Illegals have found another excuse for not not being held accountable for breaking the law: children.
Well, tough luck. They should have considered that before breaking our laws.
SEND THEM ALL BACK to their country of origin, minor children as well.:upyours:

Which country of origin are you from Crusty.

I expect that in coming years the issue of automatic citizenship merely because of being born in the U.S. will be a topic of debate. There are a great many "citizen" children here of illegal immigrant parents.

The United States of America, the country that the rest of the world wants to emulate, or occupy.

FIRST, the border must be closed. Sealed. Let would-be illegals know that the free ride is officially over, dammit.

AFTER the border is closed, then we can work on what to do with the illegal alien population in this country.

The United States of America, the country that the rest of the world wants to emulate, or occupy.
What are you joking or something, theres countrys with much better lifestyles than the US out there, believe me.

What are you joking or something, theres countrys with much better lifestyles than the US out there, believe me.


Name one, that is not emulating the USA, or does not have citizens willing to die to get into the US.

Name one, try every country in Western Europe, thro in Australia, New Zealand and if I thought for awhile longer I could name a few more.
Your fucking joking,right.

Your fucking joking,right.

Don't ever assume that paul, no matter what you hear an American say. :)

OK Crusty, your not joking. I will give credit were its due. The USA as a concept is the best country on the planet, and to this day is a shining light to millions of people, but youll find that the majority of immigrants these days come from third world countrys,they have replaced the poor and persecuted of Europe, as that continent has changed drastically in the last 30-40 years, but as for lifestyles, like I said, theres a lot of better places to live.

Name one, try every country in Western Europe, thro in Australia, New Zealand and if I thought for awhile longer I could name a few more.
Your fucking joking,right.
McDonald's

Name one, try every country in Western Europe, thro in Australia, New Zealand and if I thought for awhile longer I could name a few more.
Your fucking joking,right.

Don't include Ireland in that every country in Western Europe list, Paul. The Irish are one of the largest contingents among illegal aliens.

Well maybe F, they reckon theres 300,000 Irish illegals in the US, and I wasnt including Ireland anyway, theres better places in Europe to live than here, never mind in the world.

The other countries named are much more difficult to get into, some by law, some by physical location. How many illegal aliens does New Zealand have to contend with annually?

Well maybe F, they reckon theres 300,000 Irish illegals in the US, and I wasnt including Ireland anyway, theres better places in Europe to live than here, never mind in the world.
if i was in the market for something completely different from the U.S., but not a 3rd world country, Eire is the 1st place i'd look.

The other countries named are much more difficult to get into, some by law, some by physical location. How many illegal aliens does New Zealand have to contend with annually?
off rafts, or just tourists that don't leave?

What are you joking or something, theres countrys with much better lifestyles than the US out there, believe me.

Name one, that is not emulating the USA, or does not have citizens willing to die to get into the US.

Now THAt is a scary ideology............

""The USA is so perfect and so desirable that the people of every other nation in the world are willing to die to get into it!""

Now THAt is a scary ideology............

""The USA is so perfect and so desirable that the people of every other nation in the world are willing to die to get into it!""
it might not be, but how many people do you hear about walking across the AZ desert to sneak into Mexico, or float across the Straits of Florida to try to get to Cuba?

OK Crusty, your not joking. I will give credit were its due. The USA as a concept is the best country on the planet, and to this day is a shining light to millions of people, but youll find that the majority of immigrants these days come from third world countrys,they have replaced the poor and persecuted of Europe, as that continent has changed drastically in the last 30-40 years, but as for lifestyles, like I said, theres a lot of better places to live.

Yes, Paul, there are a few countries that would be nice to live in, but none of them are better than than the US. Europe has finally woke up. It won't be long before they adopt a single constitution for the entire EU. If they arn't emulating the US, what do you call it?

