks, and "that's so gay" comments are just tiresome.

Awwww.

I feel no reason to explain or justify any remarks made. They are quite clear. As for your attempt to " ... hazard a guess ... ", as with most assumptions it is in error.

Fuck off
It's not even noon yet. I'll keep my pants on thank you very much.

I also like how this turned into a debate about gentrification.

right so when the people get togather and clean up their neighborhood by: volunteering to remove graffitti, planting community gardens, organizing community events, picking up trash, improving the neighborhood in general...they are in fact making it a better place to live, which means the soul less landlords can then raise the rent and the yuppies invade. Therefore gentrification promotes slums because if they do put their own time and effort into fixing up the neighborhood they will be rewarded by being kicked out by higher rent.

You live in a fantasy world where people who live in slums clean them up and make them better on their own. The reality is that slums are slums because the people that live there don't care. They don't become gentrified until people move in from the outside and clean things up.

Probably written by WASPs.
why would you think that WASPs dominate the language named after them?:rolleyes:

You live in a fantasy world where people who live in slums clean them up and make them better on their own. The reality is that slums are slums because the people that live there don't care. They don't become gentrified until people move in from the outside and clean things up.

First of all, I wouldn't characterize the Castro district as a slum. Yes, it's an old neighborhood, and some parts are a bit run down, but it's certainly not a slum. The fact is, it's comfortable and hip and happening, and just fine the way it is (or was, as the case may be).

I wonder, have any of you spent any time in the Castro? I have. Rather a lot, actually. The thought of shiny new Pottery Barns taking up residence there makes me sad, both for the neighborhood (which will change dramatically with their presence) and for the people who call the Castro home.

You live in a fantasy world where people who live in slums clean them up and make them better on their own. The reality is that slums are slums because the people that live there don't care. They don't become gentrified until people move in from the outside and clean things up. Bullshit. Slums are slums because people feel powerless to change things on their own. All it take is someone to organize the neighborhood. You're the delusional one thinking people with money move into slums to 'clean them up.' People with money by a nice house where they want to live, not where they have to fix the whole neighborhood.

Bullshit. Slums are slums because people feel powerless to change things on their own. All it take is someone to organize the neighborhood. You're the delusional one thinking people with money move into slums to 'clean them up.' People with money by a nice house where they want to live, not where they have to fix the whole neighborhood.

It takes money, lots of money and foresight to reclaim a slum and produce a viable neighborhood. Money and construction move undesireables from the property, creating another slum elsewhere. Eventually that one gets bought out and reclaimed as well. It's a circular progression. Eventually all the truly undesireables - queers, hookers, their misugided partners, along with various wannabe gangsters - wind up in single wide trailer parks in Arkansas & Louisiana awaiting thier turn at either Maury Povich or Jerry Springer.

First of all, I wouldn't characterize the Castro district as a slum.

Our little side conversation wasn't really about Castro.

why would you think that WASPs dominate the language named after them?:rolleyes:
So? Simply because the dictionary says something doesn't mean that that's all there is to say on the matter. English isn't even English anymore, it's a mish-mash of hundreds of different languages.

"We don't just borrow words. On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary". (James D. Nicoll)

So? Simply because the dictionary says something doesn't mean that that's all there is to say on the matter. English isn't even English anymore, it's a mish-mash of hundreds of different languages.

"We don't just borrow words. On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary". (James D. Nicoll)
you left out the best part-""English is as pure as a crib house whore..."

English isn't even English anymore, it's a mish-mash of hundreds of different languages.
Let's see, we've influences from...German, French, Latin...

Perhaps you can name 200 more to tell me of this hundreds of languages mishmashed.

Slums are slums because people feel powerless to change things on their own.
That's it! People commit terrible crimes because they're powerless! It all makes sense now.

In fact, so much sense that I will no longer question the people who piss in elevators and rob grannies of their church donations.
You're the delusional one thinking people with money move into slums to 'clean them up.'
That is what gentrification is.

Alex, I'll take the "Guerilla is an idiot" for 300.

Bullshit. Slums are slums because people feel powerless to change things on their own. All it take is someone to organize the neighborhood. You're the delusional one thinking people with money move into slums to 'clean them up.' People with money by a nice house where they want to live, not where they have to fix the whole neighborhood.

I think this is incorrect; slums stay slums. It may be apathy, or ignorance, or just different upbringing, but slum tenants can be given the cleanest, best maintained building in the world and they will wreck it. Ask any landlord who has experimented with renting good property to rent-subsidized tenants.

Gentrification happens when others move into a neighborhood and move the slum dwellers out. There is a tendency for investors to look for neighborhoods where this is happening, buy the homes, gut them and then resell them to new owners.

It is not a perfect world and there are some people with real attitude problems in it. Sometimes people are poor because of bad luck, but generally there are more basic reasons, at least in rich countries.