Believe me Crusty theres a lot of places out there better than the US to live, what with the culture and history that Europe has,something that the US being a new world nation cant compete with, the lower crime rates, stricter gun laws, right for a EU Citizen to live and work in any EU nation without all the paper work, cost of living is higher, granted.
Yes, I agree, the new constitution is in the American style,tho not too many keen on it, especially UK,
I would sugest the US moulds its way of life on European lifestyles more than the other way around, as it was Europeans and they're decendants who forge your nation.

Illegals have found another excuse for not not being held accountable for breaking the law: children.
Well, tough luck. They should have considered that before breaking our laws.
SEND THEM ALL BACK to their country of origin, minor children as well.:upyours:

Assuming the children were born in America, they're U.S. citizens and living here legally.

Europe has finally woke up. It won't be long before they adopt a single constitution for the entire EU. If they arn't emulating the US, what do you call it?

What the....?!?!?!

It's hard to imagine someone more misinformed on the topic of the creation of a European Union.

What they are doing in uniting the European nations is about as FAR away from from "emulating the US" as is possible.

It's called -- *banding together so as to have a better chance to compete with the USA economically*.

Believe me Crusty theres a lot of places out there better than the US to live, what with the culture and history that Europe has,something that the US being a new world nation cant compete with, the lower crime rates, stricter gun laws, right for a EU Citizen to live and work in any EU nation without all the paper work, cost of living is higher, granted.
Yes, I agree, the new constitution is in the American style,tho not too many keen on it, especially UK,
I would suggest the US molds its way of life on European lifestyles more than the other way around, as it was Europeans and they're descendants who forge your nation.

I don't know about "lower crime rates." I think it more "less political interested in the reporting of crimes." Try to report a crime in Amsterdam; they don't want you to so as to keep their crime rate low. I ran into the same thing in Copenhagen and Aachen.

The idea that Europe has a better culture than America is nonsense. The state-supported cultural institutions are generally fat and lazy and not willing to do anything really different. The U.S. is pretty much the center of culture now--not just popular culture but also the serious, lasting stuff. Once you've seen an old castle you've seen an old castle.

I do agree that there are better places to live, but not in most of Europe. Most of Europe in my experience is a lot worse of a place to live, given poorer roads and other infrastructure, sub-American level housing, and a higher general level of rudeness.

Illegals have found another excuse for not not being held accountable for breaking the law: children.
Well, tough luck. They should have considered that before breaking our laws.
SEND THEM ALL BACK to their country of origin, minor children as well.:upyours:

Just out of curiosity Crusty, assuming that your citizenship is due to your being born here, what would you do to change the law and how would it affect you?

The United States of America, the country that the rest of the world wants to emulate, or occupy.

I was going to leave this alone but this kind of attitude irritates the hell out of me. Some people actually are quite content where they live and have ZERO desire to join you, your Hollywood glitz, your racial problems, your "guns for all" mentality and most of all, your attitude of "WE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH THAT MATTER."

That may come as a shock to you, but try to cope. :)

I was going to leave this alone but this kind of attitude irritates the hell out of me.

That is why he posted it; it is best usually to leave Trolls under their bridges, but I understand.

Without getting into the 'my country's better than your country' debate, I'd like to add something to this discussion about illegals 'hiding behind their children.'

I was once involved in a mass-hiring project in Miami (kitchen workers) and we had a LOT of Haitian applicants. In talking with the restaurant managers we were hiring for, they said the biggest problem they faced with Haitians was that they often used their children or grandchildren's social security numbers to get jobs. Since most of them chose their own American names (nearly ALL the women were named ROSE), it was next to impossible to tell who was a citizen with a valid SS# and who wasn't.

Haven't heard of the Mexican immigrants pulling the same trick, but that's one of the pitfalls of granting citizenship to any child born in this country. Instant SS# for the family.

SMW

They often used their children or grandchildren's social security numbers to get jobs.
SMW

First, they were working, not living off the dole, etc.

Second, this means they paid into the S.S. system but would never collect.

Sounds profitable for Uncle Sam.

Agreed, Thislin. But it does kinda put a kink in the system of identifying illegals thru employers. And of course, the Vietnamese are another group who are hard to keep track of since so many of them have the same last name (Nyugen). You might hire one... but his brother shows up for work!

That is why he posted it; it is best usually to leave Trolls under their bridges, but I understand.
Yeah, you're right...I took the bait even though I knew it was poison... Oh well, back to my French ground coffee and perhaps an English breakfast sausage, with Vienna toast and Chilean tomatoes and Canadian eggs. Well truthfully the sausage is tofu... hehe...

And of course, the Vietnamese are another group who are hard to keep track of since so many of them have the same last name (Nyugen). You might hire one... but his brother shows up for work!

It's funny--I can't think of anyone here named Nyugen or anything similar.

You have to understand that a job in Vietnam is usually deemed a family business. For example, I have a cook and a housekeeper who come in every day, but often enough it is a sister or some other relative. They also bring the kids to play in the back yard.

I think you can see that there are benefits to the employer in that kind of attitude.

Must be another "Americanization" like Rose for Haitians.

I made an appt with a new eye doctor recently and was told on the phone his name was Steve Winn (like the guy who owns most of Las Vegas). I remember making some comment about the name to the appt. lady, but she didn't seem to get it. I understood when I walked into their office and met Dr. Stephen Nyugen.

I can see the benefit of having household employees who keep it 'all in the family' and in fact, enjoy the same sort of working relationship with my yardman... who's Mexican. He brings a truckload of his family 'helpers' and is often done with my large yard in less than 15 minutes. He's been in my employ for over 8 years now.

No one should ever say illegal aliens are LAZY. At least that's never been my contention.

Yeah, you're right...I took the bait even though I knew it was poison... Oh well, back to my French ground coffee and perhaps an English breakfast sausage, with Vienna toast and Chilean tomatoes and Canadian eggs. Well truthfully the sausage is tofu... hehe...

Ah, and I just finished a supper of curried mushrooms (four or five types--I'm not sure) with new potatoes and carrots and baby onions, accompanied with beet and tofu soup, an ear of fresh corn, and a plate of vermicelli with steamed tomatoes and garlic. My beverage was iced green tea with ginger (a pitcher of it), and in about an hour they will bring me some fruit and cheese (it will probably be dragon fruit--that is what I asked for--depending on if they found a good one today).

American food is better than Dutch or English food, but nowhere near what Asian and European cuisine put together can achieve.

Once in Amsterdam I decided to see what Dutch food might be, but could find no such restaurant (in a city teeming with restaurants of every cuisine one can imagine). When I asked, I got, "Why would anyone want to eat that?"

Ah Thislin, I envy your having a cook who would make such a meal for you. I will google dragon fruit. Although I have a fondness for some heavy meat and potatoes, it no longer likes me and thus I only eat it when we go out which we are doing less and less. Truthfully even then, the taste is not so good any more. Lighter fare eaten more frequently is really the way to go. I could easily live on Asian and European food. Luckily for me, it is easy to aquire here in Canada. Now I just need to get a cook. :)

Okay, sorry guys for the thread interuption... my bad...

Just out of curiosity Crusty, assuming that your citizenship is due to your being born here, what would you do to change the law and how would it affect you?

There is no need to change the law, just eenforce those that are already on the books. Such enforcement will cut the crime rate, in the southwest, buy 20 to 30%. Thats enough effect for me.

If their children are born here then they are American citizens. If you want to change that you need to get the Constitution amended. Good luck with that.

News media, now, crying crocodile tears because arresting illegal aliens splits up families.
Arresting any criminal, nearly always, results in the separation of a family. Would they rather we ignor all laws, to prevent such ghastly results?

OK, sorry guys for the thread interuption... my bad...

I would rather talk about this than argue with people who make silly and unsupported assertions (like dropping the crime rate if you remove the illegal aliens--it is a standard theme among bigots that people different from whatever they happen to be are where criminals come from).