This is not a judgment, but an observation of fact. In spite of their behavior, they are still entitled to equal opportunity. You can't cure the disease if you have the wrong diagnosis.

you left out the best part-""English is as pure as a crib house whore..."

The English vocabulary list (words to learn to speak well) is three times the size of most. We have at least two words for almost everything--one of German (Frisian) origin and one of Norman French origin. Of course they have subtly different meaning--i.e., "door" and "portal," but it is an effective doubling.

Another thing is that English has never had any tendency to set up any sort of academy, like the French or Spanish, to keep the language "pure." (Actually the Spanish academy serves a useful purpose, since they officially change word spellings to keep up with pronunciation evolution--thereby keeping Spanish much more phonetic than any other European language).

This vocabulary adds a precision to English expression, as well as an ability to be imprecise, that most languages lack.

English is also shoving its vocabulary onto other languages, as well as steadily taking words from them. One time I sat down with a linguist friend and we came up with several dozen English words that are almost universal now. "Internet" was one of them.

The English vocabulary list (words to learn to speak well) is three times the size of most. We have at least two words for almost everything--one of German (Frisian) origin and one of Norman French origin. Of course they have subtly different meaning--i.e., "door" and "portal," but it is an effective doubling.
Portal is Latin. :O

Portal is Latin. :O

Ok, wiseguy, English did not begin borrowing from Latin directly until quite a bit later, and then only scholarly coinages.

"Portal" came into English through Norman French, which got it from Old French, which came from "Vulgar" Latin, which came from Latin.

Most dictionaries may only list the ultimate Latin source, but most Latin words in English came in with the Norman conquest.

OK. I suppose the problem here is that we are both right. Which is the problem with making gross generlaizations. There are 'slummy' tenants and there are 'slummy' landlords. There are people who live in the neighborhood and organize clean ups (without money etc) and there are investors to put money into areas in an attempt to clean them up. Both situations happen. Money cleaning up a slum I have no problem with. I have a problem when the people living in an area make an effort to make where they live a better place and oppurtunistic landlords kick them out because of it.

OK. I suppose the problem here is that we are both right. Which is the problem with making gross generalizations.

I would like to recount a true story that I think may illustrate the complexity of the issues involved. It is only an anecdote, so not a representative sample, but still informative.

When my wife and I lived in Kansas City, there was a woman who lived next door to us who had come into a piece of ghetto property through a divorce. She was as idealistic as you could hope for, and spent a lot of money maintaining the place and so on. She even paved the driveways with cement rather than asphalt (not cheap).

After a couple of years of struggle; with tenants not paying rent and destroying things; with crimes and dealings with the police; and so on, she finally gave up and sold the property at a sizable loss to an elderly African-American couple.

They immediately evicted all the tenants and moved in others (just as poor), and made a go of the property. It is obvious Megan's (our neighbor's) problem was cultural. She didn't have the skill to "read" potential tenants, while the African-American couple did, and, because of Megan's investments, could choose whom they wanted.

There are some who will never get out of poverty because they create it. There are others who will.

This is the best discussion I've seen you participate in yet, Thislin. Gives me hope for you. As for your neighbor, well, white people have the distinction of being perfectly willing to pay thousands of their hard-earned dollars for lessons they could have learned for ten bucks in a bar.

The English vocabulary list (words to learn to speak well) is three times the size of most. We have at least two words for almost everything--one of German (Frisian) origin and one of Norman French origin. Of course they have subtly different meaning--i.e., "door" and "portal," but it is an effective doubling.

Another thing is that English has never had any tendency to set up any sort of academy, like the French or Spanish, to keep the language "pure." (Actually the Spanish academy serves a useful purpose, since they officially change word spellings to keep up with pronunciation evolution--thereby keeping Spanish much more phonetic than any other European language).

This vocabulary adds a precision to English expression, as well as an ability to be imprecise, that most languages lack.

English is also shoving its vocabulary onto other languages, as well as steadily taking words from them. One time I sat down with a linguist friend and we came up with several dozen English words that are almost universal now. "Internet" was one of them.
All very true. I find studying languages very interesting. Since my second language is Spanish, I can attest that your comparisons are perfectly accurate. I was amazed by how easy Spanish was in that if you can spell something, you can pronounce it, and if you can pronounce something, you can spell it. Of course the official academy of Spanish doesn't allow slang words into the dictionaries until they've been in widespread use for a very long time, so often there were words I could never understand because they weren't in the dictionary and there really wasn't any sufficient explanation for them that anyone could give me.

Bullshit. Slums are slums because people feel powerless to change things on their own. All it take is someone to organize the neighborhood. You're the delusional one thinking people with money move into slums to 'clean them up.'
Ladies and Gentlemen...

I give you Liberalism in a nutshell.