There is a lot of well-trained culinary talent in HCMC looking for work--the population here is well educated but seriously underemployed.

A dragonfruit is about the size of a large grapefruit. The exterior is off-putting (a pink red with all sorts of protrusions), but cut one in half and you have a white fruit with lots or really tiny seeds (so small you just eat them--they add to the experience). The taste is not unlike Kiwi, but there is a lot more to one and here it is much cheaper.

Fruit here is bought from little old ladies who have small shops all over the place. Most of the fruit you see is strange (although you can get strawberries and apples and cherries and so on), and actually rather scary looking. You need someone to introduce you to each and show you how to select and handle them. There is always something new to me (I mean there must be hundreds of different fruits).

Unless you are really strong willed, however, avoid durian. It is a rare Westerner (and not me) who can get past the smell.

people who make silly and unsupported assertions (like dropping the crime rate if you remove the illegal aliens--it is a standard theme among bigots that people different from whatever they happen to be are where criminals come from).

I won't go so far as to claim that "Removing illegal aliens from our society will result in a lower overall crime rate," but there's a lot of documentation to support that idea.

Justice Dept. Figures on Incarcerated Illegals

One of the more popular claims by illegal immigration proponents is that those who enter the U.S. by breaking the law are invariably "hard-working" and "law-abiding" once they get here. That argument, however, has one major flaw. According to Justice Department statistics and the analysis of immigration experts, the "law-abiding" claim often isn't true.

As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population, creating a massive criminal subculture that strains state budgets and creates a nightmare for local police forces."

Citing an Urban Institute study, director of research for the Center for Immigration Studies Steven Camorata noted in 2004: "Roughly 17 percent of the prison population at the federal level are illegal aliens. That's a huge number since illegal aliens only account for about 3 percent of the total population."

Former California Gov. Pete Wilson places the percentage of illegal aliens in U.S. prisons even higher. In 2001, he told Fox News "One in five in our prison population were illegal immigrants who had been convicted of a felony after entering the country illegally."

The Federation for American Immigration Reform also turned to the Justice Department to get statistics on criminal aliens. They report:

"In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones [including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings].

"In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens [who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges]."

Up to a third of the U.S. federal prison population is composed of non-citizens, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics - but not all non-citizen prison inmates are illegal aliens.

As to the "hard-working" claim, CIS notes: "The proportion of immigrant-headed households using at least one major welfare program is 24.5 percent compared to 16.3 percent for native households."

Investor's Business Daily concurs: "Once [illegals] get here, they are 50 percent more likely to be on welfare than citizens." --NewsMax (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml)

Now, what were you saying about bigots? :rolleyes:

There is a lot of well-trained culinary talent in HCMC looking for work--the population here is well educated but seriously underemployed. May as well also use this thread as an example of other cultures...so...why are they well educated AND underemployed?


A dragonfruit is about the size of a large grapefruit. The exterior is off-putting (a pink red with all sorts of protrusions), but cut one in half and you have a white fruit with lots or really tiny seeds (so small you just eat them--they add to the experience). The taste is not unlike Kiwi, but there is a lot more to one and here it is much cheaper. I checked it out here today when we hit the market. It is a pretty pink/red colour, with bumps all over it. It was $6.99 a pound. Seemed expensive but something we both decided we would try after asking you....should it feel soft or hard when purchasing... it was pretty soft...so I wasn't sure. We're always up for something different. Although last week we tried some Caribbean fruit that tasted hard and salty...we dumped it... it tasted icky.

I don't really like fruit so thus we always look for something a tad on the exotic side... I force apples and oranges but I would rather eat veggies than fruit.

Durian sounds nasty. I think smell is an important addition to taste...I didn't notice it today in the fruit dept. So I probably don't have access anyway. Maybe we can start a food thread in chat since I am interested in new ideas?

There is no need to change the law, just eenforce those that are already on the books. Such enforcement will cut the crime rate, in the southwest, buy 20 to 30%. Thats enough effect for me.

As has been pointed out, you don't want the children of illegal aliens to be citizens. That would require changing the law. It would not require amending the Constitution as someone suggested, but you'd have to get Congress to change the laws. Presumably this would remove the automatic citizenship granted to you when you're born here, so how would you change the law, and how would that affect your citizenship and mine? Like most Americans, I'm only a citizen by birth; I took no test.

Like most Americans, I'm only a citizen by birth; I took no test.
but were either of your parents natural born citizens?....just removing the provision of being born in the U.S. would serve his end.

not that it would effect anyone that is already a citizen...retroactive laws are already verboten.

As has been pointed out, you don't want the children of illegal aliens to be citizens. That would require changing the law. It would not require amending the Constitution as someone suggested, but you'd have to get Congress to change the laws. Presumably this would remove the automatic citizenship granted to you when you're born here, so how would you change the law, and how would that affect your citizenship and mine? Like most Americans, I'm only a citizen by birth; I took no test.

Who said I don't want children of illegals to be citizens? I didn't, because I don't care if they are or not. The parents are illegal, if caught, they should be deported. If the press, and or liberals, don't want the family split, then send the minor children with the parents. If the children want to stay, or the parents want to leave them, fine, they can stay. I don,t care one way or another. However, the children are not an excuse to release the illegal alien parents. They broke the law, deport them.

The idea of birthright citizenship needs to change. Nobody is eligible for citizenship until they have served the country in one form or another for a period of 2-3 years following high school. That service could be met though the military or some reincarnated form of the CCC or WPC. Spend those years rebuilding or maintaining the infrastructure of the country or serving in the military. Credit for further schooling could be provided, in a similar fashioin to the current and past G.I. Bills. Refusing service would mean giving up citizenship rights in the country and possible deportation.

May as well also use this thread as an example of other cultures...so...why are they well educated AND underemployed?
That is an extremely good question, although all I can offer are some informed possibilities.

One thing is clear, the population does not suffer from the youth orientation and anti-intellectualism found in the U.S. Teachers get the most honorific pronouns ("you" has more than fifty ways of being said) and have high status. Elders are just not argued with, either.

Another thing is that the present Vietnamese writing system was introduced under French aegis around 1900, and was then phonetic, so it is very close to being phonetic now. As a result learning to read and write is much easier.

Another thing is that, beyond basic literacy and numeracy, the government does not waste money educating those who do not learn. The subsidies are high for good students, but many have to pay full fare. They end up getting vocational rather than intellectual instruction in hundreds of small private schools (usually attached to a business--such as auto repair instruction attached to an auto repair shop). This seems undemocratic, but it is a more efficient use of limited funds.

The government actually doesn't spend much on schools. They are not fancy and are devoid of modern equipment. However, classes are long and with few vacations and holidays (very few) and the students are disciplined and obedient, and are taught to memorize and recite much more than are U.S. students.

Much can be laid to the Confucian ethic, which is ubiquitous here and forms the unnoticed foundation assumptions of most thinking. This includes a huge emphasis on learning--it has high prestige and all parents and neighborhoods push it.

As for the underemployment, the population is young. I think the average age is in the teens. As a result an educated population enters a work force devoid of jobs. This is made worse by improving productivity in the countryside, resulting in a substantial flow of people into the cities (mainly HCMC, which has a legal population of about seven million and an illegal population significantly larger than that--to move you need government permission, but this is essentially unenforceable).

So the vast majority work in small family businesses (the population is very entrepreneurial), helping out here and there and getting by, but not really doing anything essential. This is underemployment, and is the pool of labor being tapped that makes the 10% or so growth rates possible (if the U.S. were to grow that fast, the labor market would cause an inflationary cost push and an ensuing recession since the U.S. functions close to full employment most of the time).

About dragonfruit, within reasonable bounds, the softer it is the sweeter it will be. Chop it in half lengthwise and then eat the fruit with a spoon. Be careful though, it has an excellent anti-constipation effect.